Is it Neander sacrilege to cut mortises by machine?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi folks,
Yesterday, I started a small chair project that uses wood that's 1 1/2" square as it's basic component. I decided to go with M&T joinery for strength and durability - tenons that are 1/2" thick. But I don't have a 1/2" mortise chisel. So, for the first time, I drilled out most of the waste and squared things up with a bench chisel.

Here's the rub. I found that I LIKED doing it this way. Minimal setup required - mark a centerline in the mortise, chuck a 7/16" bradpoint bit in the drill press - and I got nice square mortises, quickly.

I'm a hybrid woodworker, rather than a full up Neander. I like handtools because I've learned that I can do so much stuff more quickly than with my machines - especially if it's only a few parts at a time. (I love using my planes, chisels and backsaws to do better/finer work and I get better with them every day.) But I can't see any real advantage to cutting mortises manually. I mean, they are always the same - no odd angles, no fine adjustments (I do those on the tenon), etc.

I definitely feel that cutting a few tenons by hand is better - faster than setup, etc and easier to tune. But I'm not seeing an equivalent example for Mortises. Am I missing something important, beyond the satisfaction of mastering another tool?

I'd appreciate some feedback.

Thanks.
Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

You may find it's not always possible to setup for the cut that you want to make, so it's a great skill to have. That being said, if you like this method you can always use a brace/bit to hollow out the mortises in odd situations.

[Jim Koepke]

Is it Neander sacriledge to cut mortises by machine?

To me, the neanderthal moniker is more a state of mind towards getting it done with the tools on hand than it is about hand tool only work.

My lumber comes mostly cut by machines. At times my froe or other tools are used to split out some pieces from downed trees. They still might get the power treatment from a chainsaw or bandsaw.

Most of the time my tenon work is done with a chisel. For some reason it seems faster than setting up the drill press and drilling out most of the waste.

There is a wide assortment of people and styles within this forum. Some take a minimalist approach working with as small of a tool selection as is possible for them. Some may have a small shop or any other reason for keeping it simple. Some of us go to the far end and accumulate every hand tool that comes our way. Some even go for making their own human powered tools or purchasing old human powered machines.

There is more than one way to be a neander.

jtk

[Paul Sidener]

To each their own. Use what you have and choose to use. I do agree with Brian, it's still a good skill to have. That doesn't mean you have to do it that way.

[Christopher Charles]

I prefer to do most by hand as it is easier for just a few, but have a drill press primarily for wasting mortices (I still square them by hand). As Jim says, not strict line in the sand; mostly about a mindset that allows a different approach.

C

[lowell holmes]

I cut mortises both ways, machine and hand. Most of the time chisels and mallet seem best.

As far as not having a 1/2" mortise chisel, a firmer or a blue chip chisel will do just fine. I didn't buy mortise chisels for about 7 years.

I learned to chop mortises at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas. It was a school that was directed by Paul Sellers.
Each bench was equipped with blue chip chisels and that's what we used.

I have mortise chisels, Narex, Lie Nielsen, and Ray Iles. I often use a 1" bevel edge chisel for the through mortice on the arm for the through tenon on the front legs. The mortises on the chair I made for my Great Grandaughter to be rocked in were made with a 1" bevel edged chisel ground down to 15/16" because of a mistake I made. There was not room for the full 1" mortise.

Why don't you try some practice mortises with the chisels you have. You can answer your question yourself. You will be glad to have both skills, you probably already do.

[Prashun Patel]

Why would anyone judge your method? If it is efficient for u, produces good results and makes you feel joy doing it, what else is there?

people seem to think neanders are more judgy than they really are. (Sharpening methods notwithstanding)

Fwiw I am hybrid like you. I prefer a pin router for wasting. Although the drill press has its appeal for control reasons.

[Gary Herrmann]

Are you a neander re-enactor? Probably not. I doubt any of us are. There are some very talented hand tool workers on this forum (Hi George!).

Not everything has to be a journey on each project. Sometimes you just want something you made to sit on. Mortiser away.

Btw, I own one too. Floor model Jet which I got for $99, but that's another story for a different forum...

[Derek Cohen]

For what it is worth, a drill press makes lousy mortices:

If you are looking at long, vertical sided mortices, then first drilling out the waste leaves one to square up the sides with a chisel. It is easier using a mortice chisel in the first place.

If you want a round mortice, nothing beats an auger bit in a brace for rapid waste removal. I was reminded of this when adding a few extra hold down holes to my 3 1/2" thick oak bench top last week. The advantage of the bit-and-brace is that angles are unlimited, and as quick to achieve as it takes to set up a couple of visual guides.

The best machine method is a router with an upcut bit. Set up with the appropriate guides and dust control, this is quick and extremely accurate, albeit noisy.

For some it is about the journey and not the destination, and vice versa. For others it is about confidence in skills. If the latter, take the challenge and push yourself to take the risk. You will come out stronger. It is only wood! Still , there is no "right" answer. There will always be those who take "schools" to extremes and preach one method, and there are others who seek to find the best in all systems, develop as many skills as possible, and then use what is appropriate at the time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

The traditional method is to make tenons 5/16 or 3/8 inches thick. This is what we find on chairs and stools from the 17th and 18th centuries that have stood up for 300 years and more. For a chair, legs and posts are often larger than 1 1/2 but the horizontal members are often 7/8 thick.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the encouragement, advice and acceptance of my different approach. Maybe I'll keep on trying some of both - drill press and fully manual. I have to square the mortises either way, and that's still going to require some care and skill, even with the drill press hogging out the waste. And I do have a 1/2" Marples - seems a shame not to give that a whirl after Lowell's story.

Thanks again!
Fred

[Brian Hale]

The end justifies the means

[Chris Hachet]

I swing both ways on this issue, actually. I have a drill press, a hollow chisel morticer, and a nice selection of chisels. Mostly I build things for myself, so I use whatever I feel like when I am in the garage, that is my time.

Regards,

Chris

[Mike Henderson]

The end justifies the means

That's my philosophy. I sometime cut the tails of "hand cut" dovetails with a bandsaw.

Mike

[Joshua Hancock]

Not to take away the esteemed comments above but, brother, make sawdust in whatever way makes you happy (you did say you LIKED it). No one is gonna judge, its all about the Furniture. I highly doubt anyone is gonna say " Wow, thats beautiful....wait do i sense a drill press was used .........DESTROY THAT ABOMINATION WITH FIRE!!!!!". You were working, didnt have a fancy schmancy 1/2 inch mortise chisel, but a had a nice shiny drill press.....made it happen.

[Frederick Skelly]

Not to take away the esteemed comments above but, brother, make sawdust in whatever way makes you happy (you did say you LIKED it). No one is gonna judge, its all about the Furniture. I highly doubt anyone is gonna say " Wow, thats beautiful....wait do i sense a drill press was used .........DESTROY THAT ABOMINATION WITH FIRE!!!!!". You were working, didnt have a fancy schmancy 1/2 inch mortise chisel, but a had a nice shiny drill press.....made it happen.

Joshua, I read this and laughed my tail off when I read this. Thanks man - I needed that!
Fred

[Alan Lightstone]

322381

You didn't see my last chair attempt. Still have nightmares over the pitchforks and torches.

Never again.

[Frederick Skelly]

322381

You didn't see my last chair attempt. Still have nightmares over the pitchforks and torches.

Never again.

Definitely a bad day in the shop Alan. ;)

[Allan Speers]

The best way to ease the pain of mortices, and still keep your knuckle-dragger membership card, is to drill out most of the mortice with a brace.

:)

[Dave Anderson NH]

For me, it depends on the time available vs the quantity needed. I don't use or like the drill press for mortises. I will chop them by hand if there are only a few or if I feel I have the time. If there are dozens I will confess to using my hollow chisel mortiser to save both time and tedium. As an example, when I built my plane till I had to make something like 50-60 12 " long stopped dadoes for the vertical dividers between plane cubbies. There was no way I was going to torture myself doing it all by hand even though all other aspects of the till WERE done by hand.

As others have said in this thread, no one is going to hunt you down and tar and feather you for adding power where it makes sense. It is all a matter of personal choice.

[Warren Mickley]

The best way to ease the pain of mortices, and still keep your knuckle-dragger membership card, is to drill out most of the mortice with a brace.

:)

How long dies it take you to make a mortise in oak 5/16 wide, 1 1/2 deep and 1 1/2 long?

[Tom M King]

322408If I have a few hundred to make, a machine gets the call. If I have a few to make, it gets chiseled out. To me drilling the holes just makes a mess inside the mortise, and may actually take longer. That's a fairly rare and valuable board in the picture. Each mortise (for stile tenons) in that 20' long replacement rail for wainscoting was a different distance from the face-totally not worth the time to fiddle with different setups on a machine. I've been doing it a lot longer than going both ways has been called "hybrid", so don't call me a hybrid woodworker.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,drilling first is ok, but those who have done a lot of them seem to prefer just the mortise chisel. The drilled holes can speed process on really big mortises but on a lot of mortise chisel width work it is too grabby.

[Christopher Shaw]

I've never owned a true mortise chisel so I mostly did them like you described. It's just waste wood. It's not like I've cut hundreds of them though. Maybe I would be more of a purist had I done more.

[Allan Speers]

How long dies it take you to make a mortise in oak 5/16 wide, 1 1/2 deep and 1 1/2 long?


I don't know. It's been a long time since I did any (I took about 8 years away from any fine woodworking) and I never really timed it. I can say, though, that doing it with pig stickers is more work than I ever expected ! (but very enjoyable.)

FWIW, while I have a nice selection of oval bolsters, and a few Japanese mortice chisels, (those are too small, IMO) my favorite mortise chisels are Chinese, (I think. - The small one has the Chinese symbol for “Temple” on it.)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31826742/My%20Chinese%20(%3F)%20Mortice%20Chisels%20.jpg

These very comfortable to use. The english pig stickers are easy to register, though. Also, I prefer a rounded bevel, which these don't have, as that make it easier to leverage-out waste. Still, these are just so cool.

Having said that, I'm far from an expert on such things.

[James Pallas]

I guess if you use a post drill or one of those foot powered mortise machines you could say that no electrons were used. I don't believe for one minute that there are many people who could criticize about you using a drill press if it works for you.
Jim

[Jim Davis]

I have taken apart a few very old mortise and tenon joints and found circles in the bottom that were made by old spur bits, no doubt new at the time. I'm thinking that most joiners were in it for the money and the more pieces they made the more money they got. I'll bet a great many of the pre-electric set, if they could post here, would say it is a waste of time to chop a mortise with only a chisel if you have a way to drill out most of the waste.

[lowell holmes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA


Watch the video link above. It also addresses the old bevel edge chisel vs pig sticker discussion.

[Brian Holcombe]

Depends on the shape, for short but deep tenons I prefer to use a brace and bit to clear the waste, then pare to fit. For long mortises I think it's quicker just to use a mortise chisel.

Worth a note that it's important to chop on a solid surface, I use my saw bench and chop right over the leg, it makes the hammer much more effective.

[Jim Koepke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA


Watch the video link above. It also addresses the old bevel edge chisel vs pig sticker discussion.

I have cut a few 1/4" mortises using various bench chisels, bevel edged and straight edged. Just recently purchased a 1/4" Narex mortise chisel. I won't likely be using a bevel edged or other bench chisel for cutting 1/4" mortises again.

I have also cut mortises of various sizes with various chisels. My preference is for the mortise chisel and my biggest mallet.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I have cut a few 1/4" mortises using various bench chisels, bevel edged and straight edged. Just recently purchased a 1/4" Narex mortise chisel. I won't likely be using a bevel edged or other bench chisel for cutting 1/4" mortises again.

I have also cut mortises of various sizes with various chisels. My preference is for the mortise chisel and my biggest mallet.

jtk

I don't disagree with you, but if a bevel edge chisel is all you have, it is no reason not to chop mortises. I have both kinds but I've made several rocking chairs
that have 1" square mortise and tenon joints in the front post to the arm . I prefer the bevel edge chisel for that joint because the bevel edge chisel leaves a
cleaner joint. That's not a joint that I want to whack away at.

That being said, I have four pig stickers that I really like and I use them when it's appropriate.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't disagree with you, but if a bevel edge chisel is all you have, it is no reason not to chop mortises. I have both kinds but I've made several rocking chairs
that have 1" square mortise and tenon joints in the front post to the arm . I prefer the bevel edge chisel for that joint because the bevel edge chisel leaves a
cleaner joint. That's not a joint that I want to whack away at.

That being said, I have four pig stickers that I really like and I use them when it's appropriate.

I have to agree. When there were no mortise chisels available, my mortising was done with what ever was at hand.

There are exceptions to almost every rule. Most of the time, mortise and tenon joints do not show. Making a joint that will show changes the dynamics of how things are done.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

You'll laugh at me for this. But until I saw the video Lowell posted, I never thought to use the bench chisel like the mortise chisel. I used it horizontally, to remove one layer of material at a time. Like a dovetail. [Head slapl]

Thanks guys!

[Allan Speers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA


Watch the video link above. It also addresses the old bevel edge chisel vs pig sticker discussion.

I'm not a big Paul Sellers fan, but I really like his approach here. I've been trying to take too much off on the side cuts. (with the straight edge of the chisel to the outside.) He shaves almost all of it away first, letting the chisel change orientation as it goes down. I'm dying to try this.

One thing I do that he does not: I always wrap tape around my chisel, so I know when I've reached the bottom of the cut. Sellers' ability to "just stop" when he gets there seems magical to me. Maybe after I've done a few hundred of them .... :o

[lowell holmes]

I'm not a big Paul Sellers fan, but I really like his approach here. I've been trying to take too much off on the side cuts. (with the straight edge of the chisel to the outside.) He shaves almost all of it away first, letting the chisel change orientation as it goes down. I'm dying to try this.

One thing I do that he does not: I always wrap tape around my chisel, so I know when I've reached the bottom of the cut. Sellers' ability to "just stop" when he gets there seems magical to me. Maybe after I've done a few hundred of them .... :o
If you ever met Paul, you would probably like him.

I've been thinking about this string. Probably, we should distinguish "structural" m&t joints versus "decorative" m&t joints. The joints for table leg to apron would be "structural" while through tenons would be "decorative". While all m&t joints are structural, in my mind there is a difference.

Having said that, I use pig sticker chisels on structural m&t joints, but on decorative joints I normally use bevel edged chisels. I do have LN chisels, mortise and bevel edged in addition to the firmer and pig sticker chisels. I think the firmer chisels offer a compromise between the other types. If I had a 1" firmer chisel, I would probably use it on the chair mortises.

OBTW, google "Maynard Method Mortise" and read the Pop Wood article.

[Jim Koepke]

One thing I do that he does not: I always wrap tape around my chisel, so I know when I've reached the bottom of the cut. Sellers' ability to "just stop" when he gets there seems magical to me. Maybe after I've done a few hundred of them ....

Mark your chisel with a Sharpie and you too can perform magic.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Mark your chisel with a Sharpie and you too can perform magic.

jtk

Or try the Maynard Method as shown by Popular Woodworking. Google "Mortising By Hand". I don't use it for small mortises, but I will on a longer mortise. It has the advantage of capturing waste chips as well as controlling depth. Besides, it gives me a reason for having a brace and auger bits. The Sharpie works too. :)

[Frederick Skelly]

Today, my new Narex 12mm (1/2") mortise chisel arrived. Can't wait to try it out. For $18, I thought I'd give it another try......

Thanks again for all your advice here.
Fred