Lighting Questions for my workshop

[Marion Smith]

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-6-in-Warm-White-Recessed-LED-Can-Disk-Light-CE-JB6-650L-27K-E26/203596700/

I installed 5 of these in a family room recently, and I really liked them!
They were a breeze to install, the warm white light is what I like, and, they are dimmable. I also like the enclosed feature of the unit.
They aren't any more expensive than a good 4' twin-tube fluorescent fixture, but probably would last my lifetime as opposed to the fluorescent bulbs life.
My question for you lighting guys is: How many of these would I need to light up my 16' x 32' shop with 8' sidewalls?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Hi Marion,

I wouldn't be the guy to answer your question about "how many", but I discourage you from using recessed lighting in a shop setting. They are very directional lights compared to the typical T-8 fluorescent tube fixture. They are more like spot lights, meaning you get most of light when you're standing directly underneath them, which usually means casting shadows on your work.

Since tube fixtures usually sit on the surface of the ceiling, they will cast light in almost 180 degrees, meaning that the lighting from one fixture will overlap the light from the next... which means fewer shadows obscuring your vision for detailed work.

Just my $.02.

[Mike Heidrick]

16X32 lit to what ft candle?

Lets do 100ft candles as it is great light.

(512sqft X 100 lumens per sq X 2 (assuming 50% loss but it is prob more since it is enclosed)) / (650 lumens each bulb X 1 bulb per fixture) = ~158 lights you need to install
But it will still be kinda dim due to enclosed footprint, a very warm light, and the non wide dispersal of those bulbs.

Same math with T8 4 bulb fixtures 2800 lumen each:
(512X100X2)/(2800X4) = ~10 lights you need to install But it will actually be a LOT brighter and more accurate color representation

Read the lighting thread stickied at the top of this workshop section. The linked article is the reason I have AMAZING light in my shop.

[Charles Taylor]

There's a very informative sticky thread in this forum titled "Shop Lighting...". I recommend taking the time to read that thread and the Jack Lindsey article referenced in the first post. And I second Peter's recommendation to use fluorescent tubes in the workshop.

[Steve Milito]

I based my lighting on the "Shop Lighting ..." thread also. The electrician and contractor thought I was crazy until they did the install. It seems like a lot of lights when your installing but the lighting is spectacular when it's done.

[Marion Smith]

Well, if I would need 158 of them, that would be nuts! The cost would be about $5,000 in the lights and the work boxes...yikers! Plus, I don't even want to think about twisting almost 500 wire nuts either!
I have to ask though, if 5 lights lit up that family room like this, why do I need 158 for my shop? The rooms are the same size.

[Marty Tippin]

I have to ask though, if 5 lights lit up that family room like this, why do I need 158 for my shop? The rooms are the same size.

Hard to tell from the photo, but that room looks to be maybe 8 or 10 ft wide by maybe 16 ft long? Not quite 16x32.

Fluorescent really is the way to go - I used 9 of these (3 rows x 3 per row) in my 40x40 shop and have plenty of light. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-Tandem-4-Light-White-Ceiling-Fluorescent-Strip-Lighting-Fixture-TL-2-32-120-1-4-GEB-SCD/202193133

[Peter Aeschliman]

Marion, shadows are key. Stand under one of those lights and bend over like you're doing some chisel work. I'll bet your head and shoulders will cast a pretty dark shadow.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I used Jack Lindsey's original article published in FWW to design the lighting in my 24' x 30' shop. I bought some better quality 8', 4-bulb, T-8 fluorescent fixtures at HD and spent about $600. Friends who drop by are amazed how well my shop is lighted and the lack of shadows.

As Jack points out in his article, the amount of light required at the work height is important and varies as we age.

[Mike Heidrick]

If you want 3.17 lumens per sq ft of very direct yellow muted lighting in your shop, knock yourself out with 5 of those lights. You don't have to take any recomendations from us - its only science and math and experience we are speaking from. You only have to make you happy.

[Marion Smith]

Geeeesh, I was just asking trying to learn something. I read, and even re-read the lighting sticky thread before I even posted my question about the led lites. Like I've mentioned in my previous "I'm getting a new workshop" posts, I've always worked in a garage space or basement. The lights in those spaces consisted of a few incandescent bulbs hanging from the ceiling joists or a couple 4'-2bulb cheapie strip lights. The shadow thing is something I didn't think of. It kinda dawned on me then, that I have been working with several tools, but always scooted them into my workspace by the light. In the new shop, stuff is pretty much gonna stay put, thus the light standard and the math. So, now I'm convinced I need to go shopping for some good fluorescent light fixtures and give up on the led idea.
I'll be checking out the lights Marty mentioned.
Mike, what fixtures did you choose for your shop please?
Last but not least, which 'color' bulbs?
Cool white...neutral... Daylight... the list goes on & on...

[Mike Heidrick]

Sorry I was kinda off with that reply. When you posted the but hey look at this room post I honestly saw a very dim lit living room picture with lots of shadows (I knwo cameras make things look weird too. It kinda reminded me of a buddy that loves his flexible led strip above his bench. To me it is horrible lighting there. I really feel like he (and maybe you) have just never experienced good lighting to know what you are missing. He bought them based on price and ease of install and not the result they would provide. He did no research. But again, whatever makes him happy - I celebrate all shops. If he wants facts and to learn I will explain what that lighting article said, point it to him, and let him choose.

Point is do what you like for sure. I know I am WAYYY off the norm in my world.

I have 16' rafters so its tall and 2560 sq ft.

In the center of my shop I am using 6 bulb T5HO Howard fixtures and 5000K lamps in them - 30000 lumen ea. It was $800 for 8 of them. They are considered low end to those in the know I guess.

Along the edges I currently have sixteen used 320watt metal halide lights. I am not a fan of them as they are very tall and I dont like the humm. I plan to change them to the same T5HO lights in the spring.

Sorry again. Dont mind me. Posting when tired I am not on my game :)

I love that you have a new shop coming!

[glenn bradley]

I have to ask though, if 5 lights lit up that family room like this, why do I need 158 for my shop? The rooms are the same size.


Marion, shadows are key. Stand under one of those lights and bend over like you're doing some chisel work. I'll bet your head and shoulders will cast a pretty dark shadow.

It is always tempting to go inexpensive or to try some novel approach. In a shop you want even, shadow-free light. My shop is 20 x 30 and I have about 18 four foot, dual tube T-8 fluorescent fixtures. I still have task lighting on the bandsaw, scrollsaw and drill press areas. I'm not blind, there is just a need for shadow elimination and some machines have nooks and crannies where it makes no sense to try to eliminate them with overhead light sources. :)

[cody michael]

you can still get led's if that is the way you go, there are tons of different leds varieties, from ones that look just like flourescent tubes, to led "tape" I used the "tape" in my small one room cabin, put 4ft on each rafter joist, it cost about 15$ including the dimmer and looks awesome.

[Greg R Bradley]

If you are talking about a shop or warehouse and you are thinking LED, it is best to stop and investigate further. In general, they are not more efficient than flourescents and can only be justified if it is hard to get to the bulbs to change them etc. Normally, you can't justify removing flourescents and replacing them with LED, even if the new LED lamps are free.

Using LED instead of incandescents or those horrible CFL things is usually a great idea.

If LED referenced in the original post are probably 50-60 lumens per watt of electricity. Good T8 warehouse fixtures are about 100 lumens per watt.

[Marion Smith]

Been shopping around, I'm thinking 8 of the 4' four bulb type should just about do it? Or perhaps 10 of the 3-bulb version and spread the light source out more? I wish there was a website that would let you see the results from different fixtures in varying configurations!
Here are the lights I found.http://www.warehouse-lighting.com/store/p/7413-4-3-or-4-Lamp-Linear-Fluorescent-Low-bay-Fixture-32-Watt-T8-White-Reflector-120-277-Universal.aspx

[Steve Milito]

I would do 4 rows.
8' tandems (four t8 4' lamps) strung end to end.

That gives 12 or 16 fixtures with even light.
You could go 3 rows but I don't think the light will be as even.
I sourced 8' tandems at at under $40 a fixture when I built my shop.

[Ole Anderson]

What about those 4 foot shop fixture LEDs that are coming on the market at about $40/fixture? Seem to be getting good reviews here as well as on the HD site.

This one comes up from HD: Commercial electric brand (HD house brand)
Specs:Rated 50,000 hours
3200 Lumens
36-Watt
43% energy savings vs. 2-32-Watt fluorescent shop light equivalent
Light performance is equivalent to typical 2-32-Watt fluorescent shop light
4000 K
80 CRI
5 year warranty

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-4-ft-LED-Linkable-White-Shop-Light-54103161/205331022

I personally think fluorescents are going the way of the Labrador Duck. Like buying a SD television instead of HD. Think about it: Old TV's use a phosphor coated tube like a fluorescent light, the new TV's use LED's. Would you buy a CRT style TV?

[David C. Roseman]

Marion, 4' 2-bub T8 cool white fluorescent fixtures are inexpensive and will do the job, for sure. But I suggest you look seriously at the new Feit 4' 2-bulb LED shop light fixtures that Costco (and others) now sell, also very inexpensive. http://reviews.costco.com/2070/100155638/feit-electric-company-feit-electric-4-led-shop-light-2-pack-reviews/reviews.htm

[Steve Milito]

Marion, 4' 2-bub T8 cool white fluorescent fixtures are inexpensive and will do the job, for sure. But I suggest you look seriously at the new Feit 4' 2-bulb LED shop light fixtures that Costco (and others) now sell, also very inexpensive. http://reviews.costco.com/2070/100155638/feit-electric-company-feit-electric-4-led-shop-light-2-pack-reviews/reviews.htm

Wow. Prices have really fallen over the past 3-4 years. LED wasn't even close to being competitive when I did my shop lighting. It looks like LED is now the value play.

[Jim Dwight]

I have no doubt that 100 lumens per square foot is good light. I don't use that much, however and am satisfied most of the time. I have 8 13W CFLs in 4 inexpensive bases for about 20 lumens per square foot ignoring losses (white walls and ceiling). They are in the center third of the shop and at the ends, I could use a little more. Occasionally for fine work, I could use a little more. So I may upgrade to 23W CFLs (100W equivalent) for close to 40 lumens per square foot. I also will add a light on a post I can direct onto a surface where I need a lot of light. I am sitting in a room right now that is lit to less than 15 lumens per square foot and I regularly read fairly small print in it. I wouldn't want any less light that this in my shop and I have more. But I mention it to say that 100 lumens per square foot might be nice but in my experience you can get by nicely with half that or even less.

I guess I should add that I am more than twice the age recommended by the good sticky on lighting for 50 lumens per square foot (i.e. 50 foot candles) lighting level.

I like LED lights and we have some on the outside of our house. But the efficiency of some led shop lights I've looked at, about 70 lumens per watt, is less than the efficiency of normal T8 fluorescent (i.e. about 90 lumens per watt) and comparable to 23 watt fluorescent CFLs. They still retain the advantages of longer life and less easily damaged but the often hyped efficiency seems to be a bit of a myth. LEDs are not always more efficient, in other words. In shop lights they seem to be less efficient. I also noticed they make LED lamps to replace T8 bulbs. So if that continues, a T8 fixture will not become obsolete. But at around $25 each, it wouldn't be a tragedy of they had to be replaced.

[John Ziebron]

I moved late last year and am just about finished setting up my new shop. It's in a pole barn that I partitioned off so my woodworking space is 29 ft x 29 ft. I'm also upgrading a couple of my machines to larger size since I have more room now. And I don't have those machines yet. But what I did do is use Google Sketchup to lay out my shop including the new machines. That way I was able to "layout" where the lights should be which is basically overhead of the machine where the operator would be. That's the best way to eliminate shadows as someone mentioned earlier. Of course, you also need good lighting at your woodworking bench and, in my case, a 4 ft x 8 ft assembly table. I was also able to layout where the electrical boxes would be figuring that my lights, like most shop lights, have 5 foot cords. I put double duplexes in each box and used one box for each set of 3 fixtures. That way after I finish getting my equipment moved onto position if I determine I need another fixture somewhere there is an empty receptacle nearby. In setting up shop lighting I think ceiling height is also a consideration. My ceiling is 12 foot so I knew I would need more lights than if it was 8 foot for instance. I ended up with 19 four foot double T8 fixtures. Since I knew months in advance how many lights I needed I bought them all at Menards on sale (they always have a limit of 4 each time).

[Marion Smith]

I went looking at lights at 4 different stores...I'm more confused and bewildered now than before...ugh.
I like some of the T8 and T5 fixtures, but then there are radio interference, hum, and ballast issues with them.
The LED ones apparently don't have those issues, plus the cold start temp rating is better, but, there were limited fixtures to scope out.
Menards at least had them actually hanging down instead of staring you right in the face on the wall.
I live in a fringe reception area, and don't want to trade my tunes away. I know its picky, but I like to always have the radio on.
My side walls and truss ties are 8' above the floor. That tells me I shouldn't choose a high bay fixture right? If I put them above the truss, I'll just get shadows I think?

[Marty Tippin]

I wouldn't assume that LED fixtures don't put out radio interference. They're all made as cheaply as possible, and RFI suppression isn't a priority.

You probably do not need high-bay fixtures at 8' mounting height.

[Peter Aeschliman]

The thing that appeals to me about about the LED tube fixtures, aside from how long they last and their efficiency, is the fact that they don't have dangerous chemicals in them like fluorescent tubes. If you accidentally swing a workpiece up and break a fluorescent tube, you can be showered in mercury.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I would suggest that the small amount of mercury vapor that one would be exposed to in the event of breakage of a fluorescent light isn't a problem unless one is in a closed atmosphere like a submarine.

I doubt it would be a shower.

[Ross Canant]

Lumens of fluorescent and lumens of LED are not equal. Fluorescent lights project as much up as they do down. LEDs put all of their light downward. I just did my shop in Feit LED shop lights. I'm 30x40x12' with 22' to the peak and a 20x30' loft across one end at the 10' mark. I used 16 lights, 2 in the loft. That leaves 14 covering the floor, or 43 lumen/SF. It is bright, the brightest shop I've ever had. I have 8 fixtures over the high bay area, 4 rows of two (or two rows of 4 depending on how you look at it). They are set at about 15' and 20' off the floor covering 30x20'. The other 6 are under the 10' loft, also covering 30x20'. There are no shadows. I have had zero failures so far. The lights are $35.99 at Costco.