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ian maybury
10-25-2015, 5:57 PM
So the first thread was locked, sanitised and most of the comments deleted - again without explanation.

Is that to be taken as it seems?

eugene thomas
10-25-2015, 6:05 PM
Kind of how it goes in here but I get enough good info to put up with.

Matt Day
10-25-2015, 6:09 PM
I think the leash is way too tight, especially lately. I would like there to be some kind of democracy and place to discuss these things, rather than just delete them.

I understand when things get out of hand though, and it helps to tread lightly and not stir the pot, but civil discussion should be tolerated.

This thread will be gone in the next 10 minutes.

Larry Frank
10-25-2015, 6:26 PM
I do not want to be a moderator as it is a tough job. Normally, the mods go out of their way to take care of issues. Recently, they went a long ways to explain things in several lengthy posts.

My suggestion, send a pm to the moderators and ask for some information on the post. I hope you did that before starting this thread.

Lee Schierer
10-25-2015, 6:56 PM
Guys, this site is not a democracy. It is privately owned. The owner has final say on everything. Some members choose to contribute toward the costs to operate the site and they are granted contributor privileges that open up a couple of boards for them and allow them to turn off the ads. The site is also supported by advertisers. There are terms of service (TOS) and all users must abide by them. There is a link for the TOS at the bottom of each page. Certain topics are strictly forbidden (religion and politics) and others though not forbidden have a bad reputation for spiraling out of control quickly and usually get shut down or moved when they do. Moderators are all volunteers. Moderators do not have to offer explanations though some do when posts are edited, moved, locked, deleted etc. I suggest if you want to know why one of your posts was edited you contact the moderator(s) via PM and I'm sure most will respond. Moderators for particular boards are listed near the bottom of most board front pages, though any moderator can edit any board, if necessary.

paul cottingham
10-25-2015, 7:44 PM
You are not wrong. A lot of good people have left this place because of the often arbitrary and capricious way the mods operate here. I have asked for explanations and been ignored, and have been promised all kinds of things by mods (and Keith) in the way of explanations and have not received anything. I have essentially left, (truly, not much of a loss, of course, as i have been told) as have a lot of very talented and generous people. The place has lost a lot of good, talented folk as a result of this, and no one seems willing to even admit it is even a problem.

it is not a democracy, true. I have argued that myself several times. But it is a community. And communities will not survive this kind of nonsense.

charlie knighton
10-25-2015, 7:52 PM
and I thought it was just my posts........I wonder if we are a majority or just the 1%

Scott Shepherd
10-25-2015, 7:56 PM
For the most part, 99% of the work done by moderators is appreciated and accepted. We do things to try and keep the place organized and tidy. Do we make mistakes? Sure. I don't think someone moving your post to a different section qualifies as heavy handed moderation and censorship.

You can't make everyone happy, all the time, it's just not possible, but again, 99% of what we do daily isn't ever mentioned and seldom appreciated publicly.

Frederick Skelly
10-25-2015, 8:04 PM
I can't say whether the editing and deletion has been increasing lately, but I agree that the reactions to it have DEFINITELY increased. I'm not trying to pass judgement - just making an observation.

Speaking personally, I've always found the Mods here to be reasonable. The one and only time I had real beef with how a Mod edited my thread, I sent him a polite note expressing my concern and he graciously corrected it immediately.

These folks work for free and it seems to be a thankless job. I can live with an occaisional edit or deletion. (YMMV of course.)

Respectfully,
Fred

Steve Schlumpf
10-25-2015, 8:07 PM
Ian - I am a moderator for the Turning Forum and have to admit - I have no idea which thread you are talking about - but also understand that if one of my fellow moderators edited a thread - there was a valid reason. Lee brings up a very good point - for everyone reading this - if you have a question about a thread, PM the moderator assigned to that forum. If for some reason you do not get a response, then PM me and I'll do what I can to find out what is going on. You may not agree with my answer but I will tell you the truth.

For everyone else - what is it with all this piling on when it comes to moderators performing their duties? You know the TOS and we have all volunteered to help keep the site running with minimal disruption due to spammers, irate rants and anything else that disturbs the community. I would think that everyone - especially Contributors - would appreciate the efforts that we go through behind the scenes to minimize conflicts. I have to admit, I am a little taken aback when I continually see this 'us vs them' mentality when it comes to keeping this site user friendly.

Moderators are not here to make your life harder - we are here to simple enforce the rules - the very rules everyone here agreed to when joining the site.

charlie knighton
10-25-2015, 8:23 PM
must be that we are getting ready for elections and we are getting all these telephone calls that they say are surveys but it would be nice to contribute but also answer on a scale of 10 of which 1 is strongly agree.......and the cruise lines with a free trip.......but when we actually post something we are interested in saying its deleted......annoying the first time, 2nd time....grrrrr.......3rd time I pm you Steve......finally decide that its must be "Jack" fault and go get the fly swatter and go outside looking for some stink bugs.......I have been hell on these stink bugs........anybody found any use in those stink ???????????bugs

Scott Shepherd
10-25-2015, 8:41 PM
Charlie, how you would propose handling it when someone posts something that's not allowed, then 10 people comment on that thread? Should we delete the thread, them PM every single person that posted on it and tell them we're sorry, but their posts we deleted from a thread that wasn't supposed to be there in the first place?

I can tell you from a moderator standpoint, the last month has been dead quiet. I haven't heard or seen any moderators having any issues. Now it's resurfaced like there is a major problem going on.

In the TOS, again, which everyone can see and has agreed to, it says clearly that moderation can and will be done to comply with the TOS and you may or may not be notified.

Just for reference, we had a new person posting questions in the tech support area instead of the forum it should have been in. I moved it, sent a PM telling him I moved it and why. A few days later, he posts another general question, again, in Tech Support, I moved it, PM him and tell him why, and where he should post. I explain he's posting in the tech support for the forum area. A couple more days go by, he posts in the Tech Support forum. I moved it and didn't PM him. I don't consider that out of line.

Ian Moone
10-25-2015, 8:54 PM
I guess i find it amusing, a off topic thread I contributed too (simple physics question) was ended by a mod for reasons I am at a loss to understand.
What amusing is that - the thread even tho closed still shows in the list of "hottest threads" a week or two later.....
The "best threads" with the most contributors even tho locked are still attracting the most views etc to remain for weeks in the "hottest threads" collections?.
Just me I guess - I find it kinda ironic.
If the site runs ads that help fund it and get paid on click thru's etc - locking your hottest threads arbitrarily would seem counter intuitive in that it cuts off your best revenue raisers?.
That said - I had nothing left to contribute to it anyway so it's no biggee to me - just that I find it amusing / ironic and unexplained at to why closed is all.
Maybe the electrons were too expensive for that thread. :D

charlie knighton
10-25-2015, 9:09 PM
new person posting questions in the tech support area instead of the forum it should have been in. I moved it, sent a PM telling him I moved it and why.

a new person most likely has not found the pm feature yet.....probably thinks any question should go to tech support.......


posts something that's not allowed, then 10 people comment on that thread offer them a free fly swatter (stink bug swatter) but ask for shipping cost reburshment.......10 people commented on it before yall deleted it.....sounds like this bunch sits in the back of the sunday school classroom

Scott Shepherd
10-25-2015, 9:46 PM
.......10 people commented on it before yall deleted it.....sounds like this bunch sits in the back of the sunday school classroom

Surely that can't be the case, because we are accused of sitting in waiting to delete important, on point topics all the time ;)


Ian, what you didn't see were the repeated replies that caused it to get locked. Just because you didn't see the reasons it got deleted doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Duane Meadows
10-25-2015, 10:46 PM
Thanks Moderators for the mostly thankless job you do. With all the flak you have been getting lately, thought a kind word is over due!

paul cottingham
10-25-2015, 10:57 PM
As an aside, i think it is quiet around here cause a lot of folks have left. Of course, what the heck do i know...

ian maybury
10-25-2015, 11:09 PM
Sorry - finger trouble...

Scott Shepherd
10-25-2015, 11:33 PM
As an aside, i think it is quiet around here cause a lot of folks have left. Of course, what the hell do i know...

Hi Paul, glad to see you around. I think about 10 people left, at the same time, 100's have been approved. I, personally, miss a number of those who left, but there's nothing I can do about it. I just try and moderate with respect and I know I'm not alone in that. We have some great moderators here.

Bruce Page
10-25-2015, 11:42 PM
I guess I'm to blame here. A member asked why his electrical wiring question on a jointer motor was moved to the Workshops forum. I looked into it and moved it back into GW&PT. I left a message in the thread saying that I didn't know why it was moved, (we are all human here) and that it was back. I checked back a few hours later and found a thank you from the OP followed by 4 comments/rants about over moderation. I deleted the 4 posts and closed the thread. I am sorry that I didn't PM the 4 offended members to explain my actions, I spent the day with my son & family. I thought my reasoning would be self evident.

Paul McGaha
10-26-2015, 12:14 AM
Hi Paul, glad to see you around. I think about 10 people left, at the same time, 100's have been approved. I, personally, miss a number of those who left, but there's nothing I can do about it. I just try and moderate with respect and I know I'm not alone in that. We have some great moderators here.

Yes, some great moderators here. I think the positive attitude the Creek has is very appealing to the members.

PHM

paul cottingham
10-26-2015, 1:37 AM
Hi Paul, glad to see you around. I think about 10 people left, at the same time, 100's have been approved. I, personally, miss a number of those who left, but there's nothing I can do about it. I just try and moderate with respect and I know I'm not alone in that. We have some great moderators here.

Yes, and some extremely heavy handed ones, and they are the problem. I appreciate the greeting, Scott, but it was a fluke i was here. I am pretty well gone, now. The heavy handed moderators (and the lack of any explanations or accountability) have done their thing. If I want to take crap like i have from some of them, i would spend more time with my in-laws.

Ole Anderson
10-26-2015, 8:42 AM
As an aside, i think it is quiet around here cause a lot of folks have left. Of course, what the hell do i know...

So Paul, in the face of the long standing sticky about profanity or implied profanity, are you just pushing buttons to see what happens?

Those that get worked up about simply moving a post, well...

Thanks mods, I think you are doing a great job.

Matt Krusen
10-26-2015, 9:52 AM
This is just stupid. Enjoy the site for what it is. Get some good info and go build something.

Scott Shepherd
10-26-2015, 10:23 AM
I would note that the 10 or so would probably be called heavyweights in the grand scale of things, whose knowledge and contributions will never get to the hundreds that recently signed up.



I don't disagree with that Kent. I hate to see some of those people go. My point was, that I was talked to, and about horribly. Should I have left? Should I have kicked the person that was saying bad things to me? Did I ask for his account to be removed? No, I didn't. Look, there are all different personalities in the world, and here as well. Some times personalities clash and some people just don't get along. That's life. If I quit something I was passionate about every time I ran into a conflicting personality that said something offensive to me, I'd be sitting in a room by myself 24 hours a day.

We should be able to get past our differences and share the things we have in common rather than constantly rehash the things we don't agree on.

Were mistakes made in the past. Absolutely. Can we unring the bell? Nope. What's next? Discuss it for the next 4 years, or live in reality where those people are gone and not coming back? I'd love to have them back. But there's nothing I can do to make that happen. That's why my (and others) focus is on the present and how we treat people when moderating today.

Keith Outten
10-26-2015, 11:54 AM
Gentlemen,

This topic has been discussed so many times here that I'm sure if you search our archives you will find the same exact topic has been hashed over a hundred times.

People join and people leave here every day, obviously more join than leave since our numbers have continued to grow for almost 13 years. The vast majority our this Community are pleased with how we manage our Forums, this is the primary reason that we rarely adjust any of the rules here. The discussions here are dynamic based on a wide variety of content and personalities which makes the job of managing this site a daily challenge and we do the best we can to be as consistent and fair as possible. I really don't think anyone can expect more from our Staff as they are all volunteers and they donate a lot of their personal time here serving this Community that takes away from their woodworking and shop time...but they do it because it needs to be done and they care about this Community.

None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes. We do count on the fact that a Friendly Community of people will be forgiving of mistakes made on either side. Concerning edits or changes being made without notification I am probably the worst offender. We all try to let people know when a post or thread has been edited or removed "BUT" there are over 96,000 registered Members here and five times that many visitors. The workload here can be unbelievable most days so we all have to manage our time the best we can. Answering Private Messages internally and email from those who are not registered Members is a mountain to climb just about every day here. Honestly there are many requests that never get answered but we do the best we can to support a Community based primarily on free access with a very small budget and just a hand full of volunteers.

Scott Shepherd
10-26-2015, 12:02 PM
It's been bugging me a little to see this thread because it's the opposite of what I feel like is happening. I pulled up one of the moderator reports and asked for the threads deleted in the last 7 days and got a whopping 7 posts, 4 of them were deleted from the same thread, when a conversation took a bad turn. So 3 posts deleted in 7 days? That hardly seems like "heavy handed" moderation going on.

There were more posts deleted by users than moderators in that same time period.

Just a fact that should probably out there. And of the 3 that were deleted 1 of them was someone advertising their own services.

Keith Outten
10-26-2015, 12:15 PM
I just checked our registration statistics, we average between 40 to 60 new registrations per day seven days per week and approximately 20 to 50 are approved per day. These numbers increase dramatically depending on the season but this is an average period right now. During growth spurts in the past I have had to review up to 250 new registrations per day for months.

Why are so many registrations rejected? There are many reasons for new registrations being rejected, not using a real name, nasty usernames, spammers, etc. The email we receive on a daily basis often has language that you would not believe, not all woodworkers are friendly. When we receive email that is full of foul language and personal threats we delete them right away as you would expect.
.

paul cottingham
10-26-2015, 1:16 PM
So Paul, in the face of the long standing sticky about profanity or implied profanity, are you just pushing buttons to see what happens?

Those that get worked up about simply moving a post, well...

Thanks mods, I think you are doing a great job.

There, fixed the offending word (one which even my pastor wouldn't find objectionable in church.)

paul cottingham
10-26-2015, 1:22 PM
Gentlemen,

This topic has been discussed so many times here that I'm sure if you search our archives you will find the same exact topic has been hashed over a hundred times.

People join and people leave here every day, obviously more join than leave since our numbers have continued to grow for almost 13 years. The vast majority our this Community are pleased with how we manage our Forums, this is the primary reason that we rarely adjust any of the rules here. The discussions here are dynamic based on a wide variety of content and personalities which makes the job of managing this site a daily challenge and we do the best we can to be as consistent and fair as possible. I really don't think anyone can expect more from our Staff as they are all volunteers and they donate a lot of their personal time here serving this Community that takes away from their woodworking and shop time...but they do it because it needs to be done and they care about this Community.

None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes. We do count on the fact that a Friendly Community of people will be forgiving of mistakes made on either side. Concerning edits or changes being made without notification I am probably the worst offender. We all try to let people know when a post or thread has been edited or removed "BUT" there are over 96,000 registered Members here and five times that many visitors. The workload here can be unbelievable most days so we all have to manage our time the best we can. Answering Private Messages internally and email from those who are not registered Members is a mountain to climb just about every day here. Honestly there are many requests that never get answered but we do the best we can to support a Community based primarily on free access with a very small budget and just a hand full of volunteers.

Sounds like a numbers game without regard to the quality of the people who left.

paul cottingham
10-26-2015, 1:28 PM
I just checked our registration statistics, we average between 40 to 60 new registrations per day seven days per week and approximately 20 to 50 are approved per day. These numbers increase dramatically depending on the season but this is an average period right now. During growth spurts in the past I have had to review up to 250 new registrations per day for months.

Why are so many registrations rejected? There are many reasons for new registrations being rejected, not using a real name, nasty usernames, spammers, etc. The email we receive on a daily basis often has language that you would not believe, not all woodworkers are friendly. When we receive email that is full of foul language and personal threats we delete them right away as you would expect.
.

One observation. Its pretty offensive to keep hearing "oh well, who cares if all these super knowledgable people have left cause of how the mods treated them, numbers are up!"

Scott Shepherd
10-26-2015, 1:34 PM
Sounds like a numbers game without regard to the quality of the people who left.

Or, it just equally be said that the people who left didn't care about it either, since they left. You don't change things for the better by leaving when things get tough. You stick in there, work through it, and eventually it becomes a point in time where people are forgiven for their mistakes.

I don't know who left, other than 3 or 4 of them. I know one that left had a bad habit of insulting people publicly. He was warned about it no less than 1/2 a dozen times and even given suspensions because of it. Yet he kept coming back, even after all of that, and doing the exact same thing. He had a lot of knowledge as well. So where's his responsibility in this? None?

Like I said, we can't unring the bell. Would we like for those with years of experience to return? Sure. Are they missed? Sure. However, there's nothing we can do to make them return, other than show our actions now, and in the future of it being a fair place. Look at my statistics for the last week. How anyone can look at those numbers and say that the moderators are "heavy handed" is beyond me. It's just not accurate.

Will the spot that with knowledge filled get filled by someone else who hasn't even found SMC yet? Probably so. Does that mean it's a numbers game? I don't think so.

Seriously, I don't know how to fix something that happened 2 months ago.

Scott Shepherd
10-26-2015, 2:10 PM
Kent, that's just not an accurate statement, I have been in contact with you and Paul both privately, explaining the things we were trying to correct and the changes that were made. To say that none of that has been communicated isn't accurate.

Again, show me the evidence from "heavy handed" moderation in the last week. It's just not there. The numbers aren't there. Now, if the numbers were 10 posts a day, then I'd think we need to look at it. However, when it's really 2 posts in one week, come on. Be fair about it.

You're still here. Contribute and make it a better place. That's how you fix it. You rise above the issues for the greater good of being able to help someone else that needs help with knowledge we have.

No response given at this point is going to change anything. I can tell you with 100% certainty that things have changed a great deal in the moderators staff. We are showing through our actions. Actions like 2 posts in a week deleted? Then getting called out for being heavy handed? I don't know how else to prove it.

Chris Padilla
10-26-2015, 2:48 PM
So I'll tell you EXACTLY what sparked this latest round of heavy-handed Moderation accusations.

Here is a thread about a jointer motor wiring: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?236677&p=2481707

IMO and as I've interpreted and understood the rules on such topics (being electrical in nature), it belongs in the Workshop Forum. So I moved it from the GWW/PT Forum.

When I move threads to what I consider a more appropriate forum, I always leave a 1 day expiring redirect.

The [OP] of that thread then started another thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?236784-Moderators wondering why it was moved. He didn't check back for the thread within 24 hours (1 day) and so the redirect was already gone. It took him some work to find it again.

The thread was subsequently moved back to the GWW/PT Forum. Then the piling on started about heavy-handed moderation and all 4 of those posts were deleted and the thread closed.

That prompted another thread...this one that I'm posting in.

I and another mod also received a PM regarding the original thread and consistency. He is correct about asking for consistency. Two mods have interpreted the appropriate place for the original thread to be two different locations. See. We are human, too. We all interpret things differently...even among the mods. We are now hashing things out in the mod forum to see if we can provide more clarity for ourselves and thus for the valued folks here at Saw Mill Creek.

As to the events of two months ago, two mods left moderator status. They left of their own accord. They were not asked to leave. They are still here on the Creek and as far as I've seen, they still participate. Many things were discussed during that turbulent week and changes were made. There was a shuffling of the guard and some new rules (or a rule) put in place. I'm not privy to everything that happened through PMs but at the end of the day, some folks chose to leave for their own reasons.

I'm not sure what more some of you want. You don't have to LIKE the new rule(s), but you don't get to keep dragging them out and piling on each time some one is unhappy about how we handled something. Be happy that we are even leaving threads like this open. In the past, anytime anyone questioned a moderator's actions, it was taken down fast. Now we are leaving them up for (hopefully) constructive critical discussion. We learn and change, too.

I just laid bare the exact events of what happened. So please tell me how YOU would have handled it? What could I have done better? What can we learn from this recent event? What exactly about this event was heavy-handed? Should I have left a 1 week expiring redirect? Should I have PM'ed the [OP] when I moved his post? I'm much like Keith, I tend to NOT PM folks...I don't have time. 99% of the time, it usually isn't a big deal. I like being a moderator to help the forum and help people but it is not my most favorite thing to do on the Creek. I like to build things and create threads about them. I like to joke and have a good time as rapports are built up with folks. I like to read solutions that experienced people post about and learn right along with them. But mostly, I really enjoy helping people and providing what few nuggets of wisdom and some experience I have. Being a moderator is an extension of that.

I didn't move that post because I have the power to move it and I get off on controlling people and love my 'anointed' status. I moved it because I felt that it would do better to get that person the help he was seeking and THAT is what I like doing. The fact that the GWW/PT forum is the most active forum and has the most eyes and most posts and most everything is both good AND bad sometimes. Sometimes moving a post to a bit slower forum can help things. Sometimes a more active forum rolls threads to the second page so quickly, not many people see it.

We are not mad, power hungry people here. Believe me, there are usually good reasons we do things they way we do them. I'd LOVE for some of you to walk a mile in our shoes and really see what it is all about. We will never please everyone...it is futile. We do try to learn and adjust and I believe we are doing that.

paul cottingham
10-26-2015, 3:05 PM
I dont think you get the point. The heavyhandedness of the event we are talking of left a great big scar on this community. The fact that absolutely no one made a public statement about itcreated an awful amount if chaos, and made the Mods (with a few notable exceptions) seem indifferent to anything but their duties, as hard as they are; not the results of their actions.

im pretty sure this will be deleted, im even pretty sure who will do it.

Chris Padilla
10-26-2015, 3:08 PM
Let's focus on this one for right now, Paul, and answer some of my questions. Thank you.

Scott Donley
10-26-2015, 3:10 PM
Thanks for posting Chris, some how when I saw this thread I knew you were at the bottom of it. :)

Julie Moriarty
10-26-2015, 3:31 PM
I used to own a very active website with a forum. The forum got most of the activity. The forum was free, as was access to the website. I paid for everything and spent over 20 hours a week to keep it going. Still, I received criticism and even demands from people and on occasion I had to remind them who was in charge. Some backed off and understood. Some threatened to leave. To those I would say, "There's the door." I was happy to see them go but, much to my disappointment, almost none did.

After I sold the website, I found myself accepting moderator positions on other forums. I was crazy enough to accept. It's a thankless job. You're expected to keep everyone happy even though that's just not possible.

I say this because I know what it's like to be on the other side. And knowing this, I accept I am here as a guest. If I break the rules, I may be asked to leave and I will leave if asked. After all, this is not my house.

paul cottingham
10-26-2015, 3:35 PM
Thanks for making my point, Chris.

Mike Henderson
10-26-2015, 3:35 PM
I have no complaints about the moderation on this forum. I like the fact that people are generally polite to each other and that posts that go outside the TOS are quickly addressed. A big "thank you" to the moderators who take on this thankless job.

Mike

Jeff Monson
10-26-2015, 3:42 PM
I have no complaints about the moderation on this forum. I like the fact that people are generally polite to each other and that posts that go outside the TOS are quickly addressed. A big "thank you" to the moderators who take on this thankless job.

Mike

Couldn't agree more. My feelings are, that if I get a post or comment removed....I shouldn't have said it in the first place. I'm here to learn and share and if I'm wrong or don't agree, I just refrain from commenting. Keep the creek the way it has always been and it will be successful.

Greg R Bradley
10-26-2015, 4:29 PM
I think the moderators do a great job with a rare glitch.

Thanks to Keith for that eye opening piece of information about users. I bet few of us had a clue.

The person who was incredulous when his post on a jointer was moved to workshops seemed to overreact. Most people that post a question will check back in 24 hours but not all. Leaving the "moved" message in place for a few days seems an improvement but could be limited by the forum software. Even better would be if it said "Moved. Reason: stationary wiring question." It could be better to move something only when necessary or when someone posts "This should be in Forum X".

If you don't think people are polite here, just look at some other forums! The real name requirement is a great idea.

A big THANK YOU for the people that take on the job.

Pat Barry
10-26-2015, 4:48 PM
I dont think you get the point. The heavyhandedness of the event we are talking of left a great big scar on this community. The fact that absolutely no one made a public statement about itcreated an awful amount if chaos, and made the Mods (with a few notable exceptions) seem indifferent to anything but their duties, as hard as they are; not the results of their actions.

im pretty sure this will be deleted, im even pretty sure who will do it.
I tend to believe that the actual scar is being created by the responders claiming some sort of injustice as compared to the Moderators. Get back to woodworking and discussions on that topic please.

Wade Lippman
10-26-2015, 6:31 PM
I'm not sure what more some of you want.

I think you are doing just fine.
I don't necessarily agree with every decision, but at the end of the day none of the horrible decisions that people are upset about really matter one way or the other.
Maybe people just have too much time on their hands.

Dennis Peacock
10-26-2015, 7:17 PM
I agree with Pat and Wade....why can't we just move on from here and simply stop dragging up the past? To me, this feels a lot like trying to get forgiveness for something my ancestors did over 100 years ago.

I'm sorry for all the heartache and ill will.....but can't we just please move on with woodworking and share what we know as well as learn from others?

Keith Outten
10-26-2015, 7:47 PM
I dont think you get the point. The heavyhandedness of the event we are talking of left a great big scar on this community. The fact that absolutely no one made a public statement about itcreated an awful amount if chaos, and made the Mods (with a few notable exceptions) seem indifferent to anything but their duties, as hard as they are; not the results of their actions.

im pretty sure this will be deleted, im even pretty sure who will do it.

Paul,

There is no scar on this Community nor has there ever been any chaos here, only a distaste that you and a select few have conjored up in your minds because you disagree with the way a particular event was handled. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but we have made it clear that the decisions we made are final and we are not obligated to address this in an open discussion.

Here is the first section of our Terms of Service:
I. General Terms

It is our policy to support the free flow of information in a manner best befitting the woodworking community at large. Sawmill Creek is an online community where woodworkers may come together to share and discuss a common interest. Sawmill Creek reserves the right to refuse or delete any Content of which it becomes aware and reasonably deems not to fulfill its established purpose. In addition, SawMill Creek shall have the right (but not the obligation) in its sole discretion to edit, refuse or delete any Content that it reasonably considers to violate these Terms without notice. You understand and agree that the service is provided "AS-IS" and that SawMill Creek assumes no responsibility for the timeliness, deletion, mis-delivery or failure to store any user communications.


Here is a statement that I have made publicly at least a hundred times:

Management of this Community is based solely on what is best for the majority and I am not nor have I ever been concerned with the complaints from a very small minority.

There you have it in black and white. Its always best that people who are not happy here leave of their own accord. If they fail to do so I often help them by removing their access permanently and this applies to everyone no matter what their level of expertise or their opinion concerning their own value.
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Jebediah Eckert
10-26-2015, 7:48 PM
I thoroughly enjoy this forum, all the projects, tips, help, and entertaining banter. I appreciate the moderators who keep it running. There has been a time or two I was following a thread and it was vaporized. Oh well, there were dozens and dozens more to move to. I can't recall the last time an actually woodworking thread was vaporized while still talking about woodworking.