First time handcut dovetails

[Scott Cenicola]

So after reading a thread and watching a few videos, I'm ready to try my hand. It is definitely a skill I will use in the future, but this is only a hobby.Trying to decide which saw would be better .I would rather only pay the for the Rockler saw, but I'm not opposed to paying for the Veritas to get the right saw the first time.

http://www.rockler.com/ikedame-small-dovetail-saw

http://m.woodcraft.com/Product/153370/STD-Dovetail-Saw-14tpi.aspx?gclid=CjwKEAjwyqOwBRDZuIO4p5SV8w0SJAAQo USw8dd7IIK0UjBXQ2HuBmT-9_rct_Vu-u1idOLz6VdkjhoCRIPw_wcB

So my question is, is either saw better or easier for a first time hand cut dovetail? I know they are very different styles, is one easier to use / learn?

Any advice is appreciated.

[ken hatch]

Scott,

Hard to say, depends on how you learned to saw. I've a few Japanese saws (they cost a bit more than the Rockler saw) and will use them on occasion. Not to cut dovetails, although I did cut a couple of practice tails the other night with one of the pull saws, but for other times when a pull saw would work better. BTW, the practice tails were as butt ugly as you would expect. The straight handle on a Japanese saw is not a natural position for me and I tire quickly when using one. Again it is all in how you learned to saw.

If you learned to saw with a push cut, the Veritas saw is hard to beat and it is a saw you will not outgrow nor need to throw away once it dulls. I have a full till of back saws all (well almost all) in good shape and most cost more than the Veritas. I will still reach for the Veritas about as often as any.

ken

[David Eisenhauer]

The Rockler saw looks like a Japanese or Eastern style saw that will cut on the "pull" stroke. The Veritas saw is a traditional Western style saw and will cut on the "push" stroke. I will not say different strokes for different folks, however many swear that the pull stroke saw is very user friendly. The Veritas saw is well regarded as a good saw that will not break the bank as some of the very nice/well performing boutique saws will. I am not familiar with Eastern saws so I can not comment on that particular brand, but someone else may be able to. I do see that it is 22 tpi (very fine) and will cut a little over an 1" deep, so it will be for smaller dovetail use and may require a more delicate hand to prevent kinking the blade. I do believe the "pull" stoke assists in preventing kinking, but not sure about that. The Veritas saw (as most other Veritas tools) is considered a "good buy" and should provide years of service. Again, many of those that have tried out the Eastern style saws speak very highly of the pull stroke style.

[Archie England]

I have used both, and both work. I tend to kink my dozuki-style blades far more easily than my Disston backsaws. For that reason, I prefer the western style saws--so, it's a matter of preference....

[Allan Speers]

I vastly prefer my japanese saws for this, because it's easier (for me) to keep them aligned at 90 degrees. They also require less effort, so I find it easier to concentrate on the DT instead of the sawing. They do require a light touch though. I suspect that a lot of "western" types try & get turned off by nokogiri because they push too hard. - Just a guess, but I'm probably right.

Also, I have very nice hand-cut saws, which are smoother than any impulse-hardened saw.

[Jim Davis]

While the modern saw makers are doing a very good job of trying to match the Disston saws of yesteryear, that's all they can do: match them. And the Disston dovetail and back saws on the big auction site are usually much cheaper than a new saw from L.N. or Veritas.

Just a something to think about. I will admit that a Disston may need a sharpening, but lots of them are sold freshly sharpened. Saw don't loose their utility just by the passing of years/decades. Those old saws were made and used when skilled craftsmen wouldn't settle for less than the best in saws.

[Jim Koepke]

Scott,

Don't be discouraged if your first dovetails aren't perfect.

It took me awhile to understand what was meant by "saw to the line." It matters not whether you cut pins first or tails first. When the second piece is marked from the first, the line is outside of the waste area. So it is "saw to the line," not through the line.

On your question about saws:

Have you done any hand sawing?

If so, what kind of saw(s) have you used?

The Rockler saw is only 6" long. Kinking of the pull saw blades does not usually occur on the pull stroke. It is when the saw is pushed back and the blade is pinched or the return stroke is slightly off line. I have also bent or broke a tooth by trying to saw through a knot. This usually doesn't happen with a western saw.

As someone else mentioned, most western saws can be sharpened. When my pull saws get a kink or a little dull, the blade has to be replaced.

jtk

[Franklin Ferrier]

I found my first attempts at handcut dovetails suffered more from problems of layout rather than having anything to do with the saw. Cutting to the line is key, so the feel of a saw in hand is crucial but if it's sharp probably any saw will do. The rest is personal preference and you have to try a few different saws before you find your own favourite. It will also change depending on size of dovetail and type of timber used. Without personal experience you basically have to choose some craftsman or author whose work you admire and start by emulating them. It's a lottery, otherwise just buy the cheapest sharp saw you can find while you experiment with the rest of the steps.

On my journey I've found chisels to be a far more significant tool in getting my dovetails going rather than the saw. Don't sweat the saw, the chisel dilemma is going to be far worse.

[Frederick Skelly]

Scott, I have that Veritas saw. I like it a great deal for dovetails. It was easy to learn on as well. I've never used a Japanese DT saw and can't comment on that.
Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

I use both western saws and Japanese saws, they both have advantages. The Japanese saw works on a pull stroke, and so it can have a very thin blade because it's tensioned in the cut.

If you have little experience sawing I would use the western saw, it's much more forgiving. If you do not saw very straight with a Japanese saw you risk damaging the blade (no kinking but snapping), especially if you bind it on the return stroke.

I snapped a handmade Mitsukawa saw some years ago in a crosscut when the board unexpectedly tightened on the blade. The second I went to reset the cut I broke the saw. I'm much wiser now and able to use them without failure, but it was an expensive lesson. Until you are able to finesse handsaws I would not recommend very unforgiving saws.

You can damage a western blade through improper use as well (especially panel saws), but usually in a way that is repairable. That being said hand sawing is a matter of finesse, always! Never 'power through' a cut.

The best way to visualize proper technique is to see your saw as a piston, your forearm as the connecting rod and your bicep as the crank. They must be in proper alignment to work smoothly, always remaining in line.

[Brian Holcombe]

Here is a an example with photos. You can the saw makes little difference so long as it's sharp and used properly. I laid down the square so that you can see the critically important alignment;
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/FC9ABD97-3958-4386-80B1-59DC1383785F_zpsarjvqn9a.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/FC9ABD97-3958-4386-80B1-59DC1383785F_zpsarjvqn9a.jpg.html)

You can see that I'm just slightly off in the photo (it's difficult to hold all of these things and a camera, lol.

Here is the cut;
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/3E1B0B96-9C14-41D7-88A5-11476FE829B5_zpswd3yq7tg.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/3E1B0B96-9C14-41D7-88A5-11476FE829B5_zpswd3yq7tg.jpg.html)

I'm cutting thin spanish cedar here, which is a joke it's so easy, but this is the scrap I had laying around.

Western saw
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/70CF9EAE-E7F8-4BDC-AECC-A29A3DA340A0_zps5jk4rir9.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/70CF9EAE-E7F8-4BDC-AECC-A29A3DA340A0_zps5jk4rir9.jpg.html)

Notice the wrist alignment.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/675F4389-8E09-4F0C-A99C-526C0CB777C1_zpsqysw10qq.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/675F4389-8E09-4F0C-A99C-526C0CB777C1_zpsqysw10qq.jpg.html)

[Mike Brady]

Those cuts in your bench vise look nice and square. ;)

[Brian Holcombe]

Hah, thanks Mike. :p

Sometimes the big ripper leaves 'patina', hehe.

[Curt Putnam]

The Rockler saw is an inexpensive Japanese style saw. It's probably also filed as crosscut which means it will be slower than a rip filed saw. Impulse hardened saws like this cannot be resharpened. The Veritas saw cuts as well as the custom made saws and can be resharpened. However, the handle is small for my hand. The lower horn hits at the edge of my palm. IMO, you cannot go wrong with it.

The real issue is whether you are more comfortable pushing or pulling. For me, the answer is pushing although I suspect that with sufficient practice I could become comfortable with pulling.

[Scott Cenicola]

Thanks to everyone for such great feedback (and the pics Brian!). I have very little experience with hand saws as I never use them. I thought the Veritas would be a slam dunk when I posted this, but some good points are made for the Dozuki as well. I am still leaning toward the Veritas, but appreciate everyone's feedback. Thanks, and keep it coming .

[Simon MacGowen]

Without personal experience you basically have to choose some craftsman or author whose work you admire and start by emulating them. It's a lottery, otherwise just buy the cheapest sharp saw you can find while you experiment with the rest of the steps.

On my journey I've found chisels to be a far more significant tool in getting my dovetails going rather than the saw. Don't sweat the saw, the chisel dilemma is going to be far worse.


just buy the cheapest sharp saw you can find while you experiment with the rest of the steps.

That sure is one way to do it, but one that I would strongly advise against. Get the best saw you can afford and where possible get someone who has had reasonably good experience in dovetails to show you the steps or take a class. That is the most effective way of learning. Yes, the Veritas dovetail saw is more than good enough (get the 14tpi rip if you can't afford to have the cross cut as well).

In dovetail work, the saws are more important than the chisels (cheap chisels are ok as long as they are sharp). If you saw well, you don't need much chisel work, but not the other way round. Your sawing skill is most critical and far more important than your chiseling techniques. Don't start with the premise that you can cover your poor sawing skills with a chisel -- that would be painfully ineffective, time-wasting and unproductive. Better start on the right foot and get your sawing skills up to speed first.

In fact, my recommendation is that don't even try dovetailing until you've acquired the basic sawing skills -- cutting plumb and square, at the very least. Unless frustrations don't bother you and you have a fire wood bin to fill.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks to everyone for such great feedback (and the pics Brian!). I have very littlee experience with hand saws as I never use them. I thoughtt he Veritas would be a slam dunk when I posted this, but some good points are made for the Dozuki as all. I am still learning toward the Veritas, but appreciate everyone's feedback. Thanks,and keep it coming .

Go ahead with the Veritas dovetail saw, but if you've never used a backsaw at all, dovetails should not be the first joint to try, until you've developed the basic sawing skills, as I've pointed out in my other post. Practice and good luck,

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

Get the best saw you can afford and where possible get someone who has had reasonably good experience in dovetails to show you the steps or take a class. That is the most effective way of learning. Yes, the Veritas dovetail saw is more than good enough (get the 14tpi rip if you can't afford to have the cross cut as well).

In dovetail work, the saws are more important than the chisels (cheap chisels are ok as long as they are sharp). If you saw well, you don't need much chisel work, but not the other way round. Your sawing skill is most critical and far more important than your chiseling techniques. Don't start with the premise that you can cover your poor sawing skills with a chisel -- that would be painfully ineffective, time-wasting and unproductive. Better start on the right foot and get your sawing skills up to speed first.

In fact, my recommendation is that don't even try dovetailing until you've acquired the basic sawing skills -- cutting plumb and square, at the very least. Unless frustrations don't bother you and you have a fire wood bin to fill.

Simon

As my sawing has improved there is a lot less chisel work on my dovetails.

A lot of my work would have never been done if getting my skills up to speed was pursued instead of doing the projects that improved my skills over the years they were done.

If one can not learn from their own errors and frustrations, they will not learn much of anything.

What is that old saying? "The one who makes no mistakes likely doesn't make anything else."

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

What is that old saying? "The one who makes no mistakes likely doesn't make anything else."

jtk

That wasn't what I wrote. I didn't ask the OP to avoid making mistakes; I was speaking from someone who has taught many how to cut dovetails including those who had never held a saw before. Your way of learning may work for you, but as a teacher, I would not advise my students to learn as difficult as a dovetail joint the way you did. That's how I teach and how I advise people who are interested in cutting dovetails: learning the basic sawing skills first, then the layout techniques, etc. before worrying about what sawing to the line means.

Yes, some can cut anything without a helping hand from anyone. They are the minority. I am offering my advice based on my years of teaching experience and observations and of course, it is not the only way to do things. But my advice is free and anyone can take it or ignore it.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

That wasn't what I wrote. I didn't ask the OP to avoid making mistakes; I was speaking from someone who has taught many how to cut dovetails including those who had never held a saw before. Your way of learning may work for you, but as a teacher, I would not advise my students to learn as difficult as a dovetail joint the way you did. That's how I teach and how I advise people who are interested in cutting dovetails: learning the basic sawing skills first, then the layout techniques, etc. before worrying about what sawing to the line means.

Yes, some can cut anything without a helping hand from anyone. They are the minority. I am offering my advice based on my years of teaching experience and observations and of course, it is not the only way to do things. But my advice is free and anyone can take it or ignore it.

Simon

Simon, I was not trying to upset you or belittle your advise. Some of us do not have a mentor or even a class we can take close at hand.

You did not write,
What is that old saying? "The one who makes no mistakes likely doesn't make anything else." It is what I wrote. You did write:


Better start on the right foot and get your sawing skills up to speed first.

In fact, my recommendation is that don't even try dovetailing until you've acquired the basic sawing skills -- cutting plumb and square, at the very least. Unless frustrations don't bother you and you have a fire wood bin to fill.

There are still a lot of ill fitting dovetails on boxes in my shop and home. Many of my practice dovetails did end up in the fire wood box, but never a bin full. The outcome of that is now my new projects have respectable dovetails. There is a drawer in my shop that was built with dovetails when it was too cold to use glue. My intention was to glue it up when spring arrived. It has been almost two years now and it still hasn't needed to be glued. Now my intention is to see how long it can hold up without glue.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211707-Too-Cold-in-Shop-for-Gluing

And I will be the first to say my dovetails are not as good as most people post about here. But they work. Instead of waiting for the skill level to come to me, the skill came to me by cutting dovetails and then cutting them again.

A great way to learn dovetails for a beginner is to buy a piece of inexpensive wood from the BORG and spend some time practicing dovetails and learning from the experience.

Cutting pins is a good practice to learn to cut plumb. Cutting tails is good practice to learn to cut square. One just has to calibrate their eye, saw and line to adjust for loose or tight fits.

Jump in with both feet and just do it!

jtk

[Graham Haydon]

Hi Scott

Both saws would be fine for dovetailing. I've used a dozuki and western saws and have no issue swapping between the two. Practice is going to be more important than which of those two saws is best. Also, if you don't like your choice you can always sell it.

[Scott Cenicola]

just buy the cheapest sharp saw you can find while you experiment with the rest of the steps.

That sure is one way to do it, but one that I would strongly advise against. Get the best saw you can afford

Simon

Good catch Simon. I almost took that advice, as I am kind of a cheapskate at heart. I am trying to live by the "cry once" rule and always try to by the best tool I can afford. Thanks for reassuring the correct path.

I am leaning toward Jim's approach and jumping right in. I'm lucky to get 5-6 hours a week in the shop and I can be pretty stubborn, l want to do what I want to do .I appreciate the warning, and I'm sure there will be some frustration but the learning is fun. Don't get much use for firewood in Tampa, so I guess I'll just cut off the ends and saw until my hands hurt lol.

Thanks again to all, always great advice and good to get opinions of the more experienced .

[Scott Cenicola]

Hi Scott

Both saws would be fine for dovetailing. I've used a dozuki and western saws and have no issue swapping between the two. Practice is going to be more important than which of those two saws is best. Also, if you don't like your choice you can always sell it.

I think you're right, practice will be key. Another advantage to the Veritas is its resale. I'm thinking based on what I read I would need a little more finesse for the dozuki. Another vote for the Veritas, finesse is not my strong point.

[Tom M King]

Brian, those pictures show exactly why my method of maintaining fleam angle when sharpening a saw uses a piece of thin plywood with a bunch of Sharpie lines drawn on it of the fleam angle behind the saw, but in the field of view with the file in it. You can see small variations out of proper alignment without even concentrating on it.

[Brian Holcombe]

It can be incredibly handy, it's surprising how accurate your eye can become with a minor aide.

i often use the side of my bench as a visual gauge as well, especially when making quick cross cuts.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

My first saw was a "gents" saw similar to this one (might have been this one, bought it at woodcraft)

http://www.amazon.com/Crown-187-8-Inch-203-mm-Gents/dp/B001V9KOFA

I had lots of trouble with the saw. I had difficulty cutting perpendicular (and to the line).

My next saw was a Lie Nielson dovetail saw, and things improved a lot. Not sure if it is because it is just a better saw or if it is because I could clearly look at the handle and know the angle of the blade. Learn to hold it a specific way and your orientation is correct. With the gent saw (which has a handle similar to the pull saws), just grasping the handle may not provide orientation information.

My only point in all this is that if it is possible, try a few saw types before you purchase one.

[Daniel Rode]

My first saw was a "gents" saw similar to this one (might have been this one, bought it at woodcraft)

I had the same experience with the same saw. I thought the problem was ME. Much later on, I was able to tune it to cut straight by stoning the sides to even out the set.

[Brian Holcombe]

Scott, I'm cutting dovetails currently for my cabinet build, I put together some extra detail on the shots in case you or anyone else would like a detailed walk-through ( semi walk through). There is tons and tons of stuff out there on cutting dovetails, but a little more can't hurt!

[Scott Cenicola]

Thanks Brian. I went through your photobucket, you do some very nice work.

I ordered my marking wheel and knife from Rockler the other day. I live about 45 minutes from Woodcraft, so I'm gonna run out and pick up the saw one day next week. Going out of town next weekend, so my first dovetails are a few weeks away. Been checking out different tutorials on the web. Can't wait to get started. Thanks again for everyone's advice. I'll post some pics .

[Brian Holcombe]

My pleasure! Thanks for the kind words!

[Mike Holbrook]

There are some good suggestions here. I have DVDs done by Frank Klausz "Dovetail a Drawer" and one by Jim Kingshot "Dovetails" both are good offering information not only on the tools themselves but their "care & feeding".

I guess I am the guy to bring up the options that have not been mentioned again. Not to try to talk the OP into more expensive or different tools, but just to make him aware of the options. Silky is a company usually associated more with pruning saws but they make some very nice wood working saws too that may have an advantage or two for a new user. I have their Wood Boy, backed, fine toothed folding saw which is sort of a Japanese saw that folds. The Silky saws have very nice handles and the blades are replaceable. Japanese tooth designs, particularly Silky's, are not easy to sharpen by hand. The western dovetail saws can of course be sharpened fairly easily, but there are some skills and tools involved that may add to a new users list of things to learn.

There are some nice western saw kits available, from companies like Tools for Working Wood (TFWW) that might be a nice educational project. While I am on the TFWW subject they also offer a small bowsaw kit. Although small bowsaws are not the most popular tool for this work they can get into corners and make turns that gents, Japanese and western saws may not be able to. TFWW also offers a popular fret saw and a coping saw that are used by some to cut dovetails. TFWW offers Japanese, western, gents, kits, bowsaws, western dovetail saws....It might be a good place for the OP to see good workable versions of most of the saws often used for this work. TFWW also offers pretty good information on these various saws.

Many of the Japanese type saws have hardened teeth designed to be replaced vs sharpened. Although, there are very nice Japanese saws made to be sharpened too. The hardened Japanese teeth typically go longer before needing to be sharpened/replaced. Most quality western saws I am aware of use softer steel and are designed more with the idea of the owner sharpening the teeth. As I think someone mentioned above, a western saw may need to be tuned to cut straight, very important in a dovetail saw. This is a skill set a new user might not possess. Bowsaws, fret saws and coping saws generally have a wide selection of relatively cheap saw blades in lots of different tooth patterns that can be easily replaced or swapped out. I mention this as a person who does not have multiple saw tills yet ;-), may find interchangeable blades an attractive feature.

I personally started with Silky Japanese type saws as I had experience using them for arborist/landscaping activities and the harder,sharper, well tuned teeth and replaceable blades were an attractive feature for me. If I had it to do over though, knowing what I know now, I might start with a western type saw or a small bowsaw. I just think it is valid for the OP to understand there may be skill sets he would need to learn to be successful with western saws, particularlyly sharpening and tuning. If I were to make an actual suggestion to the OP it would be to check out the various saws at TFWW first and learn a little about the options and which style saw might appeal to him. One of the kits might be a good option, as it might teach more about the tool and caring for it on the front end. TFWW will also sharpen a kit saw blade for the buyer. TFWW does an excellent job of sharpening & tuning saw blades. TFWW is one of a very few companies I feel could/would deliver a new user a saw blade capable of cutting nice small dovetails out of the box.

Eventually our OP will probably end up learning about sharpening/tuning and caring for his dovetail saw just like the rest of us. My suggestion is that he be aware not only of what "tuned" saw might be "best" for the job but what he may need to learn about the care and feeding of these particular tools on the front end of the experience.