Waterlox/Grain Filler - Starting Over Help

[Matt Palumbo]

OK. I had a few other posts on this forum trying to get help with my bar counter. I decided to start from scratch since I think it is easier at this point.

I have a butcher block, white oak bar counter that has been stained and multiple coats of waterlox applied. My goal is to start over and hopefully do it right for the look I am going for.
I just need some help with a few things:
I plan on stripping it with 150 and 220 grit paper with my orbital sander. I do want to stain and apply grain filler. I would like to get a smooth, "lake" effect look to the counter.

I have never used grain filler and would like to get some tips/help on how to apply.
Should it be done before or after I stain and should I be using a colored wood fill? Any recommendations for what is the best product out there? And I have read it should be applied after the stain and a coat of sealer, would the waterlox be considered the sealer or no?

I would like to finish the counter using Waterlox Original/Finish Sealer and plan on following their directions for counters - 4 coats of the Original/Sealer Finish.

Thanks for any help!
Matt

[Prashun Patel]

Consider this carefully.

Sanding may not 'unseal' the surface enough to allow even stain penetration.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun is right. If you want to stain (or dye) it you should use a chemical stripper to remove the current finish. It will get the finish out of the pores, although it may very well take at least two applications of stripper to do it. But sanding will not unless you sand below where the finish has penetrated. KleanStrip Premium will take off the old finish very quickly and very thoroughly. Forget the "green" strippers, use KleanStrip Premium and wear rubber gloves and an organics respirator.

Sorry, I never use grain filler so I can't offer any advise on that front. I like the lake effect on pianos, and not much else.

John

[Darren Chapman]

You have a lot of options regarding how to "best" use grain filler. There are a lot of different ways to use it. I spent weeks experimenting with different fillers and different finishing protocols to find the look I wanted. I expect you'll end up doing the same on scraps that you have.

I have experience with timbermate, wunderfil, and crystalac.

Crystalac is my least favorite. It's benefit is that it is "clear" when it dries, according to their advertising. In my experience, it has been somewhat hazy after it is covered with varnish. It is easy to tell which pieces have the crystalac on them and which don't. In my opinion, it gives the wood a dull finish. I could probably play with it a little more to see if I can get it to work better, but it is so hard to sand that I'm not sure I really want to fool with it.

Timbermate and wunderfil are very easy to work with. They both sand very easily to give you a smooth surface. You can dye (all of my experience is with dye, not stain) either before or after using them. The timbermate is colored. You will have to dye after using the wunderfil because it's not tinted (you can dye before as well if you'd like). You have to be careful when you dye before using the wood filler that you don't sand through the dye when you're sanding down the pore filler.

In general, the way I use them is I dye the wood, then I coat it with sealcoat, then I use pore filler, then I sand, then I dye the pore filler as necessary, then topcoats.

HTH,
Darren

[Prashun Patel]

Matt, if you can spray, then you may do best to just level the surface, grain fill if you wish, then spray shellac toner to adjust the color a shade or two. Then continue on with Waterlox.

I'd test this first...

[Matt Palumbo]

Matt, if you can spray, then you may do best to just level the surface, grain fill if you wish, then spray shellac toner to adjust the color a shade or two. Then continue on with Waterlox.

I'd test this first...

I cannot spray so that wouldn't be an option.

So I should use some stripper to remove the waterlox then sand and grain fill? At the local HD they have Klean Strip Premium to remove paint, epoxy and poly from wood. Would that be the correct stuff?
I want to change the color of the stain now as well.
My wife had talked me into a honey color and I do not like it now. I want to go with more of a walnut color...

I was reading about the Wunderfill grain filler. Seems that it takes stain well from what I read.
I was going to test on some scrap pieces of the butcherblock I still have laying around...

Seems that everyone has different applications for the grain filler - before stain, after stain, after stain and a sealcoat.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, KleanStrip Premium, about $25/gal at HD. Get the stuff in the gallon can, not the spray stuff. Works great.

John

[Matt Palumbo]

Yes, KleanStrip Premium, about $25/gal at HD. Get the stuff in the gallon can, not the spray stuff. Works great.

John

Thanks! So I went to HD this morning and was going to pick up the one that strips paint, epoxy and poly from wood but the can next to it stated it removes paint and stain from wood. Didn;t see that one on their website so I just want to make sure I am good with the epoxy/poly stripper for the Waterlox. I believe I am, but at this point I am over thinking things....

[Prashun Patel]

I have only stripped a finish once. It was such an unpleasant experience, with mediocre final results. I ended up drum sanding below the surface and redoing everything.

I was just hoping to find a better solution for you.

If you can live with the color, then the best option IMHO would be to keep at the waterlox. Every 3, sand it back aggressively. You'll fill that grain eventually.

[Matt Palumbo]

I have only stripped a finish once. It was such an unpleasant experience, with mediocre final results. I ended up drum sanding below the surface and redoing everything.

I was just hoping to find a better solution for you.

If you can live with the color, then the best option IMHO would be to keep at the waterlox. Every 3, sand it back aggressively. You'll fill that grain eventually.

I would like to change the color, but will sit on it for a week... :)
I do have a belt sander and 1/4 sheet sander which I figured would cut it down enough going 80, 100, 120, 150, 180, 220 grit...

[Prashun Patel]

If you've ever handplaned off a stained or varnished surface, you'll note that the color and finish doesn't penetrate all that deep. However, it's deep enough that simply sanding will likely not get deep enough. A belt sander can get deep enough, but you really risk making the surface wavy. And it may look perfectly flat when unfinished and sanded up to 220. But after you fill that grain, and get a glossy finish on it, you'll see ANY imperfect divots or undulations.

'Sit on it a week' is a good strategy. In fact, if you have the patience, finish/strip/fill/refinish or finish/sand/fill/refinish a wide test board and see how you do... You can use the bottom surface of your counter for that, I suppose.

I really wish you had access to an HVLP and felt comfortable with shellac and toning. It's a wonderful strategy to adjusting - not changing - the color in media res topcoating

[Scott Holmes]

You are doing a lot more work than needed. Waterlox (any film forming finish) will fill the grain completely with enough coats and sanding back to flat.

If you don't like the color; a sprayed coat or two of toner could change the color to something you want; you would be well on your way to a finished piece. Toners are available in aerosol cans.

I concur that sanding is not a good method of removing old finish; unless you are re-doing a floor with a floor sander.

[Matt Palumbo]

You are doing a lot more work than needed. Waterlox (any film forming finish) will fill the grain completely with enough coats and sanding back to flat.

If you don't like the color; a sprayed coat or two of toner could change the color to something you want; you would be well on your way to a finished piece. Toners are available in aerosol cans.

I concur that sanding is not a good method of removing old finish; unless you are re-doing a floor with a floor sander.

I'll look into toner. Is it something I will have to mix myself? And if it requires I spray I will not be able to do that...
Also, can I put it toner directly to the Waterlox?

[Scott Holmes]

Toner should only be applied to a sealed surface so the short answer is yes. HOWEVER, most toners are lacquer based so the Waterlox must have time to completely cure. (30+ days)

Another option is to use a shellac based toner. You can make shellac based toner by adding alcohol soluble dye to the de-waxed shellac. Toners really need to be sprayed. Light coats sneak up on the color.