Tall Cabinet Doors – Flat Stiles

[Justin Jump]

OK all, I have been through no less than 6 boards that are fairly flat from the supplier, only to go through the machining process to get them to 2” wide x 55” tall stiles, to have them bow.

Of about 10-12 attempts from flat boards, I got one piece pretty good and flat, and one “that will work”, but all the others are just too bowed to work, I could keep jointing and planning, but I’ll end up with ½” thick pieces….

How have most of you handle taller cabinet doors?

You can see my small pantry opening in the pics, and my attempt to catch the “bow” in the picture.

All my other pieces are fine, ranging from 3” up to 30”…..I had a few rejects in the 30” piece range, but not many.

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[Malcolm McLeod]

You didn't identify the wood material/species you are using, but it certainly seems to have a lot of stress. Looks like you are painting, so perhaps use a different material? In particular I'd stay far away from softwoods.

I did some control integration/programming work in a lumber mill one time. System I was working on was a "curve saw". They fed the worst looking, bent, crooked, twisted logs you can imagine into the saw. Lasers 'read' the log and hydraulically manipulate it so the curves were always tangent to the gang saw blade cluster. It spit out multiple 2X dimension lumber (pine) with the same curve as the log. They were all stacked, pressed flat, bound, and sent to kiln.

The resulting lumber looks straight and true, but as soon as you machine it, the internal stress goes crazy. Ask a framer what building a house with it is like!

If you're trying to build cabinets out of this, you better get in touch with your inner Salvador Dali.:cool:

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm a made all the cabinets and doors/panels for our kitchen a few years back ( http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196442-Pictures-of-Our-completed-Kitchen&highlight=kitchen ). I had some tall pantry doors. I milled my lumber and had to be in a production mode - meaning I made many long boards for the rails/stiles. Worrying about wood movement I milled everything oversize and let it sit for about a week before milling again and cutting the panel grooves. I selected the straightest ones for the tall doors. What you will also find is that the panels will straighten that bow out of the stile as long as it isn't too much.

Good Luck,

Mike

[David Zaret]

this is always a challenge - my designs always seem to incorporate long doors, especially on walls of pantries. i feel your pain.

i tend to use quarter sawn stock for the rails and stiles whenever possible, and ensure a stable panel with at least two glue lines. i let the flat, straight panel pull the stiles into flatness if they need a little nudge. so far, so good. in fact, the last door flatness issues i had on the last few kitchens were on small doors where i tried to be flashy and use a single wide board panel, with burl and curl in it....

good luck with your project.

--- dz

[John TenEyck]

How long was the wood in your shop before you started milling it? Unless the wood has internal stresses in it, which is certainly possible but not likely in 6 consecutive boards unless they came from the same kiln run and there was a problem, it's likely the MC was not in equilibrium with your shop. Rift sawn or quarter sawn lumber is more stable than plain sawn, but any of them will bow if the wood is not at or close to equilibrium. You can help minimize the problem by making sure to take off an equal amount from both faces and milling oversize and letting the wood sit for a day or two before milling to final dimensions. But if you start with wood that's at EMC with your shop you can work it to final dimensions in one go and not have problems (assuming it's stress free).

FWIW, a well respected woodworker had an article in FWW a few years ago that advocated dropping your wood on the floor a few times to release its internal stresses before milling it. Honest, you can't make this stuff up.

John

[Jim Dwight]

If you have the opportunity to rip wider boards down, a flat sawn board has edges that are essentially quarter sawn. The quarter sawn material will have grain running up and down if the board is laying flat. If you rip your stiles out of that it will help. I also agree completely with cutting and planning a bit oversize, letting it sit a day or so, and then machining to final size. Often my boards want to bow after cutting to rough width. But if you have an extra quarter inch or so of material and it is a decent board, you can re-machine and get what you need. I less often plane oversize and then to final dimensions but it is a good idea. I also have used a board bowed in the thickness dimension some by orienting it so that the concave side is towards the cabinet. That gaps the middle but I find that less objectionable than a gap at the ends.

If you really want flat and are painting, use mdf. It isn't very strong but it will be flat. I built some panels for a ceiling like flat panel doors (I wanted removable panels in the basement and didn't want to do a suspended ceiling) and MDF rails and stiles worked well. I don't like working with it but it is useful sometimes.

[Justin Jump]

I'm using soft maple - at least that's what I ordered. I have a few boards that are heavier than the others, might be getting some hard maple in there. I get it in either 8' or 10' lengths.

I used a reputable lumber supplier, guaranteeing the wood was kiln dried. I also have them S3S the boards to 7/8".

From there, I store the wood in attached garage, then a week or so before I take the wood up to my workshop where my mini-split is set to 70 degrees. My garage is part of the house, so its not terribly hot in the Summer, or freezing in the Winter.

From there, I ripped the boards to 2 1/2", jointed one face, jointed one edge, let the boards sit over night. I then joint one face and edge, plane to .720", rip the board to 2" wide, run it through the router for my Shaker profile.

I havent completed assembly right away, wondering if it should go right into assembly?

[Robert Engel]

Bowing is the hardest type of movement to deal with because its most due to stress, not moisture.

So, after all the talk about wood stress, wood moisture, incremental milling, acclimatization, etc. you are still going to get wood that will misbehave.
(Quarter sawn is great but even QS wood can misbehave).

The answer is splining. I learned this from a Charles Neil video on the Pie Safe.

Using a dado set, regroove the stiles deeper, to say, within 1/8" of the outer edge. It can be a bit tricky especially if the wood wants to cup toward the blade in so you have to use featherboards and use a splitter the same thickness as the dado to keep it from closing up.

Glue in a spline, clamp to a flat surface and let completely dry.

Regroove the stile. Spline is not visible except on the ends.

It will be flat and stay flat if you use a stiff drying glue (TBIII).

[Justin Jump]

Mike - nice post.....I cant believe I haven't come across that post before....looks like you may have lived/cooked through that, just what I did this summer, I got lucky though and was able to use the grill outside....

I see your long boards have a rail mid-way....wondering if that helps flatten out the door a bit?



I'm a made all the cabinets and doors/panels for our kitchen a few years back ( http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196442-Pictures-of-Our-completed-Kitchen&highlight=kitchen ). I had some tall pantry doors. I milled my lumber and had to be in a production mode - meaning I made many long boards for the rails/stiles. Worrying about wood movement I milled everything oversize and let it sit for about a week before milling again and cutting the panel grooves. I selected the straightest ones for the tall doors. What you will also find is that the panels will straighten that bow out of the stile as long as it isn't too much.

Good Luck,

Mike

[Brian Tymchak]

I used a reputable lumber supplier, guaranteeing the wood was kiln dried. I also have them S3S the boards to 7/8".

From there, I store the wood in attached garage, then a week or so before I take the wood up to my workshop where my mini-split is set to 70 degrees. My garage is part of the house, so its not terribly hot in the Summer, or freezing in the Winter.

From there, I ripped the boards to 2 1/2", jointed one face, jointed one edge, let the boards sit over night...

I would let the lumber sit in your workshop for a week before any milling. I wouldn't even store it in the garage. Go straight from supplier to workshop. It's not the change in temperature that is the problem, it's the change in relative humidity.




I havent completed assembly right away, wondering if it should go right into assembly?

Yes, I like to assemble as quickly as possible after the final milling.

[Don Jarvie]

A few ideas. Buy the wood rough and mill it yourself. It will give you more room for error. I usually joint 1 side and let them sit over night. I take off enough to make 1 side flat. I may need to do this a few times before the planer. It takes a week or so to get them ready but the time allows the boards to adjust so they stay flat. You may have a few pieces that won't cooperate so just move on to new boards.

Use solid wood instead of plywood for the panels. The solid wood will give more resistance than plywood if the frames want to twist.

[Don Kondra]

For long stiles, I use a process I call reverse bent lamination :)

Best start with rough 4/4 material, clean up the bowed face just enough to get a reference point.

Resaw in half and glue back together on a flat reference point such as your bench.

Let dry for a day or so and treat as you would a normal blank of wood.

Cheers, Don

[David Zaret]

don, i like that idea a lot, certainly the composite piece with glue lines will be much stronger and more stable. but man, that's a lot of work....

[Mel Fulks]

I get out a couple extra long styles then demote the worst ones to shorter stiles. Rip rough lumber about 1/2 inch wider than finished width, pick pieces only straight or bowed ; use nothing kinked(bowed in two directions, face on convex side. Most pieces will straighten on BOTH sides even though you are removing wood on one side only. Check that statement by checking wood with straight edge on uncut side concave side before and after facing. After planing non faced side clean remove any remaining thickness on faced side. The wood is going to move ,make it move in the RIGHT direction.

[John TenEyck]

Do the simple, but most important stuff first. Buy a moisture meter and measure the wood you buy and compare it with wood that's been in your shop for several months. This: http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html or this http://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-023-wood-is-good-but-strange is very helpful, too. You may be buying KD wood from a reputable dealer but if it's been stored in an unconditioned warehouse for very long it's likely to be 12% MC in the Summer in PA, maybe even higher, and your shop with AC might be 50% RH = 9% MC. Or maybe the wood really is 6%, but if the EMC of your shop is 10%; you are still out of whack.

If you check your wood with the moisture meter when you buy it you will know whether it's OK to use right away or whether you have to let it equilibrate with your shop (more than likely). And the moisture meter will tell you when it's OK to use. Starting with wood of uniform moisture content inside and out, at equilibrium with your shop, puts you 90% of the way to trouble free milling. All the other stuff is just trying to fix a problem that wouldn't occur if those criteria had been met.

John

[Mel Fulks]

Buying the pre dressed wood is a mistake when you need straight pieces. I've had to use some pre ruined wood at times but I have always refused to use it for stiles. As an employee that meant I was ready to quit if asked to do something I knew was a bad idea.

[Justin Ludwig]

Anything over 48 in height gets a mid rail. Anything over 24 in width gets a mid stile. I'm lucky my supplier has a $400k Weinig moulder. I order my door material S4S. I still get some bowed stock, but it's cut up for shorter pieces.

A pantry door on an 84", 90" or 96" cabinet will get two midrails for stability. Sometimes I'll design the cabinet so I get two doors. Adjustable shelves in the upper section, rollouts in the lower. Notice even these doors have a midrail and that is QSWO.

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[Tom M King]

Use old, stable wood.

[Jeff Duncan]

Expensive multi-head molders are great for running moldings and flooring and such….flattening stock not quite so much. Sure they'll take some twist and bow out, but believe me I've run stock through those machines and I wouldn't use it for door parts. Whenever we needed something to be flat we would joint first then run through the molder. If you look at up close one in action you'd understand why;)

Anyway I'll just tell you my process for making door parts for whatever it may be worth. First off start with rough stock, sight your boards and try to get parts as long as you can. If you need 4 - 60" long stiles, try to mill at least double that many. Then you pick the straightest and the rest become smaller parts. Now joint 1 edge and 1 face, clean up the face enough that you have it say 80% clean, it doesn't have to be completely clean yet. You just want it flat enough for a good register against the planer bed. Then Do NOT leave it overnight, your only asking for problems by doing this. You want to go right to the planer and clean the other face to try to keep the board in "balance". Now hopefully if your stock comes in strong, (which soft maple usually does), and your skilled at milling stock, you should have 15/16" to an inch of thickness left with a board mostly clean on both sides. Now as you do your remaining passes through the planer to get to thickness, sight your boards as you go. You want both sides pretty clean, but ideally try to run boards with any bow facing down. This will actually help remove the bow….(you'll just have to trust me in this one). Once your at your target thickness you can leave them overnight before ripping if you want, though I just usually run through the whole process in a day. I rough rip oversize as maple like to move when you rip it, so leave an extra say 1/8" or so on short pieces and longer pieces a bit more, maybe an extra 1/4" on something 7' long. Rip, re-joint to straight, and then rip down to your pre-profile dimension. Now go through your longer parts and pick the straightest parts out and cut those first for your longest stiles, continue the process from longest through shortest.

Doing your milling this way won't eliminate bowed or warped stock, but it will help minimize it. Even with soft maple which does like to move, you can usually make doors finish at 13/16" - 7/8". I've got 2 carts full of parts I milled this week like this for doors and ff's and right now as it's ready to run through the shaper as it sits at 15/16" strong…..(I'll lose another 1/16" or so through the wide belt), again assuming your stock comes in a little strong…mine usually comes in close to 1-1/8" thick. Other woods vary, like rift white oak which barely makes an inch:(

Hope this helps at least in the future:)
good luck,
JeffD