I Need Help Fixing a Problem With How to Attach Breadboards to My Table Top

[Anthony Brown]

I am building a 72" x 40" x 6/4 solid Hickory table top. I have already glued together the planks to get the width for my table top, but I have not attached the breadboards yet. My plan was to glue the breadboards to the rest of the table top just like I did with the other planks, but after doing some more research I have found that may not the best option. I have built and finished other (much smaller) projects where I glued together wood cross grain and I have never had an issue with expansion and contraction ruining the piece; However, it seems like due to the size of this project if I were to glue the breadboards to the table, I could have some issues with them expanding/contracting and messing up the table (FYI, the table will always be stored in a temperature controlled environment).

I am kind of stuck on how to proceed. Given that this is solid Hickory and most of my table top is already assembled, doing any kind of routing table modifications to the ends of the top (for mortise and tenon for example) is going to be next to impossible. For the breadboards, it may be doable since they are much smaller and not attached yet, but I would have to see. Also, I can't really cut into the assembled part of the table length-wise, as that would really shorten the length (I don't have much extra on the ends to trim off to get my exact measurements), so that poses a problem as well. I was all set to just trim off the little bit of excess length and then glue on my breadboards, but then some happenstance internet searching has thrown me all of.

Does anybody have any ideas on how I should proceed, or am I pretty much screwed?

Once the breadboards are attached, everything else should be pretty easy, as I am heading in a totally different direction for the legs, and I am very well-versed with the finishing portion of the project

Any help given would be great. Thanks.

[Matt Krusen]

Since mortise and tenon will be difficult, I would suggest attaching the breadboards with dowels. With the top being 40" wide, I'd do 8 dowels. Glue all the dowels into place in already assembled top. On the breadboards, drill the outer two dowel holes on each side oversize (like a slot) and don't glue them. The center 4 dowel holes should be drilled the same size as the dowel and should be glued. If you use a large enough dowel, you could then pin them with smaller dowels from the top as well. Kind of hard to explain in text. If you watch the Wood Whisperer video where he builds a Rustic Outdoor Table (episode 207 and 208?) he does this method with a Domino. Same concept with the dowels. Good luck!

[glenn bradley]

In your case you will want to attach at the center so that movement is out toward the edges. Similar example but, attached at the front to maintain that look and allowed to expand toward the rear.

322812322813322816322814322815

decorative spline is attached to the top and floats in the breadboard. Front dowel fits snug, middle is in a slot and rear is in a longer slot.

[Brian Holcombe]

The purpose of a breadboard end is to maintain the flatness of the table while allowing it to expand and contract with the seasonal change in humidity. Your house may be temperature controlled but most likely it is not humidity controlled, and even if it is it would be considered bad practice to lock in the wood over such a distance.

I digress.

What you could do is to make a very long spline, or floating tenon, and secure it in the center of the table. This will allow the table to expand and contract from the center on out to the edges.

What tools do you have available to you?

[George Werner]

The dowel solution is a good one. Do you know anyone that has a Domino cutter? You could do the same thing, fixed dominos in the middle and oversized mortises on the ends.

[Matt Day]

Brian, you suggest a very long floating tenon, but that should only be glued at the center of the main top, and can be glued the entire breadboard right?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Quick rule-of-thumb is 1/4" of movement per foot of width (flat sawn) or 1/8" of movement per foot of width (quarter sawn). FWW had article about this in issue #187 (I think), so if you can access I'd review specifics for Hickory, or search web for calculators to verify my cerebral flatulence:

If you use rule-of-thumb and assume the absolute worst case: dry wood now, table is at seasonal minimum width (40"), and breadboard is at 40". You could estimate the table will 'grow' in width by up to ~7/8". Or, shrink ~7/8" if you assume top is at maximum moisture content now. If you fix the breadboard to center of the table and allow both ends to float, you need to allow for ~7/16" movement - half on each edge. (Typical %RH extremes are winter & summer.) Don't know your location or typical humidity, but since it's fall, the reality is probably currently in the middle. So you could figure that you need to allow for ~7/32" movement at extreme table edges. This allowance is proportionally reduced as you move away from the table edges.

There are several methods mentioned by others to mechanically fasten the breadboard, you just need to make sure it has the necessary 'breathing' room.

[Anthony Brown]

Thanks for all of the help guys. I am going to go with the the dowel method that Matt suggested. I am going to do it exactly like the Wood Whisperer did it except with 3/4" dowels instead. It is going to be a bit tricky because I will probably have to router the "slop" holes wider in the horizontal direction for the holes that need it for expansion purposes.

I will update you guys with my progress!

[Kent A Bathurst]

1.25" x 44" x 84" QSWO table top - Some visual aids to my response:

Full-width tenon:

322820


There will be a 1/2" deep continuous tenon, with stub tenons every so often. Notice markout for tenons/waste - there is a 1" bit coming out of the end. This is the continuous tenon that will sit in a blind mortise slot in the BB end, to help keep the table top stable for full width. Brian H is dead-nuts on this point - see his post above.

322827


Whack away. See how many different tools you can enlist to perform this seemingly simple task.:

322821


Jig up, and route the stopped mortise to house the continuous tenon:

322822



Align the BB, and mark out the locations for the stub tenons:

322823


Holes in stubs: center is round, others are elongated.

322824


Off to mortiser with the BB ends, to make the plunges for the stubs:

322825

Whack it together, plane it smooth. Bronze #3 is the weapon of choice on this step. You can see the chalk on the table top - the game is barely remove the chalk, then slam on the brakes.

322826

I don't show drilling the holes thru the BB Ends to match with the holes/slots.
I don't show riving the QSWO bits to make chunks to pound thru the dowel plate to make the dowels.
I don't show the drawbore process.........


Ummm.....a little out of sequence - I dry-assembled the finished BB ends, then drilled the holes, then elongated the holes on the tenons..........

But you get the idea..........

FWIW - My Dad asked me "how do you make the stuff you make?" So I did a detailed picto-history, from rough lumber to a useable piece of stuff...............

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, you suggest a very long floating tenon, but that should only be glued at the center of the main top, and can be glued the entire breadboard right?

Sure, the grain is going the same direction.

I like Kent's approach the best :D And of course his tassel loafers ;)

[Kent A Bathurst]

Sure, the grain is going the same direction.

I like Kent's approach the best :D And of course his tassel loafers ;)

Dude -Puhleeeese - tassel with false kilties, low vamp. Get it right, eh? :D :D

THose in the photo are Johnston-Murphy - I have 3 identical pair - those are the shoes I used doing plant layouts, etc. But.........tassels with false kilties................

My absolute favorites from Cole-Haan.

When they discontinued my model, I bought 1 cordovan and 3 black. Wore out 1 black. Black 2 has been sent back to C-H twice for rehab - they do a wonderful job. Black 3 still in OEM box with cedar trees. He who dies with the best shoes wins. Screw clamps.

I am more of a shoe addict than I am a tool addict. Now that I don't work professionally anymore, I figure the 20 pair of C-H dress shoes I have will last several lifetimes, so I will probably start wearing them in the shop......... Those nice, thin, Italian soles ought to do a nice job in the shop, no?

Do you think I need to run them down to the ATL airport for a shine every so often, or just let them acclimate????

[Russell Hudson]

I used a spline joint with elongated peg holes (thru the spine) / Here's the video I made..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BpL0hEZzuI

[glenn bradley]

Sure, the grain is going the same direction.

I like Kent's approach the best :D And of course his tassel loafers ;)

Thanks Brian. I missed the tassels and had to go back to look :D.
.

[Anthony Brown]

So my drill finally bit the dust, both the clutch and the batteries. I have had this thing for years, and it's a fairly cheap drill, so I guess it's about time. My plan tomorrow is to buy another drill, and then get started. My breadboard is about 6-3/4" wide, and 6/4 thick, so I chose 3" L x 3/4" thick Oak dowels to use for joining the breadboards and table. I'm going to follow Matt's method by drilling 1-1/2" deep holes in the table and breadboard and gluing the 4 middle dowels to the breadboard. I am going to leave the outermost 4 dowels unglued as well as add some extra horizontal space around them to allow for movement.

Does that sound about right?

Also, really quickly, I make sure that the glue stays just on the dowels and I should not glue faces of the wood itself in the middle, correct?

[Phil Mueller]

Back in my Mad Men days, it was Cole Haan and Britches of Georgetown...Lenox Mall, I believe. Had those guys send suits long after I moved.

[Matt Day]

Doesn't take much for you guys to derail a thread huh?

Brian, reason I asked is to clarify grain direction. So a reminder to anyone thinking about it, the long spline can't be made of a single board since the grain would be wrong. You'd have to glue up multiple short boards then create the spline out of that so the grain aligns.

If you go the dowel route, I'd slot the holes for all but the middle one. I'd prefer more surface area and use a bigger floating tenonS, especially with such a big breadboard end at 6 3/4".

[Anthony Brown]

Doesn't take much for you guys to derail a thread huh?

Brian, reason I asked is to clarify grain direction. So a reminder to anyone thinking about it, the long spline can't be made of a single board since the grain would be wrong. You'd have to glue up multiple short boards then create the spline out of that so the grain aligns.

If you go the dowel route, I'd slot the holes for all but the middle one. I'd prefer more surface area and use a bigger floating tenons, especially with such a big breadboard end at 6 3/4".

Thanks for the tip. When you say slot the holes, should I add a bit of extra space vertically as well or should that fit tightly with me just slotting horizontally? In other words should the hole be bigger all the way around or just horizontally, lol?

Do you think my 3" L dowels are a good size? That's 1-1/2" going into each surface.

[Matt Day]

You want the elongated hole in the direction of movement only. The other direction (vertical) needs to be tight to support the BBE.

1.5" depth doesn't sound like enough for such a big BBE. I'd go 2/3 the BBE, so more like 4" of embedment. Probably could go less on the glued side since the glue locks it in.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Doesn't take much for you guys to derail a thread huh?

Sorry to interrupt your treatise on dowels - a little light humor, that's all.

OSU fan, I can assume? :D

Carry on.

[Kent A Bathurst]

1.5" depth doesn't sound like enough for such a big BBE. I'd go 2/3 the BBE, so more like 4" of embedment. Probably could go less on the glued side since the glue locks it in.

Humorless Matt [ ;) ] is correct here - the part that concerns me in the width of the BBE - that is a lot of territory for the dowels/tenons to support some 6'+ x 220lb + guy leaning on his elbows after dinner, telling jokes about his shoe collection, of course - Archimedes and the moon and lever length and all that stuff.

[Brian Holcombe]

Dude -Puhleeeese - tassel with false kilties, low vamp. Get it right, eh? :D :D

THose in the photo are Johnston-Murphy - I have 3 identical pair - those are the shoes I used doing plant layouts, etc. But.........tassels with false kilties................

My absolute favorites from Cole-Haan.

When they discontinued my model, I bought 1 cordovan and 3 black. Wore out 1 black. Black 2 has been sent back to C-H twice for rehab - they do a wonderful job. Black 3 still in OEM box with cedar trees. He who dies with the best shoes wins. Screw clamps.

I am more of a shoe addict than I am a tool addict. Now that I don't work professionally anymore, I figure the 20 pair of C-H dress shoes I have will last several lifetimes, so I will probably start wearing them in the shop......... Those nice, thin, Italian soles ought to do a nice job in the shop, no?

Do you think I need to run them down to the ATL airport for a shine every so often, or just let them acclimate????

Hah, you're in good company then, I have more dress shoes than my wife has heels....a lot more. I probably should not even admit to what I wear in the shop 90% of the time....anyone who thinks I'm crazy for having carpet in the shop will certainly know I'm crazy after seeing the footwear.

Let them acclimate :cool: I have a pair of cordovans (horse butts) I take pride in not polishing, I've had them resoled and made certain to tell the cobbler not to polish them.

[Brian Holcombe]

Doesn't take much for you guys to derail a thread huh?

Brian, reason I asked is to clarify grain direction. So a reminder to anyone thinking about it, the long spline can't be made of a single board since the grain would be wrong. You'd have to glue up multiple short boards then create the spline out of that so the grain aligns.

If you go the dowel route, I'd slot the holes for all but the middle one. I'd prefer more surface area and use a bigger floating tenonS, especially with such a big breadboard end at 6 3/4".

To have a thread properly derailed is a rite of passage on SMC :D I'm sure the OP feels honored.....;)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I've had them resoled and made certain to tell the cobbler not to polish them.........

Too funny. My "work shoes" have always been a pair of the J-M in the photo. When they wear out, I rotate them to "shop shoes" until the next pair of work shoes die. And the old pair of shop shoes hit the trash.

LOML has taken my shop shoes to the shoe guy a number of times with exactly your instructions. Paint spatters, scuffed all to heck, ugly as sin - but they are very comfortable.

He says "Why in the hell does he want to repair these shoes?"

Her: "Beats me. Just do it, please."

[glenn bradley]

To have a thread properly derailed is a rite of passage on SMC :D I'm sure the OP feels honored.....;)

True, so true.

Back on track; tight fit for the dowel ends, slots in the direction of the wood movement . . . perpendicular to the grain. Here's a couple methods.

322847322848

[Bob Cooper]

Maybe a dumb question but why would anyone want to ever use breadboard ends if the edge of the table is often times going to not align with the ends of the breadboard due to expansion and contraction? Seems like it would look terrible and wife would complain about the discontinuity

[Anthony Brown]

Maybe a dumb question but why would anyone want to ever use breadboard ends if the edge of the table is often times going to not align with the ends of the breadboard due to expansion and contraction? Seems like it would look terrible and wife would complain about the discontinuity

Yeah, I can see what you mean. Going into this I had no idea that all of this was required because of the breadboard's tendency to move/shift. I have no choice but to continue now, because in order to get the length that I want for my table I HAVE to use the breadboards. Otherwise I would probably just ditch them. I do really like the look of breadboards though!


You want the elongated hole in the direction of movement only. The other direction (vertical) needs to be tight to support the BBE.

1.5" depth doesn't sound like enough for such a big BBE. I'd go 2/3 the BBE, so more like 4" of embedment. Probably could go less on the glued side since the glue locks it in.

Oh man, 4" into the breadboard? My only problem is that I have no idea how I can slot something that deep. 1.5" - 2" isn't an issue, but slotting 4" may be a bit tough for me. I will have to see what I can figure out to get that that 4" depth for the slots.

[stevo wis]

Anthony, if you need to go deeper with your slots, just machine what you can and chisel out the rest.

[Matt Day]

Anthony, if you need to go deeper with your slots, just machine what you can and chisel out the rest.

Good idea stevo. Before the chisel, bring it to the DP and hog out as much material as you can

[Anthony Brown]

Thanks guys, I am going to give this a go today. I am not worried at all about boring the holes deep, it's just this slotting that has me a bit concerned because of the depth. Provided I don't screw this up (which is highly possible, lol), everything from here on out is a virtual cakewalk.

Since my material is 6/4 thick, should I risk going with a 1" dowel since my breadboard width is causing some concern, or should I stay with a 3/4" dowel?

Thanks.

[Pat Barry]

True, so true.

Back on track; tight fit for the dowel ends, slots in the direction of the wood movement . . . perpendicular to the grain. Here's a couple methods.

322847322848
This is not the dowel method Matt and OP are talking about. They are talking using a butt joint between the tabletop on the breadboard with only the dowels running in between to connect them. What you are showing is the classic approach. What they are doing is blazing new territory.

[Pat Barry]

Thanks guys, I am going to give this a go today. I am not worried at all about boring the holes deep, it's just this slotting that has me a bit concerned because of the depth. Provided I don't screw this up (which is highly possible, lol), everything from here on out is a virtual cakewalk.

Since my material is 6/4 thick, should I risk going with a 1" dowel since my breadboard width is causing some concern, or should I stay with a 3/4" dowel?

Thanks.
I would stick with the 3/4 inch dowels - you don't want the space between dowels and surface to get too thin.

Back to an earlier question - what tools do you have to work with? Plunge router, drill press, forstner bits, etc. I suggest reconsidering the classic approach shown by Glen, other wise, you could mill slots for splines in both the top and the breadboard?

[Brian Holcombe]

Maybe a dumb question but why would anyone want to ever use breadboard ends if the edge of the table is often times going to not align with the ends of the breadboard due to expansion and contraction? Seems like it would look terrible and wife would complain about the discontinuity

200 years old and still flat;

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_66.10.1.jpg

[Anthony Brown]

I would stick with the 3/4 inch dowels - you don't want the space between dowels and surface to get too thin.

Back to an earlier question - what tools do you have to work with? Plunge router, drill press, forstner bits, etc. I suggest reconsidering the classic approach shown by Glen, other wise, you could mill slots for splines in both the top and the breadboard?

Ok, I will stick with 3/4" dowels. Sorry about missing your earlier question. I have plunge router, router bits, router table, table saw, circular saw, etc... My plan was to drill all of the dowel holes to size and then use the router to create the slots where necessary, but now my issue is finding a router bit that will go deep enough (at least 3") that I don't have to chisel forever.

My only hesitation with the spline method is keeping the line straight on both pieces. This hickory table top is heavy and fairly unwieldy, so I'm not sure how I could route that deep enough effectively while maintaining a straight line.

I'm just trying to split the difference between assembling the table top in a manner that won't ruin it over time and not trying to do something too complicated/risky because I wasn't aware of this breadboard issue and therefore didn't plan for it.

I'm feeling pretty stupid/upset/worried right now. Lesson = learned for sure.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...because of the breadboard's tendency to move/shift....



The breadboard itself will 'move' very little. The width may change fractionally with seasonal %RH, but there is nothing to constrain its movement, so no issues. Its length will change little if at all.

The plank top of the table is what WILL change with %RH. If you figure out where you are now width-wise (during construction), then cut the BBE to such a length that it reflects the average width of the top. If you get it right, the BBE extends a little proud during dry season, and the top is proud during wet season. All very normal. And it keeps the top flat.

[Anthony Brown]

The breadboard itself will 'move' very little. The width may change fractionally with seasonal %RH, but there is nothing to constrain its movement, so no issues. Its length will change little if at all.

The plank top of the table is what WILL change with %RH. If you figure out where you are now width-wise (during construction), then cut the BBE to such a length that it reflects the average width of the top. If you get it right, the BBE extends a little proud during dry season, and the top is proud during wet season. All very normal. And it keeps the top flat.

Yeah, that's what I meant, but thanks for the detailed explanation. I'm sure all of this is normal, I just wasn't bright enough/didn't have enough knowledge to realize this and account for it. I have built a lot of smaller things out of wood and never had an issue and never accounted for expansion/contraction, but this table/breadboard issue is a different beast and it looks like I missed the mark.

I'm just trying to correct my blunder and mitigate the possible issues as safely as possible if that makes sense....

[Prashun Patel]

Wow, I didn't realize people were using such beefy connectors for their BB ends. If this were me, I'd use 1/2" dowels. Drilling precise, bigger holes is always trickier for me than I anticipate.

I'm not saying it's what's best for everyone, but I haven't had need for more.

[Hoang N Nguyen]

This is an interesting thread and lots of good info, I do have a question and hope I'm not hijacking the OP's thread. I'm also building a dining table (42"x92") but mine will have an apron to help hold down the table top. My ends will be exposed with no breadboards, will this give me issues?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Not to beat this to death, but since you have a router.... Maybe? (You might have to stand on the bench.)
322858
BBE spline slot could be cut on router table.

[Matt Day]

When you listed the tools, what is included in etc? Drill press? You'll want to make a guide for drilling the top. Don't attempt to freehand it with a drill. I'd use a block of maple, drill a straight hole with the DP, and cut a rabbet on the TS so you can clamp it to the top. The rabbet should be cut so the hole is centered in the table top.

For the bbe, use the guide or just the DP, or just router the slot.

To router the slots, I'd use a router guide like this one (pic taken from a tool run article).

[Matt Day]

Hoang, bbe's can help keep a table top flat but I think there is some debate as to how much it actually does.

I use them for whatever structural aid they are, and more so for aesthetic purposes.

[Jim Dwight]

I will admit up front to not being a fan of dowels. I have a doweling jig but it is admittedly a cheap one but I just have not had good luck with dowels. It seems like the grain in the wood always pushes the bit and I don't get a hole where I want. I've only worked a little with Hickory but it seems to have wilder grain than most. I would be more comfortable with a router not moving around.

You could easily put a spline in both pieces to align them and use some screws to hold the bb end in place. I have a sofa table I did this for based upon plans in fine woodworking. The outboard screws are in elongated holes. All the screws are covered by decorative plugs.

The other way to do this I would consider is to use the router to remove at least an inch from the tables length on each end to create a tenon. Mortise the bb end and glue only the middle.

I think the dowels will work IF you can keep the holes where you want them. I doubt that will be successful but I hope I am wrong. I am sure that a spline with screws or a routed tenon will work.

[Matt Day]

Good call Jim. Might make sense to have the bbe's thicker by a bit to account for non-perfectly aligned holes. Plane them to flat when done.

[Anthony Brown]

For those suggesting going the spline route, how deep am I going to have to spline to get this to work? My concern with the dowel route is routing deep enough for the slots, and it seems routing deep enough may be an issue for the spline as well. At least with the dowel route I can drill deep enough to get the dowels in there, then my only issue is creating space for the slots.

I'm not opposed to anything at this point, I just want to make sure I don't mess up the one shot that I get at this.

[Jim Dwight]

Anthony,

You are limited by router bits to about 1/2 inch deep cuts for the spline. I would probably make the spline 1/2 thick. That would be a couple cuts which would be easy to make with a router. Here are some bits like I am suggesting:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_slot.html

That length spline would not be reliable to keep the breadboard end from tilting, especially when it is only glued in the middle. That is the job of the screws through the breadboard end. That is a long screw, you might even want to use a few 1/4 lag bolts. Three would probably be enough on each end. The slotted holes on the ends will be a bit of a pain but they won't show, they will be under plugs. The thing the spline will do is to keep the breadboard surface aligned with the table top at the location of the joint.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...limited by router bits to about 1/2 inch deep cuts for the spline...


I've cut 3" deep in cherry with 1/2" spiral up-cut bit, with multiple passes, plunging ~1/4" per pass.

But, best recommendation is probably to stick with a method that you're comfortable with. Or, practice until you are.
It would kill me to wreck that much quality hardwood (...at least my wife would, when she found out I bought more lumber).

[glenn bradley]

This is not the dowel method Matt and OP are talking about. They are talking using a butt joint between the tabletop on the breadboard with only the dowels running in between to connect them. What you are showing is the classic approach. What they are doing is blazing new territory.

Wow, did I miss that :o. Shame on me for not reading more carefully since I am prone to rolling my eyes at others that do not take the time to do so. I see a strength issue with a dowels-only approach. By the time I added enough dowels to feel comfortable I would have had a spline in, pegged and been done. So many ways to skin the cat :).

[Brian Holcombe]

This is an interesting thread and lots of good info, I do have a question and hope I'm not hijacking the OP's thread. I'm also building a dining table (42"x92") but mine will have an apron to help hold down the table top. My ends will be exposed with no breadboards, will this give me issues?

In my opinion they should be combined with battens. Bread board ends are just battens on the end of the table. If you look at some Ming dynasty work they usually use a system of battens under a table attached with sliding dovetails and many of those tables have gone 400 years and remained in good condition.

You can possibly do without the BBE's but you probably should not do without a system of battens....especially for a 42" wide table.

Make absolutely certain that the battens do not bind the table or season movement will destroy it.

[Warren Wilson]

@Hoang: Yes you will have exactly the same issue when fastening an apron cross-grain as you will have fastening a breadboard end. The solutions are similar as well: fasten the center but allow the sides to expand and contract with seasonal humidities, usually with the use of slots. With aprons you can use "buttons."

Here is a pretty good overview of some techniques from Fine Woodworking. https://www.finewoodworking.com/media/TabletopsFlat.pdf

[Pat Barry]

Ok, I will stick with 3/4" dowels. Sorry about missing your earlier question. I have plunge router, router bits, router table, table saw, circular saw, etc... My plan was to drill all of the dowel holes to size and then use the router to create the slots where necessary, but now my issue is finding a router bit that will go deep enough (at least 3") that I don't have to chisel forever.

My only hesitation with the spline method is keeping the line straight on both pieces. This hickory table top is heavy and fairly unwieldy, so I'm not sure how I could route that deep enough effectively while maintaining a straight line.

I'm just trying to split the difference between assembling the table top in a manner that won't ruin it over time and not trying to do something too complicated/risky because I wasn't aware of this breadboard issue and therefore didn't plan for it.

I'm feeling pretty stupid/upset/worried right now. Lesson = learned for sure.
Lets say you go with the 3/4 inch dowels. I'd use oak dowels for example. I don't think you need to go too deep, especially into the end grain of the table top. I think you could go with a hole that is 1 1/2 in deep and it will be great as this is being glued in. The biggest thing to be concerned with is getting them in there straight, at least not angled up and down - left to right won't bother much. Like Glen stated I'd go for the ore is better approach so put them every 4 inches (for eexample). Into the bread board ends you would use your router and get the dowel hole (center or center couple) and slots done carefully using your router table. I agree with earlier idea of leaving it thicker if need be and planing down after assembly. You should be able to make the slots pretty easily - just make sure you do the depth in subsequent passes to not take too much of a bite with each pass and also make sure the fence and featherboards are set up nice and tight so they don't move on you. As far as depth into the breadboard I would try for about 2 1/4" - deeper is better I think but not at the expense of a sloppy fit to the dowels (up and down). Good luck - you can do it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Maybe a dumb question but why would anyone want to ever use breadboard ends if the edge of the table is often times going to not align with the ends of the breadboard due to expansion and contraction? Seems like it would look terrible and wife would complain about the discontinuity

1 Because they look cool, and demonstrate a next-level of effort/skill at the craft.
2 Because they perform a needed function, and can take the table top's life into multiple generations.
3 Because they look cool.

And - yep - basically the end's length never matches the table's width. To the cognoscenti that is admirable. If you want the look of dead-square corners, then don't bother with them, and that's cool too. But - not quite as cool.;)

[Anthony Brown]

Lets say you go with the 3/4 inch dowels. I'd use oak dowels for example. I don't think you need to go too deep, especially into the end grain of the table top. I think you could go with a hole that is 1 1/2 in deep and it will be great as this is being glued in. The biggest thing to be concerned with is getting them in there straight, at least not angled up and down - left to right won't bother much. Like Glen stated I'd go for the ore is better approach so put them every 4 inches (for eexample). Into the bread board ends you would use your router and get the dowel hole (center or center couple) and slots done carefully using your router table. I agree with earlier idea of leaving it thicker if need be and planing down after assembly. You should be able to make the slots pretty easily - just make sure you do the depth in subsequent passes to not take too much of a bite with each pass and also make sure the fence and featherboards are set up nice and tight so they don't move on you. As far as depth into the breadboard I would try for about 2 1/4" - deeper is better I think but not at the expense of a sloppy fit to the dowels (up and down). Good luck - you can do it.

Thanks for the info/vote of confidence! Yeah, my biggest concern with going the dowel route is the up and down movement that you described. Other than that I feel fairly confident going down that route, but after hearing everyone else's opinion, I'm unsure now. I basically don't know what I am going to do, but I need to get moving on this thing as soon as possible. I may see if there is a way for me to go the spline route if others think it's better, even though I am more hesitant to do it. I just feel like I have more room for error with drilling dowels than I do running a big spline in my parts. But if the spline route is the better way to go, then it bears investigation on my part.

Color me stuck, but I'm going to have to place a stake in the ground and make a choice very soon...good, bad, or indifferent.

[Matt Day]

I'd much prefer you go the spline route, but you seem pretty stuck on not reducing the length of the top. With your reservations with the dowel route, it would be a lot simpler task to make long cuts for the spline. That jig I referenced would work well for cutting the mortise in the top.

[Anthony Brown]

I'd much prefer you go the spline route, but you seem pretty stuck on not reducing the length of the top. With your reservations with the dowel route, it would be a lot simpler task to make long cuts for the spline. That jig I referenced would work well for cutting the mortise in the top.

Could I just make grooves in both the table and breadboard with the router and use a piece of wood to join them? That way I don't have to reduce the length of the table?

So basically make a 3" deep x however long cut in the breadboard and do the same to the table, and then use a 6" x however long piece of wood to join them? That way the table doesn't get shorter?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Could I just make grooves in both ...?

Yes, just make sure you orient the grain in your 'floating spline' (or is this a floating tenon?) properly. Else, your first cherry pie could snap it off.

[Anthony Brown]

Yes, just make sure you orient the grain in your 'floating spline' (or is this a floating tenon?) properly. Else, your first cherry pie could snap it off.


Maybe I will see about doing that then. Given that my wood is 6/4, should I go 1/2" or 3/4" thick for the "floating tenon"?

[Matt Day]

either should be fine. The rule of thirds would say 1/2". As I discussed a couple pages ago, you will need to do a glue up to make the spline so the grain is oriented. Don't think you'll be able to just mill down a single piece of lumber to size - grain will be off 90*.

[Jim Dwight]

I would use 1/2 only because it's easier and IMHO strong enough. The reason I didn't recommend a spiral upcut bit or even a bottom cutter straight bit is the difficulty using them into the end grain of the top. You need to stand the top on end and get above it. It could be done with the top horizontal but I wouldn't. It's too hard to manipulate the router that way. I do it when putting hardware on bed rails but I orient the rail at an angle so it is between horizontal and vertical. I am also removing a lot less material. If you want to go an inch or so into both pieces (no way I would go 3 inches, maybe 2) I would make a jig you can clamp on both sides - a simple L shape - so you have a flat surface of some size to orient to. I would prefer to have a template guide for this kind of cut so you don't have to use an edge guide and have the bit more guided. That wouldn't be hard to make from plywood scrap. I would definitely use a plunge router and take pretty small bites (another reason to go 1/2 inch). I would probably do the bread board end on a router table. If you do not have one, you could use the same jig on it.

If you haven't made the breadboard end yet, could you just put the tenon on it? It isn't the conventional way but I don't see where it makes any difference. That would mean you only have to slot the top. You could also make a long spline (like only 1/2 in) and 3 to 5 longer tenons where you would glue (in the center) and possibly peg (at the outside from the bottom - in oversized holes). If you do not have a problem making the deep slot this wouldn't be necessary but I think it is not going to be fun.

[Anthony Brown]

I would use 1/2 only because it's easier and IMHO strong enough. The reason I didn't recommend a spiral upcut bit or even a bottom cutter straight bit is the difficulty using them into the end grain of the top. You need to stand the top on end and get above it. It could be done with the top horizontal but I wouldn't. It's too hard to manipulate the router that way. I do it when putting hardware on bed rails but I orient the rail at an angle so it is between horizontal and vertical. I am also removing a lot less material. If you want to go an inch or so into both pieces (no way I would go 3 inches, maybe 2) I would make a jig you can clamp on both sides - a simple L shape - so you have a flat surface of some size to orient to. I would prefer to have a template guide for this kind of cut so you don't have to use an edge guide and have the bit more guided. That wouldn't be hard to make from plywood scrap. I would definitely use a plunge router and take pretty small bites (another reason to go 1/2 inch). I would probably do the bread board end on a router table. If you do not have one, you could use the same jig on it.

If you haven't made the breadboard end yet, could you just put the tenon on it? It isn't the conventional way but I don't see where it makes any difference. That would mean you only have to slot the top. You could also make a long spline (like only 1/2 in) and 3 to 5 longer tenons where you would glue (in the center) and possibly peg (at the outside from the bottom - in oversized holes). If you do not have a problem making the deep slot this wouldn't be necessary but I think it is not going to be fun.

I already have all of the pieces cut to size (not super-exact, but close enough), so cutting a tenon on it would reduce the length, unless you mean physically making and gluing a tenon onto it. Also, I am a bit confused, when discussing the dowel route it was recommended that deeper (like 4" or so) was better, but for this route, it seems like 2 " is deep enough and maybe even too deep. I do have an almost 6.75" W breadboard, so do you think that 1" is deep enough to hold that well?

[Malcolm McLeod]

I gotta learn to be more precise..!! I think the 3" deep reference came from me, and is something I did recently. It was in response to comment that you 'could only go 1/2" deep'. 3" is NOT what I'm suggesting here. Unless of course its what you want....?

Left up to me I'd probably go 2". Its a nice round number, its probably over-kill strong, and I would not be in full swivel panic trying to cut it while standing on top of my bench.

The glue and bearing area is significantly more than dowels, so depth can be reduced.

[Anthony Brown]

I gotta learn to be more precise..!! I think the 3" deep reference came from me, and is something I did recently. It was in response to comment that you 'could only go 1/2" deep'. 3" is NOT what I'm suggesting here. Unless of course its what you want....?

Let up to me I'd probably go 2". Its a nice round number, it probably over-kill strong, and I would not be in full swivel panic trying to cut it while standing on top of my bench.

The glue and bearing area is significantly more than dowels, so depth can be reduced.

Got it. So with dowels more depth is needed, but with a tenon of some sort I can cut down on the depth because it's much stronger.

[Jim Dwight]

Anthony,

Depth is just one way to get glue area and support area. Dowels would not be long in the direction of the width of the table top. So you can compensate by making them deeper. Another factor is the leverage of the breadboard end. 6.75 inches is wide. When somebody leans on the breadboard end getting up from the table, it will pry at the joint we are talking about. Longer tenons or dowels would resist that better than a little stub 1/2 inch tenon. The middle can be glued but on the ends, you have to just depend on the physical connection. Another joint consideration is just alignment on the surface. That will be better with even a stub tenon than with a dowel - unless alignment is great and you use a bunch. Those providing input are guessing what you need based upon their experience.

It is also possible to combine a stub tenon with dowels. I did that on some interior doors once. I didn't love the result but the doors worked. On subsequent doors I made the tenon a bit longer and deleted the dowels.

If you cut a groove for a stub tenon it will also help to align a subsequent deeper slot or dowel holes.

[Pat Barry]

Sure, you can do that. But make the spline long grain, and make the breadboard the fixed connection to the tongue, since the grain in the spline and breadboard will be running the same direction.
I think this is opposite the way it should be done. The splines need to be attached to the table top and slide in the breadboard (except of course at the center) and the grain needs to be oriented along the length of the table top, not along the length of the breadboard - think of the spline as a Domino or the milled features of the top as suggested by Glen and others

[Anthony Brown]

Thanks guys. A small update. I have been running a few tests and I definitely feel a bit more comfortable using dowels, but I am not ruling out tenons yet. I have a question about the dowels. I have a 3/4" spade bit that I am using to drill my test holes 3" deep. When I insert the 3/4" dowels into the holes, they don't fit "tightly". In other words there is an ever so slight bit of play in there, and I don't have to hammer the dowels into place. Is this normal? I'm thinking when I go to attach the breadboard that it will just slide on and I won't have to exert much effort or hammer it on like I have seen others do. I'm thinking this may be a bad thing. I know on the table side that glue will make this a non-issue, but for the breadboard parts that do not get glued, will this be an issue?

I appreciate all of you guys help with getting me through this project. I'm honestly getting to the point where I just want to glue the blasted thing up like I originally planned, and if it cracks, splits, or separates, oh well. I know that's not right, but I'm just having a tough time trying to choose a direction that won't lead to me starting all over because I made a mistake that can't be fixed.

[Brian Holcombe]

A well built dining table is not a simple project, I would suggest you slow whatever timeframe you have set out and take this project at a moderate pace. You are doing your research, that is good, and while you may not need to find the ideal method in every approach, taking some time to do this correctly will save many headaches in the future.

You can make a full width floating tenon that from 4/4 material that is thicknessed to 1/3 of the table's thickness. If you run the grain the same direction as the table top than you can glue it into a receiving groove in the table, then build the breadboard ends in the same fashion that Ken illustrates.

[Anthony Brown]

A well built dining table is not a simple project, I would suggest you slow whatever timeframe you have set out and take this project at a moderate pace. You are doing your research, that is good, and while you may not need to find the ideal method in every approach, taking some time to do this correctly will save many headaches in the future.

You can make a full width floating tenon that from 4/4 material that is thicknessed to 1/3 of the table's thickness. If you run the grain the same direction as the table top than you can glue it into a receiving groove in the table, then build the breadboard ends in the same fashion that Ken illustrates.

Yeah, my timeframe is going to have to slow down for sure. I probably should give everyone a little background on why I have been hesitant to go down the routing/tenon/spline path. Basically, while I do have a routing table, it isn't a great one, as it is small, lightweight and basically moves when it is running. It also has a metal feeder tray (which your material rests on) that bent and had to be bent back into place. I'm hesitant to put material on that bent tray, because it is still a bit off, and that almost certainly will cause any cuts to be off. I have already bought a few tools for this project, but I can't go overboard, so I am just trying to work with what I have.

I do have a plunge router and it does ok, but it seems to skip, jump, and struggle when I go deeper into wood, even when I make passes.

I didn't anticipate having to use any of these tools on this project, so that is why I am a bit unprepared. I thought this was basically glue-up city, only to find out (through happenstance searching) that I was wrong.

Here are some links to some things that I have built in the past:

http://www.anthonybrowncreative.com/personal-projects

These were smaller projects and the tools that I currently have worked well for these types of projects. I do have a tiny bit of woodworking skills, but nothing even approaching the level that people in this thread do. Also, the shear size and weight of this table changes the ballgame completely when it comes to making changes on the fly.

[Andrew Hughes]

I don't think you need to go so deep.Hickory is some pretty tough stuff.I bet you couldn't break off a 3/4 inch dowel with one inch embedment.I just finshed the last og my hickory stash.and ready for something soft and frendly. Good luck.

[Anthony Brown]

I don't think you need to go so deep.Hickory is some pretty tough stuff.I bet you couldn't break off a 3/4 inch dowel with one inch embedment.I just finshed the last og my hickory stash.and ready for something soft and frendly. Good luck.
Yeah, Hickory is no joke. It is every bit the 1880 the Janka hardness scale says it is. My biggest worry is breaking off the Oak dowels by going too short on the embedment. I figured that the Hickory being heavier would mean I needed a longer dowel because it was more prone to stress/snap the dowel, but it sounds like you are saying the opposite?

[Andrew Hughes]

Just make nice holes you'll be fine.Ditch the spade bit.practice on some scrap first.good luck

[Anthony Brown]

Just make nice holes you'll be fine.Ditch the spade bit.practice on some scrap first.good luck
Thanks. If I don't use the spade bit, what do you suggest for the holes then?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Thanks. If I don't use the spade bit, what do you suggest for the holes then?

Brad-point bit if going for more than 2.25"; Forstner bit will only get you to about 2.25" (depending on brand) but leaves a very clean hole.

Twist drill would do in a $$-pinch, but drill smaller pilot holes to keep it from wandering (this is only marginally better than spade bits IMHO)

[Anthony Brown]

Thanks guys. I will pick up a 3/4" Forstner bit today and get some practice in.

[Rick Johnston]

Kent, with your doweling through the tenons where you going all the way through the BB? or just doing a peg from the bottom of the BB so it was in keeping with the concealment of the connection just like on the end of the BB? Rick

[Anthony Brown]

Quick question. I am still going to do some tests with my 3/4" Forstner bit, but I am going to be using a hand drill. From what I have read about these bits is that they are extremely hard to use with a hand drill if you are going deeper than 1/4" - 1/2". Is this the case? I do not have a drill press and having one wouldn't help me for the table portion of this anyway, only the breadboard ends.

[Pat Barry]

The problem I have had with Forstner bits is clearing chips. I think the solution is to frequently raise the bit out of the work and allow the chips to clear. Then reinsert and drill - rinse and repeat. The drill press makes this all very simple as its fixtured so that you hit the hole with each subsequent drill insertion right on. Using a hand drill you can do it just needs more TLC

[Jim Dwight]

getting a straight hole parallel with the top with a hand drill won't be easy. I prefer a bit like this:

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=171034-281-49912&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=50356276&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

It might be too aggressive in feeding itself in hickory but the longer diameter at the hole size will help a lot with alignment. A Forstner bit may be a little better than a spade bit in staying aligned but the part that is hole diameter is only about 1/2 inch. This sort of bit is hole diameter deeper than the holes you are trying to make. A regular twist bit would be easier to control, however, and also is the full hole diameter for an extended length.

[Matt Day]

A forstner bit and a hand drill aren't going to work for getting parallel holes. Neither is a spade bit.

Using Jims suggested bid and a guide will be much better, but it will be tough to make the guide without a DP.

If you try with just a hand drill without some sort of drill guide you are in for disappointment.

Because of the lack of drill press, I think you should scrap the dowel idea. Do the spline and be done with it.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Anthony,
There is an old saying that "A camel is a horse designed by a committee." I am afraid we are collectively turning your table into a camel, or worse. :o

The one constant seems to be that we'd all do this differently, based on tools at hand, experience, design ethos, and comfort level. It may be small comfort, but even though we're not you, most have been where you are. Whatever your poison, practice it until you're comfortable. Even if you have to buy some 2x4s and mock up a top with any tools, jigs, and fixtures, it will be money well spent.

...Patience and good luck!!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent, with your doweling through the tenons where you going all the way through the BB? or just doing a peg from the bottom of the BB so it was in keeping with the concealment of the connection just like on the end of the BB? Rick


All the way through - top down [with scrap backer to prevent tearout]. Then, the pegs went in the same way - top down.

Rummage around to see Drawboring explained.

EDIT: RIck - a short answer that did not really answer.

The table was one piece of a commission for an entire dining room in A+C style. Table, 5 side chairs, 2 arm chairs, and 3 side tables.

Through-tenons abounded in the joinery. As did pinned tenons, with the pins showing.

So - the pins/pegs showing on the BBE was keeping with the overall oevure.

[Kent A Bathurst]

IN a quick scan through this thread, top-to-bottom, I think we have accomplished our objective: With all the different methods and conflicting details we have complicated the heck out of this to the point that the OP cannot help but have trouble. I believe that parts of the advice are completely nutso, but then, that's no doubt what they think of mine.

Our work here is done. :p

[Chris Padilla]

I'd like to invite the [OP] to start a new thread and the only requirement is if you posted in this thread, you cannot post in the new thread. ;)

[Matt Day]

I'd like to invite the [OP] to start a new thread and the only requirement is if you posted in this thread, you cannot post in the new thread. ;)

Great idea. I'd be glad to not post. Thanks

[Malcolm McLeod]

Perhaps all advice threads should have a 'right way' branch and a 'wrong way' branch?

This will be self-governing of course. Each respondent chooses which side to post their....aahhhh, wait .... this might not work. Never mind.

[Anthony Brown]

Ha, ha, you guys are too much! Actually I loved hearing about all the different methods to solve my issue. What works for someone may not work for someone else, and a different perspective on things is never a bad thing. I did feel a bit of information overload a few times, but that's not a bad thing, I was just trying to process too many things at once, while overthinking others. I prefer being on forums where people actually HELP, rather than call you names and tell you you screwed up (although I have a feeling at the end of this some of you guys may do that anyway, lol). It's all good. You guys have helped more than you know.

While I am at it, I have an update. I have drilled all of the holes into the breadboards only using the Forstner bit. I tried using the auger bit that Tim Dwight suggested and it darn near broke my wrist. I have a fairly powerful corded drill, but once that screw head from that auger bit got into the wood, it immediately stopped the drill and almost sent me to the ER. I tried it again, got the same result, and decided to scrap that idea. Maybe I need a super-powered drill, or I was just doing something wrong, I'm not sure. Anyway, as I said, my holes are drilled and they are actually fairly straight. I'm sure they are not perfect, but they are better than I expected.

My biggest challenge/hurdle right now is making sure the holes that I will drill into my table line up exactly. Does anyone have any tips/help on how I can mark the exact locations for where to drill my dowel holes in the table portion? I had found some of these (http://www.amazon.com/Milescraft-5343-Dowel-Center-8-Piece/dp/B0055HPJ22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444268165&sr=8-1&keywords=dowel+center) and was on cloud 9 until I realized that no one makes them for 3/4" dowels, so now I am back to square one. Before I do anymore drilling, I want to make sure I have as accurate of a mark as possible for these other holes.

[Andrew Hughes]

Now you just need to figure out how to make a hole in the dead center of your 3/4 inch dowel.Then stick the center finder in it.Congrats to your sucess so far.

[Prashun Patel]

Pat, my advice is wrong. I deleted that post. The spline(s) should be oriented across the joint, just as an integral or floating tenon would be. I deleted all the other posts referencing my wrong suggestion to make the spline long-grain, lest someone in the future is misled.

[Pat Barry]

Ha, ha, you guys are too much! Actually I loved hearing about all the different methods to solve my issue. What works for someone may not work for someone else, and a different perspective on things is never a bad thing. I did feel a bit of information overload a few times, but that's not a bad thing, I was just trying to process too many things at once, while overthinking others. I prefer being on forums where people actually HELP, rather than call you names and tell you you screwed up (although I have a feeling at the end of this some of you guys may do that anyway, lol). It's all good. You guys have helped more than you know.

While I am at it, I have an update. I have drilled all of the holes into the breadboards only using the Forstner bit. I tried using the auger bit that Tim Dwight suggested and it darn near broke my wrist. I have a fairly powerful corded drill, but once that screw head from that auger bit got into the wood, it immediately stopped the drill and almost sent me to the ER. I tried it again, got the same result, and decided to scrap that idea. Maybe I need a super-powered drill, or I was just doing something wrong, I'm not sure. Anyway, as I said, my holes are drilled and they are actually fairly straight. I'm sure they are not perfect, but they are better than I expected.

My biggest challenge/hurdle right now is making sure the holes that I will drill into my table line up exactly. Does anyone have any tips/help on how I can mark the exact locations for where to drill my dowel holes in the table portion? I had found some of these (http://www.amazon.com/Milescraft-5343-Dowel-Center-8-Piece/dp/B0055HPJ22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444268165&sr=8-1&keywords=dowel+center) and was on cloud 9 until I realized that no one makes them for 3/4" dowels, so now I am back to square one. Before I do anymore drilling, I want to make sure I have as accurate of a mark as possible for these other holes.
OK - good problem - let me ask a couple questions:
1) is the breadboard end the correct thickness or over sized in terms of thickness (ie: you were planning to sand / plane to match the tabletop thickness after assembly?
2) did you measure to find the center line thickness of the breadboard and then drill the holes so they were basically on center?
3) are those holes perpendicular?
Depending on 1 and 2 there are different solutions, although similar to what Andrew said, you could put a small finish nail into the end of a piece of dowel and use that as the center finder for your matching holes. You could use a small nail and cut / trim / file a point on it

[Anthony Brown]

Anthony,
There is an old saying that "A camel is a horse designed by a committee." I am afraid we are collectively turning your table into a camel, or worse. :o

The one constant seems to be that we'd all do this differently, based on tools at hand, experience, design ethos, and comfort level. It may be small comfort, but even though we're not you, most have been where you are. Whatever your poison, practice it until you're comfortable. Even if you have to buy some 2x4s and mock up a top with any tools, jigs, and fixtures, it will be money well spent.

...Patience and good luck!!

Thanks Malcolm,

It is a small comfort to know that others have been here as well. I am definitely someone who is always very hard on myself, so I have been kind of beating myself up over this as I attempt to get this right. I guess sometimes I feel like all of you guys were born great at this, which I am sure is the case in some instances, but you guys also learned by making mistakes just like me.

Thanks for the tips!


OK - good problem - let me ask a couple questions:
1) is the breadboard end the correct thickness or over sized in terms of thickness (ie: you were planning to sand / plane to match the tabletop thickness after assembly?
2) did you measure to find the center line thickness of the breadboard and then drill the holes so they were basically on center?
3) are those holes perpendicular?
Depending on 1 and 2 there are different solutions, although similar to what Andrew said, you could put a small finish nail into the end of a piece of dowel and use that as the center finder for your matching holes. You could use a small nail and cut / trim / file a point on it


Hi Pat,

1. The breadboard is the same thickness as the table. This was another error on my part, and it was made because I originally thought this would be an all glue-up assembly. Had I known about the issue with the breadboard assembly earlier, I would have left it a bit thicker.

2. Yup, that is exactly what I did.

3. For the most part, yes they are perpendicular, but there is a little variation.

I have been searching all day and night for parts to assemble a jig idea that I have similar to the dowel centers that I posted a link to earlier. I just now finally found all of the parts that I need and it looks like this jig will be the closest thing possible to dowel centers. I don't think I will be able to mark the dowel locations more accurately than this jig will, IF the jig works (which it looks like it will).

I will post a picture of my homemade "dowel centers" if they work like I am thinking they will.

[Chris Padilla]

A good positive attitude and the desire to learn is all you need so you're doing well. :)

Take a gander here to see if you find anything that might help you: click (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=702&PMCTLG=00)

[Brian Holcombe]

Alternatively you can set your center on a marking gauge and transfer it to the opposing board. I havent used a dowel center or transfer punch in about 5 years.

You can make a marking gauge quick and easy, or buy one (even easier :) )

[Anthony Brown]

A good positive attitude and the desire to learn is all you need so you're doing well. :)

Take a gander here to see if you find anything that might help you: click (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=702&PMCTLG=00)

Thanks man, it is very much appreciated for sure!

So I have another update, and the news is mostly good. After running back-and-forth all day to the hardware store buying parts for my homemade dowel center, I finally got it built and functioning how I wanted it to. Below you will see a screenshot of the final result. Basically it is a 3/4" diameter shower door wheel with a 1" long screw through it and a 1" washer with a nut attached to it. I just dropped the shower door wheel side into the holes on my breadboard, put a glob of red paint on the tip of the screws, lined it up with the marks on my table, and gave my breadboard a few hits with a hammer. That left a nice red indented dot on my table ends marking where the center of the dowel holes should be.

DOWEL CENTER:

323034

Once I finished with that I drilled all of the dowel holes in the table. I tested my holes on one side of the table with some shorter dowels and they are lining up pretty darn good. I'm not going to get too excited because I haven't tested the fit with the longer dowels I will be using for final assembly, but so far things are looking pretty good. The only bad news that I have is that when I began routing my slots in the breadboard, my router jumped yet again and made one of my holes/slots much bigger than it should be, and now the dowel is pretty loose. I was routing deep, but this was after taking a few shallower passes already. I am going to have to be super careful with my router from here on out.

I'm not sweating it too much, as I was thinking that I could basically cut some thin and wide "shims" and glue them to the top and bottom of the inside of the slotted hole to snug it back up. What do you guys thing about that? Do you guys have any better ideas? If so, I'd love to hear them.

Also, I was going to glue the 4 middle dowels into the breadboard and leave 2 on each end of the breadboard slotted, so that would give me 4 glued and 4 loose/slotted dowels per breadboard. I'd just personally prefer 4 snug and glued dowels over 2, but if that's not a good idea, then I will follow you guy's advice. What do you guys think of that idea?

Below is an image showing my table planks along with the dowel locations. This should give you a very good idea of where the dowels are located and if gluing the 4 middle ones would be OK.

DOWEL LOCATIONS:

323039

Tomorrow I am going to CAREFULLY finish routing the slots and then I will be doing a legit test fit (with longer dowels) on both sides to see exactly where I am at.

[Anthony Brown]

Ok guys, horrible update. I could really use some advice quickly. Even though I am routing 1/4" deep at a time, my router is destroying my holes and my wood. It got so bad that the router jumped really badly and put a gouge into my breadboard. LUCKILY it wasn't too bad, but I did have to lose 1/4" off of my breadboard by way of the table saw.

I am just NOT comfortable routing these holes anymore, so now I am kind of stuck. I am considering just trying to use the dowels as-is, gluing the center ones up and taking my chances, or maybe even gluing the breadboards as I originally intended. I realize that could cause issues down the road, and I tried to do it the right way, but this router is going to destroy my table before I can even build it. I even tried manually chiseling out the area that I need, but that is getting me nowhere fast.

I will hold off until I get a few responses from you guys, but I have no clue what to do now. This really sucks after yesterday looked so promising. My table is still in tact, which is good, but I'm not sure how to proceed other than what I stated above.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Awwww....man!! Bigtime duck-ology.

First step is to stand down, do nothing else until you get a sampling of advice. I wish I could help, but the entire BBE via dowel thing is outside my orbit, so I can't.

When you are digging a hole for yourself, the first thing to do is to throw the shovel away.

You have all the time you need to get it right. You have no time to rush in and make it worse.

It will all turn out well, you will have some good stories, and will show us the finished project.

[Prashun Patel]

Anthony-

If you are able to dowel them, then do that. Use thinner dowels, like 1/2" or 3/8"; ones you can drill with a hand drill. Glue the center one, leave the outside ones to float.

[Anthony Brown]

Awwww....man!! Bigtime duck-ology.

First step is to stand down, do nothing else until you get a sampling of advice. I wish I could help, but the entire BBE via dowel thing is outside my orbit, so I can't.

When you are digging a hole for yourself, the first thing to do is to throw the shovel away.

You have all the time you need to get it right. You have no time to rush in and make it worse.

It will all turn out well, you will have some good stories, and will show us the finished project.

You aren't lying my brother. When I saw the damage to my breadboard, I didn't know whether to cry or get angry. Once I took a step back and fixed that issue I moved on to at least making sure all of the dowels line up, which they actually do except for one.


Anthony-

If you are able to dowel them, then do that. Use thinner dowels, like 1/2" or 3/8"; ones you can drill with a hand drill. Glue the center one, leave the outside ones to float.

Thanks for the advice, I apologize but I am a bit confused. I've already drilled the holes for my 3/4" dowels (they all fit except for one too, so I did get that right, lol). Are you saying to re-drill more dowel holes for thinner dowels? If so then that puts me right back at square one again of having to route room for the floating dowels.

Or do you mean use my existing dowels and just glue the center ones?

Thanks.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Alignment of dowel holes in a joint is always the toughest part, and gets exponentially worse as the length of the joint increases. (Watched my dad cuss them for years (pre-biscuit-joiner-days)). I try to avoid dowels, so take this with the caution it's offered.

Something you might try:
Since you've got a plunge router, try to fix the router base exactly where you want it - - router support base clamped to BBE, fences, etc. Make sure nothing can move.
Then plunge straight down to your final depth.
Move, re-align, re-clamp, and plunge again. ...kind of like a drill press?
Repeat until you have 90-95% of the material removed from the slotted holes.
Finally, you can either clean up the remaining ridges with a chisel, or re-try the router with a conventional fenced arrangement - since the tendency for the wood to 'steer' the bit will be lessened.
Then move to the next hole.

Just when you think you'll NEVER finish, you're moving at exactly the right speed.

FWIW - This issue is why some people have erotic dreams about Festool Domino.

[Pat Barry]

...I am just NOT comfortable routing these holes anymore, so now I am kind of stuck. ...
Anthony, To do the slots successfully you need to do light passes back and forth or plunge many times side by side with lots of overlap. Even so, the most key thing is to get your fence and feather boards set up with absolutely no play - just a nice slip fit. You CANNOT do this safely by hand without the fence and featherbaords. I do not have a plunge router myself so I have to mark my slots, carefully lower the work onto the bit and then route the breadboard by moving the work laterlly to the other desired slot end. Your slot doesn't need to be very long - maybe for the outermost ones you would go +/- 3/8" from the center. If you are using a 3/4" bit in the router for example, you really need to take light passes. To lower the work onto the bit you need to have one end, lets say the right end of your workpiece held down to the table and act as a rotation point to the bring the work down to the bit . In this manner, with the fence and feather board and the workpiece contacting the router table you are then tasked with lower the workpiece SLOWLY to engage the bit. Lift off from the opposite end in a similar manner or better yet, shut of the router and wait for it to stop.

Take a look at this wood magazine article (http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/routing/routing-perfect-slots/) for example of what I am saying

With regard to your previous note - certainly you can glue in shims if needed and re-route the slots. I see no issue with this at all.

With regard to gluing in the dowels. I think your idea of gluing the center few makes sense

[Jim Dwight]

I agree with Pat and will also note that you need to watch the rotation direction. If you cut in one direction, it will push the wood away from the fence. If you cut the other way, it will pull the wood tighter to the fence. You want the latter - but you also do not want to climb cut - cut backwards. A 3/4 bit is also pretty large, you may have better control with it slowed down. If you can plunge it down to remove most of the material and then remove the material separating the holes, that will go better than directly making a slot. It's too late now but 1/2 is more in line with most routers.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Are you using a router table, or a hand-held router?

To use a hand-held router, make sure the stock is clamped securely, and there is a flat surface to support the router so it can't tip. Set the guide fence to run along a reference edge, putting the bit at the proper distance from the edge. Make sure you take a very small bite, lowering the bit only a little after each pass - 1/8" is enough. Note that as you move the router along, the spinning bit cuts wood by pushing sideways at the front of the cut. With a hand-held router oriented with the bit pointing down and the router moving forward, the bit is moving to the right as it cuts, forcing the router to the left. That's important because this sideways force can either help or hurt. You want to use it to push the fence against the reference, not pull it away. Since the router tends to go to the left, that means you want the fence to the right, so it's pulled into the stock.

You absolutely need a guide fence, even if it's just a straight stick of wood clamped to the router base. It should be pressed tightly against the stock as you plunge into the wood, and kept in contact as you slowly slide the fence along, then lift the bit. If there's very little wood left to cut, you might get away with moving the router back in the opposite direction while focusing on making sure the fence is held tightly to the work. But it's easier and safer to cut in one direction only with a plunge router.

It's possible to use a router table instead of a hand-held router, but even more important to make sure to cut in the right direction, as you can injure yourself as well as the work if you lose control. Directions are upside down and backwards from those I gave above, so if you are using a router table, follow someone else's instructions.

[Anthony Brown]

Thanks for all of the help guys. I think I am going to take a break for a few days, collect my thoughts and figure out a plan of action. I will report back with info as soon as I have it.