Space needed for full size slider...

[Patrick Walsh]

I would like to add a sliding table saw to my shop. I understand the space requirements with regard to length.

Can someone tell me what i will need fro width?

[Kent Adams]

I think you'll need to tell us what machine you're looking at, every machine is different.

[ian maybury]

Presuming a Euro style format saw (Felder/Hammer/Minimax etc) the envelope is roughly as follows.

To the RHS of the blade will be similar to a traditional US pattern table saw, and is dependent on how much rip capacity you go for. Common capacities might be around 850mm, or 1250mm. Possibly more if you as is unusual hang a router table off the end. It may need more space to accomodate the positioner when fully retracted if you (unlikely) fit e.g. an Incra TS LS style fence.

The slider will be to the LHS of the blade, and is typically about 400mm wide. A 8ft length capacity slider (capable of handling an 8ft sheet, actually a few inches longer in length) will extend about 2/3 or maybe 3/4 of it's length past the line of the saw arbor in both directions before hitting a stop. Or equivalent for shorter length sliders.

An 8ft slider is typically also fitted with a support frame and cross cut fence to the LH side of the slider. This will usually have around 1250mm capacity, but may extend to a full 8ft (pardon the mixed units) capacity and include stops. It may simultaneously be run with a short 18 to maybe 31 in mitre fence fitted on the infeed end.

Those are only very round numbers. Best if you are seriously considering one and space is tight best to ask for a layout drawing/plan view for the model you have in mind from the distributor...

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you for the feedback.

My best figuring came up with as Ian suggested. But also as Ian suggested i could not get a exact figure anywhere.

I'm considering a new Felder or a used Format or Martin. If i could have a late model Martin TS 75 for the price of a new Felder machine i would choose the Martin. Otherwise either a new top of the line Felder or used Format 4 Kapa.

I have 12' my intuition tells me this will never be enough room. Although i don't need to rip sheet goods width wise i do from time to time desire to do so and being able to make 96" 95" on a table saw would be sweet!

I guess i should ask my Felder rep for a spec sheet...

[David Hawxhurst]

felder has a footprint diagram that show the space the machine needs for operation. what it does not take into account is the size board that you might have to the left of the slider. i have a 9' slider and it takes every bit of 20' to use the slider to its full capacity.

[Peter Quinn]

You need 25' front to back and at least 14' side to side for a "full sized" slider...and by that I mean 10' travel with a full sized outrigger that can support an 8' sheet on cross cut. They have about 5' to the right of the saw on the fence side, and at least 9' on the out rigger, probably more like 15'-16' width would actually be comfortable. Thats to handle sheet goods. If space is a concern vertical panel saws take up less square footage of floor space and handle sheet goods as well or better IME.

[Kevin Nathanson]

I have a 10.5' Felder with ~50" capacity to the right of the blade. 7' of width will do for the body of the saw, but the carriage to the left on any saw you listed will extend 100" to the left of the blade. Slide travel lengthwise for my saw is 27' total. My gut says the Martin is bigger still; they're pretty substantial through the body, in part because the blade tilts in either direction.

K

[James Baker SD]

You can squeeze them into tight spaces if you really want to. I have a Felder KF700S with 9' slider and narrow rip capacity. It sits on the side of the garage and I park the car next to it. Once the car is backed out, I have no problem getting full use of the saw. Saw is placed so that with garage door closed (and car outside) I still have full range of motion on the slider. It works for me, but I am only a hobbyist, not a pro.

[Patrick Walsh]

After looking more into machine specs it looks like the KF700S would be my choice.

I am limited by the width of the door opening into my shop. It is something like 36"?

The top of the line Felder and format machines have a minimum of 39" transport width. I would imagine the Martin is more still. the KF700S is 31".

I figured i could make the saw work in my 12' of width space wise just maybe not to its full capacity. Now its a mater of deciding how crazy that will or will not drive me.

The good news is i have time to decide. I just took delivery of a AD941 and RL125 and about $2500 of Nordfab. Really im just trying to decide if i want to spend the another year saving for this machine or buy a couple much more less expensive mschines and round out my shop a bit.

On the other hand a spindle shaper would be real step towards rounding out my shop as much as any tool.

[ian maybury]

:) Seems like you're not cutting corners on the spec of your machines anyway Patrick. Not 100% sure what's available in Felder as my stuff is Hammer, but a saw/shaper combination is a very good option with only a few downsides when space is tight. It makes available the long slider on the saw for shaping jobs too. I bought a separate shaper, but have to move it in and out of a corner - and while it has advantages that way (e.g. a set up can be left on it) a combo might have been better as my shop is tight.

The frame/support table that mounts off the slider is a big space eater. The steel structure hangs out by about 1300mm (check the spec - to the point where the support arm attaches) which isn't that big, but the fence mounted on it overhangs further, and telescopes beyond that. Maybe think of running a short fence? The table can theoretically be removed and replaced, but it's the sort of thing probably best left on to maintain adjustments.

Quite a lot depends on the size of the work you envisage routinely doing - especially if you have a mitre gauge with a short cross cut fence and set of parallel bars fitted. e.g. http://nebula.wsimg.com/a1a482ddd1b21c985eebae53b04425b4?AccessKeyId=6F183 97E85FB8744AEDC&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 The latter are officially a stop system for setting up rip cuts off the slider, but the arms cantilever to the LHS off the side of the slider for about 1100mm depending on the set you have (mine are DIY) and do a good job of supporting narrower panels) You might find it's possible to go for ages without using (or even fitting) the support table unless you regularly cut down 8x4 sheets of ply or something.

It needs thinking through in terms of the sort of work you want to do, but you can save space on the rip side too by going for a roughly 800mm capacity table instead of the wider 1250mm. I have an Incra TS LS fence with 800mm capacity on mine, and can't say that I've missed not having the option to go to 1250mm since most jobs with larger panels (e.g. halving an 8x4) get done on the slider side anyway. I tend to use the rip primarily where it's either to a fine tolerance necessary to cut a constant width strip, or when i can't for a quick cut be bothered setting up the parallels.

While as before a drawing should get you there best of all would be to find a machine set up somewhere and climb over it with a tape measure - trying out and measuring the various set ups/configuration options as you go. If you want to visualise it really clearly draw your shop layout to scale, draw a scale plan view of the saw and cut it out, and try positioning one over the other.

The other big space eater is the need for access around these machines to load 8x4 sheets or whatever - especially if you work alone. It's best to think through carefully and exactly the mechanics of the various handling tasks. If nothing else you need to be able to conveniently nip around the saw (on the rip side?) to remove cut pieces from the outfeed side - the table on a format saw is wide enough front to back that it's not always safe or even possible to reach over from the infeed side...

[David Zaret]

i've modeled the footprint of my 10.5' martin slider in SketchUp... if it would help, i'd be happy to send you the model.

[Martin Wasner]

You need 25' front to back and at least 14' side to side for a "full sized" slider....

Plus room for the lift to get sheets onto the awkward thing. I don't understand the desire for a slider over a panel saw.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Patrick, these might help. They were sent to me by my Felder sale rep., Elizabeth R., when I were in your shoes not too long ago. She was very helpful.

323548

323547

[Andrew Joiner]

Plus room for the lift to get sheets onto the awkward thing. I don't understand the desire for a slider over a panel saw.
I agree I'm a vertical panel saw guy.

[Max Neu]

Plus room for the lift to get sheets onto the awkward thing. I don't understand the desire for a slider over a panel saw.
I use a 10' slider,I got it for the versatility.With a slider,you can cut angles,bevels,scoring blade,straight edge lumber,cut veneer,etc.

[David Zaret]

precisely. you can't build complex face frames on a panel saw.

[ian maybury]

I guess putting it in different language - a format sliding table model is still pretty much a do-everything sawing machine. A vertical panel saw is perhas a single purpose machine...

[Max Neu]

By far the most versatile machine in my shop,I couldn't imagine not having it.It is also really efficient at processing solid wood panels for raised panel doors.We glue up big sections (up to 10') of panels,and cut them to size on the slider.It saves alot of time and clamps vs. gluing up individual panels.There is a long list of things we do on the slider other than cut square and rectangle pcs. of sheet goods.

[Jim Andrew]

When I set up my shop, I wanted to be able to rip a 16' board. So I set the back side of the saw 16' from the wall. Now I have a small slider, 79x48 on one end of the shop and the unisaw pointed the opposite way, and have the same capacity on each. You do not need as big an outfeed table with the slider, so that can relieve some stress on the size. I find with the smaller slider, it takes about the same space as a cabinet saw. Before I bought mine, I visited a shop where they have a full size SCMI slider, and watched them work for a while to get an idea of how to work with the machine. The smaller saw is not as good on full length rips, but works just as well for crosscutting. If you need a full rip on a 8' sheet, just rip between fence and blade, then do your crosscuts with the slider. I like using my slider to straight line solid boards, but am limited to 78" long boards.

[Martin Wasner]

I use a 10' slider,I got it for the versatility.With a slider,you can cut angles,bevels,scoring blade,straight edge lumber,cut veneer,etc.

Panel saws typically don't need a scoring blade, you score material with the main blade doing a climb cut as you bring the head up to do a through cut. Some composite panels require a scoring blade, and it's an option.
Angles are a cakewalk.
I can't do bevel cuts.
I've straight lined lumber on the panel saw, though it was far from ideal.
I can rip 15', and I've only had to do that a handful of times in my career, it's been a life saver when I have had to.
I haven't cut veneer with one, though I've cut plenty of laminate with one

If I could have just one saw, I'd probably have a slider, but I still hate loading sheet stock onto one without the gantry lift, and I've got three other saws to choose from in the shop. Plus you're limited to one piece at a time whereas with a panel saw I can do a couple pieces of 3/4" at a time or three pieces of 1/2", or six pieces of 1/4" at a crack. Bulk cutting parts at once is a huge time saver.

[Kevin Nathanson]

The other big space eater is the need for access around these machines to load 8x4 sheets or whatever - especially if you work alone. It's best to think through carefully and exactly the mechanics of the various handling tasks. If nothing else you need to be able to conveniently nip around the saw (on the rip side?) to remove cut pieces from the outfeed side - the table on a format saw is wide enough front to back that it's not always safe or even possible to reach over from the infeed side...

This is important to remember! I am fortunate enough to have a very large shop area (~1,400sq.ft.) and every once in awhile I still manage to set up a sheet for cutting that ends up pinning me in a space where I have to do some gymnastics—and it is NOT pretty to watch a 55 year old 250lb troll do gymnastics!—in order to remove the piece after cutting it.

As far as your 'go/no-go' decision on the slider vs. other classes of equipment; if you can even consider something like a Martin, you will be so horribly disappointed with a significantly lesser saw that I encourage you to get the good one, especially given the other stuff you have. There will be some 'haters' with a different opinion—your $2,500 Nordfab expenditure has put you firmly on their list—but you are the one that will benefit from using that quality equipment all the time, and it makes a huge difference.

If you post your general location, there is probably someone reading this near you that you could visit to understand the real world space requirements needed.

K

P.S. I only spent $2k on my Nordfab, but I found about half of it used! ;-)

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

I think the reality is if i am to aquire a slider while in the space i now work out of "my basemnt" i will be kinda jamming the machine into place. This leaves me to consider that i will not be able to use the saw to its full capacity. I also will not be able to get that Martin TS75 into my shop or even Felders top of the line machines. I would be limited to the Felder KF700S or the new K540S.

Both machines would suit my needs just fine and i am sure i would be very very excited to have either in my shop. On the other hand if i had the space i would hands down purchase a used Martin or a Format4 Kapa. The facts are for the foreseeable future the space i have is the space i have. I will move in 5-10 years and when i do i will be sure i allot a seprate building for my shop to the tune of 2K sq ft a insulated and heated barn or the such.

Being that the case im inclined to just purchase the KF 700S and be happy i dropped only 20K with accessories on what is really two machines to what would amount to closer to 30K for a Format4 or used Martin. On the other hand i am a purchase exactly what you want the first time kinda guy even if you gotta wait longer than you would like.

Idk either way any of the above machines are a year of saving for me without living like a bum or foregoing contrabutions to my 401k and the such. Point being i have time to think about it. On the other hand if i ruled a slider out i could focus my saving efforts on other machines such as a wide belt sander, second band saw or even purchase the Felder FB 250 mortiser by the new year.

[Max Neu]

Patrick
If I was in your situation, I would hold off on buying a slider until you move, then get a good one, like a Martin or Altendorf.You could get a track saw to tie you over in the time being. I wouldn't want to deal with moving a big slider when the time comes to move. Remember, with a slider, you still need a table saw and feeder for ripping hardwood,even though the slider is versatile, you still need room for other saws.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have a ICS SawStop.

I just want the slider. Mostly as i work with rough lumber and the ease of putting a straight edge on wood without breaking out the track saw would be sweet.

Plus for work purposes i do build cabinets and built ins from time to time. It sure wouldn't stink to have a slider for that task either. The spindle shaper combo machine is real attractive and hence Felder.

Do you really think Altendorf and Martin are really that superior to High end Felder machine or Format4?

I cant help but kinda agree that waiting cant hurt. Plus who knows what these saws will be like in 5 more years ;)

[Max Neu]

Do I think the German machines are superior to high end Felders? YES!!
If you are a professional and depend on your machinery everyday,they are well worth the investment. If you are a hobbiest,I would say they are overkill.

[peter gagliardi]

I know of a colleague who bought the Format saw for his production shop, he is a whole lot less than thrilled with it. There is a very good reason Altendorf and Martin are top pics in pro shops. Almost any saw will work, the difference is in the fact that the better the saw the less fussing and fiddling, to keep it in adjustment, and wearing out of cheaper parts. Fit and finish are better, longevity is better, etc....
Put simply, you would be hard pressed to find an Altendorf or Martin user who wishes they had bought a Felder or Format.
The opposite though is more likely.
A casual user may not ever know, or be able to pick up on the subtle, and even not so subtle differences in the different classes of saw.
And honestly not all those differences will translate to a better end product......

[Patrick Walsh]

This is all good stuff for me to hear and consider.

FYI I'm in Natick Mass 20 west of Boston.

Although i will and do use my machines for work purposes chances are they will never be used in a production environment.

Still though i could easily see spoiling myself.

TBH the Felder AD941 i just took delivery of is as nice a machine as i could ever really need. And yes it is clear the difference in quality between it and a Martin T54. Would I kick the T54 out bed not a chance!

what is the going market price for a 5-10 year old Martin or Altendorf saw...

[Keith Weber]

My shop is only 11' 7" wide (48' long), but I squeezed an Altendorf F45 in there. I did have to do some modifications to the saw, however, to pull it off. I wanted 97" from the blade to the left wall, so that I could skim cut the end of a 4'x8' sheet. That left me with 42" from the blade to the right wall, a crosscut clearance of 36" to clear the vertical overarm blade guard post, and 27-1/2" using the rip fence. Normally, the 27.5" rip capability to the right of the blade would be a problem, but with a slider, I can just use a parallel jig on the other side of the blade to rip any width I want. My only restriction is that I can't crosscut a single 4x8 sheet into two 4x4 sheets because of the proximity of the right wall. I mentioned this to a buddy, who added that there isn't a saw made that can cut two 4x4s out a single 4x8. Obviously, he was referring to the loss of the kerf width, and I got a chuckle out of his comment.

So, I guess you could say if there's a will, there's a way.

Regarding Altendorf prices... You'd probably be hard pressed to find a 5-10 year old F45 for under $10K. I've seen them as high as $22K. It all depends on condition, features and accessories, but also who's selling them. Machinery dealers love to control the market on these and inflate the prices. You'll save a lot if you can find a private sale, or grab one at an auction.

[ian maybury]

Hi Keith. :) There's always some guy - but it's possible to halve a full 8x4 sheet on a Hammer K3 Perform with 8ft slider even though there is only around 32in of nominal rip capacity. (the layout is standard format saw similar to the current K4) There's nothing special about the saw.

Your wall may be a show stopper depending on the positioning of your saw - unless you can move it around which isn't a preferred option due to the risk of disturbing the set up. 97in to the LHS would leave 42in to the wall on your RHS which isn't quite enough. It'd still work with the saw where it is if you could afford to first cross cut/clip 3- 4in off the end of the sheet on your slider side before halving it.

For anybody else with a bit more room the trick is just to lift off the rip fence, clamp the sheet to the slider and let it overhang the rip table. Done carefully the Incra TS LS fence fitted on my machine (luckily) drops back on in alignment as should a standard rip fence - no need for re-setting the toe out afterwards. This one reason why not having a full 4ft rip capacity isn't necessarily a show stopper.

It's not necessary to use the full size cross cut fence support frame when doing this, although it certainly helps with squaring stuff up - the board can be supported on the slider mounted arms for the parallel fence (also with some overhang) and aligned using the short fence on the mitre gauge at the infeed end. Double checking alignment if needed by aligning a marked cut line parallel to the slider T slot or RH edge.

My shop is very small too, although wide enough that while movement around the saw gets a bit restricted at times this method is possible. It isn't my favourite job, mostly because loading the full sheet is awkward done single handed in a tight space. The key is that even though the sheet overhangs to both sides there's enough supporting length in the parallel bar arms, the rip table and to the outfeed/downstream side of the saw spindle that the halves are not even close to tipping off after cutting...

[Keith Weber]

Hi Ian,

I think my friend's comment might have slipped by you. :-)

He was absolutely correct about no saw being able to get two 4'x4's out of a 4'x8' because of the width of the saw blade. You end up with one 48"x48", and one 48"x47-7/8". Lots of saws can crosscut a 4x8 in half, though -- it just cannot produce two true 4x4s out of a 4x8.

[Patrick Walsh]

Good info.

I'm going to have to look into Altendorf with regard to exact minimum transport widths. My shop door opening is 37 1/4". At least with regard to the Felder line this limits me to the KS or the new 540.

I feel like with regard to Altendorf and Martin the smaller saws are all made by another manufacturer and rebadged? I dont know how accurate this info was but it is worth mentioning before i go making this decision in hopes i can get the real scoop.

What is the cost of the F45 or new Elmo. Same question with regard to the Martin TS75 and TS72




My shop is only 11' 7" wide (48' long), but I squeezed an Altendorf F45 in there. I did have to do some modifications to the saw, however, to pull it off. I wanted 97" from the blade to the left wall, so that I could skim cut the end of a 4'x8' sheet. That left me with 42" from the blade to the right wall, a crosscut clearance of 36" to clear the vertical overarm blade guard post, and 27-1/2" using the rip fence. Normally, the 27.5" rip capability to the right of the blade would be a problem, but with a slider, I can just use a parallel jig on the other side of the blade to rip any width I want. My only restriction is that I can't crosscut a single 4x8 sheet into two 4x4 sheets because of the proximity of the right wall. I mentioned this to a buddy, who added that there isn't a saw made that can cut two 4x4s out a single 4x8. Obviously, he was referring to the loss of the kerf width, and I got a chuckle out of his comment.

So, I guess you could say if there's a will, there's a way.

Regarding Altendorf prices... You'd probably be hard pressed to find a 5-10 year old F45 for under $10K. I've seen them as high as $22K. It all depends on condition, features and accessories, but also who's selling them. Machinery dealers love to control the market on these and inflate the prices. You'll save a lot if you can find a private sale, or grab one at an auction.

[Peter Kelly]

feel like with regard to Altendorf and Martin the smaller saws are all made by another manufacturer and rebadged? I The Altendorf WA Series saws are made in China, the F-Series ones are still made in-house. Expect to pay over $20k for a new F45. I'd imagine new Martin sliders start at the $30k range.

[Max Neu]

I would guess a new Elmo or Martin t75 would be in the 40-50k range.They all have a base price, but by the time you get it the way you want it,you will be we over that.

[David Hawxhurst]

Patrick
Remember, with a slider, you still need a table saw and feeder for ripping hardwood,even though the slider is versatile, you still need room for other saws.

you lost me on this. i have a slider and rip hardwood a lot with no problem. one of the big advantages of the slider is straight line ripping rough lumber.

[Max Neu]

you lost me on this. i have a slider and rip hardwood a lot with no problem. one of the big advantages of the slider is straight line ripping rough lumber.

It works good for straight line ripping wider board's,but for ripping narrow stock like face frame material, a standard table saw with a power feeder works much better.

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow,

40-50K just will never happen.

I guess used it will be.

I really like new other than cars and trucks.

if I'm gonna spend 20K i want new!

[Max Neu]

With Your Budget, I would look at SCMI.They bridge the gap between the Felder class and the German class of saws.They are a pretty good value in my opinion.

[Patrick Walsh]

For reasons i wont get into on a public forum i would purchase a used German machine or a Felder before a SCMI...



With Your Budget, I would look at SCMI.They bridge the gap between the Felder class and the German class of saws.They are a pretty good value in my opinion.

[Martin Wasner]

It works good for straight line ripping wider board's,but for ripping narrow stock like face frame material, a standard table saw with a power feeder works much better.

Too slow, not enough power. You can pick up a used Diehl rip saw with a productive feed rate for less than $10k.

[Max Neu]

Too slow, not enough power. You can pick up a used Diehl rip saw with a productive feed rate for less than $10k.

I am aware of that, but I don't think that is the kind of setup the op is looking for.He's struggling trying to fit a slider in his shop,let alone a single purpose saw like a Diehl.

[Bill Adamsen]

My shop door opening is 37 1/4"

I'd be concerned that might pose a challenge.

[Max Neu]

I'd be concerned that might pose a challenge.

I agree, op might have to invest in a Sawzall before a new slider! :)

[Keith Weber]

Good info.

I'm going to have to look into Altendorf with regard to exact minimum transport widths. My shop door opening is 37 1/4". At least with regard to the Felder line this limits me to the KS or the new 540.

What is the cost of the F45 or new Elmo. Same question with regard to the Martin TS75 and TS72

I was told that the replacement cost on my F45 was $35,000. 2001 Model, 7.5hp, 3400mm slider, scoring, digital readouts on the rip fence and crosscut fence, and Duplex angle gizmo. The Elmo, with the CNC fences and stops would surely be in the $40-50K range, as mentioned. I purposely looked for one without the CNC fences because I don't use the saw to generate an income, and it would be very expensive to repair if it ever broke. Mine have digital readouts, but I have to manually position the fence and stops. If a readout packed it in, I could just revert to the manual measurement scales, so there would be no down time.

The F45 is a fantastic saw. They thought of everything on it. If you lay the rip fence down on its low profile side, the saw senses that you did this and adjusts the rip fence digital readout automatically to compensate. The roller at the end of the crosscut fence is so smooth, you'd swear it was turned on a lathe after the bearings were set. It puts a smile on my face every time I use it.

If your door is only 37 1/4", though, I'm afraid that you're not going to get an F45 through it. You'd need about a 46" opening to get it through if you left the slider on (highly recommended, as they're usually dialed in by an Altendorf technician. Even if you took the slider off, the cast base is 38" wide, and you'd have to strip everything including the operator's panel to get it that narrow. Personally, I'd cut a bigger door before I'd pass on having my saw, though.

I'm not sure about Martins, aside from the fact that finding a used one will be next to impossible, and they're probably at least every bit as expensive as an Altendorf. The Altendorfs seem to be more plentiful.

[Patrick Walsh]

So what is the story with Felder then or rather Format4.

Has anyone had experience with all machines being discussed . If the Felder or Format saws are built anything like my new Ad941 combo i cant see ever needing something much nicer. If nicer was just a luxury that cost me maybe 5k more for beefier castings and a cool fence thant slides by itself well then i guess the 5K would be well worth it.

IDk i guess im really going to have to think on this one. I am just not feeling taking out a loan for a saw or dropping $35k cash on a tool.

And i agree i like the electronic height adjustment on my Ad941 and would want all that jazz on a slider. On the other hand if that control board goes on my AD941 the part is $1400 and the machine cant be used till it is repalced.

Maybe im meant to slum it with $20K felder lol...


I was told that the replacement cost on my F45 was $35,000. 2001 Model, 7.5hp, 3400mm slider, scoring, digital readouts on the rip fence and crosscut fence, and Duplex angle gizmo. The Elmo, with the CNC fences and stops would surely be in the $40-50K range, as mentioned. I purposely looked for one without the CNC fences because I don't use the saw to generate an income, and it would be very expensive to repair if it ever broke. Mine have digital readouts, but I have to manually position the fence and stops. If a readout packed it in, I could just revert to the manual measurement scales, so there would be no down time.

The F45 is a fantastic saw. They thought of everything on it. If you lay the rip fence down on its low profile side, the saw senses that you did this and adjusts the rip fence digital readout automatically to compensate. The roller at the end of the crosscut fence is so smooth, you'd swear it was turned on a lathe after the bearings were set. It puts a smile on my face every time I use it.

If your door is only 37 1/4", though, I'm afraid that you're not going to get an F45 through it. You'd need about a 46" opening to get it through if you left the slider on (highly recommended, as they're usually dialed in by an Altendorf technician. Even if you took the slider off, the cast base is 38" wide, and you'd have to strip everything including the operator's panel to get it that narrow. Personally, I'd cut a bigger door before I'd pass on having my saw, though.

I'm not sure about Martins, aside from the fact that finding a used one will be next to impossible, and they're probably at least every bit as expensive as an Altendorf. The Altendorf's seem to be more plentiful.

[Kevin Nathanson]

I have a Felder K700. To say that it is a good and solid piece is an understatement! We are really slicing thin here when we argue the merits of Altendorf vs. Martin vs. Felder/Format4. Germany vs. Austria; not Italy mind you... Austria. They are all extremely precise machines, with excellent repeatability and high quality engineering. All of these companies stand behind their equipment and will make sure it is right if you choose to buy a new (or even a used) one.

So much of the decision comes down to how you plan to use the saw, what accessories you want, and who is actually going to use the saw. That last one is important! If you are the only one that is going to use the saw, that means that you will take care of it, maintain it, and not force or jam it. The same cannot be said of an employee. In that scenario, the robustness of the Altendorf and Martin may afford a little bit more 'bad operator cushion' than the Felder. Also, there is one feature available on those two saws that is not, to the best of my knowledge, available from Felder. They can both tilt 45º in BOTH directions with the blade. The Felder only tilts to the right. (BTW, this is only with the newest Martins and Altendorfs) I wouldn't mind having that feature, but I paid less than five figures for my Felder (used) and I wouldn't give up my 37" wide belt, my spray booth, my Agazzani 24" and my Kaeser compressor just to get a blade that tilts both ways, and that is what the math tells me it would cost me to do so!

K

[Kevin Nathanson]

BTW, this is a pretty good auction for the caliber of equipment you are looking for:

http://www.machinerymax.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=AWI

You don't see Martin saws come up for auction very often!

K

[Erik Loza]

Just my opinion, which anyone can accept or reject as they like: If you're buying used and if you're just a hobbyist, I would NOT buy any machine with electronics. Regardless of how good the build quality is. Cannot tell you the number of guys I've talked to who got that "deal too good to be true" and then by the time Parts and Service got through with them, they could have had a new machine.

The thing to remember is that machines like an Elmo or a programmable Martin slider (and the SCM Class or Invincible, for that matter) are only sold new, with installation and a service contract by the dealer. They will need routine maintenance and calibration. For a hobbyist or one-person shop, a machine with electronics can make sense if you are buying new, since you have a warranty and possibly even install and service but realize that if something like a board or a servo goes out on a used machine, it will probably be down for a while and 100% on the owner to repair. Again, just my 2-cents.

Erik

[David Hawxhurst]

It works good for straight line ripping wider board's,but for ripping narrow stock like face frame material, a standard table saw with a power feeder works much better.

this would seem more like a production environment to me and not a kitchen or two that a hobbyist would build.

i have no problems cutting/ripping narrow face frame stock. there is more than oneway to do this.

[Max Neu]

this would seem more like a production environment to me and not a kitchen or two that a hobbyist would build.

i have no problems cutting/ripping narrow face frame stock. there is more than oneway to do this.
I guess we all have our own idea of production setups,but I certainly wouldn't consider cutting narrow strips with a conventional tablesaw (like a Powermatic or unisaw) a production setup,just safer and easier than doing it on a slider.I have cut narrow strips of solid wood on my slider in the past,I just never found it to be very practical.

[Gregory Stahl]

The WA 80 saws are made in Germany and roll of the same assembly line as the the F45s and Elmos. There is a video of them in production on youtube, and I checked one in person. The lower line of saws are of asian origins.

A new F45 is low to mid $30k and the WA 80 is about $21k.



The Altendorf WA Series saws are made in China, the F-Series ones are still made in-house. Expect to pay over $20k for a new F45. I'd imagine new Martin sliders start at the $30k range.

[Peter Kelly]

The WA 80 saws are made in Germany and roll of the same assembly line as the he F45s and Elmos. There is a video of them in production on youtube, and I checked one in person. The lower line of saws are of asian origins.

A new F45 is low to mid $30k and the WA 80 is about $21k.I stand corrected. WA 80 made in Germany (http://www.altendorf.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Produkte/WA_80/ANSICHT_wa80_Prospekt_Produkt_1407_05_4c_de.pdf), WA 8 made in Qinhuangdao (http://www.altendorf.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Produkte/WA_8/WA_8NT/wa8_Prospekt_Produkt_CE_0909_EN_ANSICHT_72dpi_008_ sf_gb.pdf).

The OP migh note the drawings shown on the PDFs linked above. Neither will fit through a 37.5" wide door, even with the wagon removed.

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow thanks for the link.

I already registered and bid on a item!


BTW, this is a pretty good auction for the caliber of equipment you are looking for:

http://www.machinerymax.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=AWI

You don't see Martin saws come up for auction very often!

K

[Patrick Walsh]

I would have to agree with you on this one.

On the other hand i did just purchase a jointer planer combo with electronic control of the planer table. I could had gotten the machine without this feature and knew it was just something else to break. I did ask the cost involved if the circuit board does go and how complicated it would be to fix myself. I liked the answer enough to just go for it.

Again on a slider i will be really temped to have all the bells and whistles but have to admit it does make me very nervous.

The fact is most of the high end machines i am looking at all seem to have these features pretty standard. Well unless like many machines you can get a stripped down version that is all mechanical. I cant see this being the case with Martin or Altendorf.


Just my opinion, which anyone can accept or reject as they like: If you're buying used and if you're just a hobbyist, I would NOT buy any machine with electronics. Regardless of how good the build quality is. Cannot tell you the number of guys I've talked to who got that "deal too good to be true" and then by the time Parts and Service got through with them, they could have had a new machine.

The thing to remember is that machines like an Elmo or a programmable Martin slider (and the SCM Class or Invincible, for that matter) are only sold new, with installation and a service contract by the dealer. They will need routine maintenance and calibration. For a hobbyist or one-person shop, a machine with electronics can make sense if you are buying new, since you have a warranty and possibly even install and service but realize that if something like a board or a servo goes out on a used machine, it will probably be down for a while and 100% on the owner to repair. Again, just my 2-cents.

Erik

[Kevin Nathanson]

The electronics are truly a double-edged sword. They are nice to have, but they also can cripple the machine if they break and there is no manual way to make the adjustments you need. My Felder is almost all manual; it has an external motor rigged up to adjust the blade height, and it has an aftermarket Tigerstop rip fence. If either one of those failed I could fall back to the manual mode (although it would be a pain to swap out the tigerstop...)
The nice thing about electronics in a non-production shop (production shops benefit from the set-up speed) is the repeatability. When things adjust back to the thousandth, that makes replicating parts, fitting jigs, etc. very simple. Even on my manual machines I at least try to have digital read outs (DRO) so that I can do things in an accurate and repeatable fashion.

K

[Patrick Walsh]

Really it is the repeatability that i desire in the electronics.

I am going to have to choose wisely with regard to all this. Part of that may be talking with a rep from each manufacturer about the cost and time involved in fixing a machine down due to electronics failure.

For instance my new AD941 arrived up and the tables are not coplanar. I could screw with it myself or pay a Felder tech to come fix it for me and show me how to do it myself the next time.

I'm paying the tech for a visit. Its expensive but not crazy expensive.

Oh and i won a Sawsall. Im a builder for gods sake.

I would cut a bigger door opening but i made a solid teak door and jamb for the doorway in question just last year. It cost me about 2K in materials. Plus i just really really like the door. No way i am screwing with it. I could pull it but then i would have to cut the opening in my foundation wider. I could do that also as i have a cut off saw but then my door would be to narrow :(

I loose...




The electronics are truly a double-edged sword. They are nice to have, but they also can cripple the machine if they break and there is no manual way to make the adjustments you need. My Felder is almost all manual; it has an external motor rigged up to adjust the blade height, and it has an aftermarket Tigerstop rip fence. If either one of those failed I could fall back to the manual mode (although it would be a pain to swap out the tigerstop...)
The nice thing about electronics in a non-production shop (production shops benefit from the set-up speed) is the repeatability. When things adjust back to the thousandth, that makes replicating parts, fitting jigs, etc. very simple. Even on my manual machines I at least try to have digital read outs (DRO) so that I can do things in an accurate and repeatable fashion.

K

[Jim Becker]

It's important to check the manufacturer's specifications for each machine you are considering. While you can "approximate" between "similar" machines, they each may have slightly different requirements. My MiniMax S315WS with the 8'6" wagon requires about 19' to accommodate the total throw of the slider. I recently cut down the right side table by 16" so that I could leave the outrigger on full time and still be able to walk around the saw with material loaded...this due to my shop's particular floor plan and the location of my J/P.

[ian maybury]

Post 28 Keith. :) I missed the bit about the kerf width making it impossible to saw an 8x4 into two 4x4s. Presuming that's an 'in' joke for you guys?

It'd be dead interesting to hear how you get on with the tech on the 941 Patrick. It's completely understandable why as a busy person you have chosen to go that route, but it's got to be a concern that a new machine should require a tech on a paid basis - if nothing else it eliminates much of the motivation for the factory to get it right during assembly. Interesting too to hear if the bullet is bitten in terms of his delivering a precision set up, and/or if expensive parts are replaced under warranty should it prove necessary to enable this. e.g. should the tables turn out not to be properly flat or whatever.

You're a class higher in terms of price point, but I was through the mill in 2011 with badly out of flat tables on a 16in Hammer machine which was a mess as delivered, and in absence of help being made available except on a paid basis (it wasn't run due to illness until it was just out of warranty - but the whole affair left a very bad taste) i ended up scraping them flat and setting the machine up myself.

Their claimed acceptable out of flatness tolerance for the tables was an enormous (if the machine was to joint consistently) 0.010in. i'd love to know what the equivalent number for the 941 is.

I'm not in the US, but would want to avoid the state of dependence created by electronics like the plague. Maybe if i was a commercial shop for whom they generated a definite payback/ROI after likely service and replacement costs were factored in, or if cost wasn't a factor for me...

[Joe Jensen]

I have a ICS SawStop.

I just want the slider. Mostly as i work with rough lumber and the ease of putting a straight edge on wood without breaking out the track saw would be sweet.

Plus for work purposes i do build cabinets and built ins from time to time. It sure wouldn't stink to have a slider for that task either. The spindle shaper combo machine is real attractive and hence Felder.

Do you really think Altendorf and Martin are really that superior to High end Felder machine or Format4?

I cant help but kinda agree that waiting cant hurt. Plus who knows what these saws will be like in 5 more years ;)

I have a Felder KF700SP. I had a SawStop ICS before the Felder and a PM66 before that. The Felder is made in Austria and a huge step up from cabinet saws. I lust after a Martin but having said that, the Martin is built to handle minimum wage workers slamming stacks of sheet goods on top of it for 30 years. Way overkill for a home shop. I can't imagine in my home shop knocking the Felder out of alignment.

Also, Felder makes their stuff in Austria. Some of the new Altendorf stuff is made in China.

[Erik Loza]

...I recently cut down the right side table by 16" so that I could leave the outrigger on full time and still be able to walk around the saw with material loaded...this due to my shop's particular floor plan and the location of my J/P.

I have a customer who did pretty much the same thing: Basically, "didn't" install the steel rip table, then butted that side of the saw up against the wall. I won't post pictures without his permission but he's been doing it that way for years and no issues.

All that being said, I thibk the biggest mitigating factor for the OP is the 37.5" doorway. Only the smallest sliders will fit through that. Certainly none of the industrial ones.

Erik

[Gregory Stahl]

Also, Felder makes their stuff in Austria. Some of the new Altendorf stuff is made in China.

Again, WA8 and below are made in China to reach a price point--probably still nicer than any Felder. Higher class machines made in Germany.

Anybody looking to buy a new Felder really should price an Altendorf--even the lower end Martin saws. You will be surprised! I priced a Format 4. For nearly the same price I bought the Altendorf F45. No options to negotiate, just a nice, well equipped saw for a great price. The Altendorf was better equipped too, included enough riving knives for virtually any blade I would ever buy. Stiles was running a promo a few months ago--F45 for a grand or two under $30k.

I like the SCMI saws too. Even the older green Hydro saws have a much nicer table than the Felder X-roll. I owned a Felder K915 for 6+ years. Worst table lock mechanism ever designed. Loose tables as the X-roll requires some clearance for the bearings as they are flat and wide. Flat and wide bearings roll over dust instead of cutting through it.

Greg

[peter gagliardi]

A couple things to add. Eric is spot on regarding used electronic machines. I bought a 4 year old MartinT73 12' slider, that was riddled with screen problems. Random freeze ups, etc... Eventually the main screen died, and it cost me 3 k for a new one!!
When I spoke with Martin, they knew the exact machine I had bought, and told me the previous owner had run it since day one off a phase converter which of course Martin recommends against.
It was their opinion that the phase converter didn't play well with the sensitive electronics in the machine.

The OP could get any slider in that space if he wanted to bad enough. Any of them will fit thru a 36" door, they just have to do so on their side.
Not easy, not fun, but certainly possible. We routinely build cabinets, and banks of cabinets that "will not fit through that door" to the happy amazement of customers.

[Gregory Stahl]

Stiles deal on F45 is much better than I thought! $23990 if you have something to trade in! Granted, this saw does not have the motorized rip fence, but still has digital read out. This is just a little higher than the Felder 900-series price wise, and a whole lot more saw!

ALTENDORF F45 EDITION MACHINE
This special edition F45 delivers innovation, dependability and the quality you expect from the World Leader in SlidingTable Saws. Featuring Altendorf’s proven double-roller carriage system, 3200mm sliding table length, 1300mm ripfence with digital readout, 2-axis scoring with RAPIDO shimless scoring, and fully programmable blade controls.
*Trade in any conventional table saw, sliding table saw or vertical panel saw and get the new F45 Editionfor $23,990.


http://www.stilesmachinery.com/assets/files/19o/altendorf-f45editionpromo2015.pdf

[David Kumm]

If you are wanting and needing to spend 15-25K for a new or used electronic Martin or Altendorf, you do want like new condition and some budget for replacement if needed. Electronics older than new version modular can be tough to deal with. If you have to have some electronics but want to spend less, I'd look at older 5-7K manual saws like SCMI, and some others that attach the crosscut fence to the bottom of the extrusion and have an eccentric bushing to square it. You can then either replace the fence with a Prostop or buy a replacement stop kit for the model saw you have from them to get an aftermarket DRO on the crosscut fence. Same is available for the rip fence although nothing beats a Tiger stop. The older 1990s sliders were heaviely built. Some have ball bearings and some like the Altendorf and clones ( I think Holz Her are made by Altendorf ) use a dumbell roller system. I have a 10' SCMI with digital crosscut and pnuematic clamps and have less than 8K in the whole deal. Just another option. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

If you are wanting and needing to spend 15-25K for a new or used electronic Martin or Altendorf, you do want like new condition and some budget for replacement if needed. Electronics older than new version modular can be tough to deal with. If you have to have some electronics but want to spend less, I'd look at older 5-7K manual saws like SCMI, and some others that attach the crosscut fence to the bottom of the extrusion and have an eccentric bushing to square it. You can then either replace the fence with a Prostop or buy a replacement stop kit for the model saw you have from them to get an aftermarket DRO on the crosscut fence. Same is available for the rip fence although nothing beats a Tiger stop. The older 1990s sliders were heaviely built. Some have ball bearings and some like the Altendorf and clones ( I think Holz Her are made by Altendorf ) use a dumbell roller system. I have a 10' SCMI with digital crosscut and pnuematic clamps and have less than 8K in the whole deal. Just another option. DaveI believe at least some of if not all the Holz-Her sliders were made by Griggio.

[Max Neu]

Another thing to consider,if you get one with electronics,and don't have 3 phase available,get a phase perfect converter,don't even consider any other type of converter!They are digital converters made to work with sensitive electronics.They aren't cheap, but neither is a new board.

[Patrick Walsh]

Really good info on the elecronics and phase converter.

I think the reality is i will end up with a Felder. I really am not keen on spending $25K on a machine prone to electrical problems then running it off another machine that only increases the potentialfor these problems.

To date i have made a point to source and or pay extra for single phase machines for my shop. Yeah i know i pass up some great deals on used machines but i think in the end it is the smartest thing for me to do.

I would really like a industeial quality machine like a Martin. Actually i really want a Martin specifically. Do i need a Martin absalutely not. The fact is they only make these industrial machines in theee phase so i guess that answers my question.

The tiger stop is a great option for me. Although costly so maybe why not just purchase a new Fleder machine or Format machine with all the bells and whistles. Right now Felder USA has a lightly used Format4 slider on sale for like $7500. Although i will not be buying this exact saw as it is not the right time for me. This is exactly the kind purchase that i think will best suit me.

maybe i could teara amachine like thT down to get through my door then put it back together myself. I could then hire a tech to come out and tune it for me.

maybe crazy or maybe a really good idea?

The fact is i will never have three phase as i will always want my shop home based even if out in the barn.

[ian maybury]

Like everything else Patrick there seems to be angles (not a pun!) to the rotary converter thing. For sure a static is going to produce a weak/leading or lagging phase. A rotary can be very good based on what i hear - but it may need tuning of the capacitors to achieve this. Which is perhaps what the fancy automatic ones do. I'm (nothing special about the set up) getting great service from a UK made Transwave rotary on an Agazzani bandsaw for example.

I'm not sure if they can be regarded as good enough to run an electronics equipped machine when correctly set up - but one common problem when hooking up to converters is to unthinkingly tap from the synthetic/generated third phase to power the controls. These may well include voltage sensitive stuff like relays - and solenoids for example are very sensitive to low voltage. They can chatter and hang in part positions and quickly burn out. It's regarded as important to trace the phases and make sure that this isn't accidentally done.

No idea if this might be the cause of some of the issues with electronics on machines powered by RPCs, or if there are not other possible issues too - but just hooking up at random might be expected to deliver a 1/3 (?) incidence of potentially problem installations….

[Patrick Walsh]

Ian,

i pretty much agree with all the above stated.

On the other hand i own the machine now. I can see how a machine could fall out in transport. We could get into the debate on should setup be included in the sale price blah blah. I purchased the machine knowing it was not and could become a problem. Would i pay a little extra for the machine to have it setup like Martin does.clearly yes i would.

This interaction with the tech will be factor in my decision making progress on not only a slider n
but other machinery purchases down the road.

lets hope it works out in my favor.


Post 28 Keith. :) I missed the bit about the kerf width making it impossible to saw an 8x4 into two 4x4s. Presuming that's an 'in' joke for you guys?

It'd be dead interesting to hear how you get on with the tech on the 941 Patrick. It's completely understandable why as a busy person you have chosen to go that route, but it's got to be a concern that a new machine should require a tech on a paid basis - if nothing else it eliminates much of the motivation for the factory to get it right during assembly. Interesting too to hear if the bullet is bitten in terms of his delivering a precision set up, and/or if expensive parts are replaced under warranty should it prove necessary to enable this. e.g. should the tables turn out not to be properly flat or whatever.

You're a class higher in terms of price point, but I was through the mill in 2011 with badly out of flat tables on a 16in Hammer machine which was a mess as delivered, and in absence of help being made available except on a paid basis (it wasn't run due to illness until it was just out of warranty - but the whole affair left a very bad taste) i ended up scraping them flat and setting the machine up myself.

Their claimed acceptable out of flatness tolerance for the tables was an enormous (if the machine was to joint consistently) 0.010in. i'd love to know what the equivalent number for the 941 is.

I'm not in the US, but would want to avoid the state of dependence created by electronics like the plague. Maybe if i was a commercial shop for whom they generated a definite payback/ROI after likely service and replacement costs were factored in, or if cost wasn't a factor for me...

[Keith Weber]

Another thing to consider,if you get one with electronics,and don't have 3 phase available,get a phase perfect converter,don't even consider any other type of converter!They are digital converters made to work with sensitive electronics.They aren't cheap, but neither is a new board.

Sorry Max, I've got to call you on that one. The notion that one should only buy a Phase Perfect and not an RPC is complete nonsense. The electronic components in any machine that I've wired do not run on 3-phase. They run on reduce voltage DC, or single phase AC. In a Rotary Phase Converter, the third leg is generated, and a capacitor bank evens out the voltages to an acceptable level. Machines like the Altendorf and many others say right in the manual to wire the control circuits to L1 and L2, and not the generated L3. Running the control circuits off L1 and L2 in an RPC is no different than running them directly off the mains, and will not cause any problems with electronics.

If someone is too naive to follow that simple guide line, or if they do not understand why you should not use L3, then they should probably not be in an electrical panel in the first place. You can run electronic machines just fine off RPCs if you wire them correctly.

I agree with Eric about repairs to electronic, high end machines being insanely costly, but running them correctly off an RPC isn't going to accelerate you down that path. It's not just electronics that are costly on these high-end machines. Everything is! You'd be amazed at the price of a simple screw or a knob if you need one.

[Max Neu]

Sorry Max, I've got to call you on that one. The notion that one should only buy a Phase Perfect and not an RPC is complete nonsense. The electronic components in any machine that I've wired do not run on 3-phase. They run on reduce voltage DC, or single phase AC. In a Rotary Phase Converter, the third leg is generated, and a capacitor bank evens out the voltages to an acceptable level. Machines like the Altendorf and many others say right in the manual to wire the control circuits to L1 and L2, and not the generated L3. Running the control circuits off L1 and L2 in an RPC is no different than running them directly off the mains, and will not cause any problems with electronics.

If someone is too naive to follow that simple guide line, or if they do not understand why you should not use L3, then they should probably not be in an electrical panel in the first place. You can run electronic machines just fine off RPCs if you wire them correctly.

I agree with Eric about repairs to electronic, high end machines being insanely costly, but running them correctly off an RPC isn't going to accelerate you down that path. It's not just electronics that are costly on these high-end machines. Everything is! You'd be amazed at the price of a simple screw or a knob if you need one.

I have a new Martin t27 shaper, and it would not run with my rotary phase converter.The only way we could get it to run without throwing an "over voltage " message was to run my slider at the same time to draw down the voltage going to the shaper,this was even after installing a transformer.Martin said the only converter they approve of is a phase perfect, any other converter would void my warranty against electronic damage. After installing the phase perfect, it now has the correct voltage going to it,and runs like a top now.Even though my rotary converter was sized right (10 hp.),it wasn't precise enough for those types of machines.Based on my personal experience, I would never run an expensive cnc controlled machine with a RC,not worth the risk in my opinion.

[Max Neu]

Btw,my machine was setup by a Martin tech,and they spent several hours with the guy's from Martin usa and Germany trying to help me out by making it work with my Rotary Phase converter,it just wouldn't work.

[Keith Weber]

Exactly what voltage are you referring to when you talk about your over-voltage message? Are you talking about one leg of the 3-phases being higher than the other two? Or are you talking about the overall voltage value getting to your control circuitry. If the Martin won't run because it senses that one of the legs is too much higher than the other two, then it won't run because Martin programmed that check into its startup sequence and it is preventing the startup of the machine.

Again, L1 and L2 voltage potential on an RPC is the mains voltage. It has nothing to do with the RPC. If your single phase mains read 244V, so should L1 to L2 in a properly-wired RPC. If that voltage is too high, then it's a utility supply problem. You can either talk to the utility company to rectify that if they are willing, or you use transformers to bring the voltage down to an acceptable level.

As I said before, control circuitry is NOT run on all three phases. It should be run off L1 and L2, through a transformer, if necessary, or through a rectifier and a transformer if using DC controls. You have to wire your transformer properly so that you get the correct output voltage. The transformers on this level of machinery have the ability to adjust the DC output if you have an over- or under-voltage situation that differs from the standard placarded voltage (say, 230V). It does this by offering different terminals on the transformer that add or omit a number of windings to adjust your output voltage to a level that you want.

It is common for the voltage coming into a building to be too high or too low depending on the distance to the utility company's transformer and the end user, as well as the gauge of the wire along the route. That's just a fact of life. That's what is going to fry electronics with an over-voltage at the control circuitry -- not because you're using a RPC. Whatever form your 3-phase comes in, you have to make sure that the step down to your control voltage is managed properly. A Phase Perfect will fry electronics too if you wire the terminals on the control transformers incorrectly.

I run about 10 machines off either an American Rotary or a Kay Industries RPC. Both of these units are good quality units. Two of those machines have sensitive electronics. I see zero risk in running them that way because I know exactly what my L1/L2 voltage is going into my machines, and ensure that the control circuits are powered from those legs.

[Max Neu]

Keith,
I do know that the voltage coming into the building was correct,they checked that.I am not an electrician/tech guy,or claim to be one,so I am not a good person to explain the exact problem/details.They told me in advance they strongly recommend a digital phase converter,I was being cheap,and told them to try it with what I had (a Kah converter).After everything we went through,and knowing Martin wouldn't stand behind the warranty on computer problems with a rotary converter,I knew getting the Phase Perfect was the best choice.It was actually a blessing in disguise,after having the Phase Perfect for a while,it amazes me how nice they are!With a digital converter,there is next to no noise (listening to rotary all day is very annoying),no heat coming off the converter,and you can pick it up with one hand,very light compared to the old style converters.They are also very energy efficient,when a macine is not running,they go into a conservation mode,and uses about as much electricity as a light bulb.Someday I would love to get rid of my 50 hp Kay converter and get another Phase Perfect to replace it.I am sure there is a reason why Martin only approves of digital converters on their machines,I don't think there is any financial benefit for them behind it.

[Martin Wasner]

Max, why don't you have three phase?

[peter gagliardi]

I had spoken with Martin in regards to the T73 that I had issues with, and again with the new T75 that we have, and at some point in the conversation it was insisted that I needed a "isolation transformer" ??
I never did get to the bottom of why, but we didn't get one, as my 3 ph tests accurate at the machine. I have true 3 ph in the building, off of an in building transformer that converts from primary- as in overhead street lines- 8700+/- volts down to 460 and under throughout.
My gut tells me they are trying every way possible to protect that 15hp VFD these have on them.

If Max is in an area anything like where my problematic T73 came from, it is rural farm country with little or no 3ph power.
The shop I got it from was literally on the edge of a cornfield.

[Max Neu]

Peter, you are exactly right ,I built my house and shop out in the country surrounded by fields. I don't hAve access to direct 3 phase, so I have to run converters. Running converters isn't a always a bad thing,I avoid paying commercial electric rates by hiding under the radar.

[ian maybury]

It could be imagined that a high end saw with very expensive electronics ought to have over voltage and whatever other protection is advisable built in. What with lightning, the big factory down the road and the service provider skimping on upgrading transformers etc and other stuff there's always the potential for supply funnies...

[Erik Loza]

It could be imagined that a high end saw with very expensive electronics ought to have over voltage and whatever other protection is advisable built in. What with lightning, the big factory down the road and the service provider skimping on upgrading transformers etc and other stuff there's always the potential for supply funnies... The issue I hear about more commonly is under-voltage or fluctuations in voltage, messing with the electronics. When you have electronic position control, rather than just a servo for up and down movement and a DRO. When I worked for the "other company", I recall a number of instances where our tech would tell me about a brown-out (which was common in the summertime in California) giving customers with digital drive, problems. Yes, you have overload protection but for whatever reason, and bear in mind that I am not an electrician, the boards had much more problems with undervoltage. Which can be an issue here in the States due to our dated power grid. Again, it's not for me to say but based on my user feedback experience, I can come up with about 10X the compelling arguments for a hobbyist or 1-person shop to NOT have programmable functions on any traditional machine but also, I realize folks will buy what they want. When I worked for the other company during the dot-com boom, there was one customer who bought a loaded 16" combo machine for his shop. His shop had windows from the house and would invite friends over and make them watch how the shaper spindle would go up and down while he programmed it as they all had wine together. I never heard about a single project he made with that machine. I suppose everybody's money is all the same shade of green but really, what do you actually need to get the job done? Erik

[Martin Wasner]

Peter, you are exactly right ,I built my house and shop out in the country surrounded by fields. I don't hAve access to direct 3 phase, so I have to run converters. Running converters isn't a always a bad thing,I avoid paying commercial electric rates by hiding under the radar.


Ah, that's a bummer. I'm not sure I could get away with it is why I asked. Too much amperage to make it work in my case I'd think. I'm pulling a 170 amps on 208V with just the widebelt and the dust collector running. One more reason to bring 480V in, in the new shop, that load drops to 77 amps on 480V.

[Christopher Fallago]

Pat, I was in a similar position as you. I wanted a larger 10' slider, didn't really have the space in my basement and was hesitant to commit a lot of money to something I will want to upgrade (when space allows) in the near future. I was lucky enough to have a walkout basement with double doors. I actually wound up arriving at the Felder KF700 as well. I found one used, like new for $2,500 it has the short slider but for that price I will probably just keep it for the shaper when I upgrade. The guy I bought it from had a fairly new F45 that he bought used, it's a big machine. I also found an AD 751 with digidrive, the euroguard and extension tables for a great price, I can't ever see needing to upgrade the J/P. I will say that the rip fence on my KF700 sucks, but I deal with it for now. I would say that the Felder is great, especially if you're not in a production envt. It's really a solid saw. I would think that once it's tuned properly it would be just as accurate as a martin or altendorf, which are way overkill (still really nice) if you're not planning on running it everyday for a few hours. The best thing is that I bought a high lift pallet jack and use that to move the machines, they have the mobility kit but I still use the pallet jack, it's just easier for me. It would be much more difficult to move a martin or altendorf which weigh 3,000-4000#. I also use it to lift the 150# power feed and could use it to load the sliding table. I would go with a well optioned felder not because it's better but because it's the best compromise between performance and price, and it has the convenience factor (it doesn't weigh more than my car)...also maybe take a look at minimax.

[Jim Becker]

The issue I hear about more commonly is under-voltage or fluctuations in voltage, messing with the electronics. When you have electronic position control, rather than just a servo for up and down movement and a DRO. When I worked for the "other company", I recall a number of instances where our tech would tell me about a brown-out (which was common in the summertime in California) giving customers with digital drive, problems. Yes, you have overload protection but for whatever reason, and bear in mind that I am not an electrician, the boards had much more problems with undervoltage. Which can be an issue here in the States due to our dated power grid.

Erik, you may or may not recall that I had an undervoltage issue with my S315WS a few years back due to supply from the street and even without fancy programability, it was causing my saw to not operate consistently. With Sam's input, I installed a transformed designed to fix that issue and I haven't had a problem since. I can only imagine how much fun things might be with computer technology involved!

[Erik Loza]

Jim, no, I don't remember that but it's a not-uncommon issue. I have had issues at trade shows in the past where the we ordered 220V and ended up only with 208V and an unsteady 208V at that. Bandsaws where the switches would hum loudly, that type of thing. In my experience, you have around 10% leeway from the motor's native voltage of 230V, either direction, before the mag protection switches start having issues. "Under" being a lot more common than "over".

If a customer calls me with complaints about their motor unexpectedly shutting down under load, the first question I ask them is what their voltage is at the motor. Typically, they respond, "Oh, it's 220V". Then I ask, "Have you measured that or is that just what the power company is telling you?". Sometimes there is a surprising answer once they actually do measure it.

Erik