Best surface off the tool?

[Roger Chandler]

I have been working on a fairly large black walnut bowl, and have gone through several tools and techniques for getting a better surface before sanding. I have used both 45 degree and 60 degree grind gouges, and have used freshly sharpened scrapers at a shear angle.

Not satisfied with my results, I used shellac to stiffen the fibers and used both shear scrapes with both a bowl gouge wing and then shear scrape with a 1" round nose scraper. Still not satisfied, I pulled out the Hunter #4 carbide tool with new cutter head and shear scraped with it........still not satisfied!

Maybe it is this particular piece of wood......these techniques in the past have yielded superb results, but not this time! :mad:

I cannot go any thinner on the cuts as it would likely create a hole in the bottom of the bowl, and at present I have another coat of shellac on it, and have intentions of wet sanding this beginning at 80 grit and going on up. Perhaps it will fill the pores a bit, and then I will probably apply some WOP and then wet sand that.

Any better ideas on tools/techniques that might give me some better results? Just as an example of previous results I have gotten, the image is of another bowl from a different walnut tree.......you can see the finish turned out well........I just can't figure this particular piece as to why it is giving me the trouble it is :confused:

323064

[Brian McInturff]

Did you try cutting in reverse? Hard to tell without a pic. I'm guessing it's more a problem of raised grain/fuzz instead of tool marks? Is the wood still semi-wet?

[Roger Chandler]

Did you try cutting in reverse? Hard to tell without a pic. I'm guessing it's more a problem of raised grain/fuzz instead of tool marks? Is the wood still semi-wet?

I roughed this bowl out about 3 months ago, sealed it with anchorseal, bagged it and weighed it every week until I got 3 consecutive readings that were the same. Took it out, and proceeded to finish turn. I did not cut in reverse, but did try sanding in reverse a couple of times.......I was not satisfied, so put another coat of sanding sealer [dewaxed shellac] on it, let dry overnight, and did another series of shear scrapes with a fresh edge off a 180 grit CBN wheel.

It is not bad, but not gallery quality, and I need it to be for the gallery I am at. This one is just difficult I guess.....not for a lack to trying on my part, and I certainly do not know everything about finishing, but as the pic in my other post shows, I am not a novice either!

I am going to try the wet sand route on it, and if not satisfied, then I just won't take it to the gallery. :(

[Brian McInturff]

Could always use a grain filler worst case I guess.

[Doug Ladendorf]

That's a gorgeous bowl Roger! I would be elated to turn out something so "ragged"! :p

[Bob Bergstrom]

In highlight, it sounds as if the problem area is near the interior bottom. Possibly an increase in speed would help. It seems you have gone through the different tools, so it is not so much a technique problem. There is a lot more side grain the end grain in the lower portion of a bowl and when that short end grain area runs into the side grain we are set up for some tearing in the cut. Speed and light cut can help, but as you said it could be the wood. There are wood demons in some trees! Some cut like butter and some are defiant. Sanding on those with 60 grit is even allow.

[Roger Chandler]

In highlight, it sounds as if the problem area is near the interior bottom. Possibly an increase in speed would help. It seems you have gone through the different tools, so it is not so much a technique problem. There is a lot more side grain the end grain in the lower portion of a bowl and when that short end grain area runs into the side grain we are set up for some tearing in the cut. Speed and light cut can help, but as you said it could be the wood. There are wood demons in some trees! Some cut like butter and some are defiant. Sanding on those with 60 grit is even allow.
Thanks Bob.....a good bit of wisdom in your words. I don't have any 60 grit on hand to exorcise those wood demons with, but that speed tip at the bottom of the bowl is something for me to take a swing at.........thanks! :)

[Roger Chandler]

That's a gorgeous bowl Roger! I would be elated to turn out something so "ragged"! :p
Why thanks Doug! :) That was a previous bowl from a different tree. Just an example that illustrates that my present difficulty is not the norm, so I was seeking advice on perhaps a different tool to try or technique.

[Fred Belknap]

Roger I like to use a heavy 1.5" scraper with a bevel on the top side. I use a burnishing tool to put a edge like a card scraper, if that don't do it power sand with 100 or 120 grit. I do a lot of walnut and it does get kind of fuzzy sometimes. Good luck with it.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger I like to use a heavy 1.5" scraper with a bevel on the top side. I use a burnishing tool to put a edge like a card scraper, if that don't do it power sand with 100 or 120 grit. I do a lot of walnut and it does get kind of fuzzy sometimes. Good luck with it.

Sort of like a negative rake grind? Sounds like something to try. Thanks Fred!

[Thom Sturgill]

I hone my gouge for that final shear cut, and yes, ramp up the speed. That said, walnut often needs filling.

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks Thom! Man, I love the collective wisdom one can get from the "Creeker" family! Some great tips in this thread!

[robert baccus]

If the problem is in the bottom or transition area try wetting with water and use a bottom feeder grind gouge there.

[Reed Gray]

Well, walnut is kind of a pain. It always seems to dull the tools quicker than most other woods, so some extra sharpening may be needed. The higher the shear angle, the cleaner the cut, which is one reason why I like the fluteless gouge from Doug for those whisker thin shavings, and you can roll it up to 70 degrees. Lubricating the fibers can help too. I watched Dale Larson last night finish turn a twice turned bowl, which I won in the raffle. Madrone cuts as sweet as Bradford Pear, but Dale would use the walnut oil on the wood before his shear scraping. I generally don't use that method, but once on one really nasty piece of Koa, I had to wet it down and take micro thin shavings (way thinner than whiskers) several times to clean it up. For my shear scraping, I prefer a ) nose to a more half round nose, and drop the handle so it is impossible to get on the high side and catch. I am still playing around with different burrs. Now I am honing a burr on with a 320 grit CBN hone. It does raise a pretty good burr. Most of the time, I will just use the burr from the 80 grit CBN wheel. If it is being difficult, than I will try the burr from the 180 grit wheel. I need to go back to trying the burnished burr as well, though in past attempts, it never seemed to be an improvement. The nice thing about having too many tools is that some times when one doesn't work, another one might. I still am not sure about the negative rake scrapers. For sure, they are still scraping, and they cut differently than a standard scraper with the handle way up in the air. There seems to be two main variations. One has a symmetrical bevel, about 40 or 45 on each side. The other is more like 70 on the bottom, and 20 on the top. It does a really nice job of smoothing out all those ripples that are tool marks. They don't do well on big leaf maple, too soft. They seem to work well on madrone, but just about every thing cuts madrone well. I get mixed results on myrtle which is hard, abrasive, and has interlocking grain. For sure, they work better on really hard woods, end grain, and ivory, which I heard is where they were first used. I seem to get about the same or better results with a shear scrape as I do with NRS. So, really no answer, but you can try a lot of different things. Walnut is open grained, so that may be part of it. Also, as far as I am concerned, you will always have some tear out on bowls because for 1/4 turn you are going against the grain, and then with, then against, and then with. The trick seems to be taming it the minimum before sanding. I usually start sanding at 100 or 120. Some times I have to resort to 80.

robo hippy

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks Reed for your perspective.........I appreciate you chiming in on this!

[Lee Hoffman]

Roger...Having read the prior posts, it appears that the problems indicated are due to sanding and grain filling, not tool sharpness or tool presentation. I live in Northern California in the heart of the Claro Walnut country and this problem is all to common. Walnut open pore problems are remedied only by wet-sanding.
1. Sand to 220 grit conventionally.
2. Apply Antique Oil and wet-sand. (remove swarf prior to drying) let dry thereafter.
3. Sand to 600
4. Sand and burnish with Mirka Mirlon to 2500
5. Apply 3 coats of Waterlox or Birchwood Casey Gunstock Finish.
6. Wax and buff if you feel it necessary.

This will give you a gallery quality finish on this difficult wood. The only problem is that wet-sanding will mottle the colors somewhat. Give it a try...If you are not happy with the result you can always sand it back.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger...Having read the prior posts, it appears that the problems indicated are due to sanding and grain filling, not tool sharpness or tool presentation. I live in Northern California in the heart of the Claro Walnut country and this problem is all to common. Walnut open pore problems are remedied only by wet-sanding.
1. Sand to 220 grit conventionally.
2. Apply Antique Oil and wet-sand. (remove swarf prior to drying) let dry thereafter.
3. Sand to 600
4. Sand and burnish with Mirka Mirlon to 2500
5. Apply 3 coats of Waterlox or Birchwood Casey Gunstock Finish.
6. Wax and buff if you feel it necessary.

This will give you a gallery quality finish on this difficult wood. The only problem is that wet-sanding will mottle the colors somewhat. Give it a try...If you are not happy with the result you can always sand it back.

Thanks for the tips Lee........much appreciated! I think I will give your sanding sequence a try......I do have antique oil on hand and have gotten good results in the past wet sanding with it. The Mirka.....well, I don't have that, but do have Abralon and micro-mesh, so that will be okay. The final finish will probably be either WOP or maybe some more antique oil, now that I have used it for the wet sanding....