Do I need a router?

[Evan Ryan]

I want to cut grooves in 1/2" plywood, and I'm getting terrible results using hand tools.

i don't have a table saw*, but I've got a circular saw, and I was thinking of trying that to cut grooves.
Or should i forget the circular saw and take the bus to the Borg and buy a Bosch 2.3 hp router and a spiral bit?

if I buy a router to get these grooves cut, I'd like to be able to use the router for dados in 3/4" plywood.

Also can I use a plunge router for these jobs, or do grooves and dados require a router table?


*a table saw with a dado stack purchase is way out on the horizon for a few more years.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I want to cut grooves in 1/2" plywood, and I'm getting terrible results using hand tools.

i don't have a table saw*, but I've got a circular saw, and I was thinking of trying that to cut grooves.
Or should i forget the circular saw and take the bus to the Borg and buy a Bosch 2.3 hp router and a spiral bit?

if I buy a router to get these grooves cut, I'd like to be able to use the router for dados in 3/4" plywood.

Also can I use a plunge router for these jobs, or do grooves and dados require a router table?


*a table saw with a dado stack purchase is way out on the horizon for a few more years.

great idea on all counts
That Bosch is a great choice, but forget the bus and order it online. Try reconditioned, only difference is warranty.

[pat warner]

Your questions cry out for a woodworking course of some sort.
I would advise against a router until you have a woodworking class of some quality.
The Bosch is a great router, lots of capability.
But you won't learn how to use it at the store.
And all routers are dangerous without tutored priors.

[Keith Weber]

A router will do a good job of making dadoes in plywood. A simple, straight piece of wood or plywood can be clamped to the plywood being routed to be used as a guide. Just be wary of the direction of rotation of your cutter. Your router bit will cut on the leading edge of the cut, not on the back. You want the router to pull into your guide and not away from it. Take multiple passes if it's a deep dado.

[Evan Ryan]

I have taken classes and they did include using a router table. But I have never owned a router and I don't think that I've ever used one not in a table. I do appreciate your concern and thanks to everyone who is giving me advice on here. I will def read all instructions, work safe and go slow. Power tools are not my favorite but I am comfortable with table saws, circular saws, drills and grinders.

[Mike Schuch]

I want to cut grooves in 1/2" plywood, and I'm getting terrible results using hand tools.

i don't have a table saw*, but I've got a circular saw, and I was thinking of trying that to cut grooves.
Or should i forget the circular saw and take the bus to the Borg and buy a Bosch 2.3 hp router and a spiral bit?j

if I buy a router to get these grooves cut, I'd like to be able to use the router for dados in 3/4" plywood.

Also can I use a plunge router for these jobs, or do grooves and dados require a router table?


*a table saw with a dado stack purchase is way out on the horizon for a few more years.

By grooves do you mean groves in the edges of the plywood or dados in the faces of the plywood? What are you trying to build?

A little instruction from a class or even a knowledgable friend might save you a lot of pain, agony and a couple fingers. A friend of mine is rebuilding a poker table. It took me about 10 minutes to go over the proper use of a router and how it is easy to loose control of a router if you make a climb cut instead of a normal cut. I demostrated on a couple feet of the edge then watched him for another couple of feet before turning him loose on his own. Pretty much the same thing my father did with me on each of his tools when Iwas young. Everyone has to learn proper use of what ever tool some how and it is much easier and safer to learn from someone that knows how to use the tool properly. There is no shame in getting proper instruction and asking for instruction is the sign of a wise person.

[Allan Speers]

Evan,

You might consider also getting a tracksaw system, one that offers an optional router attachment. Eurekazone & Festool do, I don't know about the others.

This makes it MUCH easier to do the type of jobs you listed, esp plunge dados. Additionally, Keith Weber's warning about bit rotation is very important, (make sure you understand this) but it is not a factor if your router is on a track. In fact, on a track, you can have the bit spin in the "wrong" direction on purpose, which actually gives a better finish.

Oh, and then you'll have a tracksaw for breaking down those big sheets of plywood.
- And right at the back of your truck, if you want. (and you will want.) :)

[David Eisenhauer]

You can use either a plunge or fixed base router, but I would buy a plunge router if that is the only one you will have any time soon and you will not need to use a router table. As stated above, set up a guide that is offset the amount required to result in your router bit being centered where you want it and figure out the rotation of the bit so that you are actively "pushing" the router into the cut rather than the router wanting to "pull" itself ahead. I recommend a 1/2" carbide bit as plywood is hard on bits. You will need some type of table to put the ply on and clamp it securely so as to eliminate movement and any buckles in the plywood. Practice on some scrap before cutting the real thing. Pat Warner (responded above) has some excellent books on router use. Use hearing and eye protection.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Do yourself a favor and forget about using a router with and edge guide & a bit that comes close to the thickness of the plywood to cut dados.
Same pretty much goes to using a stacked dado blade unless it's a Dial-a-Width type.
The odd sized thickness of the plywood will drive you nuts and leave you with loose sloppy joints and wacky out of square projects.

Get a good plunge router & pick up a set of brass guide bushings & build a self centering jig. (just google router dado jig)
Just make sure you get the right sized guide bushings and - spend the extra couple bucks to get the centering setup for the bushings.
IIRC, the Bosch uses odd sized bushings - you need to use Bosch bushings or buy and adaptor to use Porter Cable (the "standard") size bushings.


I've got a circular saw, and I was thinking of trying that to cut grooves. You won't want to try that more than once or twice.....
I parachuted twice in my life. I did it twice because I was so scared the first time my mind blanked out the experience :D. I went back for a second jump just so I'd remember the experience!
Using a circular saw to cut a dado is sort of like that.....
I have a very expensive and precise Festool track saw & I won't use that for a dado again unless there's absoultly nothing else to use......even a stacked dado blade that's oversize.....it's a pretty miserable experience..

Also google Pat Warner and visit his website. It's a treasure trove of excellent information.

[Evan Ryan]

By grooves do you mean groves in the edges of the plywood or dados in the faces of the plywood? What are you trying to build?

Rabbets on the edges and dados for shelves, I forgot they're called rabbets.

I'm building a cabinet for vinyl records and I want vertical dividers, so I want grooves that will capture the dividers.

I usually build plywood cabinets with pocket screws and I've always wanted to be able to rabbet in the back and dado in shelves.

[Curt Harms]

I agree with Rich about the self centering router jig except for small pieces. The jig I use has to clamped to the work piece and I can't figure out a way to clamp the jig to small pieces so router table it is. The benefit of the type of jig that is essentially 2 parallel pieces is that you can use the shelf that will fit the dado to set the dado width. I use a 1/2" top bearing pattern bit and let the bearing ride on the jig's 'jaws'. Way fewer problems with poor fitting dados. For rabbets I prefer a rabbeting bit but they can certainly be cut with a straight bit as well.

[pat warner]

" I've ever used one not in a table. I do appreciate your concern and thanks to everyone who is giving me advice on here. I will def read all instructions, work safe and go slow".
*********************************************
Respectable attitude.
And in your case, I would recommend the hand router.
At least you can see what's goin' on.
But before you commit project stock, practice routing on scrap.
Learn the arithmetic of positioning and do this with very little cutter extension, say <1/8".
Might take all day too, but there
are just too many surprises without priors.

[Tom Jones III]

For a different answer you might try to ask this question over on the Neander forum. Although hand tools and plywood don't really mix well, if you only had to cut one dado, I might try cutting the sides with a circular saw using a guide, then using a hand powered router plane or any number of other hand tools to clean out the dado.

One thing nobody has asked, do you have to use plywood? Hand tools would be much more pleasant to use and do a better job on solid wood.

[Lester Sak]

I want to cut grooves in 1/2" plywood, and I'm getting terrible results using hand tools.

You mentioned not having luck using hand tools. Have you tried a router plane? Lee Valley has a very nice one: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=52609&cat=1,41182,41192&ap=1. You can read a very thorough review here: http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/veritasrouterplane.htm

I just bought the Bosch MRC23EVSK router and it's an excellent tool. But if you do decide to go the power route, definitely respect the tool. I nearly took the tip of my finger off with a router in my table almost 2 years ago. Healed well, but still numb.

[Evan Ryan]

Thank you for all the great advice. I'm in a bookstore about to buy one or two router books. Patrick Warner is represented.

plywood is where this project is economically. If it was a hardwood proj I'd def stick with hand tools.
I end up doing a lot of plywood projects. Which is ok, because hardwood and hand tools takes time to get to pro grade for clients*.

i will come back to this thread and update, and of course any more advice is appreciated.

*mother in law wanted night stands in an odd size that she couldn't buy. Great. I'm on it.
at the wood store, I thought why not use real maple, glue up panels, plane em down, gorgeous.
nope. Tear out. I resharpened all my planes several times, reground bevel angles, learned to use a scraper, read tons of threads on here. She got beautiful plywood night stands and I have 12 maple panels.

[Andrew Joiner]

Yes Ryan tearout is almost impossible to prevent with hand planing.
We discussed a contest here:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?140934-Hand-planing-Beats-Power-Sanding-in-Contest

As it turns out the "pro hand tool guy" and his best handplane efforts left some tearout on the finished product,so maybe the judges missed that?

So don't get discouraged. There's a reason why most commercial shops use power tools.

[David Eisenhauer]

If you are needing some dados to capture dividers in a cabinet, a simple "Tee" square router guide made with the exact bit used (ply dado bit at 23/32" diam) to cut the dados with is easy top make and effective. One tip - It is better to not blow through the exit end of the dado with the router bit at the end of the run, as it will splinter the cabinet at the exit point. That is one place where a short run (perhaps an inch or so) of "backwards" or climb cutting routing is required. Hold on tight and go slow. Practice ahead of time. That Tee square guide will always work with that router and bit combo from then on.

[Mike Schuch]

Rabbets on the edges and dados for shelves, I forgot they're called rabbets.

I'm building a cabinet for vinyl records and I want vertical dividers, so I want grooves that will capture the dividers.

I usually build plywood cabinets with pocket screws and I've always wanted to be able to rabbet in the back and dado in shelves.

Understanding what you are building helps. I always make dados and rabbets with a saw... usually my radial arm saw.

The disadvantage of a router is that one side of the rabbet will be cut by the router bit in the direction of travel of the router. The other side will be cut by the router bit in the opposite direction. One of the sides will have a lot more tear out than the other. A saw with a dado blade would not have this problem.

You can minimize the tear out on the dado's by scoring the edges of the dados with a knife before cutting the dados and by proper selection of the router bit. Like I said I don't cut my dados with a router so I am not sure on the bit selection. My hunch would be a down cut spiral bit?

I will open the question up the the forum... Which style router bit will give the least amount of tear out when cutting dados? Straight? Up Cut? Down Cut? Other?

You are correct, dadoed slots for the dividers will be a much nicer construction method for what you are building. Do you own a table saw?

[Jim Dwight]

You're asking the question of people who own, on average, more than one router. I have 4. So you know what answer you are going to get. This would be a good choice:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1617EVSPK-4-Horsepower-Variable-Collets/dp/B00005RHPD

I have two PC 690s with 4 bases (two fixed, one plunge, one D-handle) plus a couple more decent routers and two crummy ones.

If your wood is in big pieces, it's easier to move the router over the board. If your boards are relatively small, it's better to move the board past the router bit. In the case of the latter, you need a router table. That can be as simple as a hole in a sink cutout (or piece of melamine particle board) and a piece of 2X material with a partial hole for the bit and clamps to hold it to the sink cutout in the right position. Screw the fixed base to the board and support it and you are ready to cut. I have one router table setup in an extension table of my table saw and another router table. If you want to move the router over the board, you need a way to hold it to a workbench and a guide. There are lots of ways to do the guide. My favorite has two parallel pieces of plywood edged with hard maple that are set to slightly wider than the plywood (maybe one business card wider) and then you route the groove with a top bearing straight bit. You don't need a bit the same width as the plywood, you want one narrower. You just make a couple passes.

[Ken Kortge]

the Bosch uses odd sized bushings - you need to use Bosch bushings or buy and adaptor to use Porter Cable (the "standard") size bushings.

Rich,

Not to hijack this thread, but I'm trying to figure out what makes the Bosch bushing sizes are odd. I compared Bosch's outer diameters to that of Porter-Cable's guide kit. Of the 7 P-C bushing sizes I see that Bosch has matching sizes. Two of the P-C bushing sizes (3/8" & 51/64") don't have Bosch counterparts. Are those two sizes important for templates?

Also, just to mention it ... my reconditioned Bosch 1617EVS router combo kit (both fixed and plunge bases) actually came with the RA1126 quick release attachment. So I would just have to buy the bushing inserts (guides) themselves.

[Allan Speers]

The disadvantage of a router is that one side of the rabbet will be cut by the router bit in the direction of travel of the router. The other side will be cut by the router bit in the opposite direction. One of the sides will have a lot more tear out than the other. A saw with a dado blade would not have this problem.


True, and this is why I recommended getting a track system. Again, with a router on a track, you can go in either direction safely, so you can choose direction based on the best finish, not safety.

Also, the track sled makes it easy to dial-in the exact edges & start-stop point. (The Eurekazone does, at least.)

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm trying to figure out what makes the Bosch bushing sizes are oddKen, They (Bosch) don't accept Porter Cable screw in bushings. A lot of routers use the Porter Cable bushings. Bosch doesn't. You have to use Bosch guide bushings or buy an adapter that allows you to use PC bushings.


I will open the question up the the forum... Which style router bit will give the least amount of tear out when cutting dados? Straight? Up Cut? Down Cut? Other?
Mike - Upcut spiral & self centering jig. The jig allows you to use a 1/2" bit and route both sides seperate to give glass smooth 100% straight cuts with dead square bottoms (no "bat ears" like a dado blade)

[Evan Ryan]

I routed practice grooves and it was easy thanks to all the advice.

322958

I bought the bosch router 1617 with the plunge attachment included, quick change template guide, template guide set, Freud plywood bits, one down cut bit, and a Freud multi rabbet kit.
The only injuries I sustained happened while trying to get the Freud bits out of their package.

I have one more question about the multi rabbet kit. the instructions are so small and lacking in detail I can't tell which way I'm supposed to put the washers onto the bit to support the bearing.
does anyone have experience with this bit set and have the answer?

Thanks again to everyone who helped me get started.

[Charles Wiggins]

I want to cut grooves in 1/2" plywood, and I'm getting terrible results using hand tools.

i don't have a table saw*, but I've got a circular saw, and I was thinking of trying that to cut grooves.
Or should i forget the circular saw and take the bus to the Borg and buy a Bosch 2.3 hp router and a spiral bit?

if I buy a router to get these grooves cut, I'd like to be able to use the router for dados in 3/4" plywood.

Also can I use a plunge router for these jobs, or do grooves and dados require a router table?


*a table saw with a dado stack purchase is way out on the horizon for a few more years.

No. You don't NEED a router to do that. Routers are great to have but you can do dadoes with a circular saw and chisel, and in some cases you don't even need the chisel: http://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/skillsaw_dado.html

[Rich Engelhardt]

Charles - try that with a 23.5" deep cabinet carcass.
It gets real unfun real fast.
Even with my Festool TS55EQ track saw it was a pain.
The router OTOH - is/was so much easier and faster.

I only used the track saw to see if it would do it.

[Peter Quinn]

You need a router, it will open up your wood working immensely concerning plywood, really hard to work plywood with hand planes, its just not meant for that. The bosch is a great unit. You don't need a plunge router for through dados and grooves, but its handy for other things, so if I were to own just one router it would be a plunge router, but fixed base generally have a lower handle position/center of gravity, so I find them easier to control for grooves. Do practice on scraps as suggested, keep both hands on the wheel, if the router gets the idea for in a second that you are not firmly in control the little gremlin inside will take over and make a left turn, which can get expensive and dangerous. Remember, few things happen in a single pass with a router...small bites, sharp bits. And get a book by Pat, or take a class on routers, its amazing what some people get out of them with a bit of ingenuity.

[Jesse Busenitz]

You don't need a router.... you need several! I have two bosch 2 hp and two porter cable one 2 hp and then a smaller one that's always set up with a round over bit. the other 3 serve between the dovetail setup, router table, and other misc, but it's so nice to leave them setup instead of changing bits all the time.

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=Rich Engelhardt;2474347]Ken, They (Bosch) don't accept Porter Cable screw in bushings. A lot of routers use the Porter Cable bushings. Bosch doesn't. You have to use Bosch guide bushings or buy an adapter that allows you to use PC bushings.

I have the Bosch router with a Pat Warner base on it. It takes PC bushings.

I suggest you get a small router to start with and experiment with it. A soft start router and small bits are easier to learn with.

I do have soft start 2 hp routers, but I'm afraid of 3HP large routers with large bits. I can't imagine using a 3HP hand tool free hand or even with guide bushings.

[Mark W Pugh]

Do yourself a favor and forget about using a router with and edge guide & a bit that comes close to the thickness of the plywood to cut dados.
Same pretty much goes to using a stacked dado blade unless it's a Dial-a-Width type.
The odd sized thickness of the plywood will drive you nuts and leave you with loose sloppy joints and wacky out of square projects.



Actually, they make bits that are the size of plywood. I use them all the time and the ply fits like a glove. They are straight bits and mine came in a set for 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 (the actual sizes of modern ply)

From Mike "I will open the question up the the forum... Which style router bit will give the least amount of tear out when cutting dados? Straight? Up Cut? Down Cut? Other?"

I use cheap straight bits from Woodcraft, I think their Woodriver, the green ones. I buy them when they are on sale. I have rabbeted, and dadoed, a lot of ply with good results.

[Mike McGrath]

Evan, the Bosch 1617 is my favorite router and I have owned/used most that are available in the US. I would urge you to consider using dust collection because it greatly reduces clean up time, makes it easier to see what you are routing and keeps your lungs healthy. The quick change adapter lets you swap out guide bushings with the dust collection accessory installed and without having to remove the bit or change your depth settings. Newer models by Bosch require a centering cone to accurately center the sub base plate; this can also be used for centering your router on a mounting plate.
323006

[Tom Ewell]

but I'm afraid of 3HP large routers with large bits. I can't imagine using a 3HP hand tool free hand or even with guide bushings.

I haven't used my old PC 7539 free hand with excessively large bits designed for table applications but for hogging out stair carriages for treads/risers and the like, it's a treat.
The weight and power yields very smooth operation even for larger edge profiling when needed.

It's not one particularly beneficial for trimming edge banding but if your stock is large, flat and secure, this large router is actually pretty easy to handle once you get it on the surface.

I wouldn't recommend this router as an everyday tool but there is definitely a place for one.