Anyone using high bay LED lighting?

[Jim Mackell]

Our main work area has suspended lights about 25 feet above floor level. Old fashioned teardrop style fixtures. Shop roof is being redone and we're speculating about newer LED technology. Anyone using big LED light fixtures in a large shop or warehouse style area? What type of fixture and what - if anything - did you see in term of energy savings?

Thanks in advance!

[Mike Heidrick]

I looked at them. Very very expensive, even the Chinese ones. I choose t5ho 6 bulbs at $100 ea with lamps. Amazing how bright they are. Not sure I could recoup the difference in elec and by the time i did i would wan t a diff technology anyway. I will change out my metal halides fot t5ho prob next spring.

[Jim Rollyson]

Not a high bay (14' at the edge, peak a bit higher) but here are the Feit lights from Costco installed in my barn as of last week. Pretty bright. A bit more $$$ but with a 45,000 hour life and lower power consumption I'm happy I won't be changing a bulb for a very long time.

http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp73/glock21sf08/Barn%20at%20night_zpsqsolcst4.jpeg (http://s399.photobucket.com/user/glock21sf08/media/Barn%20at%20night_zpsqsolcst4.jpeg.html)

[Greg R Bradley]

There is various efficiency within each technology but in general:
High Pressure Sodium and Metal Halide is best. That is what you would use in typical high bay lighting and why they use that for streetlights.
Well designed Linear Fluorescent are second but do go downhill with age.
LED is third.
Compact Fluorescent and cheap Linear are fourth.

I looked at replacing old high bay (35') with alternatives and nothing made sense. LED is trendy and the popular idea is it is efficient.

[Steve Peterson]

There is various efficiency within each technology but in general:
High Pressure Sodium and Metal Halide is best. That is what you would use in typical high bay lighting and why they use that for streetlights.
Well designed Linear Fluorescent are second but do go downhill with age.
LED is third.
Compact Fluorescent and cheap Linear are fourth.

I looked at replacing old high bay (35') with alternatives and nothing made sense. LED is trendy and the popular idea is it is efficient.

One of the towns near me recently replaced all their high pressure sodium street lights with LEDs. They claimed a cost savings, but most of that was due to the reduced frequency of changing the bulbs. The up-front cost was huge.

Steve

[David Helm]

It would likely be very expensive, but you could go the route the Seattle Mariners did at Safeco Field. The entire stadium lights are LEDs. I think they spent a number of millions of dollars.

[Mike Heidrick]

A lot depends if you are storing stuff in the shop above or doing work in there.

Jacks formula = # fixtures = (desired fc) x (shop area) x (2) / (lumens per lamp) x (# lamps per fixture)

I am going with the 50% lumen striking the surface and 100 footcandle per sq/ft recommendation from Jack.

His example using T8s in 1500sq/ft:
= (100 fc) x (1500 sq. ft.) x (2) / (2800 lumens) x (4) = 27 fixtures if doing T8s in 1500sq ft.

Using the above Sams club LED lights (4200lumen for the whole light):
100X1500X2/4200 = ~71 of those light fixtures from Sams club to light the same area - $2840 in $40 lights and that is 1500sqft.


For 2560sqft I need 17 6-bulb T5HO fixtures.
I am running 8 T5HO 6-bulb fixtures and 16 320watt metal halide fixtures. Cost was $1050 with lamps for both kinds of lights as the metal halides were used. $800 was the cost for eight new T5HO fixtures and and lamps.

[Matt Neil]

Just finished putting up a calf barn. Rafters are 14' high and barn is 60' x 192'. I have two rows of 7 LED fixtures spaced apart. Each fixture is round and 73 watts. Building is new so I haven't gotten a bill yet on the fixtures and I don't remember what the guesstimate was on their price. Plenty bright for me. Much brighter than a barn. I used Jack's lighting formula for my wood working shop and it is significantly brighter than my barn. I love the instant on and instant bright feature and am glad I don't need to turn them on and wait for them to actually get bright. My particular fixtures are photovoltaic and it they ran 12 hours a day every day it would run just under $600 annually. One oddity I noticed was that when I stand in between two fixtures (so I'm standing down the center of the barn somewhere and have a fixture about 15' to my left and one 15' to my right) I can see my shadow in both directions. Can't figure out how the light on my left can be bright enough to make a shadow to my right that the fixture on the right doesn't brighten enough not to notice. And vice versa at the same time.

[Ole Anderson]

There is various efficiency within each technology but in general:
High Pressure Sodium and Metal Halide is best. That is what you would use in typical high bay lighting and why they use that for streetlights.
Well designed Linear Fluorescent are second but do go downhill with age.
LED is third.
Compact Fluorescent and cheap Linear are fourth.

I looked at replacing old high bay (35') with alternatives and nothing made sense. LED is trendy and the popular idea is it is efficient.

I agree that HPS and MH were the main choices for years in high bay, streetlight and parking lot lights with the HPS being most efficient and cost effective. You can still get Mercury Vapor bulbs, but they have fallen off in use for at least 20 years now, and the CRI is terrible, as is HPS. You don't often see high bay HPS because the color is too warm. Still see lots of MH in high bay use. I wrote standards for a local township requiring HPS parking lot lights over MH due to efficiency, life and a much better ability to hold lighting levels over time as compared to MH. I have seen old MH fixtures where the light had fallen off so badly over time that they were nearly worthless. Exceptions were allowed where CRI was important such as auto dealerships.

I disagree with putting LED third and calling it trendy. CFL's were trendy and served as a stopgap alternative until LED's were perfected and production costs plummeted. The LED shop lights from HD claim significantly improved efficiency over traditional fluorescent lights and reviews from users agree. That has been my experience with most LED lights when comparing lumens at the work surface per watt used. I see traditional T12 and T8 fluorescents along with the CFL's eventually being replaced with LED's (and sooner than later) because of the longer life, the mercury issue and starting temperature issues as prices continue to fall. In our area, even the cash strapped City of Detroit, which is on a huge streetlight replacement campaign, is going with LED's. I don't see any public street lights going up that aren't LED's. Even our subdivision entrance has some pretty nice decorative overhead LED lights at the entrance. That is not to say that HPS and MH's won't continue to be used where initial price is driving the decision in private areas.

Personally, I will be replacing my failing T12 and T8's with the $40 LED 4' shop lights which are now quite available at most of the big box stores. Now if they would start producing cost effective replacements for traditional 100-200 watt bulbs and three way reading lights.

[Red OLeary]

I don't really have the inside track on all the numbers on cost/brand etc. but in one of the hangars at my shop the company took out all the old lights (metal halide??) and installed LEDs. Now during the installation process we had a mixture of both and I will say it was noticeably brighter under the LEDs. I'm guessing we have at least 35' ceiling in there and the new lights are probably 4' long and maybe 2' wide with two strips of LEDs either side of center. I can't imagine how much the company spent on these but you can bet it was a small fortune, like in the tens of thousands ... now for the bad news, since the day they went up I don't think we've ever had 100% of the lights working at once, there are constantly banks of lights out on these new LEDs. I overheard a guy in a suit talking with one of our facilities guys one day while looking up at the ceiling that "we need to figure this out" presumable referring to all the inop lights. Granted that part is purely speculation, but I know for a fact that a lot of those lights are not working on any given day. I will say it's not particularly dim in the hangar as a result of the lights out but if I had spent that money on lights I'd want them working.

[Rollie Meyers]

When cord and plug connecting lighting fixtures in a shop such as a garage in a residential setting they will require GFCI protection under the 2011 and 2014 NEC. Did not check further back, there are very few exceptions & overhead receptacles is not one of them.

[Chris Parks]

Of the LED highbays I have seen 100% have failed due to the electronics that drive the LED. They were all made in China if that has any significance as were our house LED's some of which have had the same issue. I like the light and the simplicity of the LED but the QC on a lot of them is poor to say the least.

[Bryan Rocker]

I would recommend giving Big Ass Fans a look, they have some high bay LEDs that have motion sensors and 50K lumens, yes they are more than the ones at Costco. I am considering them when I build my shop.....

[Stephen Wiehe]

I have Big Ass Fan's LED lights in my shop. I replaced Mercury Vapor fixtures. Much better light and doesn't require time to warm up. I have had them for about a year and have had no problems with them. I highly recommend them.

Steve

[Ole Anderson]

Nice looking lights but they have price tags that match their name.

[Ross Canant]

I have 30x40' shop with 12' sidewalls and 22' to the peak. I did it all with Costco Feit LED shop lights. Mine are at about 15' and 20' on the high part, 8 fixtures covering a 20x30 area. The other side has a 20x30' loft set at 10' off the floor. Under it I have 6 fixtures covering 20x30'. Both areas are as bright as I want, near daylight with no real shadows. The ceiling and walls are white, floor is concrete unfinished. I have had zero failures with these fixtures. Looking at Amazon, they have a good record there too. The lights are $35.99 at Costco.

[Greg R Bradley]

If you have an actual need for High Bay Lighting, which is the subject of this thread, please investigate those Feit lights from Costco carefully before wasting money on them.

I guess as good place to start would be with the actual definition of high bay lighting. EVERY legitimate light manufacturer has information on their site about how to spec your lighting. Of course, legitimate does not include sleazy companies like Feit. I'm not going to say everything at Costco is suspect but it is best to start there until proven otherwise.

Just think about these lights being 3800 lumens and a SINGLE BULB old style T-12 being 4400 lumens and wonder about how many of these you would have to buy, wire in, and hope they keep working to get any reasonable amount of light. The lights over my workbenches at my company are dual T-12 VHO, which are 30,000 lumens for the fixture. Even the downgraded "energy saver" VHOs are 10,000 lumens per bulb, which means 20,000 lumens over a workbench. That's in addition to a general work area being illuminated at 50-100 lumens per square foot.

Now if you are starting with nothing and want a single light over your workbench, then these could make some sense.

LED lights tend to be a harsh single point of light and a nasty range of color, which makes you think they are bright because they are irritating but don't actually let you get much work done. They are getting better but the cheap ones are still pretty horrible.

[Ole Anderson]

Well now, there are two different reviews, only one of which claimed to actually USE the Feit branded LED lights in a high bay situation. Buy the way, LED's come in a variety of temperatures, make sure you get what you want and be sure to match color temperatures when adding on or replacing fixtures. This goes for all styles of lighting. LED's are now the standard for new theatrical lighting, where color rules. Of course they mix r b g w colors.

Again I will remind you that fluorescents use the same technology (phosphor) that your CRT television used to use. Anybody buying those anymore?

[Mike Heidrick]

Those Costco and Sams club LED lights are NOT high bay LOL. High Bay is above 20'-40'. A 16' ceiling height is Low bay. Low bay lights are for ceilings 15'-20'. NO high or low bay light has a little pull string switch LOL.

All of the pics people show of using them tall shops are dim looking and have a lot of shadows even in the picture. Prob just fine for seeing where you store your boat. I believe folks like them because they have never owned true correct lighting in that environment. They are buying them because they are cheap and they see the letters LED and think PERFECT.

When Costco and Sams says they are perfect for garages and utility rooms it is because they ARE dim and they are not expecting you to need bright light like you would in your house.

Any remotely comparable LED lights for low or high bay are going to cost you many hundreds of dollars and maybe more.

Thanks for the chuckle about high bay LED lights for $40. Had this picture of pull string on my lights at 16'.

[Greg R Bradley]

I just updated the lighting in one building yesterday. It is 30' wide and 70' deep. We've been in it for 35 years. It was built when the standard shop lighting was 8' long 2 bulb T-12 fixtures in two rows hanging at 10-12' above the floor. No reflectors, just two F96/T12 75w bulbs. We raised the lights to 17' for clearance with the highest shelves at 14'.

About a two years ago, I redid one row of the high lamps. I cleaned the white paint above the bulbs, replaced the one ballast that had failed in that row, and installed good T-12 75w bulbs from a commercial lighting supplier.

The second row had lots of stuff underneath so we kept putting it off. One ballast had failed and a thunderstorm took out three more. Employee spent 20 hours removing all the stuff below that row and I was committed to finishing that before the end of the workday. I assumed the logical thing to do was replace all 8 ballasts and install 8' T-8s in that row but I wanted to investigate the option of converting to LED due to it being a HUGE pain to clear access under that row again.

Quality T-8 ballasts and bright T-8 bulbs weren't in stock in large enough quantity to finish the job. 59w T-8 with cheap phosphors weren't going to be good enough and we would have to move all that stuff to swap out bulbs when they came in next week.

I bought a case of 8' 38w 3800 lumen 5000K LED T-12/T-8 replacements that are wired directly. Since the LED shine down directly, I was hoping they would be as bright as the T-12 with 4400 lumens in a fixture without a reflector.

Compared to the row of T-12 next to them, they are marginal at best. They seem brighter when you look at them because the light is coming out of a smaller strip of LEDs. They glare in your eyes when you are at either end of the row and walk down the row. Since I wear glasses, I would have to wear a ball cap if I worked in there all day. If they were in a smaller building that would be much better. At 17' high they would not glare in your eyes in a 40' long building with 4 8' fixtures in a 32' long strip.

Ability to work on items directly below them is clearly not as good. We are saving electricity so we could add more lights and still be ahead compared to the T-12s. Maybe ahead of converting to T-8s but probably only because of the very inconvenient access.

[roger wiegand]

CRI of the Big Ass LEDs is only 70, perhaps acceptable in a warehouse but not something I'd want to live with or judge color by. For that kind of money they should be ashamed of themselves.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have been converting my shop lights over the last few months to 4' LED fixtures from Home Depot. Each one cost 99.99 plus tax.

I love the light they throw. It is much nicer than the light from my old and existing T8 fixtures.

Anyway my point is the $99.99 fixtures add up quick. They make the Big Ass Led fixtures seem like a deal. Yeah thats crazy but its true. If i had the ceiling hight in my shop to cast the light produced from the Big Ass Led light i would surely go with them.

[Greg R Bradley]

CRI of the Big Ass LEDs is only 70, perhaps acceptable in a warehouse but not something I'd want to live with or judge color by. For that kind of money they should be ashamed of themselves.
That is mostly a limitation of LED warehouse lighting. The lamp manufacturers have to buy the actual LEDs that have those limitations.
There are serious limitations to the technology. Some manufacturers are working around these limitations for house lighting.
Cree LW do decently and GE Reveal series have a CRI around 90. These are only available to replace incandescent fixtures and other low wattage home interior lamps. You also pay a big hit in lumens/watt ratings losing more than a third of your light. Lumens/watt in the 50s.
Roger brings up info about color judging. At this point there aren't any industrial LED fixtures that will work decently.
In one furniture manufacturer, I'm using T-8 Octron XPS lamps in general work area to get 97 lumens/watt for the lamp which gives me 90-92 lumens/watt for the entire fixture. This also gives me 42,000 hour life at 94% of original light. 85 CRI.
In the finishing and paint booth areas I'm using Octron Vivid or Octron 950 that have 90+ CRI but only have 77 lumens/watt and 27,000 hour life.
There are 85,000 hour T-8 lamps for general use but they are also around 75 lumens/watt.

There are advantages and disadvantages to every technology. I think it is best to choose what works best for your application and not choose a product and then try to force it into your application. First you have to define your application.

[Ole Anderson]

That is mostly a limitation of LED warehouse lighting. The lamp manufacturers have to buy the actual LEDs that have those limitations.
There are serious limitations to the technology. Some manufacturers are working around these limitations for house lighting.
Cree LW do decently and GE Reveal series have a CRI around 90. These are only available to replace incandescent fixtures and other low wattage home interior lamps. You also pay a big hit in lumens/watt ratings losing more than a third of your light. Lumens/watt in the 50s.
Roger brings up info about color judging. At this point there aren't any industrial LED fixtures that will work decently.
In one furniture manufacturer, I'm using T-8 Octron XPS lamps in general work area to get 97 lumens/watt for the lamp which gives me 90-92 lumens/watt for the entire fixture. This also gives me 42,000 hour life at 94% of original light. 85 CRI.
In the finishing and paint booth areas I'm using Octron Vivid or Octron 950 that have 90+ CRI but only have 77 lumens/watt and 27,000 hour life.
There are 85,000 hour T-8 lamps for general use but they are also around 75 lumens/watt.

There are advantages and disadvantages to every technology. I think it is best to choose what works best for your application and not choose a product and then try to force it into your application. First you have to define your application.

Good information, gives me a slightly different perspective on fluorescents. Thanks. I thought those Sylvania Octron bulbs would be super expensive, not so, just not likely available at your big box store two at a time.