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Raphael Weil
10-12-2015, 1:51 PM
Hi all,

I have a call with Epilog tomorrow, and hope to have one soon with Trotec and Universal. I believe the bulk of my latest business applications will involve rastering hard woods. My designs will be quite intricate, and I'm very keen on software that will allow me to play with varying depths based on the tones of grey in my designs. I guess my question is pretty simple, which of those big 3 companies will allow me to execute that the best? I suppose I care about:

-precision
-speed
-laser's ability to distinguish between the grey's
-ease of use

Thanks a lot, I tried looking back at a lot of old threads that compared them, but couldn't find much on this very specific requirement.

Dan Hintz
10-12-2015, 4:38 PM
Precision (fine detail) will be best with an RF laser (i.e., metal tube), and I would challenge anyone to notice a significant difference between any of the major brands. Best speed will come from most Trotecs, some of the newest systems from ULS and Epilog (I think they both have a fast system), and I think GCC (anyone confirm?). Ease of use will come from any Western-made software as its better compared to anything the Chinese have, by leaps and bounds. Gray level comes back to RF tubes as the frequency control is so much tighter.

Ross Moshinsky
10-12-2015, 4:42 PM
My Gravograph LS100 30W machine does a better job engraving than my ULS PLS6.60 w/ 60W tube. It's faster and the detail is simply better.

Lee DeRaud
10-12-2015, 4:46 PM
Precision (fine detail) will be best with an RF laser (i.e., metal tube), and I would challenge anyone to notice a significant difference between any of the major brands.What he said. You're working with wood: any decent laser has better lateral (X/Y) precision than the medium will support.

Depth (Z) precision is going to be relatively poor even for a fixed gray level, because of the inherent density variations across the workpiece.

Dan Hintz
10-12-2015, 5:04 PM
What he said. You're working with wood: any decent laser has better lateral (X/Y) precision than the medium will support.

Depth (Z) precision is going to be relatively poor even for a fixed gray level, because of the inherent density variations across the workpiece.

And all of my comments are to be taken in the general case... I wasn't considering the substrate here. Lee's comments about the varying density and low-resolution of wood are very important, if that's your one and only substrate. If you plan to branch out, consider the substrates you don't even know about yet...

Raphael Weil
10-12-2015, 9:14 PM
So so far Trotec is going to do it faster, and all the NA machine will do what I want otherwise. How's the software compare between the Trotec and Epilog in terms of quality? I'm not really afraid of the softwares since I use an FSL now. I just want the one that's the least buggy and the most feature rich.

Gary Hair
10-13-2015, 12:16 AM
I can't compare Trotec and Epilog since I don't have an Epilog, but I can say that the Trotec software, Job Control X, is amazingly feature rich and fairly easy to use. The basics are very easy and there is so much more beyond the basics that would just take a little time to learn and use effectively. I have said it before - you won't go wrong with either machine, but I feel like I made the best decision possible for me and my business, to go with Trotec.

Jack Clague
10-13-2015, 1:25 AM
I don't own or have not used any other brand but I can get some stupidly fine details on my Trotec

I have not tried much grayscale work yet but its doable with Job control

the below were all done at 100% speed, the phone only took 4 min to engrave at 600dpi


323231323232323233323234

Kev Williams
10-13-2015, 1:38 AM
First of all-- Note Gary's signature, the 'space available' section...
That space is available because it's now in MY signature! :)

I've been needing and looking for a little more firepower, and Gary had just what I was needing: a big table (38x20), RF laser (Synrad), fast (80 ips), capable of cylinder work (yes!), not beat to death AND a good deal. The GCC Explorer was delivered today- in a crate from hell that he built for it (by the way Gar, the total weight came in at 675!) -- I immediately decided this thing was NOT going downstairs as I originally planned, so I cleared out a space for it in my garage. After my usual 'nothing I ever hook up to a computer works right the first time' escapades, I finally got the drivers to work, got 'er fired up, did a few tests, and around 8pm I put it to work engraving SS plates. By the time I close up for the night, it'll have paid for its shipping costs! :D

Many thanks to Gary for what's been a great exchange of machinery and entertaining emails!

SO-- that all said, back to the original topic, 'the big 3'... how the 'the big 3 + maybe 2'... Seems Ross and I are the only egregious users of Gravograph equipment. I think he'll agree with me they're wonderful machines. It IS a shame their rep for customer service stinks, don't have much answer for that, except to say that in over 40 years, with all the Gravo (NH) machines and equipment I've owned, I've only needed their CS 3 times- warrantee on the C2000 in 1982 (better XY board was installed), warrantee belt replacement on the LS900 at 2 weeks old, and an overnight shipping of a rebuilt power supply for the LS900 about 4 years ago. And the CS was just fine.

And for the '2' of plus 2, Dan mentioned GCC above-- After only a few hours with it, I'm quite impressed. These things have servo motors! Dead quiet, all I hear are the fans; it runs very fast, and something I didn't know about servos, you can move the laser head around BY HAND, to aim the red dot at whatever spot you want, and the XY coordinates will be on the display! MUCH faster than slewing the head around with the jog buttons! One day isn't much of an acid test, but Gary used it for several years, but you'd never know it. Customer service, no clue... This machine is replacing my little ULS, and speaking of workhorses- going on 19 years old, I've owned it for almost 14 of those years, and I bought it from my Gravo rep who hauled it all over the country as his demo machine. It's never had a breakdown. My brother in law is buying it from me, and now I can send work home with him, so it'll STILL make me money!

Finally, I've never even seen a Trotec or Epilog, but there's sure a lot of happy owners of them on this board!

Short version: hard to go wrong with any metal laser... :)

Scott Shepherd
10-13-2015, 8:17 AM
After only a few hours with it, I'm quite impressed. These things have servo motors! Dead quiet, all I hear are the fans; it runs very fast, and something I didn't know about servos, you can move the laser head around BY HAND, to aim the red dot at whatever spot you want, and the XY coordinates will be on the display! MUCH faster than slewing the head around with the jog buttons! One day isn't much of an acid test, but Gary used it for several years, but you'd never know it.

Kev, surely you aren't suggesting that the newer machine has features and options that make your workflow better and allow for more production, are you? ;) Now, imagine a 2015 machine :p

Kev Williams
10-13-2015, 10:48 AM
My 'newer machine' is 10 years old, 'different machine' is a more apt description. :)

I'm going to have to make a video of exactly how my old ancient machines (and old ancient me) get along just fine without 'job control'. Some of you may be surprised at the capabilities of Gravograph machines & software. You might even get a kick out of how fast I can get 7 different machines running jobs, all from 1 computer... ;)

Scott Shepherd
10-13-2015, 11:03 AM
My 'newer machine' is 10 years old, 'different machine' is a more apt description. :)

I'm going to have to make a video of exactly how my old ancient machines (and old ancient me) get along just fine without 'job control'. Some of you may be surprised at the capabilities of Gravograph machines & software. You might even get a kick out of how fast I can get 7 different machines running jobs, all from 1 computer... ;)


And we'll do the same, we'll show you how we only need 1 machine to do the work of 7 :p

Gary Hair
10-13-2015, 11:34 AM
in a crate from hell that he built for it
And you should have enough material in the crate to build a small shop with plenty of room to house the new laser...


(by the way Gar, the total weight came in at 675!)
Must have been all the screws :)

Kev Williams
10-13-2015, 1:07 PM
Most of your crate is doing pallet duty on the driveway, got more work than will fit in the garage! ;)

Matt McCoy
10-13-2015, 1:16 PM
My 'newer machine' is 10 years old, 'different machine' is a more apt description. :)

I'm going to have to make a video of exactly how my old ancient machines (and old ancient me) get along just fine without 'job control'. Some of you may be surprised at the capabilities of Gravograph machines & software. You might even get a kick out of how fast I can get 7 different machines running jobs, all from 1 computer... ;)

Kev: Please make that video. I keep imagining a bunch of machines, stacked on top of each other to the ceiling, with lots of rivets, Frankenstein bolts, duct tape, and steam chugging along as they are powered by a coal-fired dynamo with a collection of Commodore 64s and various typewriters. :)

Seriously, I appreciate your wealth of real-world experience and willingness to share it. It's also entertaining. Don't ever stop doing what you do.

Scott Shepherd
10-13-2015, 1:31 PM
Kev: Please make that video. I keep imagining a bunch of machines, stacked on top of each other to the ceiling, with lots of rivets, Frankenstein bolts, duct tape, and steam chugging along as they are powered by a coal-fired dynamo with a collection of Commodore 64s and various typewriters. :)

Seriously, I appreciate your wealth of real-world experience and willingness to share it. It's also entertaining. Don't ever stop doing what you do.

I worked with a guy in my first real job in a machine shop that went on to start his own shop. We were good friends while working together and stayed in touch over the years. He hated the idea of working for anyone and felt that the vast majority of shop owners in town were complete idiots. He started his own shop and I stopped by to see him one day.

He had a 2,500 sq. ft. shop full of manual machines. 4 of them were running when I was talking to him. He had devised all sorts of switches and solenoids that would automatically advance various screws to dial in deeper cuts, and start itself over, then hit a limit switch when it was done and turn itself off. We're talking old, vintage machines, no cnc controls at all. That guy worked his butt off hustling around that shop and cranked out more work than people with 3 times the employees he had. It was really fascinating to watch.

I lost touch with him a few years ago and noticed his shop up for sale on Craigslist a few months ago. I was sad to see it go.

Matt McCoy
10-13-2015, 1:36 PM
I worked with a guy in my first real job in a machine shop that went on to start his own shop. We were good friends while working together and stayed in touch over the years. He hated the idea of working for anyone and felt that the vast majority of shop owners in town were complete idiots. He started his own shop and I stopped by to see him one day.

He had a 2,500 sq. ft. shop full of manual machines. 4 of them were running when I was talking to him. He had devised all sorts of switches and solenoids that would automatically advance various screws to dial in deeper cuts, and start itself over, then hit a limit switch when it was done and turn itself off. We're talking old, vintage machines, no cnc controls at all. That guy worked his butt off hustling around that shop and cranked out more work than people with 3 times the employees he had. It was really fascinating to watch.

I lost touch with him a few years ago and noticed his shop up for sale on Craigslist a few months ago. I was sad to see it go.


That's great. I like those guys. He might have been right about those other shop owners.

Keith Winter
10-13-2015, 2:07 PM
Kev: Please make that video. I keep imagining a bunch of machines, stacked on top of each other to the ceiling, with lots of rivets, Frankenstein bolts, duct tape, and steam chugging along as they are powered by a coal-fired dynamo with a collection of Commodore 64s and various typewriters. :)

Seriously, I appreciate your wealth of real-world experience and willingness to share it. It's also entertaining. Don't ever stop doing what you do.

Haha this is funny Matt. Exactly what I'm picturing. :p I have no idea how he fits all that equipment in his house?! :D