Shaper --Learning Part 2

[Bob Vavricka]

With the sticking ran (see Shaper --Learning Part 1) I set up to run the cope cuts. The cutter came with 6 brass shims which from some previous test cut I figured I would need to use a few of them to make the joint fit properly. From My test cuts the tenon was too thin and fit sloppy in the groove. Doing a little research I found that the spindle not being square to the table could cause the groove to be too wide, so I spent some time shimming the spindle to get it as square to the table as I thought I could.
In setting up the cope cut I determined I would need at least 3 shims to get the tenon thick enough to fit reasonably well. After making some test cuts I found that shimming the cutter gave me a thicker tenon, but it also gave me a gap on the cope above the tenon.
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Taking the shims out and running a test cut I got this result with a gap in the tenon and groove area.
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I don't see anyway around one or the other situation and am leaning toward the first joint to get a good fit in the tenon area which I think will contribute the most to the strength of the joint.
Any other thoughts?

[Malcolm McLeod]

I've done this same thing, but on a router table only - - so, apologies if this is a rabbit hole. I used an Amana rail/style/panel raising 2-piece bit set (the ogee cutter is 'flipped' between cope & stick cuts). It allowed the cutters & shims to be positioned to produce uniformly tight joints for entire kitchen.

You didn't mention how your cutter(s) is(are) built, but I'd lay odds that this can be fixed. ...perhaps post photo of disassembled cutters??

Edit - Could it be that the sticking cutter should have been shimmed differently?

[Bob Vavricka]

Malcom,
Thanks for the reply. It is an Amana SC 546 shaper set and here is a link to the page showing the cutter set.
http://www.amanatool.com/sc546-2-piece-carbide-tipped-3-wing-stile-rail-bead-cabinet-door-3-9-16-dia-x-1-x-9-32-radius-x-1-1-1-4-bore-set-for-3-4-material.html

[Kevin Jenness]

I suspect Malcolm is on the right track and that the sticking cutters should have been shimmed apart to increase the distance from the bottom of the bead to the groove. If so, not much to be done at this point but shim for a tight tenon and accept a poor fit in the bead section of the cope. The tenon in your first photo still looks loose- I shoot for a .002" glueline with yellow glue- that is, the tenon mic's .004" less than the groove width. There should be some friction when dry fitting the joint. As the old guys said, "If you can put it together with your hat, it"s too loose, if you need a hammer it's too tight."

[Bob Vavricka]

I suspect Malcolm is on the right track and that the sticking cutters should have been shimmed apart to increase the distance from the bottom of the bead to the groove. If so, not much to be done at this point but shim for a tight tenon and accept a poor fit in the bead section of the cope. The tenon in your first photo still looks loose- I shoot for a .002" glueline with yellow glue- that is, the tenon mic's .004" less than the groove width. There should be some friction when dry fitting the joint. As the old guys said, "If you can put it together with your hat, it"s too loose, if you need a hammer it's too tight."
Kevin, I hadn't thought about needing to shim the sticking cutters--I'm having trouble visualizing how that would work, so I will have to look at it and try some test cuts. I was just thinking about shimming the cope cut to get the tenon the right thickness. I am afraid you are right about it still being a little too loose. I was trying to talk myself into not having to add another shim, but I think it will be a better joint. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Jeff Duncan]

I believe the shims are supplied essentially to overcome poor spindle alignment in smaller shapers, ideally you would never need to shim your cutters. Did you align your shaper top to spindle before or after you ran the sticking cuts? I'm going to throw out a guess that you did it after, as it looks to me like your groove is too large. If this is the case I'm not sure if you'll ever get a perfect fit as the profile will be a bit off as well. If you think about the mechanics of it only a small amount of misalignment can affect your cuts. 1/2 a degree would be more than enough to give sloppy joints in your parts, which is why proper alignment is so crucial. I had an entire batch of parts come out wrong not too long ago b/c of this problem. I was using a tilting spindle shaper to do a bunch of copes and had not double checked the spindle before running them. My machine has a positive stop so that you know once it hits 0 deg. Unfortunately something had got caught between the stop and the spindle stopped about 1/3 deg. shy of 0. Ruined a bunch of parts just b/c it was out a tiny bit….and b/c I hadn't spent the time to confirm:o

At this point I'd say get as close as you can. Once your past this set I would double check your spindle alignment and then run a couple more stiles and rails to see if the fit is improved.

good luck,
jeffD

[Kevin Jenness]

That is something that should be assessed when putting a new cutter set into service. I have the luxury of two shapers, so I can check the fit of the cope and stick cutters without breaking one down completely to set up the other. Once you get the shimming dialed in you can store the cutters with the shims stacked appropriately or note the arrangement for next time. Sharpening of a brazed set will affect the shimming slightly. Making sure of the fit prior to running a stack of material can save considerable annoyance. You can get sets of various thickness plastic shims from Charles G.G. Schmidt and similar tooling suppliers( I like Connecticut Tool).

[Mel Fulks]

On the better sets you can take off cope cutters and switch to sticking with no spindle adjustment or no spindle adjustment and a shim under the sticking cutters. Run all pieces face down and if a shim is needed mark which one is needed.

[J.R. Rutter]

If it is what it is at this point, I agree with your initial assessment. Setup #1 and use some extra glue on the outside edge part of the pattern to help swell the end grain and close it up a bit more. Do you have an edge sander?

[Mel Fulks]

Don't see whether you bought them new or used. If new I would return them.

[lowell holmes]

I didn't read the whole string, so this may be redundant.
I have used paper to shim the cutters for a shaker pattern set I have. It was straight forward and worked.

[Bob Vavricka]

I believe the shims are supplied essentially to overcome poor spindle alignment in smaller shapers, ideally you would never need to shim your cutters. Did you align your shaper top to spindle before or after you ran the sticking cuts? I'm going to throw out a guess that you did it after, as it looks to me like your groove is too large. If this is the case I'm not sure if you'll ever get a perfect fit as the profile will be a bit off as well.
jeffD

Thanks for the info Jeff. I did the alignment before running the sticking cut. I got the cutters used with the shaper and they didn't appear to be sharpened. However, I am beginning to think they have been. The groove is supposed to be 1/4" and the groove cutter measures about .015 under in width. The groove on the sticking is only .003 - .004 wider than the cutter width so I don't think the alignment is off a lot.
I may need to fine tune the alignment, It is an quite an exercise loosening and shimming to align the spindle and I may have called it good too soon. Bob V.

[Bob Vavricka]

On the better sets you can take off cope cutters and switch to sticking with no spindle adjustment or no spindle adjustment and a shim under the sticking cutters. Run all pieces face down and if a shim is needed mark which one is needed.
Mel, I am using a Panel Crafter 609 to run the cope cuts so I have to adjust and fine tune the height. It would be nice not to have to, but with my setup, I don't see a way out of it. Even then, I should be able to get a better fitting joint. Thanks.

[Bob Vavricka]

Don't see whether you bought them new or used. If new I would return them.
They came used with the shaper. They appear to be in good condition and I didn't think they looked like they had been sharpened. I am beginning to think they have been and that may be causing some of the problem. I'm going to work on the shimming today to see if I can get a better fit. Thanks.

[Mel Fulks]

Sometimes people will just send "the dull pieces" for sharpening. All the pieces should be sharpened. We had a sharpener who would straighten out mis sharpened sets. Gone and missed.

[Bob Vavricka]

OK, I'm feeling better about this project. I tried shimming the sticking cutters and was able to eliminate the gap I was getting around the shaped edge. So, I guess the moral of this story is that if you shim one cut you may need to shim the other. I had ran some test cuts and knew the tongue was not going to be thick enough and thought I could just shim those cutters to fix the problem. Shimming the cope cut moved the top cutter making it fit poorly around the shaped edge. Here is the final result with both pieces shimmed. The tongue is slightly too tight since I have to tap it with a mallet to make it fit, but I haven't ran the cope cuts yet so I will adjust it slightly to make it fit a "little looser". While I had already ran all my sticking cuts, I made the stiles 2 1/4" wide and was able to recut them and only lose 1/8". Since the rails are not cut to length yet, I can make that adjustment and still end of with doors the width I had planned. Thank you to all who commented and particularly Malcolm and Kevin who got me headed in the right direction.
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The cope cut is in a piece of scrap and not quite the right thickness so it is a little shy of the rail top. The tongue is tighter than the picture appears. I have to tap it pretty good to make it fit.

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like you figured it out Bob, I was trying all day to post form my mobile, couldn't get enough service! If I'm seeing this right you have to cope face down and stick face up with this set? It is much easier to set that type of set up all else being equal if both test pieces are the same thickness exactly. Eliminates one thing to track down. Then you have to shim the sticking so the molding/coped profile is tight, then you shim the stub tenon. Sounds like thats pretty much where you wound up. None of these problems exist with a 6 cutter set that runs all face down cuts in standard rotation, but that costs you a lot more.

[Bob Vavricka]

Looks like you figured it out Bob, I was trying all day to post form my mobile, couldn't get enough service! If I'm seeing this right you have to cope face down and stick face up with this set? It is much easier to set that type of set up all else being equal if both test pieces are the same thickness exactly. Eliminates one thing to track down. Then you have to shim the sticking so the molding/coped profile is tight, then you shim the stub tenon. Sounds like thats pretty much where you wound up. None of these problems exist with a 6 cutter set that runs all face down cuts in standard rotation, but that costs you a lot more.
Peter, I ran the stick face up in a clockwise rotation and cope face up in a counterclockwise rotation. Normally, I would try to run face down and not sure why I ended up choosing to do it this way. Face down makes more sense since the good face would be more consistent. I did buy my stock 7/8 skip planed and then ran all the pieced down to 13/16 at the same time to make sure everything was as close to the same thickness as possible. I think a set like you are talking may be in my future. Depends on how many more doors I decide to make.

[Peter Quinn]

Face down makes more sense since the good face would be more consistent.

This is exactly the point of doing it that way, not sure why any manufacturers would do it any other way but they do. Its a fun exercise learning to make a cutter stack work, understanding its geometry, getting it to go. The how many doors part is an important part of the value equation. I do this professionally, we do custom work, and sometimes I'm only making a few of a given door and cant get authorization to buy a cutter stack on such a limited run, you have to figure out how to make it go with what you have. Presently I'm doing a set of doors and will be doing an entire house behind it with the same profile, so we got a brand new freeborn set to handle the work, and its really a joy to deal with. Not the brain teasing how am I going to do this kind of fun, just the perfect doors came out really fast kind of fun.