Shellac made with methanol

[Gary Viggers]

My friends own a distillery. One of the early parts of the distillation process is to remove the "head," which is the undrinkable portion of the first distillation. It mainly consists of methanol (about 86%). I pretty much have an unlimited supply of it (if I can use it).

I've read that methanol is good for making shellac. I've also read that the stuff is toxic/poison.

Should I use it for shellac? One approach is just go for it... if the shellac flakes dissolve and the shellac cures after application, all is good. BUT, is it safe? What precautions are necessary? Gloves, eye protection, respirator, well-ventilated area, etc. Do I need to go overboard? Or should I not even try?

BTW, if anybody needs some methanol, there is currently 55 gallons of it ready for pickup in the Arts District of downtown L.A.

[Jerry Thompson]

I know it is toxic when ingested and attacks the optic nerve. The thing to know about the ingestion part is that is someone drinks it give them ethanol. The body will turn to metabolizing it and let the methanol be gotten rid off in its pure form. It is the metabolites of the methanol that do the damage.
I do no know about inhalation or absorption. A person could test a little with shellac and see what happens. To the shellac not you.

[Mel Fulks]

I've never heard that it was good for shellac. My understanding has been that it's main use was to denature (make poisonous ) grain alcohol to keep people from drinking grain without paying the high taxes.

[Scott DelPorte]

Except for the toxicity thing, I have read that methanol works good for shellac, but I have never tried it. I'm sure you can take precautions so it can be used safely. You can always dissolve a bit of shellac in it and try it. See how well it dries.

[Prashun Patel]

I wouldnt use methanol.

[Bruce Page]

One $8 gallon of Denatured Alcohol goes a long way in making shellac. Using methanol seems penny wise, pound foolish considering the potential risk.

[George Bokros]

At the BORG one gallon of denatured alcohol is $16 a gallon.

[Allan Speers]

It's my understanding that even breathing methanol is extremely dangerous. Using it in pure form seems a bit foolish, at best.

As I have started using shellac quite a bit lately, I'm actually looking into purchasing pure ethanol. Another member here recently recommended it, and it's not all THAT expensive.

[Allan Speers]

Methanol is said to be incredibly dangerous even when inhaled. The idea of using it pure seems nuts.

I don't even like the best DNA, let alone what the Borg sells. Someone here recently recommended using 190 proof Everclear, (available through liquor stores, probably a special order) and I'm going to order some if it's not overly expensive.

[Allan Speers]

I did some research on pure Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol) i.e. 100% pure grain alcohol.

Everclear 190 proof of course is only 95% pure. the remainder is probably water, which concerns me when using it with shellac. A gallon of the stuff (five 750 l bottle) would cost $85 / gallon + shipping.


This place sells 100% pure ethanol, at what seems like a very good price compared to other sources:
http://www.kleenxtract.com/our-products
$80 / gallon, , plus shipping, plus a $25 hazmat shipping surcharge. That's probably around $125, delivered.


OUCH ! - But what is your health worth? I'm seriously considering ordering some.

[Gary Viggers]

Thanks for the input. I've had a couple gallons of the stuff for three weeks but have been hesitant to use it. I think I am going stick with store-bought DNA. However, the methanol did a good job of cleaning a crusty, dried-shellac covered mason jar. :)

[Bruce Page]

At the BORG one gallon of denatured alcohol is $16 a gallon.

Even at $16 it would still be penny wise & pound foolish, IMO.

[glenn bradley]

Even at $16 it would still be penny wise & pound foolish, IMO.

I agree based on toxicity concerns. I have had no trouble with DNA. There is a moisture issue when stored in cans for long periods due to water content. I decant into glass or plastic. If you are storing these products for extended periods just make or buy less at a time, it is actually more economical than waste.

[ALAN HOLLAR]

Methanol is bad swallowed, inhaled, or absorbed through skin contact. 100 percent alcohol of any kind only exists for seconds. Alcohols are very hygroscopic, and pull moisture out of the air, and begin to proof down. You can make shellac with Everclear and it will work fine, but the cost is crazy.

[Scott DelPorte]

I think it also matters how you use shellac. I mostly French polish with shellac, so I spend hours and hours finishing a guitar with a pad in close proximity to the solvent, but don't go through too much of it, or breathe high concentrations of fumes. A quart or liter bottle lasts me a couple years because I'm not a prolific builder. I use the expensive 190 proof ethyl to avoid prolonged exposure to DNA and the cost difference is in the noise compared to other things. The only safety equipment I use is a glove, and that is mostly to keep my fingers from getting caked with shellac.

If I sprayed lots of shellac, and used lots of alcohol as a solvent for cleaning up etc, I would consider the cheaper more toxic stuff assuming that the right safety equipment to deal with it properly (mask, ventilation etc) wasn't more trouble than it was worth. I stopped spraying lacquer on guitars because I didn't like the hassle of all the safety equipment, but its a fine finish on its own merits, and for many the tradeoff is worth it. I wonder if there are any legitimate benefits of methanol as a solvent that people are aware of that might weigh against the hassle of extra care to use it safely.

[Mark Kornell]

I use 99% methanol pretty much exclusively when mixing shellac. Can't find an ethanol-based product in this part of Canada.

It works quite well, and as you surmise, once the coat of shellac dries out (I.e. the alcohol evaporates), there is no difference because of which alcohol was used.

There are two areas where you will notice a difference:

1) Time to dissolve. It takes longer for flakes to dissolve in methanol than in ethanol. Long enough that I don't mix up flakes, but instead run them through a (cheap) coffee grinder first. Makes a huge difference in time - 2 hours vs 2 days for a gallon of a 1# mix.

2) Methanol flashes faster. I typically spray, so a faster flash time isn't a bad thing. But for brush application, it makes it harder to get a good overlap.

There are two other alcohols that can be used with shellac: isopropyl and butyl. I've yet to hear of anyone using butanol, pretty hard to come by in a useful quantity. But isopropanol does work. My experience is that it takes about twice the time as methanol to dissolve ground-up flakes. And the flash time is quite long.

I've experimented with methanol/isopropanol mixes to control the flash time, but it seemed that it was better to make a full methanol mix and then add isopropanol as a retarder. To make an appreciable difference, it was necessary to add enough isopropanol that it changed the cut noticeably. I've since moved to using natural turpentine as a retarder as you only need a teaspoon (or less) per quart to have the desired effect.

A note about purity - 86% isn't good, depending on what the other 14% is. If the rest is another alcohol, it would be good. 14% water would still work, but significantly extend the dissolution time. 14% of something else would probably be bad.

As to safety concerns - the methanol molecule is small enough that organic vapor respirator filters do not block it. Methanol is absorbed by skin contact, ingestion and inhalation. While I'm pretty sure you wouldn't drink the stuff, you do need.proper precautions when using it. I always use it in my spray booth with the fan running, too pull as much of of the vapors away from me as possible. Nitrile gloves when handling. And a drink after a session as a proactive countermeasure.

[Mel Fulks]

Mark,thanks for detailed post on the methanol. Everything I had heard before was negative, especially water content.

[Curt Harms]

I've yet to hear of anyone using butanol, pretty hard to come by in a useful quantity.

No experience but recall reading the Behkol contains butanol as a retarder.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/11Z83/%28H%29-BEHKOL-SOLVENT-QUART.aspx?gclid=CLW_7d26v8gCFQsXHwodczEHqA

[Gary Muto]

Methanol is bad swallowed, inhaled, or absorbed through skin contact. 100 percent alcohol of any kind only exists for seconds. Alcohols are very hygroscopic, and pull moisture out of the air, and begin to proof down. You can make shellac with Everclear and it will work fine, but the cost is crazy.

I agree on all of these points. I worked on Methanol fueled vehicles in the 1990's. It's really bad stuff and you have to protect yourself from skin contact as well as inhalation.

I've considered the everclear option as a way to get away from the Denatured alcohol. For $80/gal, i'll just be careful.