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Keith Winter
10-21-2015, 6:43 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm having a serious issue with my 120w Trotec that's been going on for about 2 weeks. The engraver seems to be loosing it's place whenever it cuts/engraves a complex file. I can open the same file on my 80w and it runs fine. but when I run it on my 120w it always looses it's position about 25-50% of the way through the file and starts cutting in a new place slightly off from where it should be. (not limited to just one file btw, it's happened with about a dozen files now). Also many times the laser has forgotten where the x/y is after it's messed up as shown in job control, it thinks the x/y is in a completely different placement than it really is. Once I close job control and restart the laser it resets back to the correct coordinates but still messes up on the next big file I run.

Trotec has sent me parts 4x now, an I/o board, an x/y motor, an x/y controller board and one other piece I cannot recall. I've replaced the usb cord. I reinstalled job control, then today I even replaced PC and had the electrician come out and run us a new wall electrial for the laser just in case it was some weird grounding issue or something. At this point I think even Trotec's stumped. I've been down 13 days now. I spoke with my rep today and called in the reinforcements and he's coming out next week, but I thought I'd ask on here if anyone has an idea so we make sure to have the right parts on hand. Has anyone ever experienced something like this?

sean berry
10-21-2015, 6:48 PM
Any chance the belt's slipping? Can you get it to fail at the same place on the same file more than once? (might be a software problem?)

Scott Shepherd
10-21-2015, 7:09 PM
Have you reloaded the firmware? Are they both running the same version of the firmware?

Keith Winter
10-21-2015, 9:17 PM
Have you reloaded the firmware? Are they both running the same version of the firmware?

Hi guys we have tried reinstalling the firmware twice. The belt could be slipping I suppose but it seems we would be having other issues as well like malformed circles and squares if that was the case. Will ask though. Points when it errors in the files are sometimes the same sometimes different. Makes a loud sound when it "forgets" where it's at and starts cutting in the wrong places sometimes, sometimes no sounds. Switched the computer and reinstalled job control no effect. Same job and plate without any changes runs fine on our other 80w so far (ran it about 5x ok on there)

Scott Shepherd
10-21-2015, 9:36 PM
But are they the same firmwares on both machines?

There is new firmware with 10.5, might be worth trying that and 10.5 to isolate the problem.

Keith Winter
10-21-2015, 9:54 PM
That's an interesting thought. It just started doing this out of the blue no changes on our end. We upped to the newest "stable" firmware when the trouble started but not effect. They had to upgrade our firmware again when the new i/o board was installed I was told. Which we did. But I'm unsure the firmware version number I'll check.

Steve Morris
10-22-2015, 6:53 AM
when they replaced the motor assembly did that include the rotary encoder?
Could be the encoder disc or sensor is failing

Also may be a problem with the ram memory on the main board

Keith Winter
10-22-2015, 7:51 AM
when they replaced the motor assembly did that include the rotary encoder?
Could be the encoder disc or sensor is failing

Also may be a problem with the ram memory on the main board

I'm not sure if they replaced the rotatry encoder or not I'll ask. I asked about ram or memory on the main board failing a number of times three different techs all told me there is no ram or memory on the machine.

Scott Shepherd
10-22-2015, 8:04 AM
You aren't by any chance using "Enhanced Geometry" are you?

Sounds like it's not the firmware, since they upgraded that, and have reloaded it already.

Scott Shepherd
10-22-2015, 8:53 AM
After thinking about this more, that sounds like the CPU to me. If you replaced the motors, the I/O board, and a controller board, and it still does it, it makes me think CPU. I think that machine has the CPU board plugged into the I/O board, but I might be mistaken.

Keith Winter
10-22-2015, 1:09 PM
You aren't by any chance using "Enhanced Geometry" are you?

Sounds like it's not the firmware, since they upgraded that, and have reloaded it already.

I'm not sure what that is, never tried it plus we've clean installed 2x on two different computers and two different cables. I believe the issue is contained to the laser.

Steve Morris
10-22-2015, 1:17 PM
Can't believe there is no ram given that PC's can't send the data stream in real time especially over USB.

Keith Winter
10-22-2015, 1:53 PM
Can't believe there is no ram given that PC's can't send the data stream in real time especially over USB.

^^^^^^^^^^^
My thoughts exactly! I've asked three different Trotec techs though, they all say there is none. I've also tried calling it different things in case they didn't understand what I meant by ram, buffer, memory, etc. So I've given up on that since they all say there is none.

Keith Winter
10-31-2015, 2:11 PM
So we ran a new circuit and replaced the breaker at the same time we moved the 120w Speedy 400 off the phase our other machine was on (when the 120w jumped it sometimes also made the other laser jump too). And wouldn't you know it when the Trotec rep came the laser worked fine. He put a meter on it and it was consistent the entire time. Very next day it was better but jumped again.

Typically only happens when cutting and it's completely random to us. When it happens it's cutting then it moves to a random location and just starts cutting again in the wrong place. It seems more and more like it's something to do with electrical or a board, or power supply is shorting enough to create noise in the electrical signal since it was affecting the other machine . Electrician thought this last idea was the most likely. Although it has seemed to have gotten much better since the breaker change, only messed up once last week. I'd like to fix it completely though. I've replaced four parts so far from Trotec, the Trotec rep came down and looked at it, and I've had the electricians up here three times. Your ideas are really helping. Any suggestions on what it could be or how to fix it?

Scott Shepherd
10-31-2015, 2:23 PM
Did they replace the CPU yet?

Kev Williams
10-31-2015, 4:23 PM
I'm having issues with the 'it caused the other machine to jump too'... I'm assuming the thing has servo motors rather than steppers? But even so, both types are 'told' where to go by an X-Y driver. All of my older Vanguard machines are running the black Bodine motors rather than the costly motors that came with them that all bit the dust long ago. The Bodine motors work fine, however-- 2 of my 3 machines have had stepper motor interference directly caused by these motors. I'm not sure why the 3rd machine (my newer XT) never has, but it's always been plugged into an EP module. The older XT used to jump around until I quit using the proprietary computer to run via PC thru an EP module... but, my small proprietary-driven Vanguard still has issues, mostly with the Z stepper. It's my cowbell machine, and once it get warmed up good, you can watch the Z leadscrew just randomly move back and forth when it isn't supposed to while the motor's running. No issues running the machine thru the motions with the motor not running. Also, the motor is plugged into its own outlet and I turn it on and off myself- this is because when connected to the machine's motor power plug, ALL the steppers would do crazy things...

That all said, sounds like you may have something similar going on. The CPU could definitely cause the problem, since it's telling your machine what to do. But because your OTHER machine was affected when on the same power leg, it could be that whatever is causing your 120 to goof is creating a power spike or drop that affected the other machine...

However, because BOTH machines improved when divorcing them from each other, I'm inclined to think there may be some outside influence causing the problem? Such as, do you have a cell phone tower nearby, or maybe a ham operator? A radio station? Or, someone 'electrically' close by that may have a piece of equipment drawing a ton of amperage when it kicks on? One of my long time customers used to have a vacu-forming machine that would draw something ridiculous like 1800 amps while starting up- Along with messing up his peak-usage based power bill, the power drop caused issues with other shops in his building...

Can you swap power sources between the 2 machines and see what happens? How about running the 120 from a generator to see if that helps or not? If it doesn't, that would eliminate your power supply as an issue...

Scott Shepherd
10-31-2015, 5:03 PM
I'm having issues with the 'it caused the other machine to jump too'...

Thanks for posting that Kev, when reading it, I completely didn't register that comment. If it's happening on both machines, then I agree, it's an outside problem, not a machine problem. The fact that one machine jumped and caused the other one to jump at the same time sounds like a power issue for certain.

Maybe put one of those power monitors on the line going to the laser and see if it's getting a spike up or down when it's happening.

That's bizarre.

Keith Winter
10-31-2015, 5:59 PM
Yes it's really bizarre. To answer you earlier question, if the cpu is that red card that plugs into the if board then yes we replaced it. Does that sound right?

Hi Kev,
We are in an industrial Park a lot of big industrial equipment being used in the surrounding blocks. We have 3 phase coming in and we are only using a fraction of the power we are supposed to have but it's possible I suppose a neighbor might be doing something funny. However it seems like it would affect my other Trotecs too I would think. Which makes it more odd. I have the extra power supply they sent but they haven't let us to install it yet since we couldn't duplicate the issue when the tech came down. More details below.

Steve, one other thing Kev pointed out once we divorced the two and replaced the breaker, they are no longer in phase with each other, the 80w machine stopped skipping, the 120w appeared to get better but not fixed 100%. Electrician says we are using about 30% of our electrical panel capacity and we have multiple other machines that don't appear to have the problem, which you would expect them to also have it if it was the buildings electric. If money was no object I'd have him just rewire the entire box just to even further eliminate issues. But that would cost an arm and a leg. The box is only three years old, all the electrical to the building was replaced three years ago when we renovated it.

Do you think it's possible there is an issue with the power coming into the building but only this one machine out of 8 or so being more sensitive and being affected? Or do you guys think it's the machine having some sort of short or internal power surge causing other equipment in the room to hiccup like the electrical wondered? Trotec blames the electric, electrician says it's all clean. Should I continue to replace parts on the machine or call back the electricians to start rewiring and testing everything? (Keeping in mind the connection to that laser itself has already been 100% redone.)

David Somers
10-31-2015, 7:31 PM
Keith,

Have you considered a line voltage regulator? They come in both 110 and 240 volt models. It would smooth out any spikes or dips in power on that circuit. I assume each machine has its own circuit?
A voltage regulator is not expensive and may be good insurance anyway. I use one to cover my Chinese laser and my CNC.

Dave

Scott Shepherd
10-31-2015, 9:00 PM
I just don't see how in the world it could be the machine by what you describe. How could a hiccup on one machine affect another machine? To me, that's near impossible. What, in my mind, is more likely, is that the electrical thing that's happening on the line would be happening on both machines at the same time, but for whatever reason, distance from panel, etc, one machine is more sensitive to it than the others. I wonder if you swapped machine locations if the problem follows the machine or the location? Might be worth trying.

I can't imagine any situation where something happening on one machine could back feed down the line and back into another laser. To me that seems near impossible. My guess is the electrician might be measuring things when they are fine and not catching any weird activity. They make voltage recorders, you might try one of those or ask them about it.

I'm just thinking out loud, I could be completely wrong, but to me, none of that sounds like machine related issues.

Keith Winter
11-01-2015, 12:02 AM
I just don't see how in the world it could be the machine by what you describe. How could a hiccup on one machine affect another machine? To me, that's near impossible. What, in my mind, is more likely, is that the electrical thing that's happening on the line would be happening on both machines at the same time, but for whatever reason, distance from panel, etc, one machine is more sensitive to it than the others. I wonder if you swapped machine locations if the problem follows the machine or the location? Might be worth trying.

I can't imagine any situation where something happening on one machine could back feed down the line and back into another laser. To me that seems near impossible. My guess is the electrician might be measuring things when they are fine and not catching any weird activity. They make voltage recorders, you might try one of those or ask them about it.

I'm just thinking out loud, I could be completely wrong, but to me, none of that sounds like machine related issues.

I'm not very experienced in electrical issues, this is very helpful guys thank you!

This makes a lot of sense, I did in essence move the machine without moving it when they ran the new line and circuit, and changed phases. It helped but didn't fix it. Other machines would have to still be on the old phase, including Trotec, but maybe the 300 and rotatry machines are less susceptible to electrical noise? The larger power requirements of the 400 120w making it more susceptible? I didn't know about the voltage recorder I'll ask the electricians about it good idea!

Dave that's also a good idea! I'll look into the cost of that and ask the electrician about it as well.

Kev Williams
11-01-2015, 12:21 AM
I'll ask again :) -- Do you have a generator you could run the 120 with temporarily? (fwiw, I've ran both my LS900 and ULS by generator more than once)

Keith Winter
11-01-2015, 1:33 AM
Kev, I have a generator but it's not working. I need to get it serviced.

Jerome Stanek
11-01-2015, 7:16 AM
Are you running both from the same computer or different ones.

Scott Shepherd
11-01-2015, 8:59 AM
Are you running both from the same computer or different ones.

Different ones. Each one takes it's own computer.

Keith, let's see if we can get someone like Dan to offer up his advice. He knows far more about it than I do. I'm just trying to logic it out, I'm sure he can shed some light into the reasoning it might be happening.

Ron Gosnell
11-01-2015, 3:08 PM
Keith, Are you in an industrial park ? Any welding shops nearby ?

Gozzie

Jerome Stanek
11-01-2015, 3:40 PM
I would try a good UPS system that cleans the power

Keith Winter
11-01-2015, 4:26 PM
Not sure if we have a welding shop near but we have almost every other type of industrial business around us. Worked for 6 months great, issue just started 2 months ago.

Ron Gosnell
11-01-2015, 4:52 PM
Anybody new move into the area ?
I'm a master electrician by trade and have seen these issues arise in the past.
You got good information here on getting a voltage recorder. It could be more than that too.
You could be receiving dirty power from other businesses around you. Welders can be a problem.
Some companies also use the power lines for communication transmission such as modems, security systems.
It's a cheaper route than running cables, but it also injects noise on the electrical system.
Your electric company should be able to help you diagnose what condition or state your power feed is in.
A semi expensive fix is a good ups system with built in filtering if that's the problem.
I feel for you, another aggravation that you might not have control over.

Keith Winter
11-02-2015, 12:30 PM
An aggregating issue for sure Gozzie. Thanks I'll call the electrical company too, anything I should ask them beyond does the line look ok and have there been any power issues in the past month? A specific test I should have them run? As far as UPSes issue I normally have is these lasers pull too many amps for them. I'll have to look around for one that can support the amps a 120w Trotec pulls.

I'll IM Dan Hintz as you suggest Scott. Anyone else that has more suggestions feel free to chime in. Thanks guys!

Scott Shepherd
11-02-2015, 12:36 PM
Tell anyone that it's a problem that comes and goes. That means any spot testing isn't going to be enough.

Kev Williams
11-02-2015, 12:37 PM
The easiest and cheapest quick test -- beg borrow or steal a generator! :D -- if it quits skipping on generator power, you can bet the problem is interference on the power line. If it still skips, then you have some other weird thing going on!

Ron Gosnell
11-02-2015, 2:48 PM
Easy old school trouble shooting with old school equipment.
Keith, The first I would do is check my own building. Did you install any new equipment, or do some rewiring ?

Easy method. You need a battery operated am radio. ( hardest part of the job is finding one (lol).
Tune the radio between stations for a nice static sound. Go to your breaker box and listen for noise.
There are 2 ways to do this.
1. Turn on everything and then turn off the breakers one at a time until hopefully the noise stops.
2. Start with all the breakers off and turn them on one at a time along with all the appliances associated with that breaker.
If you have all the breakers off and still get noise you know you have dirty power coming in.

It's a quick inexpensive self test that you and a buddy can do.

Gozzie

P.S. an old guitar amp and guitar plugged in is ultra sensitive. It will pick up on any interference too.
Plus you can show off your riffs and be a rock star too.

Keith Winter
11-06-2015, 4:51 PM
So we had the tech come up, it worked that day he was here, very next day it failed again. Since then the two electricians came and measured the electricity at the box when it messed up, he said there were no spikes or fluxes in the power when it happened. I'm now starting to wonder if the skip we had on the other Trotec was just a fluke and unrelated (someone bumped the machine while cutting or something). Since the issue happens day and night, (we've seen it happen as early as 7am and as late as 10pm) and the electrician was actually here when it happened and found nothing while measuring at that time, and we replaced the entire circuit to it, that would seem to rule out the electrical.

Trotec had us run a service file yesterday and sent it to Austria. I hope those guys can shed some light on it. Electrician thinks something electrical is mis-firing inside the machine (examples: components aren't talking to each other correctly/cpu malfunctioning/buffer malfunctioning/laser power supplies are causing interference) or it's overheating. The day the Trotec rep was here he had the back panel off all day and it worked fine. It always happens when cutting and not when it's engraving, and it only happens on the 120w which would generate more heat than the 80w, so heat being part of the issue seemed plausible. So I took the back panel off and put a fan on the power supplies. Still had the issue.

One other strange thing to note. When it messes up you can restart the computer and restart the laser, but many times it will mess up again in that exact same area again. Flip the artwork though and it messes up in a whole new area. It never messes up at the start of the file though, and always after it's been cutting for awhile. It's done this with about 20 different files and we've swapped computers and usb cables. Any other guesses at to what it could be?

Michael Evans
11-07-2015, 1:03 PM
Keith,
I know next to nothing about Trotec equipment. but I do have a strong technical background in other equipment. I see that you've ruled out tube overheating and that's a good start, but I didn't read, unless I've missed it, that you've tried a control card or main board. I'm sure this machine would have one and it is very possible that the board itself has a thermal related issue. A cold solder connection can be intermittent with temperature fluctuations. Very easy to prove or disprove by just swapping out the board itself. Surely your Trotec Rep would offer up a board temporarily so you could test the theory for a couple of days.

Michael Evans

Keith Winter
11-07-2015, 11:27 PM
Hi Michael, thanks for the reply. I ruled out power supply overheating by using fan, I could put the fan on the tube to try as well. Maybe try blowing on the heat sink since the tube is fully encased on a Trotec.

The cold solder thing you mention is very interesting. So they did send us a new IO board and what I think is the cpu board (red board that plugs into IO board) my staff replaced it. They also tried replacing an xy controller board. I also have new power supplies in the boxes that the tech did not install since it worked that one day he was here. I plan on contacting them again Tuesday if they don't contact me back Monday.