Wiring for an old motor

[John T Barker]

I've been working on getting this old jointer motor working again and finally have it ready ("ready" means I bought a switch and figured out a way to move the 200lb behemoth.) This jointer is older than my table saw which I've researched by Delta serial numbers to be 1950's age. I'd put the jointer at easily ten or twenty years or more older. I am having problems figuring out how to wire it now that I bought a switch for it. The power cord coming in to the switch is much newer than the switch and jointer. It has 3 wires (black, green and white.) The switch to the motor from the switch is older and has two wires (black and white.) The motor has four wires coming out of it and they all appear the same color. They are labelled B1,02,R3 and G4. BORG? I like that.

I'm pretty bad with electricity and am not interested in hiring an electrician (who may not know old motors anyway.) Can anyone give me some input on how to wire this monster. I bought this switch http://woodworker.com/onoff-switch-with-stop-enclosure-mssu-140-066.asp?search=140066&searchmode=2 from Woodworker's Supply. This is my motor
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Any help would be appreciated.
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[Lee Schierer]

I can't tell from your photos, is there a capacitor on that motor? The photo of the nameplate doesn't enlarge, can you write what it says on the nameplate?

[Rich Riddle]

The wiring you described indicates it's set up for 110 VAC, not 220 VAC. The black wire to the switch should be placed on one of the switch lugs. The black wire from the switch to the motor needs to be placed on the other switch lug. The white wire from the plug to the switch should be twisted together with the white wire going to the motor. Place a wire cap. It appears as though you have a green (ground) wire from the plug to the switch. You can ground that to the switch box if the box is metal.

Now on to that motor wiring. You will need to post a better picture of the plate so that we can expand it. That plate will tell us which wires need to be placed together in order for the motor to operate on 110 VAC. Generally when you run a motor on 110 VAC it will require twice the amps to operate as compared to when it is wired for 220 VAC. Many motors can operate on either setting.

Here is an example of a wiring plate diagram for low (110) vs high (220) volts.

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[Marion Smith]

If you are just replacing the switch, then aren't the only wires you need the same ones on the old switch?... Which is really just one wire, because all the switch does is control the power from the hot wire from the plug?

[John T Barker]

The motor was not running on 110. I will try to get a closeup of the plate. It's a Baldor, btw. It's 2 hp, 230v, 10amp and runs at 1725rpm. The problem here is that my experience level here is minimal as I've rarely had to work with my motors in my shop. I am not familiar with the termonology or how to read the diagrams. I pulled the motor off months ago and was initially going to replace it when it was suggested that with this old motor (no there is no capacitor) it could easily be a faulty switch...better to replace a switch than the motor. I don't recall how it was all wired and get a little nervous about learning with a 220volt motor that produces as much torque as this one does. I've spent the last month building a 6' tall hoist with a winch to move this thing since I can't lift it.

[Rich Riddle]

No capacitor? Well in my experience with shop motors the only ones that lack capacitors are three-phase motors. But if it was running on single-phase in the past, it's likely the correct style. Now moving back to the wiring.

Both the white and black wires from the plug will each be hot wires. Would you please post a picture of your switch on the inside as well? Even though there is a post of the diagram, viewing the actual switch innards helps. Your switch appears to be the same switch as the one at Grizzly. Here is the diagram for that switch.

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Coming from the plug, you have the white, black, and green wires. Start with the black wire. Connect the hot black wire coming from the plug to your switch on either of the two switch lugs that show "line" on it. Connect the hot white wire coming from the plug to your switch on the remaining lug that show "line" on it. Do NOT connect the green wire to the switch anywhere because it's not grounded to the machine/motor.

Coming from the switch to the motor. REPLACE THE CURRENT WIRE YOU HAVE with one that has one Black, one White, and one Green Wire. Connect the hot BLACK wire to your switch on either of the two switch lugs that show "load" on it. Connect the hot WHITE wire to your switch to the remaining lug that show "load" on it. Twist the green wires together inside the switch and place a wire cap on them.

I would place the white "line" wire across from the white "load" wire and the black "line" wire across from the black "load" wire inside the switch. In reality that won't make a bit of difference as long as you have one black wire and one white wire on each side of the "line" and "load" configuration. Make sure you have one on each side.

On the motor side, we still need the better pick to tell you how to wire that. With the new wire, you will be grounding the motor with the green wire though.

[John T Barker]

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I may have to get another picture of it. This is the best I can do.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Looks to me like the pecker head has been replaced (certainly the cover). I would guess that the original Hi/Lo wiring termination label disappeared with the original. But that said, wiring for these hasn't changed much in several decades. Wire it as Rich indicates and likely the worst thing that can happen is a blown CB.

Or, Baldor might be happy to provide support and maybe a new label. They might be positively swoll' up with pride that their fossil is still kickin'??

[Larry Browning]

Wow, that is a really old motor! Baldor quit making motors in St. Louis in the late 50's or early 60's. I really don't think we have records that old. but maybe. I still can't make out all the info on the nameplate. Please write down everything printed on the nameplate and post it. I might be able to track down a wiring connection diagram for you.

[bill tindall]

When in doubt take it to a motor shop and have someone there provide a safe, authoritive answer to the question. It has worked for me in these situations.

[John T Barker]

Wow, that is a really old motor! Baldor quit making motors in St. Louis in the late 50's or early 60's. I really don't think we have records that old. but maybe. I still can't make out all the info on the nameplate. Please write down everything printed on the nameplate and post it. I might be able to track down a wiring connection diagram for you.

Thank you.

[Rich Riddle]

If you are running it on high voltage (220 VAC) and there are only four wires, the above wiring diagram will work with 99% certainty. Your job would be to decide which wires are 1, 2, 3, and 4 so you can correctly connect the two wires together (2 and 3 in that diagram) with a wire nut. Then you could connect wires 1 and 4 to the hot legs. It doesn't matter which hot leg connects to wire 1 or 4 in that diagram. A motor shop can tell you, or you can use a multi-meter. To assist you further, please read the following information for wiring at the motor:

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/166834/correct-wiring-of-1-phase-220v-electrical-motor

[John T Barker]

When in doubt take it to a motor shop and have someone there provide a safe, authoritive answer to the question. It has worked for me in these situations.

It weighs about 200lbs!!!!!!

[John Lifer]

Make sure it says 1 phase not 3 phase on motor. Looks like 3 phase motor to me

[Charles Taylor]

Make sure it says 1 phase not 3 phase on motor. Looks like 3 phase motor to me
It's single phase, according to the motor plate.

In the first picture, I see what looks like a triangular cover. What's inside there?

[John T Barker]

It's single phase, according to the motor plate.

In the first picture, I see what looks like a triangular cover. What's inside there?

I don't see anything triangular on the motor. Sorry. Above the motor is the underside of the jointer looking somewhat rust covered. That?

[John T Barker]

To those that can help (thank you) and asked what the motor plate says (pictures don't come out any better.)

MECH - 7063

FRAME - 23R3

VOLTS - 115/230

PHASE - 1

RPM - 1725

WIND - D225

H.P. - 2

AMP - 21.4/10.7

CYC - 60

TEMP C - 55

The last one does not use the abbreviation TEMP but the symbol for degrees. Surprised that they used Celsius back then.

Thank you all.

[Charles Taylor]

I don't see anything triangular on the motor. Sorry. Above the motor is the underside of the jointer looking somewhat rust covered. That?


Maybe it isn't really triangular, just looks that way to me in the photo. I'm talking about this:
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Since there's the question of a capacitor on the motor, I wonder if looking underneath that cover would reveal a repulsion start mechanism. That may not offer much help on the wiring question, though, so it isn't really necessary to go in there just to satisfy my curiosity.

[John R Hoppe]

Back to the OP..."The power cord coming in to the switch is much newer than the switch and jointer. It has 3 wires (black, green and white.) The switch to the motor from the switch is older and has two wires (black and white.)"

Have you disconnected any wires at the motor? If not, the answer is simple.

Sounds like you have two wires to deal with here (The green wire is a ground and that comes to play later). You have a single phase motor, so you only need to switch one wire (the black one). First, replace the wiring from the motor to the switch box with a good quality 12 Ga. flex cable with black/white/green wires. Connect the green wire to the motor frame to create a ground point and the black/white wires where those colors were before. Wire the switch box as shown, switching the black wire and wire nut the white/white and green/green wires as shown in the diagram. If the box is metal, add a third green wire to the wire nut and connect it to the box for a ground.

This will re-create the wiring that the motor was running on and will add a ground wire to the circuit.
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[Larry Browning]

To those that can help (thank you) and asked what the motor plate says (pictures don't come out any better.)

MECH - 7063

FRAME - 23R3

VOLTS - 115/230

PHASE - 1

RPM - 1725

WIND - D225

H.P. - 2

AMP - 21.4/10.7

CYC - 60

TEMP C - 55

The last one does not use the abbreviation TEMP but the symbol for degrees. Surprised that they used Celsius back then.

Thank you all.

That motor is too old to be in our computer system. I would need to get access to stuff we have in archived file cabinets to find it. About the only thing I can tell you is that it is probably a repulsion start without a capacitor. (most (if not all) of those old single phase motors were that way) Also, FYI, ambient temp rating has always been shown in celsius for some reason.

[John T Barker]

Thank you Larry.

[John T Barker]

Back to the OP..."The power cord coming in to the switch is much newer than the switch and jointer. It has 3 wires (black, green and white.) The switch to the motor from the switch is older and has two wires (black and white.)"

Have you disconnected any wires at the motor? If not, the answer is simple.

Sounds like you have two wires to deal with here (The green wire is a ground and that comes to play later). You have a single phase motor, so you only need to switch one wire (the black one). First, replace the wiring from the motor to the switch box with a good quality 12 Ga. flex cable with black/white/green wires. Connect the green wire to the motor frame to create a ground point and the black/white wires where those colors were before. Wire the switch box as shown, switching the black wire and wire nut the white/white and green/green wires as shown in the diagram. If the box is metal, add a third green wire to the wire nut and connect it to the box for a ground.

This will re-create the wiring that the motor was running on and will add a ground wire to the circuit.
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Okay thanks. The things is the motor has internal wires coming out. Four of them as I labeled above, B1, O2, R3, G4. Coloring is too dark and old to determine. The wire that used to run from the motor to the switch I will toss and cut off a portion of the outlet to motor wire which is as you described. So I have to know how to connect the three wire cable to the motors four.
Curiousity, why are there multiple screws in the switch if I only need one?

Thank you again.

[John T Barker]

Maybe it isn't really triangular, just looks that way to me in the photo. I'm talking about this:
324108

Since there's the question of a capacitor on the motor, I wonder if looking underneath that cover would reveal a repulsion start mechanism. That may not offer much help on the wiring question, though, so it isn't really necessary to go in there just to satisfy my curiosity.

Sorry, missed your post. I never gave that a look. Lol. I'll give it a look when I am there.

[Charles Taylor]

Sorry, missed your post. I never gave that a look. Lol. I'll give it a look when I am there.


No worries. As I said, it probably won't get you closer to solving the wiring question, and besides, I think Larry has answered my question by saying that most of Baldor's motors of that age were repulsion start.

[Rich Riddle]

I have to indicate the information provided here was for 110 VAC. If you want to wire it up for 110 VAC that will work, but if not you need to wire the switch the way I had indicated on the first page for 220 VAC. You want to have both hot legs go through the switch and get turned off. The part about changing teh wire to good flexible 12 gauge is accurate. You can also wire the green to the motor frame as indicated. I will discuss how to wire each hot leg to he proper motor wires in a bit.


Back to the OP..."The power cord coming in to the switch is much newer than the switch and jointer. It has 3 wires (black, green and white.) The switch to the motor from the switch is older and has two wires (black and white.)"

Have you disconnected any wires at the motor? If not, the answer is simple.

Sounds like you have two wires to deal with here (The green wire is a ground and that comes to play later). You have a single phase motor, so you only need to switch one wire (the black one). First, replace the wiring from the motor to the switch box with a good quality 12 Ga. flex cable with black/white/green wires. Connect the green wire to the motor frame to create a ground point and the black/white wires where those colors were before. Wire the switch box as shown, switching the black wire and wire nut the white/white and green/green wires as shown in the diagram. If the box is metal, add a third green wire to the wire nut and connect it to the box for a ground.

This will re-create the wiring that the motor was running on and will add a ground wire to the circuit.
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[Rich Riddle]

I provided the information at OWWM and my idea of how to tell you to wire it. For once my idea was correct. You use the schematic I provided on the first page. Here is what Art said. He has a motor similar to yours. Originally the wires were different colors.

I have a very similar motor.
It's an iron framed Baldor repulsion-start; badge says frame 23B3R.
Mine is likely older than the one you're working on, since the badge spec voltages are 110/220.
It's also probably a little smaller since it is a 2 pole 3450 rpm motor.
HP and current specs are the same as the one you're working on though.

The metal B1 tag is on a lead with black (cloth sheath) insulation.
The G4 tag is on a lead with green insulation.
The O2 tag is on a lead that looks yellow but might once have been orange.
The R3 tag is on a lead that looks orange but might once have been red.
O2 and R3 are tied together.
When 230vac is put across B1 and G4, the motor runs.
(Direction should be reversible by shifting the position of the internal ring that holds the brushes - this may be more than your remote friend is up for though...)

So your inclination was correct.

Art

[Rich Riddle]

So from the switch to the motor after you have replaced the wiring on that part with a flexible 12 gauge that has white, black and green wires.

1. Ground the green to the motor.
2. Wire O2 to R3 and place a wire nut on them. I also use electrical tape to cover the wire nut.
3. Take either the white or black hot wire from the switch and connect it on B1 from the motor. Place a wire nut on it and cover it with electrical tape.
4. Take the remaining white or black hot wire from the switch and connect it on G4 from the motor. Place a wire nut on it and cover it with electrical tape.

Ensure at the "plug in" that you have a 220 VAC plug attached. Here is the photo again:

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[John T Barker]

Thank you very much Rich. I'll work on it Monday and let you know how I make out.

John

[Jim Wheeler]

If this is a repulsion start/ induction run motor, you may find the shifting device for changing direction of rotation underneath that triangular-shaped cover plate next to the motor's junction box.

Jim

He who welds steel with flaming pine cones may accomplish anything!​

[Roy Turbett]

I'm no expert, but you may pop a few breakers running that motor on 110v because 12 ga. wire is only rated for a 20 amp breaker and the motor plate says it draws 21.4 amps.

[Rich Riddle]

I'm no expert, but you may pop a few breakers running that motor on 110v because 12 ga. wire is only rated for a 20 amp breaker and the motor plate says it draws 21.4 amps.I gave him instructions on how to wire it for 220 VAC so 12 gauge wire should suffice. It would be interesting to see if 12 gauge would safely handle 21.4 amps though. I always figured those numbers were averaged down a bit.

[Mike Henderson]

I gave him instructions on how to wire it for 220 VAC so 12 gauge wire should suffice. It would be interesting to see if 12 gauge would safely handle 21.4 amps though. I always figured those numbers were averaged down a bit.
The amperage rating on the name plate is generally for full load. When starting it may draw a high current for a short while but once it gets to speed (not under load) the amperage will be quite a bit less. As you load the motor, it will draw more current until at full load (at the rated voltage) it will draw the name plate current.

So, even if it is rated for 21.4 amps you won't draw that very often.

This is not to advocate putting a motor like this on 12 gauge wire. Running it at 240 V and "half" current is a better solution.

Mike

[John T Barker]

I'm no expert, but you may pop a few breakers running that motor on 110v because 12 ga. wire is only rated for a 20 amp breaker and the motor plate says it draws 21.4 amps.

It's not run at 110.