Never face joint your boards?!????

[Eric Schatz]

I always face joint one side of my boards before running the opposite side through the planer (then flipping as I go). I do this on a jointer or by hand. However, I just joined a local woodworking club and had the privileged of using their big jointer. I started face jointing a 5 ft/6" piece of cherry and quickly gathered a circle of people. They all asked me why I would do that when I was going to run it through the big old planer they have.

They said that the planer will true up any twist or cup that is in the board. I explained that this wasn't how I was taught. They all insisted that I understand that this was the case.

If this is true then I could save a bunch of wear on jointer blades. I only have a lunchbox planer but I can see some of their reasoning on a big planer where the rollers are 12" apart.

[Mike Heidrick]

Take bowed piece of wood in and ask them to show you

[Eric Schatz]

Take bowed piece of wood in and ask them to show you

That's what I was thinking. but would the bed pull out twist?

[Bill Orbine]

Geeeee.......and I wasted all that money on a 12" wide jointer???

[David Kumm]

Be sure the old planer isn't a double sided one. If single, you can teach the group and move up to senior status. Dave

[Ed Labadie]

That's what I was thinking. but would the bed pull out twist?

Yes.....until it comes out of the planer, then you'll have a twisted board with parallel faces.

Ed

[Robert Parent]

As usual, the mobs of people are wrong...... You will have square lumber from which to build great things, your mates will not.

Robert

[Rod Sheridan]

I always face joint one side of my boards before running the opposite side through the planer (then flipping as I go). I do this on a jointer or by hand. However, I just joined a local woodworking club and had the privileged of using their big jointer. I started face jointing a 5 ft/6" piece of cherry and quickly gathered a circle of people. They all asked me why I would do that when I was going to run it through the big old planer they have.

They said that the planer will true up any twist or cup that is in the board. I explained that this wasn't how I was taught. They all insisted that I understand that this was the case.

If this is true then I could save a bunch of wear on jointer blades. I only have a lunchbox planer but I can see some of their reasoning on a big planer where the rollers are 12" apart.

Unfortunately you've joined a wood working club that has very limited knowledge.

A jointer makes things flat, a planer makes a surface parallel to a reference face.

Your approach is correct.............Rod.

[Daniel Rode]

Running a twisted or bowed board through a thickness planer will result in a board with 2 parallel faces that follow the same twist or bow.

[Prashun Patel]

"...the planer will true up any twist or cup that is in the board."

I agree in general with this statement, but I do think that here @ SMC we're religious about the fact that planers are banana in, banana out. In my limited experience, this depends on the thickness of the wood and the severity and location of the cup/twist/bow.

Out of laziness (and wide stock), I have personally skipped the jointing and planed really shallow passes, flipping between. A lot of times it works perfectly. More importantly, a lot of times it works 'well enough'. I notice two things: 1) on long stock, it may be globally twisted or cupped, but locally near perfect, and 2) (and I may not know my planer physics here, but I suspect that) shallow passes don't temporarily flatten as drastically heavy passes.

[Robert Engel]

I think you got the answer.

Its simple: a jointer joints and a thickness planer thicknesses.......

You're obviously dealing with some inexperienced ww'ers and/or who have been taught an error.

[John Lanciani]

I think you got the answer.

Its simple: a jointer joints and a thickness planer thicknesses.......

You're obviously dealing with some inexperienced ww'ers and/or who have been taught an error.

I've always thought that those crazy Europeans got it right by calling what we call a jointer a surfacer and what we call a planer a thicknesser. Much more intuitive.

[Jim Dwight]

While I understand jointing a face and an edge is correct, I took wood class too, I admit to just using the planner sometimes. It depends on what I am building and what my wood looks like. The same sort of board that will be noticeably warped if the jointer is not used first will not be the thickness I want if I do use the jointer first. For the straighter boards, it doesn't make a bunch of difference. But for the frame of a door, I better use the jointer. But the top of a table where there will be a glueup where I can even things out and the resultant piece will be screwed down eliminating additional lack of flatness does not require jointing first in my shop. The sides of a cabinet may not get jointed first because gluing them into the structure will flatten them.

I like to do things "right" but I like to be able to use the boards I have too.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Eric, using the planer will sometimes work the way your club mates think it will depending on the conditions. For example, a cupped board with no twist or bow. If you run it through the planer with the crown up, it will shave the crown off, and you'll then be able to flip it over and get two parallel sides. But the rough workpiece needs to have pretty perfect conditions (which are very rare).

You can also employ the "skip planing" technique, but again, you have to start with pretty flat workpieces.

This Wood Whisperer video describes it as well as I can. Send this to your new buddies in the club, but if you want to stay buddies with them, I would avoid rubbing it in their faces. haha


https://youtu.be/Dx8seCVTIGc?t=22m

[roger wiegand]

1) depends on the planer. Place where I used to get lumber had an enormous monster that would suck a banana in and produce a flat and true popsicle stick (to over-extend the metaphor). It planed (or jointed?) all four sides at once, both parallel to each other but also straight and square. if a board was too warped all you got out was shavings. I had them skip plane rough lumber in their machine and then I'd take it home to re-equilibrate for final jointing and planing on my one-sided planer, saved a lot of work without the disadvantages of S4S lumber. I'm not sure what was going on inside the box, it was about a 6 ft x6 ft x 10 ft box with lots of hand wheels and a slot you fed the boards into.

2) I've also been successful with Prashun's method on boards wider than I could joint. Light passes with the bow up in the center can accomplish the same thing as the jointer. I've also tacked shims on a board to keep it from twisting in the planer, allowing me to make a flat surface.

Necessity often makes the impossible possible, and if you like to use wide boards but only have a 6" jointer you figure out other ways to accomplish the same goal. All that said, it's a heck of a lot easier when you can joint one side and plane the other.

[Andrew Hughes]

Shoot I face boards that don't even need to be faced,That's how much I love starting and running my oliver.Planing not so much.Very boring.

[Tom M King]

That's awesome to belong to a club that has a Straightoplane!!! http://straitoplane.com/

[lowell holmes]

If you get a Deulen jig, you can sharpen your knives and not have to worry about wear.:)

[Allan Speers]

Take bowed piece of wood in and ask them to show you


This.


And bring a pair of winding sticks with you.

[Jim Andrew]

When I was in high school, they bought lumber that was supposedly planed in a straitoplane surfacer, it was twisted crooked crap. The projects everybody built needed to be assembled with LOTS of clamps. There was no surfacer, and only a 6" jointer.

[Peter Quinn]

I call hooey. I've never seen a planer straighten twisted stock before, best case it takes a little cup out of a wide board...so one out of three dimensions ain't bad right? I'd find a board rather on the challenging side, cut it in half......and tell them you're from the Misssouri wood workers guild......and please show me your technique. Save the other side so you can show them how to do it right.


actually you are probably best served by politely thanking them for their advice and going on about your business known as that "crazy guy who always starts at the jointer"........because there will never be a line at the jointer and the knives will stay sharper if you are the only one using them! Makes me wonder what other good tips they have in store for you.

[glenn bradley]

Eric, using the planer will sometimes work the way your club mates think it will depending on the conditions.

Yes, unfortunately there are certain shapes and situations that will allow a planer to flatten a board. This occasional exception feeds the myth. Board length, type of non-straightness (:D) and so forth will yield different results. Most board anomalies will not be dealt with by a planer alone. Sounds like you found a "fun" group there; they've discovered the secret jointer-maker society's plot to sell useless tools. Everyone needs a 16" jointer to edge joint all those boards you flatten with your planer ;).

[Pat Barry]

I think these generalizations are all too predictable. In fact the answer always depends on the situation. Take for example a 1x8"x6 ft board with an end to end bow of 1/2" or twist along its entire length. The jointer isn't going to make the board flat. The planer will at least get the faces parallel and that is much more important for most tasks. Lets take the same 1x6"x6 ft board with a cup of 1/4" - sure you can run the cup side down through the planer til your blue in the face but at the end of the day, after you surface the other side in your planer, the end result will be exactly the same. In fact, the results you get with a jointer are always dependent on how it is used. What I mean is that you need to push the board down flat against the bed to make it work, right? Doing so is just like what is going on in the planer to a large degree. I agree with Prashun - you can get there taking light passes in a planer and its a much more predictable, and safe tool, than a nasty jointer used for face jointing.

Ed: One thing the nasty jointer can do however, is flatten the face of rough cut lumber. I'll give you that. I suppose if thats what you are always dealing with then the jointer is a needed tool (or hand plane to flatten which I'd prefer to do anyway due to safety considerations).

[Robert Engel]

Take for example a 1x8"x6 ft board with an end to end bow of 1/2" or twist along its entire length. The jointer isn't going to make the board flat. The planer will at least get the faces parallel and that is much more important for most tasks.Of course! A board that twisted is unusable. But if you put it through a planer all you have is a bowed or twisted board with parallel faces. Still not a usable piece of stock.

I'm a little amazed there is even debate about the necessity of a jointer. Either way, proper stock selection begins with discarding boards that are unusable (or using them for short pieces if possible). :) You can't expect a machine to make something out of nothing.


In fact, the results you get with a jointer are always dependent on how it is used. What I mean is that you need to push the board down flat against the bed to make it work, right? Doing so is just like what is going on in the planer to a large degree.not the proper way to use a jointer. The only down pressure is on the outfeed side.[/quote]


I agree with Prashun - you can get there taking light passes in a planer and its a much more predictable, and safe tool, than a nasty jointer used for face jointing.Maybe if using a jointing sled or if dealing with thick material, but it will be very hard to get away with it just feeding lumber through a planer. You will simply never get a bow or twist out of a board this way.

A jointer is a very valuable tool when you understand how to use it properly. Most ww'ers wouldn't be without one. I think you have some fundamental misunderstandings about use and function.

It might be good for you to check out a few videos on stock preparation/milling. I can't think of even one that didn't employ jointing a face flat.

Understand the function of the machines. A jointer joints and a planer thicknesses.
The thing about a planer is is "garbage in/parallel garbage out".

[Prashun Patel]

Of course! A board that twisted is unusable. But if you put it through a planer all you have is a bowed or twisted board with parallel faces. Still not a usable piece of stock.
Maybe if using a jointing sled or if dealing with thick material, but it will be very hard to get away with it just feeding lumber through a planer. You will simply never get a bow or twist out of a board this way.
A jointer is a very valuable tool when you understand how to use it properly. Most ww'ers wouldn't be without one. I think you have some fundamental misunderstandings about use and function.
It might be good for you to check out a few videos on stock preparation/milling. I can't think of even one that didn't employ jointing a face flat.
Understand the function of the machines. A jointer joints and a planer thicknesses.
The thing about a planer is is "garbage in/parallel garbage out".

I agree that a jointer is indeed the RIGHT, perfect, and efficient way to flatten a face. I also think most people here agree with your rejection that a planer can be a PASSABLE jointer substitute SOME of the time on SOME wood.

I disagree with that categorical rejection. I'll check out your videos, but (with respect) like the Excederin commercial guy says, "I did my OWN kinda research". In my world, to my eyes, it's a pretty good shortcut. (I am now off to the opthamologist to get my eyes tested...;))

How I discovered this was by running rough lumber through the planer first. I found it easier to change planer blades than jointer blades, so I didn't want my jointer to see anything but cleaned lumber. I noticed that skip planing sometimes flattened the board considerably.

I do wonder how that ww club would SQUARE edges on thick lumber that exceeds the blade height of a tablesaw blade.

I hope my jointer is not reading any of this. I still love her dearly.

[mreza Salav]

If it works for them good! skip jointer.
You can decide for yourself whether you can simply go to planer or not. In such a situation I explain the reason and if they insist I simply say good, keep on using it that way. If I really want to prove it, take a bunch of boards that are bowed (narrower is better as they are more likely to be pressed down completely by the planer) and ask them to make a nice panel with them. See how it goes....

[Mike Schuch]

Take bowed piece of wood in and ask them to show you

Take a twisted board in and beat the fools over the head with it! Face joint - Edge joint @ 90 - Plane - Rip.

[bill tindall]

No firm rule here. I face joint stuff that needs it. All twisted stuff needs it. Some bowed stuff needs it. Certainly not everything needs face jointing. It is hard on jointer knives for the surface of lumber Is likely were the dulling foreign matter has accumulated. Without question it is easier to align the edges near perfect on panel glue up if one side was run across the jointer first. Bottom line- do it when it provides benefit. BTW, every shop we sold lumber to that built furniture had a wide jointer devoted to face flattening.

[Ian Moone]

Had someone considered hisself a good wood worker, come into my workshop once... I knew of his reputation, and assumed he knew his stuff. He wanted to use my jointer to remove paint from weather boards he intended to recycle!

I broke a lotta rules that day - coz I assumed he was more experienced knowledgeable than he was!

Normally no recycled wood in my factory for starters - I owned a sawmill, and had pick fo the mill so there was just no need to risk hitting broken off nails etc and gapping planer blades.

But this day I was busy and the planer blades were an old set on their last legs that I was about to throw in the bin anyway. I;d already bought the replacements... so why not?

He and hos lad got to work - on the jointer... while I am working on something else... eventually when I had a moment... i realized the damn noise from them on the jointer was driving me nutso - it never made that racket when i used it.

Went over - they were almost all the way thru their heap of 50 or more hardwood weather boards.... but, half the paints still on them!

So I watched them do the next board!

Yep - they had run the whole stack BACKWARDS across the jointer - just bruising the paint off with the jointer blades....

I said - not doing much of a job taking the paint off is it?.

"Nope" is the answer!

Says I - "Here - give me a go" and ran it across the jointer the correct direction, removing all the pain and leaving a nice finished face of old hardwood!

The guy and his lad look at each other dumbfounded...

Moved their complete stack to the right end and started over.

First and last time I ever let ANYONE wasn't a qualified tradesman into my shop to use the machinery.

Half the people in town reckoned this guy was some gun wood worker!.

Just shows ya... can't take anything for granted!

Guy obviously had is ambitions confused with his capabilities!.

There was a few "competitors" in our industry within the light industrial area - we were the first to build and establish there, but being a small town when others arrived we would get them round for a BBQ and few beers as a "welcome" gesture, and point out that - the more wood workers the better - because it brought more potential customers into the light industrial area and we all benefited so we all got along great!

We even co-operated with each other at times - no point all of us duplicating the same machinery capabilities in the same small timber town - better each one specializes into something & we all help each other out with that particular aspect. I guy had 2 Wadkin, 4 siders (4 inch and 8 inch) so when i needed to make flooring i went down and worked with him and ran my material thru.. when he needed timber kiln dried I'd make room in my seasoning kiln. Someone else had a portable saw mill we all accessed at times.

We each had our own business and capabilities with some crossover - but really it was almost a co-operative!

It's what you do to survive...i business in a small town... but no more non trades were allowed into the shop or near machines after the weatherboards backwards over the jointer incident!.

Sorry a little off topic - the jointer thing just brought the memories flooding back.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Guy obviously had is ambitions confused with his capabilities!.

Haha! I'm definitely going to reuse this!

[Alan Lilly]

IMHO... a better name for both machines would actually be:

A jointer should be called a planer, since the board surface "planer". This is what the British and Aussies call it.
A planer should be called a thickness coplanar, since it makes opposing surfaces parallel/coplanar and adjusts material thickness. The British call it a thickness planer.

[Prashun Patel]

I vote to drop the word 'planer' and 'jointer' together (especially when I'm feeling Neander using my 'jointer plane'). Both terms are confusing. I vote instead for 'thicknesser' and 'flattener'.

[Jerry Olexa]

I respectfully disagree with the advice they gave you...I always joint first...the planer merely reflects the good side you created..

[Ian Moone]

Alan Lilly is correct - working 20 years with my Aussie joiner father, he always referred to the jointer as the "Planer" and the planer as the thicknesser!.

I just swap the terms around for US forums.

[Ole Anderson]

Where I get my wood, I always have them rough thickness it to save wear and tear on my lunchbox planer and to avoid having to empty my cyclone catch bucket too often. They always surface it first on an old 24"? jointer, then run it through a planer to get the thickness I want, usually 1/16" over final. And they always sight down the board first to make sure they surface the correct side.

[Jason Roehl]

I think some are missing the point.

I'll stipulate that the BEST practice is to face joint, edge joint, plane (thickness), rip.

However, not everyone can just plunk down a fully-equipped shop and start with the best practices. This leads to gaining experience in "workarounds" as one builds up their tool inventory. I think the problem with the club is that they've dwelt on the workarounds as good practice, turning them into gospel.

If I have a 5/4 x 8 board that is cupped, putting it through my lunchbox planer WITH APPROPRIATE TECHNIQUE will remove the cup. It's just time-consuming (one of the trade-offs of workarounds usually). I send it through taking a very light cut (1/64"-1/32") so that the board is not compressed much by the planer feed rollers with the cup down. This gives it a smooth stripe down the middle. Then I flip it and lower the head for another very light cut, producing two smooth stripes down the outer edges of the board. Repeat as necessary. With each pass, the stripes get wider until they cover the faces.

For twist, one would need a sled and shims. The bottom line is that the cutting action of a planer/thicknesser and a jointer is the same, just different fence, bed and feed setups. With workarounds, they can be made to function similarly.