Anybody use a dovetail square?

[Frederick Skelly]

You know, the ones that have a blade that's only a couple mm's high? They are intended to make it easier to slip between close-set tails to check for squareness across the grain. Sterling Toolworks and Chris Vesper both sell versions. (You can get Vesper's version at Highland WW now, BTW.)

Are they as useful as they appear to be?

Thanks!
Fred

[Derek Cohen]

I cannot speak for the Sterling, but have used Chris Vesper's squares, including the small double square with dovetail attachments, for a number of years. Chris' work is about the best on the planet. You will pay a little more, but these are true lifetime tools of unequalled accuracy.

I need to add that Chris is a good friend of mine, but this just means that I get to play with all his wares. They are just superbly designed and made.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I can usually eyeball it with my small try square along the top edge looking down into the void.

jtk

[ken hatch]

I cannot speak for the Sterling, but have used Chris Vesper's squares, including the small double square with dovetail attachments, for a number of years. Chris' work is about the best on the planet. You will pay a little more, but these are true lifetime tools of unequalled accuracy.

I need to add that Chris is a good friend of mine, but this just means that I get to play with all his wares. They are just superbly designed and made.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Chris Vesper is not a friend (wish he were), except for that I agree with every thing Derek says about the small double square. I have a couple on my bench at all times, one with the narrow blade the other with the standard blade. They are one of the best and most used tools I own.

ken

[Mike Henderson]

I have the Sterling one and like it. It's very good for beginners in making dovetails. Beginners sometimes have trouble sawing straight across. And if your tail is not cut straight across, when you go to put the two pieces together, you're going to have a problem.

I use it in my dovetails class to show students whether the tail is cut straight across. They can then pare the tail and check the side of the tail with that tool. When the space between the tails is small, there's not another way that I know of to check the squareness of the tail, except by eye.

Mike

[I might add that what I'm talking about is the blade that you put in a double square head (or small combination square head), as shown on this page (http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/store/#!/Sterling-Dovetailing-Blade-Ruler/p/50394580/category=13579459).]

[Added note: I looked on Chris Vesper's web site and I can't find anyplace where he sells the blade only. It appears that he only sells that small blade as part of a package. If anyone knows that he sells just the blade, please post. Sterling sells just the blade for $25, which you can pair with a low cost PEC or iGauging double square head. The PEC double square blem is excellent and low cost.]

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't necessary attribute checking your work to being a beginner. On thin dovetails I rarely check, but case sized dovetails, especially for heavy casework where all of the dovetails will show through I will definitely check my work.

It's also useful for small tenons, and full blind dovetails, amongst other things i'm surely forgetting.

I have a vesper sliding bevel....it is wonderful. I look forward to using it on projects.

[lowell holmes]

http://www.amazon.com/Depth-Gauge-Peachtree-Woodworking-PW2164/dp/B0049RAEME


I use the small depth gage shown on the link above as a square on dovetail pins.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have several-Woodjoy and a beaut made for me by Phillip Marcou. But I prefer to use a sliding bevel square to layout the slopes and always use a small engineer's square to layout squared lines. Since I'm a ham-fisted amateur and not being paid by the job, I use a tiny engineer's square to test squareness after the cuts at the bottom.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys! I'm glad they're useful. I think I'll order just thr blade from Sterling since it fits PEC/I-gaging.

Mike, I don't see just the blade on Vesper's site either. It's very tempting to buy the whole square - everyone says such great things about his work and I hate the way my I-gaging mechanism sticks. But . . . . .

Lowell, thanks for the tip on using the depth gauge. I think for $25 for the Sterling blade, I'll just go buy one. But yours is definitely a good option!

Marcou? Man, Tony that's slick. But I'd be afraid I'd scratch that thing. He does such beautiful work.

[Paul Sidener]

You won't be sorry. I bought one from Sterling, at Handworks. It has really helped me get my dovetails to fit better and quicker. It was money well spent.

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks guys! I'm glad they're useful. I think I'll order just thr blade from Sterling since it fits PEC/I-gaging.

Mike, I don't see just the blade on Vesper's site either. It's very tempting to buy the whole square - everyone says such great things about his work and I hate the way my I-gaging mechanism sticks. But . . . . .

Lowell, thanks for the tip on using the depth gauge. I think for $25 for the Sterling blade, I'll just go buy one. But yours is definitely a good option!

Marcou? Man, Tony that's slick. But I'd be afraid I'd scratch that thing. He does such beautiful work.

I found that the PEC blem is smoother than the iGauging double square. If you can find a PEC blem - I think I paid about $16 for it - get one of them. Smoother than the iGauging.

You'll get a rule with it and you can use it as a general purpose rule when you put the Sterling thing in the head. They may offer a 6" rule on a blem - don't know. If they do, a 6" general purpose rule is a bit better than a 4".

Mike

[lowell holmes]

I've had the Lee Valley 4" double square for years. I like it, it stays out on my bench. At their current price, it is a bargain.

[Matt Bainton]

lowell, I wonder if the Lee Valley square would fit the Sterling DT blade? That does seem like a good price for a Made In USA precision square.

[lowell holmes]

I didn't snap to the Sterling blade because I did not realize it was from Tools for Working wood.
It really is a slick design.

However, I've used the depth gauge I mentioned in an earlier post for so many years, I'm happy with what I have.
The depth gage will check the dove tails for being precise, both the bottom of the dove tail and the squareness if the of the dove tail.

This has me thinking though, I have a small miter gauge that could be ground to a narrow stepped shape that would allow checking the pins as well.

[Mike Henderson]

lowell, I wonder if the Lee Valley square would fit the Sterling DT blade? That does seem like a good price for a Made In USA precision square.

I have the Lee Valley double square - bought quite a few years ago but I expect they still sell the same one. I'll check to see if the Sterling blade fits it, but I'm pretty sure it will.

I'm fairly sure that LV has that double square made for them. It's identical to the Mitutoyo double square.

Mike

[I checked and the Sterling blade fits the LV head.]

[lowell holmes]

I mis-identified my tool as a depth gauge. Is a protractor depth tool.

It has a set screw that allows setting an angle, like 1:6 or 1:8 and the tee head is substantial.

It can be used as a square, miter gauge, or depth gauge. The protractor is graduated in 15 degree increments. It can be set at angle you want to set.

I've used it for 8-10 years. It is stiff and it holds what ever angle or depth you set it. It is graduated in inches with 64's or 32's. The protractor is 25 degree increments.

It costs less than $30. It is not a sexy looking tool, but it is solid. It is a General no. 444.

[Randy Karst]

lowell, I wonder if the Lee Valley square would fit the Sterling DT blade? That does seem like a good price for a Made In USA precision square.
Matt, It does, its what I am using with my Sterling DT blade.

[Matt Bainton]

Based on speculation elsewhere that PEC makes the double square for Lee Valley and has exemplary quality, I bought one of their 4" cosmetic blems from Harry Epstein Co last night. That will be a big improvement on my tooling for dovetails, and eventually when budget allows, I'll place an order with Tools for Working Wood for the Sterling DT blade. Thanks for checking for us Randy and Mike!

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have the LV double square and it is an excellent tool and value. But, my most used small square is a Starrett 4" combination. Just seems more handy!

[Mike Holbrook]

I was just checking around for the tools mentioned here. Tools For Working Wood sells Sterling products including the $25 blade mentioned above. Highland Woodworking carries the Vesper, Sterling and Starrett Double Squares. They also offer a 6" Vesper Tools Double Square Blade (6") for $45. They offer Vesper Tools Double Square Sets which include:

Standard Set Includes:

5/8" x 5/16" x 1-15/16" (15mm x 8mm x 50mm) Double Square Head
3" x 1/2" blade with 1/16" graduations
3" x 1/6" blade with 1/16" graduations
3" long notched blade for small dovetails

Complete Set Includes:

Everything in the standard set
6" x 1/2" blade with 1/16" graduations


The Standard set is $140 and the Complete set is $180. Great price and saves the shipping from AUS too. Not sure if Chris would make a single blade for a Double Square but he is apparently reselling 6" blades through Highland.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Mike!

[Rob Luter]

I got myself a set of Lee Vally Dovetail Squares (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=49424&cat=1,42936,50298,49424) and a Saddle Square (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=48041&cat=1,42936,50298&ap=1) years ago. They work great. The saddle square is especially useful.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been following this post hoping someone would clarify what people use a dovetail Square for. I know there are potential problems if parts are not square. I guess my larger problem is there are so many different ways to make dovetails. I have Frank Klausz's video "Dovetail A Drawer", Jim Kingshott's "Dovetails" and I just went to Roy Underhill's class at Highland Woodworking on making dovetails. Frank says to just practice with a saw and maybe a little chiseling but nothing else. Roy claimed to confiscated any kind of dovetail jig he finds people using in his classes.....

I have plans to make a good number of dovetails in drawers, benches...but I have not settled on methods yet. I have been practicing with my saw like Frank suggests. I know thin dovetails are very popular but they worry me. I am in the process of restoring a desk made in Glasgow in the later part of the 18th century. Lots of dovetails in the desks construction. From what I have seen on older work the problem with the thin dovetails is over time they have a tendency to crack & break. I'm sure there are finishes and methods to prevent these issue but I still lean towards larger pins' especially since to date dovetails have not been a major part of my work.

The major thing I got from Roy's class was being "square" is a major issue in making dovetails, yet he tended to eyeball the sides of pins & tails and take pride in not knowing exactly what angle ratio he was working with.....Since the base line for dovetails is generally make with one of several marking (knife) gauges I am a little confused. I guess Frank depends on his saw cuts being "square".

[Derek Cohen]

Mike

There are a number of "squares" one might use in sawing dovetails, but none of them are actually necessary.

With experience, one tends to learn to saw squarely across a board, as well as in the vertical.

The only really vital "square" line is at the start if you saw tails first.

Sawing square is the key to tight fitting dovetails. Ganging up boards makes this easier to do.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails_html_m28cee0da.jpg


The square line above is critical. All the others are secondary since they act as a template when you transfer lines to the pin board.

The Square that I consider most useful is a dovetail marker, one of my own design (nothing original I am sure). It not only marks the dovetail angle, but it marks the square line across the board.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails_html_m30fe0ec1.jpg

The Vesper square mentioned earlier is excellent if you need to check whether the saw walls are square. However I actually never need to do this since I concentrate on sawing the square line and the adjacent diagonal line simultaneously. That usually gets me there.

The small squares are also used to check that the baseline is pared square, but I add a very slight undercut, and so square is not likely anyway - since this area has not important strength and does not glue well. (The purpose of a dovetail is to wedge the side walls).


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails_html_c5b240f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Wow, thanks for all the information & pictures Derek. If I am understanding Derek correctly, dovetail markers/templates may also be called dovetail squares which is at least part of what I was trying to clear up in terms of terminology. The discussion above was centered on double squares which surprised me a little when talking about dovetails. I figured most people used dovetail markers for marking dovetails. Although I suspect that quite a few people, like Roy, simply use a small square and "eyeball" the angles.

Obviously some people go for mathematically correct symmetry while others prefer designs that accentuate the hand made feature by studiously avoiding mathematical symmetry.

[Mike Henderson]

You can make your own dovetail markers. Here's a picture of some I made. Just make sure the angle is the same on both sides.

You can use your dovetail skills to make the marker.

Mike

323850

[Frederick Skelly]

Wow, thanks for all the information & pictures Derek. If I am understanding Derek correctly, dovetail markers/templates may also be called dovetail squares which is at least part of what I was trying to clear up in terms of terminology. The discussion above was centered on double squares which surprised me a little when talking about dovetails. I figured most people used dovetail markers for marking dovetails. Although I suspect that quite a few people, like Roy, simply use a small square and "eyeball" the angles.

Obviously some people go for mathematically correct symmetry while others prefer designs that accentuate the hand made feature by studiously avoiding mathematical symmetry.

Mike (edit: Mike Holbrook), the double square with a narrower blade let's you confirm that the side of the tail (the part inside, between two adjacent tails) is square with the "surface" of the tail. By surface, I mean the side that you used the dovetail template to draw on (the V shape). I always have trouble checking that, which is why I asked about the special square/blade. Look at Derek's 3rd pic and imagine trying to measure the side of the angled cut for square. Does that help at all?
Fred

[Mike Holbrook]

Good project Mike. Don't tell Frank or Roy but I have Veritas dovetail markers and 1:6, 1:7, 1:8 made from clear acrylic. I still may make a few wood ones just for fun/practice. Fred, looking at Derek's third picture kinda makes my eyes move in fast circles but I believe I understand what you are talking about. A smaller scale/ruler certainly should fit inside a dovetail better and Roy stressed the importance of those sides needing to be square for a good fit. I was thinking that the Vesper double square was a little small at around 3", but for this type work I imagine small is better. I am thinking about investing in a full Vesper double square set, with 4 rulers/blades, including the 6" ruler, it would be able to do 90% of the work I do. It is nice to have 2-3.... double squares set up for various measurements on a project, as I am sure many posters here do. I wish Highland carried the vesper sliding bevel, but I don't find it there which seems kinda weird.

[Bill McDermott]

In my experience, the squareness of dovetail cuts relates very directly to the precision of my marking. Since we are already talking about high quality tools, with warning of premium pricing, I am going to mention one of my favorites. The super handy Bridge City CT-17 was a gift from my folks back in 2007. It does many wonderful things, very well. But when it comes to marking out dovetails - it is simply fantastic because it includes the dovetail marker and saddle square in one. Anyway, that particular tool is long since discontinued. But a new run was just announced. It's aluminum and not quite as crazy expensive. The new one is a Bridge City model MT-2 Multi-tool. I know it's decadent, but I do love mine. More importantly, measuring the squareness of a cut after the fact is not as helpful to me as getting it accurately marked out in the first place. Here's hoping all of your pins and tails are in the right place and exactly 90 degrees to the reference face off the saw.