Firmer chisels - What are they good for?

[Daniel Rode]

What would be the use for firmer chisels versus bevel edge or sash and mortise chisels? The larger, timber framing chisels seem to be firmers but I also see small ones. 1/4", 1/2" etc.

I'm not really looking to acquire a set, I'm just curious about how they were used.

[Kees Heiden]

The bevel edge chisel has a strange history. There have been quite a few Dutch chisels found with beveled edges, from the 17th century. But the English seem to have forgotten about that for a long time and only started to make them in the late 19th century. Before that time they only had firmers. The firmers for cabinet work were remarkably delicate, very thin at the end. The seaton chest has chisels less then 1/16" thick near the edge! That allowed the user to get into tight corners, for example dovetails. The bevel edge chisels from later times are about twice as thick! But the bevel allows the same kind of access in tight corners. So I think the bevel edge chisel was develloped to make things a bit easier for the chisel maker. Just imagine making such a very thin chisel and keeping everything straight throughout the hardening process and all!

Later firmer chisels aren't so delicate and are pretty thick at the end. They were just a chisel for coarser work. Not every woodworker was a cabinet maker. In carpentry there is plenty of work for a stout chisel for making rebates, half laps, housings etc.

Today you can find a lot of bevel edge chisels in the big box store that really are just a firmer with just a hint of a bevel on the sides. More like an afterthought, not because that bevel is usefull for anything.

[lowell holmes]

I only have 2 or 3 firmer chisels, but sometimes I will use them to chop mortises when I don't have a mortise chisel of the proper size.

You can also pare with them if need be.

[Mike Henderson]

By "firmer" do you mean a chisel that has a rectangular cross section? That is, one without tapered sides but which is about 1/8 to 3/16" thick - to distinguish it from a sash mortise or pigsticker.

That's always been my definition but I've heard many different opinions on chisel naming.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

In one of my readings on chisels someone suggested it was called a firmer chisel because it could withstand a firmer blow from a mallet.

Bob Smalser wrote a good description of different chisel types here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?13734-Wood-Chisel-Survey-for-Beginners-(Revised-For-The-Record)

Unfortunately Bob's images are links to other sites. Some of the links have become broken over time.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

Yes. That is my understanding as well. I'd read of firmer chisels a thin as 1/16 at the tip :) I think a "registered" chisel is essentially the same as a firmer but I might be wrong.


By "firmer" do you mean a chisel that has a rectangular cross section? That is, one without tapered sides but which is about 1/8 to 3/16" thick - to distinguish it from a sash mortise or pigsticker.

That's always been my definition but I've heard many different opinions on chisel naming.

Mike

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks, Jim. Even with the missing images, it's a good reference.


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?13734-Wood-Chisel-Survey-for-Beginners-(Revised-For-The-Record)

[george wilson]

Actually,I know from making tools for years that a beveled edge chisel is more difficult to make than a non beveled one. You have to make and grind the bevels. When you quench them,a beveled edge chisel is very prone to warping because there are 2 different surface areas on either side of the chisel.

Most of you who have tried making a plane iron ,know that beveling the edge first,then hardening and quenching it is just begging the blade to warp across its width. The same thing,only much worse applies to quenching a beveled edge chisel.

The old timers just ground freehand a tapering bevel on each edge of their chisels so they would clear dovetails It is not a pretty alteration,but they used this quick and dirty method of dealing with the problem.

About the Seaton chisels: They are FAR TOO THIN to be struck with a hammer AT ALL. especially when you realize that,except for the first few inches,(where there was a THIN bit of high carbon steel perhaps not half as thick as the thickness of the body), the chisels were made entirely of soft wrought iron. Not only thin,but having dangerously unpredictable silicon inclusions in them. Those could let go easily if hammered. And,those chisels are indeed VERY thin.

I have an early 19th. C. paring chisel that is almost twice as thick as the Seaton chisels,AND made of cast steel. I still would not want to hammer that 19th. C. chisel. I guess it's about 1/8" thick at the edge. It has no bevels. Tempered too soft,it could bend. Too hard and it could break or chip badly.

I had 1" of a 1" bevel edge Marples chisel snap off in 1970 when I wasn't even abusing it at all. This is part of the set I still use today. Probably tempered a bit too hard(no doubt,actually!) I also have a pre war nice set of Addis carving tools that have proven WAY too hard. So much so that I had to lay a gouge on a hot guitar bending iron and heat it PURPLE to get it to where it would TAKE a decent,sharp cutting edge. It must have been heated above the nominal hardening temperature to have been so hard that the usual brown temper would not have been sufficient. Antique tools are very subject to these vagaries. So,certainly a real thin chisel would have been treated with care and only hand pushed.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks for your insight George. I didn't apreciate how difficult making beveled edge chisels is. I still think making such thin firmer chisels is a feat too!

BTW, there are two sets of these "firmers" in the Seaton chest, one set is laminated like you describe. The other set is made entirely of cast steel. At least that's what I understand from the book.

It is a bit of a mystery why the English didn't make beveled edge chisels until 1870 or so. The Skokloster museum in Sweden has a nice set of Dutch beveled edge chisels from around 1665.

https://hyvelbenk.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/p7c5896.jpg?w=1000&h=&crop=1

[Kees Heiden]

BTW, 5 of the 34 "firmers" from Seaton are broken or cracked. So you are absolutely right about the fragility of those chisels.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks, Jim. Even with the missing images, it's a good reference.

+1. Thank you!

[Stew Denton]

Hi Dan,

My understanding has been like Jim and also like his post like to Bob's post.

If you read the book by Michael Dunbar on "Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Woodworking Tools," you will find that he describes "Firmer" chisels as those heavy duty bench chisels that are designed so that they can be used with a mallet. They are typically sharpened with an angle that I have seen described as being from 25 to 35 degrees, depending on the type of wood being worked, but a typical angle might be at 30 degrees. I used mostly butt firmer chisels to mortise for hinges, etc., back when I was carpentering. Often they have heavy leather rings on the end up the butt, or metal rings or a metal plate on the butt (these rings are called "hoops"), to withstand the effect of the use of a mallet.

Paring chisels are typically long bladed chisels that have a thin thickness that are used only "in hand," never struck with a mallet. They are used to pare away wood on such things as tenens, etc. For what its worth, slicks are paring chisels, not firmer chisels. The paring chisels are much lighter weight and are slimmer for better control in hand, and are often sharpened at a much shallower angle due to the use for paring. A typical angle for a paring chisel is often said to be 20 degrees.

Either type of chisel can have a rectangular cross section or beveled edges. The treatment of the edge of the blade is not an indicator as to whether the chisel is a firmer or a paring chisel.

Mortise chisels are those used for cutting mortises, and have very thick cross sections. "Pig sticker" chisels are typical mortising chisels.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

For what its worth, slicks are paring chisels, not firmer chisels.

The "slick" description has been misused, like so many other descriptors, it has almost no meaning. Often spuds or debarking tools are called slicks and slicks are called debarking tools. Many tools in the same area, so know what you want and what you are getting.

Either that or buy everything and sort it out when you get home. :D

jtk

[Stew Denton]

Hi Jim,

Good point. I had only seen the hand held large hand used paring chisels with long wooden handles which were used in timber framing work called "slicks." I was not aware of the other types also being referred to as "slicks."

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Jim,

Good point. I had only seen the hand held large hand used paring chisels with long wooden handles which were used in timber framing work called "slicks." I was not aware of the other types also being referred to as "slicks."

Stew

My 2" Stanley (like a #750 without the #) is fitted with a long handle and is used more on de barking fresh cut wood than in the shop. Not really a slick or a spud, but it sort of does the job.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Okay all this slick talk got me wondering...

My dictionary associates slick with smooth. With this note, "Old Norse slíkr ‘smooth’."

Was this how a smooth surface was made in the days before a smoother plane?

Wikipedia says:


Slicks are used mostly by shipwrights and timber framers.

Smoothing tenons for a 'slick fit?'

jtk

[John Vernier]

It's worth noting that, at least in the later 19th century, the term Firmer referred to the thickness of the chisel rather than the lack of a bevel. Looking at the 1889 Sheffield tool trade list, and the 1890 Buck Brothers (USA) price list (I have reprints of both), firmer chisels are offered with square sides and beveled, and paring chisels are also offered with square sides and beveled. The Sheffield list also offers a grade of Strong Firmer chisels, not to be confused with Registered chisels, which are yet another listing.

Neither of theses catalogs explains the differences in type explicitly. I have a set of English beveled cabinet chisels which I assembled piecemeal over time, and naturally enough I was shopping mainly for different widths when I was buying. The thickness of these chisels varies dramatically. The most delicate of my beveled chisels is scarcely 1/16" thick near the tip, while some are nearly 3/16. It wasn't until I read the old catalogs that I realized I probably have a mix of beveled paring and beveled firmer chisels. All of them have delicately ground bevels, by modern standards, so I find that the thicker ones work just fine for my paring needs. Some of the thin ones are astonishingly delicate, and I used them with great caution and some trepidation.

[Scott Vanzo]

I do not pretend to be any type of scholar in this area, but I found a few references for "Firmer" from over a 100-120 years ago. The first two seem to suggest that the Firmer chisel is simply a short paring chisel, while the last claims that it has to do with the material and manner in which it is made. I also found other sources that distinguish a firmer chisel (primarily used by cabinet makers) from a socket chisel (used primarily for timber framing). Yet another showed an illustration of a "Socket Firmer", which has me all confuzzled.



The Firmer Chisel, see Fig. 9 (2), is so called because it is the firmest type of paring chisel. Firmer chisels are made from 1/16-1 1/2 in. wide of well-tempered steel, and used for general chisel work where striking with a hammer or mallet is not necessary. A Paring Chisel is shown in (1), the blade of extra length, and used for work inaccessible to a firmer chisel. The width of blade varies from 3/4-1 1/2 in. All chisels are made with either square or bevelled edges; the latter, see (3), afford an advantage in dovetailing and in bevelled work where a square chisel edge could not be entered in the corner. (4) shows another kind of handle, made chiefly in boxwood. Fig. 10 (1) illustrates a Firmer Gouge, made from 1/4- 1 1/2 in. in width and of varying curvature. Firmer gouges are always ground and sharpened on the outside face, distinguishing them from scribing gouges-which are sharpened upon the inside-thus enabling a cut to be made square with the face of an object or moulding. Firmer gouges are especially useful for recessing work-such as the concave shape in a pen tray, etc. Carving gouges are made of hard-tempered steel, much thinner in section, with the bevel hardly perceptible, and are made in various shapes.

From Handcraft In Wood And Metal, by John Hooper, Alfred J. Shirley, 1913 (http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Handcraft-in-Wood-And-Metal/Tools-Continued.html#.ViMxbrw5Skg)




Chisels


These, whether called firmer, paring, or mortise, are much the same thing, and between the former two the cabinet-maker need hardly distinguish, as the chief difference between them is that the paring chisel is longer than the ordinary firmer. Perhaps a better way of putting it to the novice is to say that a long firmer is a paring - chisel, or that a short paring-chisel is a firmer. The latter often have thin or bevelled edges, as in Fig. 17, instead of as shown in Fig. 18, which represents the ordinary firmers, though these are also made with bevelled edges.

from "The Art And Craft Of Cabinet-Making", by David Denning, 1891. (http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Cabinet-Making/Chisels.html#.ViMrarxlmRu#ixzz3otTP9kz5)





22. Tang Firmer-Chisel


This style of chisel is preferred by joiners, cabinetmakers, pattern makers, and those engaged in the finer class of woodworking. They are better balanced, hang better, and cut nicer than the socket chisels, but are more easily broken. A ferrule handle is used on this style of chisel. The term "firmer" refers to the manner in ,which the tool is made and the material out of which it is made. Firmer-chisels have blades wholly of tool steel, while in some kinds of chisels iron blades overlaid with steel are used. Firmer-chisels should be used in manual training work. They are made in sizes from 1" to 2".

-from the "Educational Woodworking For Home And School" book, by Joseph C.Park, 1908 (http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Educational/Edge-Tools.html#.ViMvFrw5Skg#ixzz3otYSODW6)

[lowell holmes]

Back in the day - - -
Before the pig sticker mortise chisels became easily available again, and when I was learning to chop mortises, all I had were bevel edged Blue Chip bench chisels.

I learned to use the bevel edge chisels to chop mortises, but I became aware of the square edged firmer chisels. I tried them and found they would allow me to really bang away chopping mortises.
I tried them and liked them.

Then, Tools for Working Wood made the pig stickers available again, so naturally we had to try them and we like them. Then Narex came out with their mortise chisels, same story, tried them and liked them.

I tend to get confused about sash chisels, I think the LN mortise chisels may be sash mortise chisels. I have them and like them.

Along the way, I found I can chop mortises with any of them, so I use the one that strikes my fancy at the moment.

I also have two large timber framing chisel and after sharpening them and putting handles in them, I have chopped some big mortises with them. They are also good for paring deck framing.
These chisels were inherited. They used to be owned by a deceased stair builder in Hoboken New Jersey.

I think the real reason for the different types of chisels is to get my money.

[Gary Herrmann]

I have a set of Greenlee bevel edge firmers. I treat them as somewhat beefy bench chisels. They can mortise, and they're sharp enough to pare.

I started buying them because I wanted a set of 12 vintage chisels (still missing the 5/8 and the 7/8 - but I may never find those). At the time, firmers didn't seem to be as popular as bench or paring chisels.

I was born in IL, so that was another reason.

I like them as general use chisels. I still have my blue handles for beaters.

[Warren Mickley]

What would be the use for firmer chisels versus bevel edge or sash and mortise chisels? The larger, timber framing chisels seem to be firmers but I also see small ones. 1/4", 1/2" etc.

I'm not really looking to acquire a set, I'm just curious about how they were used.

Firmer chisel is an older name for a bench chisel. They are generally used by joiners and cabinetmakers and are roughly 8 to 11 inches long. In the late 19th century and early 20th century there were socket firmer chisels, tang firmer chisels, bevel edge socket firmer chisels, and bevel edge tang firmer chisels.

In the 18th century, English and French firmer chisels were tang chisels and not bevelled. They tapered in thickness from bolster to tip, being quite thin at the bevel when new. They also tapered in width, widest at the tip, but gradually became more uniform in width around 1800. In the 17th and 18th centuries, socket chisels were used by carpenters, generally not bench workers.

In the late 19th century American companies manufactured "socket framing chisels" in a variety of widths including narrow, like 1/8 and 1/4. They are generally longer and heavier than firmer chisels. Some have called the narrow ones "sash mortise chisels", but they were not marketed as such and are not as carefully made as a mortise chisel. Before the Lie Nielsen design, almost all mortise chisels were tang chisels.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Warren. That's the clearest explanation I've read. It sounds like the firmer chisels morphed over time as did their uses.