Mirka Deros, or air-driven ROS?

[Joe Craven]

So I am at a crossroad and I need some advice.

First, my 5" Makita ROS died last night after many years of faithful service.

Second, I hate sanding and want to fulfill this need with the most efficient tool going forward.

Third, I currently have a small compressor, and have mid-/long-term plans to buy something in the 60-80 gallon range to serve as my woodshop continues to grow.

Fourth, eventually I plan to have plans to purchase a dual-drum or (smaller) wide belt sander, and probably a disc/belt sander for edge work. So I hope to be using ROS much less going forward, but I still want efficiency when I need it.

So, do I spend $600 on a Deros, or do I spend $1500 on a new compressor and ~$200 on a good air-driven ROS w/ dust collection capability? If the Deros or something similar is just way better than air-driven solutions, then that's what I want to do.

I'd appreciate any input from anyone who has experience w/ both (or similar) platforms.

TIA,
Joe

[John Sincerbeaux]

I have two Ceros sanders and love them.
Air sanders consume a ton of air. As you say, you will need the bigger compressor which will need 220 a/c and will be a bit noisy. I run my Ceros sanders hooked to my festool vac so I get the power and vac from one quite source. I am in the market for a 60 gal compressor now but don't plan to use it for sanders.

[David Kumm]

I love my dynabrade air sanders but you need a true 5 hp compressor capable of at least 17 cfm actual. If you live in a humid area, you may also need a dryer to go with it. I'm not trying to talk you out of air but a typical HD, Lowes, fast speed aluminum block compressor won't really fill the bill here. Quincy QR, Saylor Beall, Champion, Curtis- 2-3K for new. you can get great used compressors for < 1000 if you look though. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Yep, as Dave says, air sanders take a ton of air and a line dryer is basically a requirement. I've got a 5hp two stage and it keeps up with one okay. Two dynabrades is pretty much not an option but in short bursts of use.

I switched to the Ceros in the shop earlier this year, great units, but they are aggressive. If I'm sanding something picky like walnut I usually grab a Dynabrade since they are less prone to swirls with the abrasives I use. The main reason for the switch was I need a new compressor and they allowed me to hold off blowing $25k on a new one for a while.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Yep, as Dave says, air sanders take a ton of air and a line dryer is basically a requirement. I've got a 5hp two stage and it keeps up with one okay. Two dynabrades is pretty much not an option but in short bursts of use.

I switched to the Ceros in the shop earlier this year, great units, but they are aggressive. If I'm sanding something picky like walnut I usually grab a Dynabrade since they are less prone to swirls with the abrasives I use. The main reason for the switch was I need a new compressor and they allowed me to hold off blowing $25k on a new one for a while.


25k for a new compressor?

[Larry Copas]

I love my Dynabrade and would really hate switching to anything else. It doesn't leave any swirls, never gets hot, and is easy to hold even on vertical surfaces. I have air assisted dust collection but its not all that good. I give it an assist with the shop vac and it gets everything.

It does take a lot of air and I run it with a 10 HP 120 gallon Champion. Doesn't even breath hard and I run it at its slowest operating speed. It was an auction find and I don't have much in it. No idea what the operating cost is to compare to anything else.

[Peter Quinn]

We went through this last year at work. We need 2-3 sanders running simultaneously for production, could probably use more capacity at times. The old electric ROS's were shot, and left too many swirls. Air sanders are the defacto standard fro professionals, but you need big air capacity for that, for us that meant a solid $5k upgrade minimum (compressor that can push 30CFM's, air dryer, etc.) which may have made sense long term but wasn't available in the short term. So they got two ceros sanders. They have been great, nobody wants to even consider going back to a basic electric ROS, the sanding quality is excellent, so far they have been very durable even under heavy use. In a single user shop you might get by with a large 5HP compressor and emptying the tank frequently and a desicator inline, so a bit cheaper, but if you really do a lot of sanding you need a real 17CFM machine, pretty much 7Hp two stage or a small screw jack....and thats going to cost more than $1k.

Another nice thing about the ceros is you can take it with you. I like using a dynabrade but don't really feel shorted with these excellent mirka sanders. I haven't tried the deros so thats an unknown for me.

[Martin Wasner]

25k for a new compressor?

25hp with line dryer and filters. Yep. A CNC needs constant clean air, a dynabrade needs 15.4cfm, then there's everything else in the shop that gobbles compressed air. Door clamps, cut off saws, copers, etc I don't have the cnc yet, but trying to get things in place for it.

[mreza Salav]

If the cost of electricity you use matters, one (air) consumes a LOT more electricity. A 5-10HP compressor vs a small motor on a handheld sander.

[Terry Therneau]

Just a note that Festool has recently introduced a brushless sander that looks very similar to the Ceros. I know no particulars about it, but competition is always good. I have a ceros connected to a Fein vac and am happy with it. (For those $ and given that I'm only a hobbiest, I'd better be happy, cause I'm not changing anytime soon!)

Terry T.

[Joe Craven]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I decided to go w/ the Deros. When I realized that there was a huge gap between what I needed for sanding vs. everything else, it didn't make sense to invest in a 20-CFM compressor. My mother-in-law is a Fin, so at least she'll be happy. :)

[Martin Wasner]

If you don't mind me asking, why did you go with the Deros over the Ceros?

[Joe Calhoon]

We used to use air ROS back when I had a few employees. They will kill 5 -7hp 2 stage compressors in short order. The worst thing without a dryer and if your compressor goes dirty it will play major havoc with any stationary tool connected to the air line. WBS, clamps, boring machines, CNC etc. We finally upgraded to a Kasser but about the same time discovered the Festool sander with the vac. We rarely use the air sander anymore or the downdraft table.

I have heard good things about Mirka and will probably go that way when the Festool wears out.

[Peter Quinn]

We used to use air ROS back when I had a few employees. They will kill 5 -7hp 2 stage compressors in short order. The worst thing without a dryer and if your compressor goes dirty it will play major havoc with any stationary tool connected to the air line. WBS, clamps, boring machines, CNC etc. We finally upgraded to a Kasser but about the same time discovered the Festool sander with the vac. We rarely use the air sander anymore or the downdraft table.

I have heard good things about Mirka and will probably go that way when the Festool wears out.

i love my festool sanders Joe, use them at home exclusively, but IMO the ciros is night and day difference versus the basic electric festool sanders. Ceros behaves much more like an air sander, cuts quicker if desired, extraction is decent, less vibration, comfortable size and weight with paddle switch like a pneumatic. Definetly worth a test drive. Deros looks very similar but no box to drag around.

[guy knight]

looked into ceros and found way to many reviews stating how they break down mainly when used in a commercial shop i would do some searching on that subject before paying out that kind of money

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Peter, that is valuable info to me. Always good to hear from someone with experience with both.

Guy,
They had a interesting discussion about this on W.W. It sounds like Mirka stood behind the problems according to the users there.

[Joe Craven]

If you don't mind me asking, why did you go with the Deros over the Ceros?

I just seemed to me that if I didn't have to deal with that DC converter, things might be a little easier.

[Kelby Van Patten]

I have a one-man hobby woodshop. I use a Dynabrade with a QT Pro 5HP compressor, which can be had for $2k. Here's my experience:

1. The Quincy compressor is more than adequate to run the Dynabrade for as many hours as I wish.

2. The Dynabrade is an excellent sander that, with good dust collection, is pleasant to work with and produces fantastic results.

3. The Quincy is quiet relative to other compressors, but it still makes noise. I'm going to build a noise reducing closet to house it. Other than that, there are absolutely no downsides to the Quincy and Dynabrade combination other than initial cost outlay.

4. Before I bought the Quincy, I had another compressor that died on me. I bought a Mirka Ceros in hopes that I could avoid buying another big compressor. Within a day, it died. I'm sure Mirka would have stood behind it. However, after using it for a day, I realized it was not the right route for me, and I returned it and bought the big compressor. My reasons were both related to performance and to cost:
(a) Performance: I found the Mirka Ceros comfortable to use, but not as comfortable as the Dynabrade. The Dynabrade had slightly less vibration. There were other ways in which I found the Dynabrade more comfortable, but I can't remember them all.
(b) Cost: Buying a huge compressor is a big cost outlay. However, ANY sander that gets regular use will wear out over time. I get about 3-4 years out of a good sander. For the Mirka, that's $500-$600 every 3-4 years. By comparison, the Dynabrade rebuild kits cost less than $100. I've rebuilt mine a couple times over its lifetime, and it always comes out good as new. Also, the compressor has other important uses. I have a wide belt sander with pneumatic oscillation, as well as a multi-router with pneumatic hold-downs. So I would need a compressor anyway, and the Dynabrade is much cheaper to buy and maintain than the Mirka.
(c) Someone mentioned cost of electricity. I live in CA, so that's an issue. But I ran the numbers when making my decision, and the cost of the extra electricity was outweighed by the cost of having to buy a new Mirka every 3-4 years versus the rebuild kit on a Dynabrade (or even buying a new Dynabrade) every 3-4 years.

[jack duren]

$1500 sounds like a lot but its not. Many think the saw is the heart of the shop and would spend much to get the best. Air is often over looked and many get by with less than they need. I use Sioux screw guns,Dynabrades and anything else I can get to work with air.

So my suggestion would be to either put both feet in and get a compressor suitable for multi tasking several air tools or Stick to corded tools.

Amazes me how many think 2k is a suitable compressor.

[Prashun Patel]

The dc converter is great. It keeps the sander light and nimble.

[Martin Wasner]

The dc converter is great. It keeps the sander light and nimble.

That was my thought. The Deros still has it, now it's just in the handle.

[John Sincerbeaux]

$1500 sounds like a lot but its not. Many think the saw is the heart of the shop and would spend much to get the best. Air is often over looked and many get by with less than they need. I use Sioux screw guns,Dynabrades and anything else I can get to work with air.

So my suggestion would be to either put both feet in and get a compressor suitable for multi tasking several air tools or Stick to corded tools.

Amazes me how many think 2k is a suitable compressor.


Jack, at what price range do you find a compressor to be "suitable"? And what compressor do you have? I am deep into researching compressors for my one-man shop and I am finding what is "suitable" is still far away from the best. Seems a 3phase, screw type with cooler and dryer would be pretty nice but those start at around 6k. For me, a suitable compressor would be Quincy or IR 60 gal 2 stage both around $1300. But reading reviews, I see there are plenty of negative reviews?

[David Kumm]

While reciprocating compressors make more noise, the good ones aren't that loud. Screw type tend to prefer to be run constantly so are not ideal for hobby type shops. Most new and low end industrial are much lighter duty with more cheaply designed valves and aluminum blocks. Old cast iron compressors are easily rebuilt, Quincy QR being the top of the pile, but IR, Saylor Beall, Kellogg American, and some others can also be found cheap and rebuilt for $100-500. I'm not condeming new but if you need an industrial piston compressor, they are easily found and rehabbed.323315323316 Here are two I've done recently. Have about 1K in the 5 hp ( overpaid because of the high end 7.5 motor ) and 2K in the 25 hp. Dave

[Kelby Van Patten]

$1500 sounds like a lot but its not. Many think the saw is the heart of the shop and would spend much to get the best. Air is often over looked and many get by with less than they need. I use Sioux screw guns,Dynabrades and anything else I can get to work with air.

So my suggestion would be to either put both feet in and get a compressor suitable for multi tasking several air tools or Stick to corded tools.

Amazes me how many think 2k is a suitable compressor.

Not sure why you're amazed. My $2k compressor does everything I need it to do.

What kind of compressor is "suitable" depends on what your needs are. Those of us who do this as a hobby in our one-man shops have no need for "multitasking several air tools." A $2k compressor is very suitable for that situation.

[Martin Wasner]

Not sure why you're amazed. My $2k compressor does everything I need it to do.

What kind of compressor is "suitable" depends on what your needs are. Those of us who do this as a hobby in our one-man shops have no need for "multitasking several air tools." A $2k compressor is very suitable for that situation.

He's not talking about you.

[Peter Quinn]

I read the ceros reviews with some trepidation as we bought these on my suggestion after having demo'd one. All I can say is ours have run pretty much all day for a going on a year, we have worn out several pads and a vacuum but the sanders keep going strong. Definetly look at the deros before purchase, it's a bit of a hassle carrying around the transformer, but as Prashtun points out it keeps the business end nice and light in your hand. Not sure if want to add weight in the hand to lose the transformer. I find the ceros vibrates less than the air sanders I used to used, not by much but a little. They are much quieter though, none of that air "whistle" high pitch wine that gets to you after a long sanding session.

[Kent A Bathurst]

FWIW - I got the Ceros rather than the Deros for one reason:

The dust hose from the Ceros is a quick-disconnect. On the Deros, it is pretty near fixed - you can disconnect, but you have to disassemble. Spent 15 minutes with the guys at Highland to figure this out.

May mean nothing to anyone but me. I have things rigged so that the dust hose runs from vac to tool, and the tool is interchangeable - ROS, belt sander, router with Betterley dust pickup base, etc.

So - I have a workstation that accommodates multiple tools as needed - and the fixed-plumbing Deros would not work there.

[Martin Wasner]

On the reliability, if I had to replace them once a year, I'd still buy them. They are that good. The uptick in sanding efficiency, cost savings of the compressor not running constantly, wear and tear on an expensive compressor, and capital savings being able to hold off on purchasing an upgraded compressor is huge. Especially when that money can be spent on other pieces of equipment or upgrades that are more profitable.

I don't use a vacuum. I hate dragging the house around. I wish the cord could be as light as an air hose. I took the dust port off of our sanders. I'd probably get more life out of the abrasive with it hooked to a vacuum though. Because of these sanders we started sanding all of our face frames and paneled ends prior to box assembly on the downdraft table. They create a fog of dust in no time compared to my Dynabrades. Frames still have to be sanded once they're on the box, but pretty much just touch up. Big finished ends suck, but at this time the downdraft table is in fairly close proximity to where boxes get assembled, so it cleans up the air pretty quickly. When the down draft table is no longer close by, I may have to put vacuums on the benches. I wish my down draft table created enough suction to have a port directly on it for a hose, that'd be slick and I wouldn't mind the hose when doing something stationary like sanding doors or drawer parts. The chose really gets in the way sanding assembled cabinets. Mirka does have a hose that goes with their vacuum that had the power cord built into it, that looks pretty awesome. It looks like Mirka vacuums are just rebranded Alto-wap vacuums, which are excellent vacuums.

[jack duren]

Jack, at what price range do you find a compressor to be "suitable"? And what compressor do you have? I am deep into researching compressors for my one-man shop and I am finding what is "suitable" is still far away from the best. Seems a 3phase, screw type with cooler and dryer would be pretty nice but those start at around 6k. For me, a suitable compressor would be Quincy or IR 60 gal 2 stage both around $1300. But reading reviews, I see there are plenty of negative reviews?

I'm not trying to stir anyone wrong here on a hobby working level but over the years I've seen shops kill compressors or tooling trying to run air. either there is too much moisture or too much compressor use. The compressor we have at work fuels 140,000 ft of space,100 workers and hasn't ran out of air yet and everything is air on a 2.5 air line.

If i wanted to run air "mainly" for tooling seriously? I would contact the tooling company desired and ask for "their" suggestion, the amount of expected tools and there usage.

I hear too often "this works" and really it doesn't. It survives till worn out. Yes I've worked for small shops with 2-3 employees running just a $3k compressor and its touchy on a 17cfm tool.

[Bernie Kopfer]

I recently purchased the 5in Deros WITH their custom hose and I cannot be more happy. The hose takes 2seconds to disconnect! Hours of sanding plywood and no fatigue or vibration feeling. Only question I have is, does anyone know for sure if the 6in pad can be screwed to the 5in model?