Upgrading my door process.

[Martin Wasner]

I've been on a mission this year to make doors faster, better, and more consistent. For years my manufacturing of doors has relied on two shapers and a mix match of insert cutters of different diameters, offsets, tongue sizes, and heights, plus a brazed straight cutter. It worked. Although very not very consistently, and very slowly. Early on I adopted using an outboard fence for sizing sticking, (also my faceframe stock), it eliminated snipe on the ends, and produced a part that wasn't relying on accurate ripping to get the correct size part. This process has gone through a few variations, from moving a fence that was clamped down for every size. To a fixed fence and a series of spacers made from Baltic Birch. The latter is what I'm still doing at the moment. The plan is to attach a pair of linear bearings and rods to the side of my main shaper and have a fence with a digital read out that can be dialed in quickly. That will help speed things up dramatically, and take out the environmental component of the plywood not beings exactly what it is supposed to be due to temperature and humidity changes.

With two shapers making doors one shaper remained set up as a coper at all times, the other did the rest of the duties. Panel raising, sticking, sizing of sticking, and sizing of face frame stock. As well as anything else that needed to be run through the shaper. Both are light duty Powermatic Model 27 shapers and not really up to the duty cycle of cabinet shop work.

The first thing I did this year for upgrading my door setup was I found a SAC TS120 8-1/2hp shaper with a 1" spindle that from the get go I wanted to setup as a panel raiser. I got it cheap on an auction. I think with the winning bid, buyers premium, fuel, paying a Millwright to load it in my pickup, and putting a new four wheel Steff power feed on it I've got about $2700 into it. I had a three wing LRH insert head that is in it currently. (I've got a cousin who has a four wing insert panel raiser he had custom made that I really want to try in the SAC. Slow the spindle speed down and that thing should leave glass behind with no burning.) Even though I don't do a ton of raised panel stuff, tearing down the main shaper to setup for panel raising was a massive pain in the rear. Especially when a door was made incorrectly and it had to be done a few times in a job. Plus a five horsepower shaper is really borderline on power doing a full pass scoop in harder material. I also wanted to have a continuous fence instead of having a bearing for the panel to ride on. I think the added support helps with tear out, plus there's no "bumps" in the feeding of panels, they just truck on through smoothly. I'm very pleased with the setup so far even though it's probably only ran about 30 panels through it this year.

Through this website I was contacted by another member who had a SCMi T130N shaper for sale in absolutely mint condition that I purchased to replace the 27S that was my main shaper. Having a height readout, the ability to stack three cutters on the spindle, and for all intensive purposes zero runout improved everything. The quality of cut is substantially better. The fit of the cope to the stick is phenomenal, and when sizing face frame material I was getting a shiny smooth cut. I was doing all of my straight cuts with the shaper in reverse and doing a climb cut for essentially zero tear out with both this shaper and the Powermatic, but the results from the SCMi are outstanding. Sanding up stuff with a DA sander on the straight cuts is now effortless. This shaper also received a Steff 4 wheel power feeder.

So now I have the SCMi doing sticking, sizing face frame stock, and doing some miscellaneous small mouldings. The SAC does panel raising, a Powermatic Model 27 doing the coping for ogee and quarter round profiles, and a Powermatic Model 27S that is currently setup for coping shaker style doors.

This is the whole reason for this post. (and my bragging a bit) :eek:

http://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-0/p235x350/12063788_10206446660436542_9029283761709273051_n.j pg?oh=22815e614884d900b5c25b1a14921302&oe=568D2151

http://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12032075_10206446660196536_1532477104525351992_n.j pg?oh=7cfc6bf20a4c7dbbb6f5a2433dcbf024&oe=569F9952


In there is left and right cope heads for quarter round, and ogee. A single cope head for shaker style. Sticking cutters for quarter round, ogee, and shaker. And in the second picture, a four wing, opposite shear, carbide insert straight cutter. Almost $7k in heads and extra knives. This is what is going to drastically improve everything across the board. The door specific heads are all the same diameter, all the some offset, all the same minor diameter, all the same tongue. The two Powermatic shapers for the time being will be setup as copers. When a profile change needs to happen on the copers, I just swap heads and make no changes to spindle height or fence position. Having left and right copes eliminates the need for a coped backer stick and the hassles that accompany that. Assuming I won't have more than two different sticking profiles in one job, I'll load the needed profiles and the straight cutter into the SCMi and to change profiles or go to the straight cutter I will just raise and lower the spindle to a number on the readout.

I'm pretty amped up for my next job to start.

The next step will be dumping the Powermatic shapers, or putting them into some extremely light duty job. I'd like to have separate shapers setup for each coping profile at some point, but that is a ways down the road. I would also like to get something like the Unique double end automatic coper as well, but you still have to have shapers setup for the rails that are too long to fit in between the spindles of the Unique. Like large paneled end rails.

[Martin Wasner]

Oh, and JR, they are from Dimension in Tooling

[Will Boulware]

Beautiful! Since you're posting pictures, can we see a finished product or two, and possibly that TS120 while you're at it? :D

[Martin Wasner]

Beautiful! Since you're posting pictures, can we see a finished product or two, and possibly that TS120 while you're at it? :D


Here's the TS120 when I picked her up. It sat for a while in way the heck up north, northern Minnesota. Like dang near Canada North. I'm thinking the place it was at wasn't heated over the winter, when the warm weather came that 1500# chunk of steel took a while to warm up, so it rusted. A lot!

http://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11050688_10205486750559395_1234918679960897448_n.j pg?oh=a099e65709df09249de7529c79250b03&oe=569137CF

Here it is in a usable state. Though this may have been before I actually had used it. Doesn't look like it's wired in this picture

http://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11796433_10206019782724866_2533481831449351579_n.j pg?oh=671a5411c10c0706739ec922f97a473b&oe=5699A482


Finished product

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/7f59bd_bd3cc823483f4f96a0e01eafe14bb281.jpg_srb_p_ 911_607_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srb

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/7f59bd_e214f7eb4210448193e2cfa6567f6e00.jpg_srb_p_ 911_607_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srb

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/7f59bd_0e08a993e7a74950a0c6cb5d84eb6e8a.jpg_srb_p_ 911_607_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srb



I haven't used the new cutters yet. Probably next week when we get rolling on the next job.

[Peter Quinn]

Your doing beautiful work Martin, and looks like you've made a big leap forward in terms of door production. Next move a digital "class" level shaped like SCMI or Martin? If love to see a back fence that attaches to both sides of the shaper table, has DRO's for depth adjustment, and a precise micro adjustable mechanism. Something after market, like the sort of thing on a Bridgeport for table positions in the XY axis.

[Will Boulware]

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor!! :eek: Beautiful work, sir!

[Martin Wasner]

Your doing beautiful work Martin, and looks like you've made a big leap forward in terms of door production. Next move a digital "class" level shaped like SCMI or Martin? If love to see a back fence that attaches to both sides of the shaper table, has DRO's for depth adjustment, and a precise micro adjustable mechanism. Something after market, like the sort of thing on a Bridgeport for table positions in the XY axis.


Thanks Peter, I've worked myself into a very nice niche. Higher end stuff, but not the ridiculous big projects with a half million cabinet bill, but I'm not working for poor people like myself either.

I don't see myself getting a smart shaper ever. Next step in door sticking and face frame stock would be a moulder. Coping is best done in either an automatic coper like the one Unique sells for $35k, or individual shapers dedicated to their task in my opinion. I would like someone to come out with a digital fence with a key pad like a Tigerstop though for my current setup. Punch in what you want and keep running material.

This will appease this bottleneck for a bit, next major tool purchase is a CNC dovetailer, then a nesting CNC for cutting out box work and machining. Other than the new shop which is almost 9k sq/ft that I need to build.

[Andrew Hughes]

Might fine looking Kitchens,looks like it's stright out of Americas finest kitchens Magazine.
I didn't realize tooling for shapers were that expensive.Now I don't feel so bad about spending a couple hundred dollars on a Dovetail Chisel.Thanks for sharing your work Martin.

[Max Neu]

Looks like your headed in the right direction.I think you are a perfect candidate for a modern shaper like a Martin. I was in your shoes s while back trying to get efficient with shaper work. Once I got my Martin, I never looked back,it was a big relief getting rid of all the clutter.

[Martin Wasner]

Looks like your headed in the right direction.I think you are a perfect candidate for a modern shaper like a Martin. I was in your shoes s while back trying to get efficient with shaper work. Once I got my Martin, I never looked back,it was a big relief getting rid of all the clutter.


The problem for me is having one shaper setup to do something means only one person can do that task. I can have three people cranking parts if need be with the setup I've got now. Square footage is cheap. Smart shapers are awesome, but for what I do, I don't think they make sense is pretty much the same pieces over and over again.

[jack duren]

Most shops just get into the Weaver shapers for doors. Its pretty much said and done. The system easily pays for itself...

[J.R. Rutter]

Looks good Martin! (I was going to ask who made them.) Good tooling goes a long way, and the finish off of the inserts is great.

One thing to keep in mind about Unique is that their spindles aren't the greatest unless you are going for the high end electrospindles. I would be tempted to find a couple of linear guided coping clamps to put on the Powermatics, first. I've seen people use the Unique cope unit on a better shaper, like a T40 MiniMax. Or keep an eye out on eBay for copecrafters and adapt them onto a linear guide.

[Martin Wasner]

I've got a pair of the Reliable cope clamps. They're okay.

The unit I priced out I think had hsk spindles and the quick change turrets. The auto feed and safety aspect of that machine is intriguing. I had some sticker shock, but $35k doesn't seem that out of line if you think about it for a bit.

[peter gagliardi]

One thing to keep in mind about Unique is that their spindles aren't the greatest unless you are going for the high end electrospindles. .
JR, could you elaborate just a bit on this? Is the spindle machining poor? Or cheap bearings? Or???
Martin, those are a huge step forward in machine quality from the PM. I started with a PM 27 as well, and made it do many things it wasn't built for, before I knew what I was using and what I should be looking for!
The gent at the store assured me he was selling me an " Industrial" shaper, and I thought it was until a friend bought an old cast iron Greenlee shaper that the table weighed more than my whole PM shaper!!
I found that I was running a 4" diameter x 4" tall steel corrugated head on my PM, and it was taller than my bearing spacing on the PM! Of course that is what the gent told me the machine was capable of.
I then moved into an SAC like yours but with a sliding table, and from there, into the Martins. I do have about a half dozen of the old cast iron US shapers that I bought specifically to set up like you have to speed the mundane door production when needed, but I am afraid that I probably will never do so at this point, because they take up space, they need dust collection, and my setup times are so minimal, fast, and repeatable with what I have now that the sacrifices aren't worth the cost.
Nice work as well!

[J.R. Rutter]

JR, could you elaborate just a bit on this? Is the spindle machining poor? Or cheap bearings? Or???

More that the spindles are closer to the PM27 than the SAC and SCM shapers. Smaller quill assemblies and bearings. Just pointing out that some of the industry people I have spoken to about machines like the Voorwood and Unique are not impressed with the spindles compared to heavier shapers. The joke is: "That's why they have to add the sanding heads." I know that the cope machine is not a shape/sand, but just wanted to mention the spindle comparison.


I've got a pair of the Reliable cope clamps. They're okay.

The unit I priced out I think had hsk spindles and the quick change turrets. The auto feed and safety aspect of that machine is intriguing. I had some sticker shock, but $35k doesn't seem that out of line if you think about it for a bit.

I like the Ritter TESA clamp with individual clamp cylinders as opposed to the bar, plus the side pressure clamp. It might be worthwhile to add an inexpensive side clamp to the Reliable clamps. What do you use for guides? Miter bar or?

Unique has definitely gotten better with their latest machinery using the router type spindles.

[Martin Wasner]

I started with a PM 27 as well, and made it do many things it wasn't built for, before I knew what I was using and what I should be looking for!

I bought the Powermatic 27S brand new in probably 2007 or 2008, I remember thinking I'll never need anything more than that. It's funny how perspectives change. There isn't anything that PM currently makes that I have any interest in owning. They've got a big planer, but I can't imagine its very good when it's less than half the cost of a comparable SCMi, Casasadei, or similar. Cheap tools just cause aggravation and lost profits.




What do you use for guides? Miter bar or?

Mitre bar. I'm not sure I'd like using a template or plate against the fence. Seems like a lot of room for error or at least for something to go wrong.

I was walking through the place I bought that 20hp dust collector from and they had a crazy door clamp that made me think of you. It held the door for a short time clamped and squared, then nailed it on the back. Pretty wild. I had never seen anything like that, but this place was a factory for low end box cabinets for Menards. So I'm guessing they did runs of certain door size. Bang out a thousand of whatever size, then go to the next size. I didn't catch a brand. I'm hoping to get rid of my current Unique peg style door clamp and get one of the JLT rotisserie clamps. I like the door to sit clamped for a bit, and I just can't let them sit as long as I'd like with the current setup.

There's always something that needs to be acquired to make the process better!

[J.R. Rutter]

Mitre bar. I'm not sure I'd like using a template or plate against the fence. Seems like a lot of room for error or at least for something to go wrong.

I was walking through the place I bought that 20hp dust collector from and they had a crazy door clamp that made me think of you. It held the door for a short time clamped and squared, then nailed it on the back. Pretty wild. I had never seen anything like that, but this place was a factory for low end box cabinets for Menards. So I'm guessing they did runs of certain door size. Bang out a thousand of whatever size, then go to the next size. I didn't catch a brand. I'm hoping to get rid of my current Unique peg style door clamp and get one of the JLT rotisserie clamps. I like the door to sit clamped for a bit, and I just can't let them sit as long as I'd like with the current setup.

There's always something that needs to be acquired to make the process better!

The reel type door clamp is great. Doucet makes a slightly nicer one than JLT (easier to shift the upper horizontal clamp position). I timed myself yesterday and assembled a 40 door order in 85 minutes. I have also seen RF clamps like the pinner type you saw. Clamps door square and zaps it with 10 seconds of RF at each corner. Brief cool down, then unclamps. Best thing about that is being able to sand same day without worrying about sunken glue joints.

[Jeff Duncan]

Not to sound like a jerk but I'd like to see those 10 second RF glued doors a year down the line. I very rarely see a painted door that doesn't show lines at the joints. There's another pro forum that I take part of where it's pretty much stated as fact that painted doors will always show lines at the joint. I've tried to explain that it's a myth and well made painted doors won't develop lines in normal use. I'm convinced that the poor quality doors accepted as the norm today are a result of pushing them through the process too fast. I build my own doors still as I know I can't get the same quality from a supplier. I've checked on kitchens as old as 10 years and still no cracks. Now granted on clear finishes most people probably won't notice, but on painted, which is the trend at least in my area….you can't miss it.

Sorry for the rant, just saying that quicker doesn't necessarily equal better:(

good luck,
JeffD

[Martin Wasner]

It depends more on the paint than the glue whether or not the joints pop the paint. Also depends on the homeowner, if they're doing a good job of maintaining environmental control, it'll be less of a problem.

Brushing on an oil base? Most likely never crack.
Very thin coat of something really hard like a conversion varnish? It'll crack at the joint in no time almost guaranteed.

[Martin Wasner]

Holy crap! Spent some time setting up the new cutters and getting the copers dialed in today. Wow. That four wing straight cutter is amazing, and both the sticking and cope cuts are so smooth. The profile heads are all 5" major and 4" minor diameters. The straight cutter is 4". I'm running them at 6000 rpm and they just purrr. I'm used to carbide insert heads, but these are light years ahead of the heads I had before.

My plan was to run three cutters at once in the SCMi, but I'm thinking that may be a bit too much weight for the spindle. David Kumm? SCMi guy? Any input? I've got one ring of threads showing above the nut, so it's loaded. No spacers in there either other than the keeper that goes into the groove on the spindle.

The fit was a little looser than I thought. I went through and re-checked the seating of the knives on the sticking head since both copes fit about exactly the same, but I haven't run anymore material through it. I'm thinking it may be because the cutter I was using was the top one in the stack and the spindle is wandering a bit. Hence my apprehension about using all three at once, even though that is what I was doing before with the old cutters, but the old cutters were much smaller in diameter and weighed a whole lot less.

[Ken Grant]

The fit was a little looser than I thought. I went through and re-checked the seating of the knives on the sticking head since both copes fit about exactly the same, but I haven't run anymore material through it. I'm thinking it may be because the cutter I was using was the top one in the stack and the spindle is wandering a bit. Hence my apprehension about using all three at once, even though that is what I was doing before with the old cutters, but the old cutters were much smaller in diameter and weighed a whole lot less.

Yes insert cutters cut nice! I have a couple of Freeborn's insert cope and stick sets. They are one piece, so no shimming between cutters to adjust the fit. It looks like yours are one piece also? I was running them on an older delta HD 3 hp shaper and the fit was okay, but a little looser then I would have liked. Switched to a bigger shaper (the spindle barely wiggles the needle on my dial indicator,) and the fit tightened right up.

I am sure you know all this already, but you might check the runout on your spindle, and that it is 90° to the table (clamp a straight edge in the spindle and spin it 360°). You are going to like building doors more now!

[peter gagliardi]

Holy crap! Spent some time setting up the new cutters and getting the copers dialed in today. Wow. That four wing straight cutter is amazing, and both the sticking and cope cuts are so smooth. The profile heads are all 5" major and 4" minor diameters. The straight cutter is 4". I'm running them at 6000 rpm and they just purrr. I'm used to carbide insert heads, but these are light years ahead of the heads I had before.

My plan was to run three cutters at once in the SCMi, but I'm thinking that may be a bit too much weight for the spindle. David Kumm? SCMi guy? Any input? I've got one ring of threads showing above the nut, so it's loaded. No spacers in there either other than the keeper that goes into the groove on the spindle.

The fit was a little looser than I thought. I went through and re-checked the seating of the knives on the sticking head since both copes fit about exactly the same, but I haven't run anymore material through it. I'm thinking it may be because the cutter I was using was the top one in the stack and the spindle is wandering a bit. Hence my apprehension about using all three at once, even though that is what I was doing before with the old cutters, but the old cutters were much smaller in diameter and weighed a whole lot less.
Martin, I am curious now. I have only run Freeborn Tantung stackable units and raised panel cutters for the last 20 years. The cut when I started was the best I could find, but I am taking more interest in these insert style heads, but am leery of trying because I wonder that the cut quality might not be as good?
The Freeborn sets cut well for a couple jobs, but then you notice a down grade, especially raising panels. I do have a carbide insert type Leiser head, and the cut is what I would describe as only adequate. Problem is, they don't have thru head chip removal geometry and can actually "pack" and not clear the chips well leading to some chip denting.
So, I am looking for other, better options. I had one supplier describe their insert panel raiser as cutting so clean it eliminates sanding- THAT is a very tall statement! Everything that has to be finished needs some sanding.
It appears that you and JR do an extensive amount of this work, while it is just a portion of my shops work, so I "deal" with the issues created, but I am looking for better?

[Jeff Duncan]

It depends more on the paint than the glue whether or not the joints pop the paint. Also depends on the homeowner, if they're doing a good job of maintaining environmental control, it'll be less of a problem.

Brushing on an oil base? Most likely never crack.
Very thin coat of something really hard like a conversion varnish? It'll crack at the joint in no time almost guaranteed.

I spray post catalyzed finishes and no problem with joint lines…..just saying;)

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter, not sure about the head your using, but I use an Innovator head for the rare occasion I do raised panels and it does a pretty nice job of them. Most of the stuff I've used them for has been mdf panels, so I have the carbide blades. The one time I had to do solid cherry panels it worked very nicely though….minimal sanding.

good luck,
JeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

I think joint lines has a lot to do with getting enough squeeze out and cure time. Too little glue and normal wood movement will leave a crack at the surface. Stain also soaks into the end grain if it isn't sealed by the glue and can leave a darker line at the joint. Sand too quickly after glue and the wood still has excess moisture and gives a sunken glue line once it is fully dried out.

RF gluing just speeds up the curing process, which for wood glues is all about moisture dissipation. Heat the glue and the wood, and the moisture leaves faster. Still not a magic bullet, but definitely helps. I have an RF clamp for doing panels and we typically allow them to fully cure overnight. Glue is dry on the outside in <5 minutes and wood is cooled down and can be cut and planed in about 10-15 minutes. We just wait to shape and sand until it has sat around overnight. I've heard of shops that take the doors directly from clamps to widebelt, to the point where they have to worry about glue coating the pressure rollers. An RF door clamp would be a big improvement there. Not saying it matches carefully glued and properly timed joints, though. ;-)

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, I am curious now. I have only run Freeborn Tantung stackable units and raised panel cutters for the last 20 years. The cut when I started was the best I could find, but I am taking more interest in these insert style heads, but am leery of trying because I wonder that the cut quality might not be as good?
The Freeborn sets cut well for a couple jobs, but then you notice a down grade, especially raising panels. I do have a carbide insert type Leiser head, and the cut is what I would describe as only adequate. Problem is, they don't have thru head chip removal geometry and can actually "pack" and not clear the chips well leading to some chip denting.
So, I am looking for other, better options. I had one supplier describe their insert panel raiser as cutting so clean it eliminates sanding- THAT is a very tall statement! Everything that has to be finished needs some sanding.
It appears that you and JR do an extensive amount of this work, while it is just a portion of my shops work, so I "deal" with the issues created, but I am looking for better?



Sharp is sharp. I do think that the insert heads do give a little better quality of cut, but I've seen brazed tooling when new deliver an extremely nice cut too. The main reason for insert heads for me is cost. Sure it's a lot to bite off at first, but after that they are pretty cheap to run. Anything with a profile can only be a sharpened a couple of times before the fit starts to degrade, that doesn't matter what it's on. It's about $80 for three new knives in these heads. You can sharpen them, but I'd only do it once then pitch them. There's other factors too. What is the rake or knife angle, how many rpm are you running, feed rate, and how good is the shaper? I couldn't get a tight joint with my Powermatic shaper and Freeborn insert shaker head. Slowing it down to 7k RPM, and taking it off of a mobile base helped, but it still wasn't very good. Toss that head in the SCMi and it fit perfectly. So the machine has a lot to do with it as well. These new heads, the profile is smooth. They are a larger diameter, so I slowed down the spindle to 6000 rpm, and I might try 4500 rpm to see what happens. I tried taking a picture of some of the sticking I ran yesterday, but it didn't really convey anything. It's actually slippery to the touch, and shiny when you hold it at an angle to the light. I'm very impressed with these heads, but they are new. I had all insert heads before, but these seem to be better all around.

I've got a three wing carbide insert head for panel raising, with a fresh set of knives it leaves an awesome finish. I wouldn't say that it doesn't need sanding, but it does leave an awesome cut behind. My cousin has a 4 wing that I really want to try. End grain depending on the material can either go really well, (like cherry), or really horribly, (like oak). But that's tight closed grain versus an open grain wood.


A lot hinges on how good your carbide guy is. Mine lately has been delivering a really inconsistent service. Sometimes things are brutally sharp, other times is just meh.

[Martin Wasner]

I spray post catalyzed finishes and no problem with joint lines…..just saying;)


My finisher uses a catalyzed finish as well. That's a whole other topic that I don't really know a heck of a lot about. I know there's costs and gains with everything. The harder the finish the less it will be able to deal with wood movement, and that's what causes joints to pop. Something that has some more elasticity to the finish won't be as tough when it comes to wear, but will handle season changes better. Also depends on environment when things were built. I sent a job out a few weeks ago that was built when it was 92º and 80% humidity. I'm guessing that one is going to have more problems than one that is built in the middle of winter when its 65º in the shop and the humidity is less than 30%. A bathroom with a homeowner that never uses the exhaust fan will have more problems than a kitchen where the homeowner keeps humidity and temperature more or less in check.


I don't have too many problems either, but when you have a job with 100 doors, that's 400 cope joints, probably close to 1000 face frame joints. Something will give if it isn't glued well, and isn't sealed well. It's a multifaceted problem.


I can't wait for paint to become tacky. They're profitable, but I'm sick of doing white kitchens. I was also sick of doing Oak kitchens. And Alder.... It all comes and goes, then comes and goes again.

[peter gagliardi]

Jeff, I have the innovator head as well, and I run the steel in it. It does cut well, but can suffer a little with chip buildup as well, depending on what species, and grain.
I only run solid wood panels, I won't take an MDF job. There are plenty of shops that do. We all eat.

Martin, I agree, sharp is sharp, but a LOT of places think if it's put on the grinder, it's sharp. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I personally think it shouldn't take more than a few swipes with 220 around the raise, and 1 or 2 with 320 and it should be finish ready. I know some scoff at anything over 180, or even 150, but I experimented years ago with sanding and finishing to see what I would accept as a decent level of finish for my jobs if I was paying.
I almost exclusively do natural wood only, rarely do I do a paint, or color job, and I all but deny to stain.

As to if my shaper is capable of a good finish, if there is a shaper available in the US that is better than a Martin I don't know about it.
Tooling has come a long way, and my runs have been short enough that I really haven't given it much thought.
But of all the jobs in the shop, I find sanding to be the least enjoyable, and the one with the most need of improvement due to its share of job hours, so I am always chasing a part of the solution, as compared to return on investment.

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter, I envy you. I would love nothing better than to only do natural wood finishes….oh how nice that would be!!! You've obviously earned your rank and should enjoy it!

Martin, I find that I get tired of painted work as well…..until I have to do a stain grade job! Then all I can think about is when will I get back to painted! I think too much of anything gets tiring. I've got about another weeks worth of dark stained rift white oak work before I can start up the next kitchen….a nice white painted kitchen:D

JeffD

[Martin Wasner]

I bet 80% of my work the last three years has been paint grade. Profitable and low waste, which is sweet, but boring.