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View Full Version : Wanted for Hire! Iraq Insurgents or at least an excavator!



Dev Emch
08-28-2005, 4:11 PM
The problem with a shop in the sticks of a yuppie-fied high country village is that you cannt find an excavator when you need one.:mad:

I lost the main power supply to my shop. Line Down Condition! After examining the damage, its pretty clear. The previous owner burried THHN cable 4 inch below grade and covered the wires with rocks and loose fill dirt. Service lasted over 40 years but has finally gone out. Total run is 200 feet. SOme through a huge rock pile. Lots of granite and decomposed granite.

Every backhoe in our community is tied up full time until about thanksgiving. ITs the mad rush to get foundations dug and electrical and water lines in the ground before the frost comes!

The best I can do is to rent a mini track hoe about mid september! Not good enough! So now we get to dig a 200 foot, 2 to 3 foot ditch through rocks and rock encrusted soil with nothing more than a pick and a shovel. I forgot what a "pleasant" sensation it is to get this much exercise!:rolleyes: Cancel the gym membership and sell the stairmaster and return the theigh reducing cream... this is how you loose weight in a hurry!

Now, if I can only figure out how to con the insurgents in placing some of those IED devices in the rock piles.:D Life is not fair! These guys get to play with explosives in a destructive way and we are not allowed to play with them at all in a constructive way. What a total waste of good explosvies!

Jim Becker
08-28-2005, 5:35 PM
Can you rent a tractor with a backhoe attached? Check with tractor dealers and rent-a-centers. Or perhaps a farmer could use a little extra income...

I dug the trench for the electrical update to my shop a couple years ago with my small Kubota and its backhoe, although admittedly not in rock! Took a lot longer than a big machine...about 3 hours for 100 feet since I had just received the machine the day before and was "learning on the job". But it was good I had the machine as the ditchwitch the electrican brought broke about 3' into the job. :)

Jim Dunn
08-28-2005, 8:04 PM
Why so deep?? Is it a code thing? You should be able to bury conduit no more than 6" and that would be sufficient. Unless of course you plan to dig up the yard in the future. You could take some pictures and save the expense of hiring the line located if you ever decide to do any digging. Just my .02

Jim Becker
08-28-2005, 8:15 PM
Jim, code says a minimum of 18" for conduit...

Chris Pasko
08-28-2005, 9:08 PM
Also a skid steer with a ditch witch attachment would work unless you have huge slabs of rock. They are very fast and efficient, and much more pleasant to use then the walk behinds.

Steve Clardy
08-28-2005, 9:16 PM
Lo. Just lay your conduit with wire in it on the ground till the backhoe or trackhoe can show up. Just leave a little extra.

Jim Dunn
08-28-2005, 9:21 PM
Code in Missouri is 0" for conduit. Looking at it from the stand point that conduit runs up the outside of a building without any additional protection is where that comes from. Course rocks and such should be taken into extreme consideration.

Rob Russell
08-29-2005, 7:36 AM
Code in Missouri is 0" for conduit. Looking at it from the stand point that conduit runs up the outside of a building without any additional protection is where that comes from. Course rocks and such should be taken into extreme consideration.

That means Missouri modified the National Electric Code (NEC) as adopted in your state. Jim B. is correct, at least in terms of the base NEC, that conduit needs to be buried 18" deep, although that's for nonmetallic raceways. Rigid Metal Conduit or Intermediate Metal Conduit only needs to be 6" deep.

Dev Emch
08-29-2005, 11:07 AM
You guys are right. Every area has its own thing when it comes to code. I live outside the city limits and we are under the pure NEC only. They require 18 in minimum of cover from the TOP of the conduit to grade. Dig 18 in and your not deep enough!

They also require that you follow standard fill requirements for conduit. But over long runs using heavy wire, you find that its massively easier to just super fat conduit. My total run is about 200 feet and I need to minimize the "soft service" issue I have had in the past. That is, I realize a significant voltage drop during machine start up due to the start up current acting over such a long distance on wire that was too small. Right now, the wire is/was 1/0 copper. I am replacing it with 3/0 or 4/0 copper with a reduced neutral. This will be housed in 3 in PVC schedule 40.

I have tried to find a 3 pt backhoe with and without the tractor. No Luck. Also tried the skid steer route esp. through the bobcat guys. They are the ones with a bobcat excavator available in about 2 wks. Same deal.

Nope, I am in the wrong place at the wrong time. In about 1 to 2 months, these guys will have nothing to do until next May! In fact, a massive amount of all construction and cabinet business happens during the summer season. Its dead pants during the winter months. That is why I usually focus more on my hand tool business during that period.:D

Jim Becker
08-29-2005, 11:09 AM
Don't you need to use schedule 80 conduit, Dev?

Ken Garlock
08-29-2005, 11:26 AM
Dev, I would make the neutral the same size as the hot wires. Remember, the neutral will carry current for all your 120V tools.

Rob Russell
08-29-2005, 11:37 AM
Jim,

It's my understanding that you need to use Schedule 80 where it's subject to physical damage, like being whipped by a weed-whacker. Buried it's no longer subject to damage.

Dev,

To get your shop up and runnning, I'd run the conduit a couple of feet away from where the trench will be. I'd use Schedule 80 because it'll be sitting out for 2 months.

I'd go with the 4/0 copper over the 3/0 to really minimize voltage drop. You might also check out the price on 300 MCM aluminum - it could be significantly cheaper than the copper. I just priced 6/3 NM (copper, good for 55 amps) vs. #4 SER (aluminum, same rating) but there isn't a #4 SER. The price on #2 SER (aluminum, good for 75-90 amps) was 2/3 the cost of the smaller copper-based 6/3 NM. Based on the length of run and conductor sizes you have, there could be a big difference in conductor costs.

Rob

Kurt Voss
08-29-2005, 5:49 PM
Jim,

...I just priced 6/3 NM (copper, good for 55 amps) vs. #4 SER (aluminum, same rating) but there isn't a #4 SER. The price on #2 SER (aluminum, good for 75-90 amps) was 2/3 the cost of the smaller copper-based 6/3 NM. Based on the length of run and conductor sizes you have, there could be a big difference in conductor costs.

Rob

Just curious, what sort of price/foot were you seeing for these different cable types?

Rob Russell
08-29-2005, 9:46 PM
Just curious, what sort of price/foot were you seeing for these different cable types?

6/3 NM, which is good for 55 amps because it's NM cable andyou must use the 60 degree columnin the ampacity table - $1.57.
2-2-2-4 SER, which is good for 75 amps (can really use it for 90, but 75 amps is from the 60 degree column in the ampacity table to use as a direct comparison to the NM) - $1.05.

So, the aluminum SER which has a higher ampacity rating and is (1.57-1.05)/1.57 = 33% cheaper.

The prices on copper have gone up significantly, but the prices on aluminum haven't. One reason is that copper is used for all of the general circuit wiring, so the demand is much higher. Aluminum is just used for things like feeders.

Kelly C. Hanna
08-29-2005, 10:21 PM
Sorry to hear that Dev....If I were closer I'd come help ya dig for while! That's bad when you can't rent a machine locally. Hope you get someone to come help soon!!

Michael Perata
08-29-2005, 10:51 PM
Aluminum is just used for things like feeders.

I have always used SER feeds for inter-panel connections and to major appliances where I could get a clean tight connection. ALWAYS use an electrical anti-oxidant.

Saved about $50 per house. (1980 dollars)

Rob Russell
08-29-2005, 11:12 PM
I have always used SER feeds for inter-panel connections and to major appliances where I could get a clean tight connection. ALWAYS use an electrical anti-oxidant.

Saved about $50 per house. (1980 dollars)

I mentioned SER as feeders.

Try to find aluminum cable for branch circuit wiring now. Aluminum was used a lot back in the 80's, but that practice was discontinued because of the house fires that the aluminum wiring caused.

Don Baer
08-29-2005, 11:17 PM
Dev;
I know that you don't mean any malice and your post was only in fun but ever since I first saw it this AM I have been troubled with it. I have a son who is serving over there and don't see the humor in it. Please in the future don't make light of a situation where our young men and women are putting themselves in harms way.

Thanks

Dev Emch
08-30-2005, 1:05 PM
The NEC allows sched 40 to be used under ground and sched 80 to be used above ground. You should also bed the conduit in nice soft dirt and eleminate all sharp rocks including the bottome of the ditch if blasting has been done. The depth is to protect the conduit from heavy loads such as semis and concrete mixers. I have seen a concrete mixer drive over a sched 40 conduit about 1 foot under grround and crack it! The good news is the the new run is placed in such a way that concrete trucks and crane trucks can not drive over it with ease. Even so, I may just go with shed 80 for a bit of extra protection. I really dont wish to ever see this conduit again!

As for laying the wire in conduit on the ground, that will not work. The power company and county inspection guys are aware of this problem and I can get into a heap of trouble for doing this. My problem is that this shop is my immediate livihood and a line down condition means either delays or cancellations both of which are putting a kabash on the income stream.:mad: Nobody in their right mind would attempt this job with picks, rock drills, hammers and shovels unless there was a real reason for doing it. As it stands, I am about 40 percent done. A few sticks of dynamite would surely come in handy in the last section of 30 feet. Here we ran into counter top grade bassalt gray granite. Typical rocky mountain stuff. There are only two powder guys in our town and they both are excavators. Both have said that they will not blast the ditch unless they get the whole ditch contract complete! But they are taking reservations for the week following Thanksgiving!

Thanks for the sympathy from you guys.:) I think its more important to see how this project goes for the SMCers. We get to look at shop grade power installations and how to get power to the shops. As the sun comes up in the morning, one of you guys will face this project in the future. Hopefully everything I have gone through will be of use for other SMCers. I know that getting power and subpanels into shops has often been a subject of confusion and frustration. Hopefully this project will act as an example of what to do and what not do.

Dev Emch
08-30-2005, 1:14 PM
By the way, Michael is right. Aluminum does "rust" or oxidize. Although its surface limited, Aluminum Oxide is an insulator and can really cause problems in getting the electrons through the connection. So always make sure you use an anti-oxidinzing agent on the connections when dealing with Aluminum.

Dev Emch
08-30-2005, 1:26 PM
Don... no mallace intended. As a child, I remember my Dad being able to buy dynamite and using it for ranching jobs such as blasting tree stumps. I also recall when we installed the private water mains for the 20 homes on our private water company. I was about 5 or 6 years old. The guy used a backhoe that looked more like an open tractor with two seats than the fancy CASE units today. The dump truck was built from a very hold MAC truck whose body didnt have a straight section on it! Circa 1940 to 1950. The guy had placed about 14 sticks of dynamite into a series of drill holes and wired this stuff up. Of couse, my brother and I were just interested in getting that colored blasting wire,:D So the three of us were by the plunger and he pushed the plunger down. HOLY COW! I have never seen anything like this before in my life. It threw a huge shower of rocks some of which were the size of melons into the air. The guy doing the work grabed my brother and me and threw himself ontop of us and put his arms over his head. Rocks were landing all around us! This was typical of the installation of water lines. Getting down to 6 feet has always required blasting. Today, its next to impossible to get any blasting work done and forget about buying any. New rules and licenses and what not prevent that. But the rocks are still here. It just makes me mad to see what is going on elsewhere and the rules are just keeping the honest folks honest. My comment was not aimed at humor... rather a reflection of the anger and pain I feel over the total picture.

Rob Russell
08-30-2005, 1:43 PM
Dev,

If you're literally "out of the water" right now, would it make sense to rent a generator capable of running your shop until you can get the power problems taken care of permanently?

Rob

Dev Emch
08-30-2005, 2:11 PM
I actually thought about that. But then I also realized that this is chance to get the new service panels switched over. I have delayed doing this because of this very ditch project. Every cloud has a silver lining. So this issue is just forcing me to dig the ditch and move the service now instead of later. Besides, I dont even want to see the size of a generator that I would need to run my shop. Probably some big hunkin thing with a 6 cylinder diesel motor on it.:D Or how about one of those Fairbanks Morse Diesel engines that have a catwalk on them. Something like this maybe...

Ian Barley
08-30-2005, 2:47 PM
Just so that Don doesn't appear as a lone voice - I too consider the title to this thread to be in poor taste.

Andy Hoyt
08-31-2005, 9:03 PM
Don't know about you and yours, but I always have to justify tool purchases to you know who. Seems to me that here's an opportunity just panting to be exploited. :cool:

Matthew Chamberlin
09-06-2010, 1:33 PM
Dev;
I know that you don't mean any malice and your post was only in fun but ever since I first saw it this AM I have been troubled with it. I have a son who is serving over there and don't see the humor in it. Please in the future don't make light of a situation where our young men and women are putting themselves in harms way.

Thanks


I see no harm, or how this post can even be offensive. I was in Iraq in 07/08, and a many of my friends are there now.

Sometimes i think people try and find things to be upset about. No offense intended.

Steve Clardy
09-06-2010, 2:08 PM
Replying to a 5 year old post. ;)

Van Huskey
09-06-2010, 2:09 PM
I see no harm, or how this post can even be offensive. I was in Iraq in 07/08, and a many of my friends are there now.

Sometimes i think people try and find things to be upset about. No offense intended.


Having been in Iraq (91) and several other warm spots around the world, I agree 100%.

Having been a combat engineer platoon leader with explosives and explosive clearing as our bread and butter I would suggest something that might work much better. Try a mine clearing line charge or MCLC (not) available at your local Army surplus store. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICLIC

Having dealt with quite a bit of explosives I think they should be highly regulated even outside the role of preventing sinister action. They really aren't for the untrained.


In the end your power situation does suck. Have you tried the utility companies? The water company here does trenching, road bores and the like and it isn't very expensive at least when you consider what the costs of buying and maintaining a machine are along with good operator costs.

Ken Fitzgerald
09-06-2010, 3:24 PM
Hey.....this thread is 5 years old.

I'll bet the OP got his power situation fixed..:confused::D

Matthew Chamberlin
09-06-2010, 3:26 PM
Replying to a 5 year old post. ;)


Well i Just feel smart now!:p I seem to have gotten my "new post" tab confused the search i did..... I guess it's good i get labor day off, and i'm not at work

Stephen Cherry
09-06-2010, 3:54 PM
Hey.....this thread is 5 years old.

I'll bet the OP got his power situation fixed..:confused::D
Does Dev Emch still post to this site? I've ran across his name alot in searches, and it seemed like he knew a lot of things about a lot of stuff.

Bruce Page
09-06-2010, 4:05 PM
Does Dev Emch still post to this site? I've ran across his name alot in searches, and it seemed like he knew a lot of things about a lot of stuff.

It has been a little over 2 years since Dev last visited SMC. He was very knowledgeable about a lot of subjects, especially about old machinery.
When I first saw this post I thought he had found us again.

Van Huskey
09-06-2010, 5:52 PM
Maybe he can't post because he has no power...


I got suckered... :o

Steve Clardy
09-06-2010, 11:07 PM
Hey.....this thread is 5 years old.

I'll bet the OP got his power situation fixed..:confused::D

Probably so.


Well i Just feel smart now!:p I seem to have gotten my "new post" tab confused the search i did..... I guess it's good i get labor day off, and i'm not at work

Lol. :D

I have an occasional brain fart also. Much too often here lately. :o

Rollie Meyers
09-07-2010, 12:22 AM
5 year old thread or not, rigid or IMC steel conduit is code compliant w/ 6" of cover but is more costly & harder to work with & there is major corrosion issues in some areas, but there is Robroy* or Ocal* for that...

* coated conduit.

David Hostetler
09-07-2010, 1:11 AM
Hey.....this thread is 5 years old.

I'll bet the OP got his power situation fixed..:confused::D

Okay I was going to leave this thread alone, but I just have to say... Maybe not. He might have been on the early side of the economic down turn, and been broke for the last 5 years... Not extremely likely, but who knows?

Mitchell Andrus
09-07-2010, 8:56 AM
Okay I was going to leave this thread alone, but I just have to say... Maybe not. He might have been on the early side of the economic down turn, and been broke for the last 5 years... Not extremely likely, but who knows?


Maybe he went solar.

Mr. Fusion.

Bike on a stand. OOOOOOH...... found him: (Guess he
's too busy to post here anymore)
.

eugene thomas
09-07-2010, 11:28 AM
living out in the sticks can suck for small business with not to much walk in traffic but when comes to codes. when i installed the electrical to my property(grage and hose) just called the county building inspector and after his five minutes of time had all needed to do the job. I knew the basics but seems every electric company seems to have their own requirements for grounding layout.

Chris Padilla
09-07-2010, 11:31 AM
Replying to a 5 year old post. ;)

Well lookie what the cat dragged in...welcome back, Bro!! :D

Steve Clardy
09-11-2010, 3:48 PM
Well lookie what the cat dragged in...welcome back, Bro!! :D

Thanks bro. Been busy with other things in life.

Jim Finn
09-11-2010, 5:27 PM
SO..... fve years ago the economy was so good that one had to wait months for a contractor to show up? Are we better off now than we were five years ago?
Yes the tread is 5 years old but ,then ,so is my Table saw and it is still pertinent. Ha ha.