Eurosliders part 2 of a series

[John Renzetti]

Hi, My friend Paul Cresti started an excellent thread on Eurosliders and what they can do. One of the things he mentioned was using the slider to rip long boards. I was making some oak trim today and had to rip some rough boards. The board in the photo is 114" long.
What I found was that if the board is relatively wide, it is easier to do on the slider. If all that is needed is to trim an edge of a thinner board, then using the rip fence was faster, but required some finesse to start the board correctly.
And of course I have to mention that you can do all of this on a bandsaw. It's just not as fast, nor as much fun, in my opinion.
take care,
John

[Alan Turner]

Cool. Keep up the posting as I, for one, have never had access to a tool of this sort. Learing from my friends on SMC is a bunch of fun.

[Lee DeRaud]

Ok, I'll bite (since I've never even seen one of these beasts close-up):
how do you attach the board to the slider to keep it lined up as you feed it through?

[Jim Becker]

Hey, I recognize that board from Hearne!! ;)
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Lee, that black thing (shoe) in the front supports that end of the board and you can use a clamp at the back if you choose, although it's not always necessary as your hand can also act as the clamp at the rear since you're holding the slider anyway to push through the cut. You would be surprised at how much clamping pressure you can apply with your hands in this situation!

[Paul B. Cresti]

John,

Thanks for the backup! I thought everyone would think I was the only nut out there (in more ways than one):eek:

What John is showing is his way of getting a perfectly straight edge on a really long board. You will notice the "black" accessory at the end of the slider, it is called a trimming shoe. It basicly is a piece of metal that kind acts like a "spring loaded clamp" when you jamb a piece of wood under it, it holds down the wood. He does not have a clamp on the other end though and uses his hands to keep the board down on the slider as he pushes it through the cut. What you do not see is the slots in the sliding table. These slots accept what are called eccentric clamps (clamps on big posts that slide up and down and then lock down). I use one clamp at either end instead of the trimming shoe.

Now if he had face jointed one side first and then "jointed it " as he is showing (with that freshly face joint face down on the slider) he would now have two perfectly square edges in no time at all on a very long board.

[Chris Pasko]

A great advantage of sliders! I like being able to straight rip a natural edge board.

Do you have the 10' slider John?

[Roy Wall]

Nice work.........!

SO, to rip it to width..........use the fence like a regular American TS????

[Steve Rowe]

Nice work.........!

SO, to rip it to width..........use the fence like a regular American TS????
Roy - you could but there are other safer and more accurate options available. If ripping narrow stock, I basically clamp home made stops in the slots of the slider and rip with the slider. If wider, I can use my second crosscut fence stop and the main crosscut fence and use the slider. There are also parallel fence assemblies that you can attach to the slider (I just don't have them). Either way, I do all the ripping using the slider.

[Lee DeRaud]

Lee, that black thing (shoe) in the front supports that end of the board and you can use a clamp at the back if you choose, although it's not always necessary as your hand can also act as the clamp at the rear since you're holding the slider anyway to push through the cut. You would be surprised at how much clamping pressure you can apply with your hands in this situation!I'll take your word for it, but it sure looks like the board is free to move sideways at the front end and I'm not sure I'd want to trust my grip not to move the board 1/32" or so at some point during that long a cut.

Somewhat unrelated question: what do you reference to for repeated cuts in this mode?

[Chris Pasko]

I'll take your word for it, but it sure looks like the board is free to move sideways at the front end and I'm not sure I'd want to trust my grip not to move the board 1/32" or so at some point during that long a cut.

Somewhat unrelated question: what do you reference to for repeated cuts in this mode?

On the front end (I assume you mean the end closest to the blade) it has a "rip shoe". You jam the wood up under that shoe and it holds the board from moving. I am not sure what John is using on the operator end to hold the board from moving.

[Charlie Plesums]

I just ripped the first edge of about 20 boards on the slider, since it was faster than using the jointer to straighten the edges on some rough lumber.

Being the usual contrary kind of person, I use the miter fence to push the board through so I can be at the middle beside the blade. I set the stop on the miter fence to hold the width at the trailing end. I use an eccentric clamp on the leading end to hold that firm, and use myself in the middle to be sure neither of these slip. If the board is really bad, I drop a chalk line to determine the optimum position of the cut. Although I have a shoe, I don't usually bother to use it, since the other holders are already mounted.

Once I have a good straight side, I normally make the second cut - to the final width - against the rip fence, rather than using the slider.

I find that a reasonably adjusted saw with a good blade can make an edge as good as a jointer, ready for sanding or gluing, and is FAR faster than multiple jointer passes. I don't always avoid the jointer... just have another option to choose.

[Mark Singer]

John,

Thanks....this very educational for me....I need to know more about the sliding saws to know if it makes sense for my shop...very helpful!

[Ian Barley]

I never work with boards that long but use exactly this technique all the time. I guess that I edge joint thousands of boards every year. For what the experience is worth Lee - I guess that I end up with a touch of movement on about 1% of those boards. For me it is not a big issue 'cos at this point I am not too concerned about dimensions - just straightness. I just run the board through again.

Using this technique is quicker than a jointer and saves me having to have the shop space for that machine. As far as I am concerned this is one of the most important benefits that the sliding table gives.

[John Renzetti]

Hi, The slider on this saw is a little over 9'. I could have got a little more than 114" of length but I felt that was pushing things. As it was I was using hand pressure. Normally I would use an air clamp but realized at the last minute that I needed another fitting on the clamp. Since this board was flat I just used hand pressure and it worked fine.
I had two boards like this that I wanted to rip to get some trim pieces that would dress out to 3.5" wide. What I like to do is rip oversize and then run the boards on edge through the planer for the final dimensioning as the final procedure after face and edge jointing on the jointer then the other face on the planer.
Although no clamp was used here, if the board was not flat or say very thick, I would definetly use a clamp.
Hope this info was helpful to everybody.
take care,
John

[lloyd morris]

John,

Thanks for the excellent pictures and information about your Euroslider in use.
Without the perspective of having seen such a great saw up close it is very helpful in understanding it's advantages and how it it used efficiently and with a precise result.

It looks as if you can essentially mill lumber accurately up to that which can be cut by the size of the blade and will fit on the slider. How large a piece of lumber can you cut rip or cross cut? Also how precise would the strip you ripped in the picture be over it's length? Does it require constant adjustments or a lot of maintenance to keep your saw cutting this well?

Sorry for all the basic questions.

Thanks again,

Lloyd

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Sure is a nice saw. Having seen Steve Jenkin's Altendorf, I can say that's the size TS to have!!!

[Bob Borzelleri]

John...


From the photos, it appears we have similar tastes in shop heaters and air conditioners.

...Bob

[John Renzetti]

Hi Lloyd, Taking a break from working outside. It's hot and humid out there.
I don't want to get into specific brands etc. That detracts from what we're trying to do here.
Any good Eurosaw should be able to be setup to give you at least .004" accuracy per meter of slider. You can tweak them more and get them to .002" per meter.
I don't precision rip boards on the slider. I've done it and it works, but I just like my own technque better. I do know guys that do and I've been told that they have ripped thin strips of veneer for edgebanding of 2-3mm thick with great accuracy and consistancy.
All machines require checking and regular maintenance. I will do a quick 5 sided cut to check for squareness prior to cutting up a panel. I also double check the lockdowns on the fence and outrigger. You never know when your wife or yourself will inadvertantly walk into that big fence.
The big benefit of a saw like this is the accuracy you get when cutting panels. The accuracy is needed if doing frameless cabinets and employing the European 32mm system.
Take care,
John

[lou sansone]

thanks john for your post. one thing that we can always count on is your fairness to the issue. it is refressing and really helps one take in the message that you are trying to get across. I am still mulling over my TS suituation. the sliders look interesting, but I really don't like messing with my outfeed table / work bench setup that works for me pretty well. I have been looking at the shorter sliders that seem like a good compromise for the solid wood processing/ non panel type of work that I do.


lou

[Mike Cutler]

John. Nice post. I like looking at the capabilities of the "euro" style sliders, and compare them to the operations of "conventional" shop machines.
It would be really nice to be able to rip the edge on a board like that, talk about speeding up the jointing process.
I can't say that I would ever own a saw that big, I don't really have the room. Something on a slightly smaller scale tho'....

Paul. I don't think that you're "nuts" for championing the "european style tablesaw", I think it's very fortunate that you were afforded the opportunity to explore this alternative, and that you had the foresight to jump in, so to speak. Everyone has the opportunity to learn from your experience, if they so chose.

Once again. Nice post, very informative

[Mark Singer]

Mike,

I don't know if you caught it, but I showed a technique using an aluminium extruded storefront section to "straight line" on the (conventional) tablesaw. If your interested it is in my door making post....one screw to hold it and you are ready to rip...scroll down to the bottom ...there is a pic or 2 ...It works real well and saves time.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22781&highlight=balboa

John. Nice post. I like looking at the capabilities of the "euro" style sliders, and compare them to the operations of "conventional" shop machines.
It would be really nice to be able to rip the edge on a board like that, talk about speeding up the jointing process.
I can't say that I would ever own a saw that big, I don't really have the room. Something on a slightly smaller scale tho'....

Paul. I don't think that you're "nuts" for championing the "european style tablesaw", I think it's very fortunate that you were afforded the opportunity to explore this alternative, and that you had the foresight to jump in, so to speak. Everyone has the opportunity to learn from your experience, if they so chose.

Once again. Nice post, very informative

[Mike Cutler]

I musta' missed that part of the post. That's a pretty slick idea. I'm going to have to find me a piece of extruded aluminum, and fab up something similar.
Thanks Mark. :cool:

[Charlie Plesums]

...All machines require checking and regular maintenance. I will do a quick 5 sided cut to check for squareness prior to cutting up a panel...
John
How often do you find the machine needs adjustment when doing that test cut? I usually just check the width of both ends of longer panels, and haven't had to adjust the angle of the fence in almost 8 months, but my casual test isn't as good as a 5 sided cut. Do you think I need to test more often?


...The big benefit of a saw like this is the accuracy you get when cutting panels.
John
Not only am I embarrased by what I used to think was good accuracy on my regular table saw, compared to the accuracy I now easily get with the slider, but I would also include a tremendous increase in productivity as an additional advantage. I had finally accepted 20 minutes as the time to make a first "finished" cut on a full sheet of plywood (working alone, doing the shallow cut on the bottom to avoid tear out, doing a second thru cut in the same kerf, etc.). The first big project with the slider (a set of bookcases), I cut 21 finished pieces from two sheets of plywood, and realized that it had taken 20 minutes for all 21 pieces.

Even though I recently retired to full time woodworking, my wife's reaction was that I should have bought it 30 years ago, when I was redoing kitchens, etc., in our earlier houses. The combo machine is huge, but it does fit in our garage, and with ten minutes effort, we can still get one car in the garage.

[Chris Padilla]

John,

Is that window open for a reason...gotta hang some of the slider and board out of it? hahaha :D Sorry, couldn't resist.... Awesome slider, BTW....

[Keith Hooks]

Are there manuals online that would demonstrate how these machines operate? It's not obvious to me how you'd cut panels to size or crosscut boards, especially if there are different ways to do each task.

It would be nice to see an article in one of the popular woodworking magazines too. I've never used one, but I'd like to learn more. I have seen reviews of combination machines, but not an overview of how these things work.

[Sam Blasco]

...I will do a quick 5 sided cut to check for squareness prior to cutting up a panel. I also double check the lockdowns on the fence and outrigger. You never know when your wife or yourself will inadvertantly walk into that big fence...

I will do the 5 sided cut every six months or so for grins. There is another cut test that is nearly as accurate and much quicker, and I do this before any major panel or door job, using something inexpensive and stable, like MDF.

The 3 sided cut: I use a 36"-48", relatively square panel. 1) Cut one edge (this is now your reference edge). 2) Put the reference edge against the crosscut fence and cut edge #2. 3) Flip the panel so that the face-up side is now the face-down side. With the same reference edge against the fence, now cut edge #3. Measure the distance between edges #2 & #3 at both ends. If they are the same you are good to go. It hasn't let me down yet, and there are only 3 chances for human error to come into play. This method was taught to me by a Stiles Tech about 16 years ago when he was doing a service call on our biggest slider.

[Charlie Plesums]

Are there manuals online that would demonstrate how these machines operate? It's not obvious to me how you'd cut panels to size or crosscut boards, especially if there are different ways to do each task.

It would be nice to see an article in one of the popular woodworking magazines too. I've never used one, but I'd like to learn more. I have seen reviews of combination machines, but not an overview of how these things work.

The manuals that come with any of the machines are terrible... most are written in 5 languages or more, way too brief, and use terminology that only a translator understands. When I was choosing my machine, I found complaints about the poor manuals on every vendor's forum.

There was a pretty good product review of the small versions of these machines in Fine Woodworking, January/February 2003, Page 52-59. If you cannot find a copy drop me a note.

Let me try a very quick overview... The basic concept of all the European machines is that you work "beside" the blade, not behind the blade. Kickbacks are rare if you work right (they don't happen if you are perfect, but...). At the side of the machine, you are not in the line of fire if there is a kickback.

The slider is a table around a foot wide that is one or two hundredths of an inch above the saw table, on a track that runs absolutely parallel to the blade. My slider is 8 1/2 feet long, so I can rip the full length of a sheet of plywood, and clear the blade. Since the whole length of the slider goes by the blade, I have a clear area 17 feet long - the length of my garage...er... shop. Sliders are available from about 5 feet to 12 feet long. Various clamps and stops help hold the work in place on the slider, if necessary, since the table moves, and the work stays in place on the table.

A foot wide slider isn't enough to balance a sheet of plywood, so my slider has an "outrigger" a couple feet wide that comes out from the side of the slider about 5 feet. The outrigger has a massive support arm so that it remains stable, under heavy load, as it moves with the slider. That outrigger balances a full 4 x 8 sheet on the slider, so that I can trim the edge (either the end or side) of a full sheet, or make a final cut wherever. The outrigger has a cross cut fence that is about 6 feet long, and mine telescopes to about 10 1/2 feet - the angle of this fence is aligned absolutely perpendicular to the blade, and is a major contributor to the accuracy of cross-cuts on either sheet goods or regular lumber. I can take my outrigger off or put it back on in about a minute, if I need shop room, such as for assembling cabinets. It retains the calibration despite removal/replacenent.

Many sliders have an additional "miter fence" - like a miniature outrigger, with a fence that is "merely" 3 feet long. My miter fence has precise stops at the common angles, and can be set at odd angles to a fraction of a degree.

My combination machine also has a shaper, and the slider can also be used to guide work through the shaper.

Hope this helps.