Glowforge launched today

[Jason Hilton]

It's definitely a consumer level product but man does it do some cool software tricks! Automatically tracing hand-drawn or printed objects direct on the bed with multiple cameras for example, very slick.

http://www.glowforge.com/

[Chris Achtschin]

Very cool, I want one when I grow up!

[Bert Kemp]

MARKETING HYPE:eek:

[Bruce Page]

MARKETING HYPE:eek:

Bert, what is your point? All products are marketed to one degree or another. It's how the sales world turns.

[Jamie Humphrey]

I bought into the hype, if that's what you prefer to call it. I've been following Glowforge since the beginning, and Dan Shapiro the CEO prior to this new company. The product and introductory prices look good to me so I ordered. I'm not sharing my link to $100 off as I'd like to see a civil discussion on the product not a flame the new guy discussion. The product looks to have some distinct advantages over current laser cutters on the market and one large potential downside. If the company goes under the cloud based software, which basically runs the product, could disappear. I can't see that as likely as mainting servers are a minimal cost and I think their plan to charge for premium plans from their catalog should provide for a nice steady stream of income.

[Lee DeRaud]

Could have sworn we beat this to death already...

One thing I missed on the initial discussion: autofocus (good), small Z-axis capacity (not good). For something with "3D" in the title, it certainly seems biased toward sheet goods.

[Lee DeRaud]

Very cool, I want one when I grow up!I'm looking at your equipment list...
Ok, I'll bite: why would you want this? It's not like it will do anything that your current laser can't. (Jury is still out on whether it can do any of it as well as your current laser.)

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm not sharing my link to $100 off as I'd like to see a civil discussion on the product not a flame the new guy discussion.

What do you call a civil discussion? The fact that it's not a printer? Or that many of the things we raised concerns about as far as safety haven't been addressed, at least if we are to believe what's on the website. Comments like "it's as safe as a DVD player" are far from accurate.

On the good side of it, I'm really glad that I'll finally stop getting those calls to take hand drawn drawings and cut cookies for kids out, or maybe the calls to make a one off purse will finally cease.

Or the fact that the price ended up being twice what it was said to be when it was announced? It was said that it's a $2000 3D laser printer, when, in 30 days, it's a $4,000-8,000 laser.

[Paul Phillips]

Well, love it or hate it, it may be the (new) redheaded step child of the engraving world but it appears to be here to stay and we as the Sawmill Creek community need to be prepared to receive a potential new user base of GF'ers (maybe we should coin that!?) with a gazillion questions. When I joined the Creek in '07 the first Chinese machines were just starting to appear and the attitude of many of the Western built owners was to sort of look down on those who were willing to buy the "Cheap Chinese" machines. The Creek has changed much since '07 with a huge influx of Chinese laser owners, I wonder if GlowForge will do the same.

[Steve Morris]

40W laser with relatively limited Z, the 3D claim is REALLY pushing the boundaries of honesty, no mention of what cooling system or filtration of by-products in the ad.
If it is truly TEM00 does that mean its an RF tube?
All those choking children in the house when dad does some leather :D
I wonder what your insurance company will say when you tell them you have one in your home.

Software looks nice on the face of it and the styling is clearly aimed at the Apple generation, so guessing the target users are generally impressionable types who want to be hip with a bit of glitter.
It will sell his marketing is very good.

[Rich Harman]

It was said that it's a $2000 3D laser printer, when, in 30 days, it's a $4,000-8,000 laser.

I doubt they will ever sell for that much - just like everything at Harbor Freight has a "regular" price shown to make you think you are getting a better deal, but you will never see it sold for that price.

[Scott Shepherd]

Paul, I'm sure we will. Maybe we can do a sub-forum ;) After all, it's a 40w laser. They don't seem anxious to actually show many photos of the actual machine, or it cutting :) When all the dust settles, it's going to be exactly what we said it would be, a laser engraver with proprietary software. That's not good or bad, it's just exactly what we said it would be, not anything more or less.

[Rich Harman]

40W laser with relatively limited Z, the 3D claim is REALLY pushing the boundaries of honesty, no mention of what cooling system or filtration of by-products in the ad.
If it is truly TEM00 does that mean its an RF tube?
All those choking children in the house when dad does some leather :D
I wonder what your insurance company will say when you tell them you have one in your home.

Software looks nice on the face of it and the styling is clearly aimed at the Apple generation, so guessing the target users are generally impressionable types who want to be hip with a bit of glitter.
It will sell his marketing is very good.

"Custom" glass tube. Cooling is "Closed loop self contained internal cooling" and thermo-electric for the Pro version, filtration is a duct out the window - unless you opt for the $500 HEPA/charcoal filter.

Yes, the marketing is very good. I'm really curious what those six things that I need to know are. When I click on the link it just takes me back to the main page.

[Scott Shepherd]

You can see it all, and in action here :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R3mMUsHFvU

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

I missed the earlier thread and link to Glowforge so this is all new to me. What surprised me is that intro video is marketing it like a common household item that stays in the kitchen.

Looking at their FAQ page, there is an entry dated "yesterday" (assuming 9/23/15) that explains how the Glowforge is different than a 3D printer. https://glowforge.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/210898507-How-is-Glowforge-different-from-a-3D-printer- (https://glowforge.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/210898507-How-is-Glowforge-different-from-a-3D-printer-)
Glowforge uses subtractive manufacturing while traditional 3D printers use additive manufacturing. A 3D printer builds up material, like plastic filament, layer by layer. With Glowforge, you’ll put a piece of material like leather, wood, or acrylic in the machine and it carves out your product using laser light. The technical name for the category of tools that includes Glowforge is a CNC laser cutter engraver, but that's a mouthful, so we call it a 3D laser printer.

I'm lost here. According to Glowforge, they use "subtractive manufacturing" and therefore refer to their laser as a "3D laser printer" ... because 3D printers use additive manufacturing. If I follow that logic, if I am trying to sell a new medicine but the technical name is a mouthful, I will call it Yummy Sweet Candy and people will automatically know this is not candy, but a bitter medicine that improves your eyesight?

As far as pricing, their Tech Specs page shows the range between $1995 to $4995 and further down the page they do refer to the system as a laser device.

It may have some nice software features, but like others have said, once the fumes start pouring into the kitchen & living room, many of thee new owners will probably want to return them.

[Bert Kemp]

My Point is their using a lot of advertising trying to make you believe this is something more then what it is, a cheap laser engraver.Its not a 3d printer, it can't make leather purses by it self. Come on its a 40 watt engraver and nothing more. It might sell to unsuspecting mommies and daddies that want to make a few cool things for there kids, but any one who knows laser engravers isn't gonna fall for it.

added note I guess there entitled to try to make a buck and advertise it anyway they want. Jamie is kinda right. That we who have real laser engravers are taken back a little by this glowforge thing:rolleyes:


Bert, what is your point? All products are marketed to one degree or another. It's how the sales world turns.

[Jamie Humphrey]

If this forum/website is for professionals with 60W+ lasers only then I agree that this product shouldn't be discussed here. It's totally geared toward sheet goods as it only has 1.5" of z clearance and home workshop use. I learned a bit by watching this video (http://www.tested.com/tech/543141-meet-glowforge-3d-laser-printer/) (Tested.com). They talk about the tube a bit, but it doesn' mean much to me. I'm just looking for something to play around with in my home workshop and I didn't want to go with a Chinese only company (I'm sure these are made in China but at least it is designed and supported by a US company). I think they've added some great new technology to bring an easy to use product to the home user. The 3d printer marketing line isn't really a claim but it sure creates a lot of controversy. I think they're trying to get people to understand what laser cutters/ engravers are capable of, but they sure are pissing anyone off that already knows what they are.

[Scott Shepherd]

Jamie, you're missing the point that many have made. It has nothing to do with coming up with a consumer level laser cutting, whether it's 5W or 500W. Doesn't matter. The issue many people have is that there's a lot of things said about it from the people running the company that are just utter non sense. Many of us raised a lot of concerns about the safety (what's going to happen when a 13 year old puts PVC in it and runs it without venting it, and fills the room with the fumes from PVC?), but now the marketing is just insanity. It's money over everything else. Saying "it's as safe as a DVD player" and then telling people in the video "don't use things like PVC" just doesn't add up. You can't just "tell people" not to do something, and then call it as safe as a DVD player. That's like telling people "don't put your fingers near the blade on a band saw" and then proclaiming your bandsaw is as safe as an alarm clock to use.

I have no problem with the machine, it looks pretty cool. However, it's a huge step backwards and forward at the same time. 14:55 seconds run time on the pieces in the video? And you call that a "breakthrough"? That's 4 minutes on a 45W machine anywhere else. In the videos, they keep mentioning all the things "that are so difficult" or "you can't do" with pro model lasers, yet the examples they use aren't true. They talk about material settings being kept in notebooks and managed by users. What? All of our lasers have material databases and you pick it from a list. They talk about not easily being able to move objects around on the table. Not true. We do it on our Trotec all the time. It's VERY easy to do.

Epilog has a camera system that looks at the work too. It's mounted in the lid as well.

So it's just a little disheartening for some users to watch things be said that just aren't actually reflective of reality in order to make people think that other lasers are just so complex and this is the only machine for you, because it's just so simple and does so many things no other lasers will do.

It's not about the laser itself, it's about the ploy to make everyone else's machines look so complex in order to make theirs look so simple, when the facts are that others lasers are really easy to learn too.

[Bert Kemp]

Scott watching that video of it cutting that flar up was whoa! no air, man thats a fire hazzard plus.It also looked like the flame was going to burn up the laser head.:eek:322082yep let the kids play with it in the kitchen:(

[Bill George]

I watched the first one or two minutes, so much BS anyone who has worked with CNC and or lasers knows its all Blue Sky.

If you think the "Cloud" can run a laser, try running one of Autodesk's new Cloud based CAD programs as 123D or Fusion 360. 123D can be ran on your own machine but they encourage you to work online.

[Scott Shepherd]

In fairness Bert, that was the prototype and it wasn't enclosed and they were showing it in it's infant stage. In the later video, you can see the suction pulling it out.

However, on their website, it says if you run stone or glass, you don't need any exhaust at all. Again, that couldn't be a more inaccurate statement. Anyone that has done much glass are well aware of the "white dust" it makes and what it can do to optics.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I lasted as far as "You don't need the hundreds of dollars worth of red dot alignment" so an $11 mount with beam combiner and a 50 cent diode pack is hundreds of dollars?


aware of the "white dust" it makes and what it can do to optics.

hehehehe Scotty ;) now imagine what that dust will do to their lungs ;)

In effect it is yet another jumble of Chinese parts put together in a nice case marketed for people that believe hype. NOTHING that machine can or does do hasn't been done before but that won't stop it selling...it will sell by the boat load to people that think you can buy a machine and make money like Bill Gates when in reality it's no more than an accident waiting to happen.

This is what happens when marketing gurus get involved in subjects they don't actually know much about and sell stuff to people who wouldn't normally be trusted with plastic scissors !

[Jamie Humphrey]

I don't think I'm missing any points. I'm not really interested in marketing lines so choose not to talk about them. I can't even say I've seen that line regarding DVD players. Was it in the video? I'm interested in whether I should be relooking at the Zing 16, anc cancel this order. Is that a fair comparison, pricewise it doesn't appear so to me? If not a fair comparison what machines are? The flare up point made in an earlier post seems valid to me as they don't have an air compressor line. You mention that other 45W can do the same thing so point noted in my comparison, although as it's just in my shop for fun use it doesn't effect me as that kind of time delay would if I was comparing manufacting level machines.

[Matt McCoy]

...They talk about not easily being able to move objects around on the table. Not true. We do it on our Trotec all the time. It's VERY easy to do.

Please fill in the blank:

Trotec = $__________
Glowforge = $1,995


Epilog has a camera system that looks at the work too. It's mounted in the lid as well.

Epilog w/ Camera = $__________
Glowforge = $1,995

The question of whether or not this will be a product that sells:

As of 8:10 PM CST on the first day of their campaign.

"$857,958 pre-ordered
of our $100,000 goal (857% funded)"

I'm not sure why this laser gets folks so worked-up, but it looks like it will be a thing.

:)

[Dave Sheldrake]

Laser Quality — TEM00 tube produces smaller spot size and greater power density, increasing engraving precision and cutting speeds

No it's not...if a $25,000 SLC Tube from GSI won't give a pure TEM00 wavefront then I'm pretty sure a $100 chinese tube won't either!

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm not sure why this laser gets folks so worked-up

Because last year I spent close to $1.5 M on making sure I complied with safety regulations and ensuring my staff don't get hurt or killed by the job they do so that when a kid who shouldn't be left home alone buys this thing and trys cutting PVC and ends up in the ER my day job will get harder and more expensive yet again to ensure people are safe all because a new supplier decided that they could make a lot of money from people based on marketing hype.

That is why I get worked up...

[Scott Shepherd]

Matt, do you read what I said? I said it's a pretty cool machine, the problem is with the marketing that's just not true. My point is that they could sell millions by telling the truth, there's zero need to hype it. It's that part that rubs people the wrong way. Why do the compare it to a DVD player? To make people fell like it's safe. Period.

If you want to play the comparison game, we can do that. They keep talking about how profitable the machine can be for you, so if you want to compare a $4000 MSRP machine to a Trotec that's $25,000, we can do that, and the Trotec will bury that $4000 machine in every single metric you want to measure, as well as the amount of money you'd be making by creating your purses, satchels, and wallets.

If they would scrub the site from saying things that aren't accurate, most all of would be saying "cool".

[Matt McCoy]

Because last year I spent close to $1.5 M on making sure I complied with safety regulations and ensuring my staff don't get hurt or killed by the job they do so that when a kid who shouldn't be left home alone buys this thing and trys cutting PVC and ends up in the ER my day job will get harder and more expensive yet again to ensure people are safe all because a new supplier decided that they could make a lot of money from people based on marketing hype.

That is why I get worked up...

Lots of lasers are already in schools, libraries, and homes.

[Matt McCoy]

...Why do the compare it to a DVD player? To make people fell like it's safe. Period...

"11. Safe for schools Under US Food & Drug Administration regulations, Glowforge Basic is categorized as a Class 1 laser, like a DVD player, so no special precautions are required to use it. The Pro model is Class 4 device like other lasers, and requires additional precautions."

Sounds straightforward to me.

[Scott Shepherd]

"11. Safe for schools

Under US Food & Drug Administration regulations, Glowforge Basic is categorized as a Class 1 laser, like a DVD player, so no special precautions are required to use it. The Pro model is Class 4 device like other lasers, and requires additional precautions."

Sounds straightforward to me.

Except it's not true. You can't kill someone with a DVD player that's sitting in the same room with you, minding their own business.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Laser Class definitions are a measure of beam safety not overall machine safety. The class is defined by the ability to access unguarded laser beams nothing more.

A 1mw 532nm Green Laser pointer is safe according to it's Class I rating...right up until you shine it into the cockpit of an aircraft

[Matt McCoy]

Except it's not true. You can't kill someone with a DVD player that's sitting in the same room with you, minding their own business.

Please see post 28.

[David Somers]

Oooooh. I just got an email from a company called Trackr. They make little keyfob like devices designed to help you locate lost keys and wallets and pets and whatnot. Their email says they have teamed with GlowForge, advertising that you can now customize your Trackr with your GlowForge in your own home!!! (seriously!) A deal! I can buy my $17 Trackr and by adding a $1700 GlowForge to the order I can use the GlowForge to customize my Trackr!!! As they might say in the UK Dave...."Brilliant!" <grin>

Where is that credit card????

[Dave Sheldrake]

hahahahha I guess I've got cynical over the years brother...my old Dad taught me "If it sounds too good to be true it very usually is" and sadly in this case I think he's right :)

[Matt McCoy]

Laser Class definitions are a measure of beam safety not overall machine safety. The class is defined by the ability to access unguarded laser beams nothing more.

A 1mw 532nm Green Laser pointer is safe according to it's Class I rating...right up until you shine it into the cockpit of an aircraft

Well, goodness -- anything can be misused.

What part of this is not true?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235694-Glowforge-launched-today&p=2471214#post2471214

(http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235694-Glowforge-launched-today&p=2471214#post2471214)Also, please see post 28.

What class are the machines already in schools?

[Scott Shepherd]

Big difference in a school and a kitchen table. You don't have a 4 yr old sister next to you at school where an adult is always present.

[Dave Sheldrake]

What class are the machines already in schools?

I through IIIb usually although it's the suggestion that the machine is "Safe" per se....that generates a system of acceptance that accidents cannot happen.

Most blu-ray players have a 1.5 to 3 watt 445NM diode...the way they are constructed means to get at that diode and cause harm with it is close to impossible (the cartridge is sealed and the drivers are linked on a ribbon cable) so the chances are you would have to be quite skilled to get to the bit that can do harm. Not the case with a laser, we have no blink reflex to the 10,600 wavelength so any minor accident can be serious right off the bat.

It's the potential harm that is the problem

A handgun is safe..it's an inanimate object so much so that millions of good Americans own them. By the same token and test a W53 Nuclear Warhead is also safe right up until it isn't. Then potentially millions can die.

What I'm saying is the test of safety isn't a valid comparison,no more than comparing a Glock 17 to a W53.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Or as Eric Schlosser would call it "The illusion of safety" :)

[Matt McCoy]

I through IIIb...

OK then. :)

Also:

"Because Glowforge is powered by the cloud, it’s an important question. Long term, we’re working on some cool solutions, but short term, here’s a commitment we’ll make right now: When we launch Glowforge, we’ll also release a copy of the firmware under GPL."

http://glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-for-glowforge/

(http://glowforge.com/gpl-licensed-open-source-firmware-for-glowforge/)

[Art Mann]

A thought just occurred to me. The Glowforge cuts out flat parts to construct a 3-D object and they call it a 3-D laser printer. Does that mean a 4 X 8 CNC router is a 3-D cabinet printer? :rolleyes:

[Lee DeRaud]

Most blu-ray players have a 1.5 to 3 watt 445NM diode...Eh? That power sounds high by a couple orders of magnitude. Milliwatt maybe?

[Lee DeRaud]

A thought just occurred to me. The Glowforge cuts out flat parts to construct a 3-D object and they call it a 3-D laser printer. Does that mean a 4 X 8 CNC router is a 3-D cabinet printer? :rolleyes:Wish I'd thought of that when I was selling mine, could have raised the price a good bit...

[Lee DeRaud]

OK then. :)

Also:

"Because Glowforge is powered by the cloud, it’s an important question. Long term, we’re working on some cool solutions, but short term, here’s a commitment we’ll make right now: When we launch Glowforge, we’ll also release a copy of the firmware under GPL."

Trying to figure out what problem that actually solves...
I'd be a lot more impressed if they released the cloud/server-side stuff under GPL, but that ain't gonna happen. If the as-bought machine requires "the cloud" to run, having the source to the firmware doesn't make it run if the cloud-based portion goes bye-bye, it just gives you the theoretical capability to spend a lot of time and money modifying the firmware to run standalone. In the meantime, your Glowforge widget (and all the others) is a rather expensive paperweight.
(That's assuming you know quite a bit about machine control, firmware/software development, etc. As it happens, I do, and I wouldn't touch that job without at least a 6-figure budget.)

[Lee DeRaud]

Except it's not true. You can't kill someone with a DVD player that's sitting in the same room with you, minding their own business.Sure you can: just slip in a copy of "Howard The Duck".

[Rich Harman]

Eh? That power sounds high by a couple orders of magnitude. Milliwatt maybe?

Blu-ray laser diodes are fairly powerful. The ones I've seen are 700 to 1,200 mW. I'm skeptical that you'll find 1.5 to 3 W diodes in common blu-ray players though. A quick search for a 3W diode results in finding one on eBay for almost $500.

[Kim Vellore]

Oooooh. I just got an email from a company called Trackr. They make little keyfob like devices designed to help you locate lost keys and wallets and pets and whatnot. Their email says they have teamed with GlowForge, advertising that you can now customize your Trackr with your GlowForge in your own home!!! (seriously!) A deal! I can buy my $17 Trackr and by adding a $1700 GlowForge to the order I can use the GlowForge to customize my Trackr!!! As they might say in the UK Dave...."Brilliant!" <grin>

Where is that credit card????


I got the same email too and that's how I found out about this laser and I was impressed with the laser except, TrackR is a scam, I got 10 of their trackers for $100 and it does not work, it was a pure marketing hype to sell a product that just does not work. They made millions, you can check the indiegogo site for comments. Anyways, getting back to this laser, if a scammer has teamed up and is marketing this product..... I rather wait.

Also if someone is giving you a 50% discount on a great product as a pre-order price, it looks like they want to sell as many as they can before users can voice out their feedback. This TrackR product had the exact same scheme. I am seeing a red flag here from my TrackR experience.


Kim

[Steve Morris]

Not knocking the machine just the way it is presented. Basically its a really good version of the K40 with some good software touches.

My concern is with statements like TEM00 making me ask if this is false advertising and if it is such a great product why are they selling it at 50% discount when it is massively oversubscribed - goes against all supply/demand business practices unless something is planned to make fast money and run away leaving everyone in the lurch (releasing firmware is another indicator of this).

[Dave Sheldrake]

Eh? That power sounds high by a couple orders of magnitude. Milliwatt maybe?


Apologies, Lee is quite right :)

[Jason Hilton]

I'm not sure any of you have anything to fear competition wise (which is where all of this negativity is coming from). The laser companies may, because a 4K machine with better software (regardless of engrave speed) is going to sell a lot more to schools and maker spaces than will a 35k machine. Not to mention volume. The most popular equipment at every makers pace I've ever visited are the lasers. If you can get 5 machines going for the price of one that's attractive. Actually, for most engraving tasks 45w is plenty, so it should be attractive to folks here too. What does a 15 engrave time per job matter when for the price of your trotec you can quintuple or more your effective engraving surface? Seems like everyone is more afraid than anything, and that's too bad. It keeps you from seeing all the possibilities.

[Bert Kemp]

I have to disagree, seriously do you think a sub 2 K or even a 4 K machine will stand up to School or makerspace use and abuse. I don't think so. I look at the cost of maintaining a decent laser that is cared for in its use and then go to the schools and makerspaces were the machines are not owned by the people using them. They don't pay particular attention to safety and rules, and hey if I just throw it in and hit a button take it out and leave. Don't bother to clean or lube or anything.Theres just so many misconceptions about this laser.I can see it now, the creek getting flooded with people asking how to fix these things and how to up grade them and make them go faster.Oh my 6 year old knocked it off the table and now it doesn't work how can I make it go again. Oh my internet connections down and I promised the kids at school I'd engrave cookies today.


I'm not sure any of you have anything to fear competition wise (which is where all of this negativity is coming from). The laser companies may, because a 4K machine with better software (regardless of engrave speed) is going to sell a lot more to schools and maker spaces than will a 35k machine. Not to mention volume. The most popular equipment at every makers pace I've ever visited are the lasers. If you can get 5 machines going for the price of one that's attractive. Actually, for most engraving tasks 45w is plenty, so it should be attractive to folks here too. What does a 15 engrave time per job matter when for the price of your trotec you can quintuple or more your effective engraving surface? Seems like everyone is more afraid than anything, and that's too bad. It keeps you from seeing all the possibilities.

[Keith Winter]

I was skeptical at first and still am to a degree but I must say I'm really impressed by two things.

1) Excellent marketing video
a) I'm sure they will sell a lot of these if they are as advertised. Once these people get their feet wet I would imagine a percentage of them will graduate to the real lasers like you and I have. Good for the laser manufacturers, but this is bad for engraving professionals. I already compete against a home made laser guy, cannot imagine if everyone gets into this field. Sure he has no ventilation, no safeties and is hurting his health every day, but some people don't care. I could never work in that environment or expect any employee to.

2) Their software and GUI interface.
This is SMART and IMPRESSIVE.
a) Smart because they will likely have a thousand bugs on day one, by going into the cloud it allows them to seamlessly fix the bugs instead of having hundreds of pissed off customers having to upgrade every week. Likely a product killer had they gone the traditional download and install route. Being a tiny company on a shoe string budget, you can guarantee there will be a ton of bugs to fix, and this makes it easy for everyone. Very Smart business move.
b) The feature where it takes a picture of whats on the bed and then displays it on your screen is a duh why didn't the other laser manufacturers think of this scenario? A $4000 laser can do this but my $40,000 Trotec cannot, neither can Epilog or Universal. I cannot imagine how many job errors and countless hours this would save to be able to see the substrate on the screen. I hope the "real" laser manufacturers all add this in future models and upgrades for current models. This is a killer feature in my humble opinion. One we should push the big boys to adapt.

[Lee DeRaud]

Blu-ray laser diodes are fairly powerful. The ones I've seen are 700 to 1,200 mW. I'm skeptical that you'll find 1.5 to 3 W diodes in common blu-ray players though. A quick search for a 3W diode results in finding one on eBay for almost $500.Possibly true for a Blu-Ray writer, but still sounds high given the power density that implies at the head. The numbers I'm finding for players is in the 3mW-5mW range.

[Ross Moshinsky]

The marketing job on this machine is both brilliant and completely misleading. I guess what's brilliant is the fact it's misleading. Using buzz words that create an illusion of the machine being something it isn't is dishonest at best and illegal at worst. I'm also baffled by how they convinced people to fork over their hard earned money so that they could develop a laser that basically already exists, more or less. I'm pretty much 100% against GoFundMe business models so I lose a lot of respect for the business right off the bat for that.

As for the machine itself, I think it looks okay for $2000. It's a tool and it will be sold to people looking for a tool. This will not end up in every household. I see it marketed towards hobbyists in general, and honestly, that's a market sector I don't care about. They don't have money to spend but typically want a lot in return. I also see this being used in engineering, design, and architectural firms which is a market sector I rarely deal with and again, don't care if they go somewhere else. The few times I've worked with them, I found them difficult to work with. So am I concerned about my bottom line? Not especially. I already have people working out of their garage all around me and it hurts my business but I don't think this magically makes someone want to start an engraving business.

Feature wise:
No exhaust and no air assist but being marketed as a laser cutter is dangerous to me. I've used a laser for a long time without air assist. I know you can do it safely but I also know you have to monitor the machine and exhaust is ultra important to keep the chance of burning your machine alive to a minimum. Simply put, you cannot safely run a laser without an exhaust and I don't know how this machine is legally sold without explicitly telling consumers they must add an exhaust setup.

I personally think the cloud based software is completely unnecessary. Why can't you simply load the software onto your machine and have the machine communicate with a central server daily/weekly to check for updates? I think tech people don't live in the real world sometimes. I have internet access nearly 24/7 but that's not the case everywhere. Some people in rural areas are on dial up and struggle to get decent internet from their cell phone providers. Some people get bad connections because of their building or simply just being in a dead spot. What if my net is down for the day because of work being done? I can't use my laser? Going cloud based is completely unnecessary.

Personally, I think the best feature I saw was the overhead camera. I'd really like that feature. I think it would be incredibly useful to me on a nearly daily basis. I doubt how well it works, but the ability to draw something on the machine and have it follow the line I would find useful as well, especially when making jigs and things like that.

In the end, I think people will buy the machine and the machine will probably work fine. I expect some people to be really excited with the results and others to be entirely disappointed. Once again, the end product is down to how creative you are and how well you can create the artwork to create your vision. This is where most people will fail.

[Scott Shepherd]

Seems like everyone is more afraid than anything, and that's too bad. It keeps you from seeing all the possibilities.

If that's what you get from any of my posts, you are reading my posts completely wrong. I'm not afraid of anyone entering the laser market. Competition makes us better. I don't think these lasers will do anything to our specific market. If anything, it'll probably help, because all those one off, don't want to pay much walk in customers will have an outlet. That's fine with me.

I've said about 2-3 times in this thread already, it's a slick machine, I just don't agree with some things they say it is, or comparisons that use that are creating a false narrative.

Let's be honest, no one's going to take a 1000 piece order from us and give it to someone with one of those.

[Matt McCoy]

I'm not sure any of you have anything to fear competition wise (which is where all of this negativity is coming from). The laser companies may, because a 4K machine with better software (regardless of engrave speed) is going to sell a lot more to schools and maker spaces than will a 35k machine. Not to mention volume. The most popular equipment at every makers pace I've ever visited are the lasers. If you can get 5 machines going for the price of one that's attractive. Actually, for most engraving tasks 45w is plenty, so it should be attractive to folks here too. What does a 15 engrave time per job matter when for the price of your trotec you can quintuple or more your effective engraving surface? Seems like everyone is more afraid than anything, and that's too bad. It keeps you from seeing all the possibilities.

Jason: I hope someone gives you a gold star for your post. Your experiences mirror mine with the exception being Techshop, which I believe has/had a partnership with Epilog. I would like to see laser manufacturers become a little uncomfortable and up their game to innovate machines that are approachable for anyone with an idea to make something. Perhaps it would create the disruption (caution: buzzword) in the industry and prevent someone from jacking up the price of a laser tube 72%.

Like the original discussion thread, there still seems to be speculation of doomsday scenarios. I get it. I sometimes hate new things too. However, many of the very creative knocks on the machine, company, and (sadly) the team have been addressed as information has become available and it looks pretty legit to a lot of very smart people (I am not one of them.) Typically on the internet, you will often see phrases uttered like "I don't have a dog in the hunt" or "I don't have skin in the game" as a way to qualify that the following opinion is impartial. Like Jason, I also get the impression (after reading the comments) that the negativity comes from a fear of competition. However, I don't see this as a machine to crank out 1,000s of name tags or trophies but as a tool for artists, designers, engineers, and inventors to create something. I don't see a drawback to this.

[Matt McCoy]

...do you think a sub 2 K or even a 4 K machine will stand up to School or makerspace use and abuse...

They already do.


I was skeptical at first and still am to a degree but I must say I'm really impressed by two things.

1) Excellent marketing video
a) I'm sure they will sell a lot of these if they are as advertised. Once these people get their feet wet I would imagine a percentage of them will graduate to the real lasers like you and I have. Good for the laser manufacturers, but this is bad for engraving professionals. I already compete against a home made laser guy, cannot imagine if everyone gets into this field. Sure he has no ventilation, no safeties and is hurting his health every day, but some people don't care. I could never work in that environment or expect any employee to.

It has ventilation or an optional filter module:

https://glowforge.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/211143687-What-s-the-optional-Air-Filter-


2) Their software and GUI interface.
This is SMART and IMPRESSIVE.
a) Smart because they will likely have a thousand bugs on day one, by going into the cloud it allows them to seamlessly fix the bugs instead of having hundreds of pissed off customers having to upgrade every week. Likely a product killer had they gone the traditional download and install route. Being a tiny company on a shoe string budget, you can guarantee there will be a ton of bugs to fix, and this makes it easy for everyone. Very Smart business move.
b) The feature where it takes a picture of whats on the bed and then displays it on your screen is a duh why didn't the other laser manufacturers this scenario? A $4000 laser can do this but my $40,000 Trotec cannot, neither can Epilog or Universal. I cannot imagine how many job errors and countless hours this would save to be able to see the substrate on the screen. I hope the "real" laser manufacturers all add this in future models and upgrades for current models. This is a killer feature IMO.

I totally agree. Good points.


Feature wise:
No exhaust and no air assist but being marketed as a laser cutter is dangerous to me. I've used a laser for a long time without air assist. I know you can do it safely but I also know you have to monitor the machine and exhaust is ultra important to keep the chance of burning your machine alive to a minimum. Simply put, you cannot safely run a laser without an exhaust and I don't know how this machine is legally sold without explicitly telling consumers they must add an exhaust setup.

It has exhaust. See link above. Also, air assist:

"Air Assist — Internal air assist, no external compressor hookup required"


http://glowforge.com/tech-specs/

[Scott Shepherd]

However, I don't see this as a machine to crank out 1,000s of name tags or trophies but as a tool for artists, designers, engineers, and inventors to create something. I don't see a drawback to this.

I agree 100%. I think artists will LOVE this machine. Creative types will do great with it. That's why I, personally, don't see it as a threat. I also don't think that pointing out errors in their own words qualify anyone as being "opposed to it" or "a hater". If I have a website that says we cut things with a laser that's using a 20,000nm laser, and that's not accurate, if you question that statement, does that make you "against" or, or just someone who's trying to point out the error, an error that might be misleading to someone that doesn't know any better?

It's possible to give criticism without being on the opposite side of things.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Recently developed an interest in 3D printers, so I read thru this out of curiosity.

Seems polarized light creates polarized opinions.

"Don't cross the streams!" - Dr. Egon Spengler

[Kev Williams]

I have this Libra rising somewhere in my astrological lineage, and as usual, it's pushing me to weigh both sides of this story. So, I've fought it long enough, I just have to play devil's advocate -- again.
(Please take this with at least a half a grain of salt, since half of my tongue is in my cheek) ... ;)

As for safety- So far the only 'major' safety issue I've seen put out here, is putting PVC in the thing. Ok-- first of all, what kind of PVC is laying around the house that a kid is going to find to put in the thing? Most PVC plumbing is too thick to fit under the laser. Off the top of my head, I can't think of much PVC stuff laying around that a kid is going to laser. I would HOPE that the instructions that come with the thing DO point out materials that don't belong in the thing. But suppose some PVC does get put in and lasered, the smoke will just go outside, or most of it will get trapped in the hepa filter on those units. If some of gas escapes, those in the house will run outside for fresh air, and they'll learn right away that piece of stuff shouldn't be in there! If someone actually gets hurt, they'll sue, and the company goes broke in litigation-

-or not? Hey, nobody ever told ME not to put PVC in my laser. I'd been running lasers for 9 years before I talked to any other users. And guess what? I engrave PVC in my lasers. I'm halfway thru a 6000 part job right now, been running them since mid August. Did the same job 2 years ago. Know what happens? The PVC ends up with words and numbers on it, and I get paid. My machines suffer no ill effects. Neither to the blowers. Or the neighbors. The tiny bit of smoke produced I blow thru a crude box of old metal-framed furnace filters that I keep damp when running these parts, since water supposedly changes unsafe chlorine gas to reasonably safe hydrochloric acid. Anywhere from 5' away from the filter, there's no smell, no coughing or hacking. But know this- I would never attempt nor advocate whatsoever CUTTING the stuff in a laser.

So that's my dirty little secret. But I know I'm not the only one. Hard to get us PVC engravers to come out of the closet. ;) To continue: like probably most of you, I also keep bleach and ammonia in the house, and drain cleaner, and oven cleaner, and xylene, acetone, propane cylinders, purple power cleaner, and stairs. My house has stairs. I seriously believe stairs will kill or hurt me long before my lasers ever will. I also have an electric stove. I had gas stoves in my last 2 homes. Know what can happen when one of the grandkids turns a knob on that thing, but not far enough for the igniter to fire? Got a neighbor down the street with a new house that can tell ya. And that safe DVD player? Ever had a mad wife throw one at you? And finally, I won't even start with the "g and a" words. (and I have several)

My point is simple- there's plenty of things in any house that are at least as unsafe as burning PVC in an enclosed box. A kid, or adult, will probably get hit by lightning before hurting themselves with that laser.

Next up-- this thing vs say, an actual 3D printer. How many people know someone with one? I've spoken to 3 or 4 of my customers who have one, or know someone who has one. The common theme? They don't use them. After the newness wears off, they become dust collectors. Another production tool-turned-toy: The Cricut. I'd be willing to bet most of those are collecting dust while their owners just use scissors. Same thing's going to happen with these things. The ad hype shows happy families including their new laser at dinner, during homework studies, their whole life revolves around it! Yup, going to be fun at first, but eventually, using it to cut that cookie will be more work than it's worth. It'll find it's place on a shelf, and there it'll stay. I'm sure a few of them might actually be used to make a few spare bucks. And those will probably be used as safely as everyone else uses theirs...

I was reading the other day about the history of laser engravers--
https://www.engraversjournal.com/article.php/2244/index.html

And this passage comes to mind:

...The staff at Epilog spent 1991 continuing to develop the Eclipse and attending trade shows. While it wasn’t hard to convince people that the look of laser-engraved pieces was fantastic, convincing them that the Eclipse was an easy tool they could operate in their own business was an enormous obstacle,” says Dean. “Educating people on how the laser would create stunning graphics on a variety of materials was so far beyond most people’s imagination that it was difficult for them to understand what a laser did, even when they were standing right in front of it. People just had a hard time believing that they could produce this sort of product in their own shop, using nothing more than a scanner and a computer.”

--sounds a bit familiar! :)

Finally- I do understand everyone's concern over this machine, but it's not so much a nuclear bomb, more like a George Forman grill- Just use it wisely and it won't burn ya...

[Matt McCoy]

I agree 100%. I think artists will LOVE this machine. Creative types will do great with it. That's why I, personally, don't see it as a threat. I also don't think that pointing out errors in their own words qualify anyone as being "opposed to it" or "a hater". If I have a website that says we cut things with a laser that's using a 20,000nm laser, and that's not accurate, if you question that statement, does that make you "against" or, or just someone who's trying to point out the error, an error that might be misleading to someone that doesn't know any better?

It's possible to give criticism without being on the opposite side of things.

They bottom line is they express the capability to cut up to 1/4" material. You can flip the stock for thicker materials. No hype there for a 40-45 Watt laser.

I'll let someone else debate the tech specs of the tube, if they wish.

Couple other things that hasn't been discussed that I found pretty interesting:

-It is self-aligning (Goodbye thermal paper)
-Closed-optic lens (Clean)
-Integrated self-cooling (No water bucket and pump)

[Keith Winter]

I particularly love how they call co2 lasers Industrial Carbon Dioxide lasers to make them seem scarier than they are. LOL Definitely good marketing, also having his buddy "interview" him like a journalist asking all the right questions and none of the hard questions pretty misleading but also a brilliant marketing tactic.

I'm sure the manual and box will come with all kinds of disclaimers on it. And the fact is 99% of people who buy this won't care that it might vent into the room. A lot of home based and even small office based sadly do some form of this every day throwing a vent pipe out an open door or whatever until they get big enough that they figure they should start taking people's health into consideration. Or someone gets a health problem from it and they are forced to change their practices. I've argued with people that I know personally and also on here for years that you need to vent things properly but rarely do people listen I've found. How many of you are using those crap chinese blowers to vent your machine? Or dryer hose out an open window? My point is a lot of people don't care. So it argue that the hobbiest will care so much about the smell, or health effects is kind of a pointless argument in my opinion. PVS yes that's a a real risk, but most of it won't fit in there, and also something they try to head off by saying you can buy "approved" materials from them. Also brilliant because they now have a re-occurring revenue stream, and they have a way to say hey only use these materials on our list, or you didn't use our approved materials. In a perfect world would they openly list all the dangers? YES. In reality, it isn't going to happen. Even if they did would the average Joe read it? Do you read all the directions for your power tools and the warnings? If you do then you are in the minority, you'd be shocked how many people don't even know how to run a power saw or hammer drill. Never occurs to them to read the directions...

[Keith Winter]

Great post Kev.

[Matt McCoy]

...also having his buddy "interview" him like a journalist asking all the right questions and none of the hard questions pretty misleading but also a brilliant marketing tactic.

I believe his buddy (may or may not actually be buddies) is Will Smith with Tested (Jamie & Adam from Mythbusters). Unfortunately, Mike Wallace was not available for a hard-hitting expose. :)

I see that Dan is pretty active on Twitter. You might consider reaching out with questions, if anyone is concerned with specific tech specs.

[Keith Winter]

I believe his buddy (may or may not actually be buddies) is Will Smith with Tested (Jamie & Adam from Mythbusters). Unfortunately, Mike Wallace was not available for a hard-hitting expose. :)

I see that Dan is pretty active on Twitter. You might consider reaching out with questions, if anyone is concerned with specific tech specs.

Let's just say buddy or not, this guy knew the questions to ask to shed the best light on the product, and also didn't dig into the more hairy topics. If anyone on this board was interviewing him it wouldn't have been as rosey because they would have asked real questions, and called his bluffs. That being said I'm a fan of the piece, very entertaining to watch. However leave it at what it is, a brilliant piece of marketing, not true journalism or an unbiased review.

[Jacob John]

Is this being marketed toward the Cricut crowd? I would be lying if I said I wasn't concerned, as a new business owner. The uncertainty about how it will affect online retail sales concerns me, although I think most of you guys aren't in this category, right?

[Matt McCoy]

Let's just say buddy or not, this guy knew the questions to ask to shed the best light on the product, and also didn't dig into the more hairy topics. If anyone on this board was interviewing him it wouldn't have been as rosey because they would have asked real questions, and called his bluffs. That being said I'm a fan of the piece, very entertaining to watch. However leave it at what it is, a brilliant piece of marketing, not true journalism or an unbiased review.

Noted. You're expectations might be too lofty for that piece with expectations beyond its intention. Perhaps you are used to the grilling examination of Trotec's machines.

Spoiler: Same guy.

http://cnckingdom.com/adam-savages-trotec-speedy-300/

(http://cnckingdom.com/adam-savages-trotec-speedy-300/)

[Scott Shepherd]

Matt, it seems is anyone says one word about this machine that isn't raving about it, the company, or it's Team, they you think we are just being unfair.

You must read these posts far different than I do. I have seen a lot of people saying valid things to talk about.

I guess we're not allowed to criticize it at all. Let me start from scratch then....


YAHHH!!!! They rock, that's amazing, can't wait to get one.



If I say anything than that, then I'm being critical, I guess.

[Bert Kemp]

Can't see the forest cause tree's in the way, Can't see fire cause of all the smoke.

[Matt McCoy]

Matt, it seems is anyone says one word about this machine that isn't raving about it, the company, or it's Team, they you think we are just being unfair.

You must read these posts far different than I do. I have seen a lot of people saying valid things to talk about.

I guess we're not allowed to criticize it at all. Let me start from scratch then....


YAHHH!!!! They rock, that's amazing, can't wait to get one.



If I say anything than that, then I'm being critical, I guess.

Anyone should be allowed to say anything about this machine, in a thread set up for its discussion (within the TOS). Point/counterpoint, and all that. I don't take anything said personally or care if we don't share the same opinion. I hope we do have that in common. :)

[AL Ursich]

This is the CarveWright of the CNC forum in the Laser Engraving forum.... Low "er" cost, less capability, non standard software... A Cricut Laser Engraver is a good description...

For me, I would likely regass my old Epilog 25 watt before buying something like this.

AL

[Bert Kemp]

Dan Shapiro says "Funny thing about Seattle: Nearly every space zoned for manufacturing is near a marijuana processing facility." Hmmmmmm maybe all those fumes went to his head , not enough exhaust:rolleyes:

[Matt McCoy]

This is the CarveWright of the CNC forum in the Laser Engraving forum.... Low "er" cost, less capability, non standard software...
AL

Al: Can you expand on the "less capability"? What are you comparing to?

non-standard software is being touted here.

[Jason Hilton]

I think this all comes down to the software. This is Glowforge's first machine. They could conceivably put out high powered large bed professional machines in the future, but their focus on a good user experience is key, and something that other manufacturers are lacking. The ease by which a user can move, place, and control things leaves other machines in the dust. All my questions are around how much manual control I can get. Something they mention in a video is that the machine can test cut materials to figure out settings, which is pretty cool, but can I manually override those? Can I put in numbers? Can I be a power user with their machine? I'm still awaiting answers to those questions, but in all I think their approach is really solid. The feature roadmap is potentially unlimited and the things they've already mentioned are awesome (3d relief is a fav of mine).

[David Somers]

Art! I like that concept! With some good marketing you could show the 4x8 CNC on a kitchen counter (big kitchen obviously) with no outside vent or dust collection, and a happy Mom and 5 year old working on fun 3D projects to take to school! And it could be as safe as a DVD burner! <grin>

Jason....sorry! Having fun being snarky about this. <grin> The advert did raise my eyebrows though after watching it. I am reallllllly curious to see how this all works out for them. And it will be very interesting to see what the 1st batch of users who show up here experience.

[Jason Hilton]

Indeed. You an count on a thorough review from me once mine arrives :)

[AL Ursich]

Al: Can you expand on the "less capability"? What are you comparing to?

non-standard software is being touted here.

Matt, With the CarveWright the software is non standard and is less capable than say a G code where you can control the functions better like feed rate. The CW is more a Hobby Machine. IF you are willing to respecting the CW Limitations, I have been a very happy user working within the limitations like feed rate. I cut lots of FRP Sheet stock into Fire Tags and at first the feed rate was TOO fast and it was making a rough cut and pushing the tags off the double stick tape. A work around was to assign a 1/4 inch bit but actually use a 1/16th Circuit Board End Mill bit. By lying to the machine's non standard software, I trick the machine into staying in what I call 1st gear feed rate making for a perfect cut. Normally the machine would shift into 2nd gear after getting started and cause problems.

So first look at this Laser I see it being similar to the CW where you may have less capabilities compared to a Epilog with standard software. Even like the Cricut cutter compared to my FC7000.

I am new to the Cloud Software concept... I do have some interest in this Laser... My first limitation is that I don't even have a cell phone... so that would be a slight problem...

I have learned to work within my capabilities of the CarveWright and for my Small Business I snagged another Fire Tag Order this morning making three I am working on at the moment totaling over $8K. If I did not have the CW to cut the Sheet Stock into tags and Wood Handles for the Boards I make I would be sunk...

So as far as the Laser's Non Standard Software, looks like I may not be in a position to really comment on that. It was a first impression.... The CarveWright has gotten beat up over the years in the CNC forum for being non standard. That was my impression reading the many comments on the Laser.

AL

[Matt McCoy]

Matt, With the CarveWright the software is non standard and is less capable than say a G code where you can control the functions better like feed rate. The CW is more a Hobby Machine. IF you are willing to respecting the CW Limitations, I have been a very happy user working within the limitations like feed rate. I cut lots of FRP Sheet stock into Fire Tags and at first the feed rate was TOO fast and it was making a rough cut and pushing the tags off the double stick tape. A work around was to assign a 1/4 inch bit but actually use a 1/16th Circuit Board End Mill bit. By lying to the machine's non standard software, I trick the machine into staying in what I call 1st gear feed rate making for a perfect cut. Normally the machine would shift into 2nd gear after getting started and cause problems.

So first look at this Laser I see it being similar to the CW where you may have less capabilities compared to a Epilog with standard software. Even like the Cricut cutter compared to my FC7000.

I am new to the Cloud Software concept... I do have some interest in this Laser... My first limitation is that I don't even have a cell phone... so that would be a slight problem...

I have learned to work within my capabilities of the CarveWright and for my Small Business I snagged another Fire Tag Order this morning making three I am working on at the moment totaling over $8K. If I did not have the CW to cut the Sheet Stock into tags and Wood Handles for the Boards I make I would be sunk...

So as far as the Laser's Non Standard Software, looks like I may not be in a position to really comment on that. It was a first impression.... The CarveWright has gotten beat up over the years in the CNC forum for being non standard. That was my impression reading the many comments on the Laser.

AL

I appreciate that.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm giving up all this laser smaser stuff....I'm going to get into the toy business where safety isn't a consideration ;)

322142

[Lee DeRaud]

Al: Can you expand on the "less capability"? What are you comparing to?Speed and Z-axis capacity for starters, compared with, well, just about anything any of us already own.
You can certainly make the case that non-standard software is a feature rather than a bug, but that requires it to do something the standard software can't: the proverbial "killer app".

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm giving up all this laser smaser stuff....I'm going to get into the toy business where safety isn't a consideration ;)

322142That one is actually pretty benign compared to some of the stuff I recall being standard in 1950's chemistry sets.

[Dave Sheldrake]

That one is actually pretty benign compared to some of the stuff I recall being standard in 1950's chemistry sets.

Had a lot of experience with Po^210....horrible stuff....low order Alpha and low KeV gamma emitter but makes cyanide look like candy toxicity wise

[Clark Pace]

So one of my customer friend is getting a glow forge. I'll see if I can get you updates.

[Bert Kemp]

Gonna be a wait since they don't ship the first ones till December I think he said.

[Kev Williams]

So one of my customer friend is getting a glow forge. I'll see if I can get you updates.

Throughout my career in this wierd biz, I've had several customers who took me out of their loop by buying their own engraver. Pretty much every one of them came back. Just yesterday a customer I haven't seen since the '90's called for a quote. I didn't even know they bought their own engraving equipment. Only one of my customers, large company, ever made a real go of doing their own engraving. But they still haven't figured out how to laser stainless, so I still get that work from them.

Just saying, don't bother worrying about these things stealing business away from you. Even if they do, it won't be for long... :)

[brian saban]

So I just got back from the NY world maker fair and got to check out the Glowforge. So here's the thing, it's basically built like a HP inkjet with lots of plastic, it has a large glass tube in plain sight. Although the strangest thing was they has 3 machines on hand and none of them operating and no matter who you asked each had a different answer as to why. Most said later, but with an hour left of the faire that never happen, one employee said there was an issue with the water cooling system which is in a separate box (although that doesn't add up as there are 3 machines. They kept touting how it can cut 3/4" ply, but only had samples of 1/8th in on hand. It just doesn't add up, I'll hold judgement till I see one in operation.
322177

[Rich Harman]

Things I like about the Glowforge;



Continuous focus of the lens/pre-mapping of material height.
Being able to position graphics via the overhead camera.
Enclosed mirrors
Cooling, air assist and exhaust fan are integrated into the base machine.


Things I dislike;



Requirement of being connected to the internet to use the machine. (that's a big one for me)
Calling it a 3D printer (!?)
Pretending that it is safer than it is.


When asked if the Glowforge should be watched while it is operating Shapiro responds with something like "who wouldn't want to watch it?", when pressed he says it's probably a good idea to keep an eye on it. The message that people will take away from that is that it is fine to leave it. A friend of his lost a laser to fire when it was left unattended - he knows the dangers. Why is he not emphasizing that it is very important not to leave a machine like that (any laser) to run by itself? It would be easy to make that point without hurting the image of the product.

I think the main issue most people have with Glowforge is not the machine itself, but the way it is being presented.

[Jason Hilton]

Glowforge isn't marketing any differently than any other laser manufacturer. There's no mention of safety or potential fires or any of the obvious dangers of operating a laser in any of the marketing or interview videos I've seen from any other laser manufacturer. Hell, Epilog all but guarantees that buying one of their lasers is all it takes to create a successful engraving business.

Despite several people's assertions I still believe that the fear is the same that professional photographers had when digital cameras started to become ubiquitous: You're afraid your business will suffer as more people have access to less expensive, easy to use tools. What you should really be spending your energy on is how to innovate in your business to take on the change in the market.

[Rich Harman]

Glowforge isn't marketing any differently than any other laser manufacturer.

Yeah, I think they are marketing differently than any other laser manufacturer. Regardless, it doesn't make it right.

It is amazing to me the general acceptance, even approval, of deceptive marketing. Everybody does it, so everybody has to do it more - I guess that is the theory anyway...

[Bert Kemp]

Jason I don't think anyone here is afraid somones going to steel their business, this machine is not capable of any sort of production, its a glorified toy that I think for the most part people will buy it, play with it for a few days or a week or two at most then its goin to be a dust collector. I look at the many people that have bought decent lasers and couldn't make a go of it. I think what most of us here are concerned about is the way its being presented and safety.

[Anthony Scira]

Man if it works as advertised the big names will have some catchup to do.

I am thinking it will not even come close to working as advertised.

[Scott Shepherd]

Despite several people's assertions I still believe that the fear is the same that professional photographers had when digital cameras started to become ubiquitous: You're afraid your business will suffer as more people have access to less expensive, easy to use tools. What you should really be spending your energy on is how to innovate in your business to take on the change in the market.

Jason, several of you guys keep taking that angle on it and I think you are really missing the point. Look at the names of us who have complained about some of the issues. Do you really think Dave Sheldrake's business will suffer from it? I've already said it won't impact my business one bit. I don't cut cake toppers for kids birthday parties, never been asked to make one purse, handbag, cardboard globe, puzzle pieces, or anything else they show. Honestly, the jobs it's showing people doing are jobs we turn down because there's no money to be made.

I have no problem with the machine or it's features, just the marketing. I think they could have accomplished the same thing without having to say things that were borderline in the truth department. If it's so great, let it stand on it's own merits. No need to say something that's not accurate. I just don't understand that side of it. Why mention that the red dot point setup costs over $500 to add to a machine, when in fact, it's less than $50? That's my point. They didn't even need to go there. Just say "Most lasers use red dots, we upped the game and we use precision cameras". Then it makes it sound like you did an upgrade, where before, you said you put cameras on it because you didn't want to spend $500 to have a red dot pointer. That sounds like you were cutting costs. One way of saying it sounds like cost cutting, one way sounds like an upgrade. But that didn't need to happen because red dot pointer systems aren't $500.

In the original thread, I also said they'd sell millions of dollars worth, so let's be honest, it's doing exactly what we said it would do.

[Dave Sheldrake]

They kept touting how it can cut 3/4" ply

That kind of thing is what really annoys me....yes it is true that it will cut 3/4 ply but so will a 1 watt 532nm green laser eventually. It's telling people just enough to allow them to jump to incorrect conclusions and still being able to cover by saying "We didn't say how long it would take or what the quality would be like"


You're afraid your business will suffer as more people have access to less expensive, easy to use tools. What you should really be spending your energy on is how to innovate in your business to take on the change in the market.

The day I have to concern myself about losing business to even a factory full of Glowforge machines is the day my doors will close permanently. What does it for me is the industry we are in is already full of half truths and creative marketing so when something that has been done before many times comes along and tries to tell me it's all new and revolutionary I find it little more than an insult to my intelligence.

The marketing angle is directed at people who want to plug and play with lasers and make money...what they neglect to mention is that the actual machine is only a tiny tiny part of that equation....

[Anthony Scira]

No damned way is that thing cutting 3/4 ply cleanly.

[Dave Sheldrake]

No damned way is that thing cutting 3/4 ply cleanly.

That's the problem Tony, "Cleanly"...we all know it but the buyer won't ;)

[Bert Kemp]

3 Machines at the NY makers fair and not one of them worked. like holy manure, what kind of company would take non working products to a makers fair.Something really weird about this whole thing. Also I sent the company an email last Thursday asking a few questions about the water cooling system and the laser tube, still no reply. To be fair I got an auto reply that said I was 365 in the Q so I'll give them a day or 2 more but to be honest I don't think I'll hear from them, not if they can't give honest face to face answers at a show:( Also they said something about flipping your material over to cut up 3/4 ply. Wow I'd like to see that trick preformed. Might work if you were cutting a sq or circle and could flip it over to it exactly lined up perfectly. Don't think that would happen to often with an intricate patterns.They make it sound so easy.

[Art Mann]

There is an alleged car company called Elio. Look them up with Google. They are promising to deliver a fully enclosed two seater that gets 85 mpg and only costs $6800. People have been sending them large sums of money for several years to "reserve" their vehicle with nothing more than a promise of some future delivery. That date has now been pushed forward for several years and my guess is all those people will eventually lose their money. I have to wonder if Glowforge isn't playing the same game. Why in the world would they bring non-functional units to a trade show unless they couldn't get them to work.

[Jason Hilton]

You guys keep saying they're "touting" specific features and things that they aren't. The red dot quote that keeps getting mentioned is in an interview done by tested.com and isn't part of their marketing. Additionally, the 500$ price thing is only mentioned as part of the greater discussion about how they did away with analog positioning completely and made it more accurate by using cameras and software. As to the "cutting 3/4 inch plywood" you're forgetting the rest of the quote (which is a single sentence fyi) that you have to flip the workpiece in order to get through the thicker material, language that is also clearly stated on their web site on the tech specs page. As to the "implied safety", well, it's no different than any other laser companies marketing videos. So trotec doesn't mention fire danger in their marketing videos and it's fine, but glowforge doesn't and they're deceptive? They're not being dishonest, their software really is pretty incredible with what it can do. Even with a camera system can your trotec or epilog tell what kind of a material is placed in your machine, how deep it is? They're marketing the best features of their machine just like everyone else. They aren't claiming it's as fast as a Speedy 300 or can do the volume of a kern. I'm not sure when the person above visited them at maker faire, but there's video on make.com of those machines cutting at the NY fair.

I guarantee that the big 3 laser manufacturers are watching those software feature videos and scrambling for the best way to copy them. Chances are higher than average they've all already ordered 1 or 2 just to see for themselves.

I'm just not understanding all the hostility to a really cool product that granted, might not be for the production shops or for most folks in this forum. But for someone like me who has already paid more than the cost of the machine in monthly dues to use a laser for a couple of hours month at a makerspace it's a no-brainer. The fact that it works on my mac is a huge bonus, and based on my evaluation of what I've seen of the software so far it will definitely save me time in prep, so if it cuts a little slower than the epilog I've been using who cares? Sure, I can get a Chinese laser for close to the same cost, but then I have to deal with all the crap that comes with it. Glowforge is marketing a product completely unlike the manufacturing industry is used to, and that's a good thing. 3 years from now when they put out a full sized industrial machine that costs half what a trotec does and has 3 years of solid software and user experience engineering behind it everyone in this thread who's naysaying now will be planning their next purchase. Change is scary, but you'll get used to it.

[Doug Griffith]

I work with quite a few companies with the same equipment I have access to. Most use only a small percentage of the capacity of the machine because that is all they know how to do. In a nutshell, most people that purchase Glowforge machines will sit and stare at it because there is no magic button to achieve what they thought they could do without the proper skillsets. Sure, they can purchase a canned item like a leather wallet. Whoopee. It will be a brick in the kitchen that occasionally spits out noxious fumes when the parents are away.

[Lee DeRaud]

Even with a camera system can your trotec or epilog tell what kind of a material is placed in your machine...?When they show a video of someone putting a piece of PVC in the machine and the software refuses to fire the laser, then I'll start believing that feature is for real.

[Rich Harman]

Even with a camera system can your trotec or epilog tell what kind of a material is placed in your machine...


That feature works only on material purchased from Glowforge that is marked with IR ink (or maybe it's UV ink).

[Jacob John]

I'm going to play devil's advocate, even though I'm sure this has been discussed already. I've already stated my position that this low cost laser does concern me as an online retailer. With this laser, the Etsy stores will be overrun with people using the Glowforge to put out all kinds of one-off items. I don't operate an Etsy store, but I can see this cutting into my business some, as I do sell one-off items as a part of my business. The Glowforge looks like an entry level laser engraver that has some really cool features that I hope the other companies will offer at some point. With that said, doesn't the Rayjet do that as well? It's marketed as an entry level laser, from 12w-50w. It's also a laser that I strongly considered because of its ease of use (something the Glowforge also promotes). Had I not found my used Epilog, I would have purchased it.

I guess my point is that if this is a laser that has some really desirable features (and it appears to have quite a few), wouldn't we want that so that companies like Epilog, Trotec, and ULS take notice and add these? I understand the Cricut crowd promotion of it, and that concerns me as well, but I think at the end of the day, creating competition will only lead to much better features for our lasers as we move forward.

Just a humble opinion from a new guy. :)

[Rodne Gold]

lasers are tools more like a mill or lathe.. you get big ones for production and then you also have little ones for hobbyists.. just having one means nothing..

[Bert Kemp]

Does anyone really think you can put in a material and the machine will know what it is.The other big thing that concerns me is the fire hazard. This machine is made out of plastic, not metal so when it catches fire (AND IT WILL) Its going to do a lot more damage to people and homes. I know a lot of us here have had fires while cutting, we all know the danger of fire with a laser, we all know to have a spray bottle , or a fire extinguisher close by and we all know to watch as we cut.
Do you really think that the average person having one in the kitchen is really going to tell their 10 year old to watch while it cuts out a doll house, so mommy can run down and do laundry .Yes they will and when she gets back the whole house will be up in flames.
Yes its they say it has some cool features but do they work? Well not according to the guy who went to the makers fair, none of the machines were working.
Personally I think anyone who sends money for an untried un tested product to be delivered sometime in the future maybe should be prepared to loose their money.

[Tony Lenkic]

When they show a video of someone putting a piece of PVC in the machine and the software refuses to fire the laser, then I'll start believing that feature is for real.

Lee, my understanding is that camera system is to read registration marks mainly for cutting shapes on substrates like they use it in vinyl plotters and die cutting machines like Zund and has nothing to do with identifying what materials operator load in the cabinet. If substarte is irregular shape or angled onto bed camera will do it's purpose.

[Doug Griffith]

That feature works only on material purchased from Glowforge that is marked with IR ink (or maybe it's UV ink).

So my prediction of "material cartridges" almost happened. Next up, after a few mishaps inspired by their "safe as a DVD player" marketing, the machines will only operate if using their specially coded materials.

[Lee DeRaud]

That feature works only on material purchased from Glowforge that is marked with IR ink (or maybe it's UV ink).Their business model suddenly starts to make sense.
And not in a good way.

[Lee DeRaud]

So my prediction of "material cartridges" almost happened. Next up, after a few mishaps inspired by their "safe as a DVD player" marketing, the machines will only operate if using their specially coded materials.Like the latest-generation Keurig coffee makers?

[Doug Griffith]

Their business model suddenly starts to make sense.
And not in a good way.

Yep. Since they're releasing the firmware under a GPL license, now would be the time to start digging under the hood.

[Glen Monaghan]

Speaking of having fires, one of the glowforge videos showed a sizable tongue of flame shooting up out of a cut line with no apparent air assist. The flame tip was kissing the underside of the head for quite a while, which can't be good for the optics. Quite perversely, I was thinking about that yesterday when I had a fire break out while cutting a bunch of intricate shapes (lots of millimeter-sized holes and filigree patterns) from 1/8" acrylic.

I was standing over the laser engraver, weeding the paper mask from the 1st batch of shapes while cutting the 2nd batch, and my mind wondered off, thinking about that video and contemplating how many people have had fires while they left their lasers "for just a minute". I recalled how others on this list have talked about the problems of designing some sort of flame/fire sensor, or had set up cameras and monitors so they could keep an eye on the working laser while they did some work on their computer or took care of some other business across the shop from their laser. So there I stood over the laser, weeding mask, thinking about life and the universe, and sort of looking down into the engraver, when I suddenly realized that there was a flickering bright yellow light in the machine. Refocussing my eyes from the part I was weeding, I saw a yellow flame burning a few inches away from where the laser was currently cutting.

I managed to dump half of that first batch of shapes onto the floor as I flipped the lid up, snatched and pumped the spay bottle filled with water, and put the fire out.

From the looks of things, the fire was caused by cutting some of the fine filigree near the edge of the acrylic sheet, allowing localized heating that was sufficient to catch the paper mask on fire (which was why the flame was yellow rather than the nearly clear flame from burning acrylic). Back when I first starting cutting these designs, I had frequent flareups and figured it was due to too much dwell time cutting in a small area. Consequently, I turned off vector optimization and manually broke up and re-ordered the cut vectors to skip around the design, never cutting continuously in one small area for long. I also jacked up the air assist pressure to help blow out any flames that might pop up. Those changes virtually eliminated the flareups. Apparently, this time I was cutting close enough to the edge of the acrylic sheet that one of the more intricate cuts was able to heat that area just enough, and the laser was just finishing one of the shapes and jumped away to start another, so the air assist had no impact on the burning mask... Thing is, I've had a couple of small fires before and so am a bit paranoid about it. I was standing there, "watching" my laser and yet I didn't notice the fire until it was big enough to deposit smoke on the underside of the lid. I was running strong air assist. I'd reconfigured the job to minimize the chance of fire. But I was "multi tasking" and not really watching closely and a self-sustaining fire was able to catch. I was fortunate that the only damage was the one shape ruined by the fire. The machine's acrylic lid was undamaged and the smoke wiped right off the underside. So I lucked out.

When I think of all the horror stories about people cutting their hands in table saws, burning themselves with propane torches, crushing/amputating fingers in metal brakes, falling off ladders, and all manner of other dumb-@ssed things we do to ourselves these days because we don't truly pay attention to what we are doing, I do expect there will be a significant growth in serious fires as laser engravers/cutters become more ubiquitous. This has nothing to do with the make or model of laser, it's all about the operator...

[Matt McCoy]

So my prediction of "material cartridges" almost happened. Next up, after a few mishaps inspired by their "safe as a DVD player" marketing, the machines will only operate if using their specially coded materials.

Doug: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you predicted only proprietary cartridges. That is not the case. Material sourced, cut-to-size, and marked for for ease-of-use seems to be what they want to provide in addition to a users own stock. Although, you appear to be doubling-down with the "specially coded materials". Hopefully you don't visit Vegas too often. :)

[Anthony Scira]

Im just saying if the launch at MakerFaire was this rocky I think all those preorder people will be sorely disappointed.

[Matt McCoy]

Speaking of having fires, one of the glowforge videos showed a sizable tongue of flame shooting up out of a cut line with no apparent air assist. The flame tip was kissing the underside of the head for quite a while, which can't be good for the optics. Quite perversely, I was thinking about that yesterday when I had a fire break out while cutting a bunch of intricate shapes (lots of millimeter-sized holes and filigree patterns) from 1/8" acrylic.

I was standing over the laser engraver, weeding the paper mask from the 1st batch of shapes while cutting the 2nd batch, and my mind wondered off, thinking about that video and contemplating how many people have had fires while they left their lasers "for just a minute". I recalled how others on this list have talked about the problems of designing some sort of flame/fire sensor, or had set up cameras and monitors so they could keep an eye on the working laser while they did some work on their computer or took care of some other business across the shop from their laser. So there I stood over the laser, weeding mask, thinking about life and the universe, and sort of looking down into the engraver, when I suddenly realized that there was a flickering bright yellow light in the machine. Refocussing my eyes from the part I was weeding, I saw a yellow flame burning a few inches away from where the laser was currently cutting.

I managed to dump half of that first batch of shapes onto the floor as I flipped the lid up, snatched and pumped the spay bottle filled with water, and put the fire out.

From the looks of things, the fire was caused by cutting some of the fine filigree near the edge of the acrylic sheet, allowing localized heating that was sufficient to catch the paper mask on fire (which was why the flame was yellow rather than the nearly clear flame from burning acrylic). Back when I first starting cutting these designs, I had frequent flareups and figured it was due to too much dwell time cutting in a small area. Consequently, I turned off vector optimization and manually broke up and re-ordered the cut vectors to skip around the design, never cutting continuously in one small area for long. I also jacked up the air assist pressure to help blow out any flames that might pop up. Those changes virtually eliminated the flareups. Apparently, this time I was cutting close enough to the edge of the acrylic sheet that one of the more intricate cuts was able to heat that area just enough, and the laser was just finishing one of the shapes and jumped away to start another, so the air assist had no impact on the burning mask... Thing is, I've had a couple of small fires before and so am a bit paranoid about it. I was standing there, "watching" my laser and yet I didn't notice the fire until it was big enough to deposit smoke on the underside of the lid. I was running strong air assist. I'd reconfigured the job to minimize the chance of fire. But I was "multi tasking" and not really watching closely and a self-sustaining fire was able to catch. I was fortunate that the only damage was the one shape ruined by the fire. The machine's acrylic lid was undamaged and the smoke wiped right off the underside. So I lucked out.

When I think of all the horror stories about people cutting their hands in table saws, burning themselves with propane torches, crushing/amputating fingers in metal brakes, falling off ladders, and all manner of other dumb-@ssed things we do to ourselves these days because we don't truly pay attention to what we are doing, I do expect there will be a significant growth in serious fires as laser engravers/cutters become more ubiquitous. This has nothing to do with the make or model of laser, it's all about the operator...

Glen: As mentioned and linked, the machine has air assist.

Your last sentence is spot-on.

[Bert Kemp]

Glad you didn't burn up anything to critical and yes its mostly about the operator. These machines are geared toward the general public and not machine operators, who are generally more aware of the dangers associated with operating them.These are being advertised as safe as a DVD player and that's an out and out LIE. I can leave my DVD player running unattended for hours and I don't have to worry about my house burning down. But would I run out and wash the car while the laser is cutting. Or leave a kid to watch it, NO! but thats what's going to happen with these. They have to start advertising safety procedures while operating them if they ever get them to market. My laser has a yellow caution fire hazard sticker on it along with all the other warning stickers, Radiation, high voltage ect ect. I don't know maybe the glowforge does too, but here just saying how safe it is.:mad:

[Doug Griffith]

Doug: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you predicted only proprietary cartridges. That is not the case. Material sourced, cut-to-size, and marked for for ease-of-use seems to be what they want to provide in addition to a users own stock. Although, you appear to be doubling-down with the "specially coded materials". Hopefully you don't visit Vegas too often. :)

I actually hit Vegas all the time. I do a lot of business out there.

Obviously proprietary cartridges are out of the equation. Their hardware isn't built for them. My thinking now shifts to "proprietary materials" where their camera system (the one that is already in place and used to read their specially coded materials) will be used as a means to ensure that only their materials can be used. The system is in place already so it's just a matter of coding. Since they're on the cloud, it would be an easy upgrade.

I actually think it might be a good idea for their lower-end systems. It would help prevent loading materials such as PVC or teflon. It won't help keep the house from burning down but it would be a start.

[Scott Shepherd]

As to the "implied safety", well, it's no different than any other laser companies marketing videos. So trotec doesn't mention fire danger in their marketing videos and it's fine, but glowforge doesn't and they're deceptive?

I don't recall any laser manufacturers marketing commercials so wrapped around kids and doing this from your kitchen table, or making comments in their marketing like "It's safe for ANYONE to use". If you have a conversation with any sales rep from any of the big boys, they will tell you that the machines are very capable of burning your house down.



I'm just not understanding all the hostility to a really cool product

I haven't seen any hostility towards the product. Can you show one quote where it's said to be a stupid product? Nope? In fact, most of us said it's a cool product with some innovative features. I'm not sure how many times I have to said it, the problems some of us have with it isn't the product, it's the claims made to sell it.

[Matt McCoy]

I actually hit Vegas all the time. I do a lot of business out there.

Obviously proprietary cartridges are out of the equation. Their hardware isn't built for them. My thinking now shifts to "proprietary materials" where their camera system (the one that is already in place and used to read their specially coded materials) will be used as a means to ensure that only their materials can be used. The system is in place already so it's just a matter of coding. Since they're on the cloud, it would be an easy upgrade.

I actually think it might be a good idea for their lower-end systems. It would help prevent loading materials such as PVC or teflon. It won't help keep the house from burning down but it would be a start.

OK, so we agree that the proprietary cartidges is not a thing.

I also agree with you that coded material packs would be a good idea for someone getting started, which addresses safety concerns by some. Perhaps a parental control feature, like other devices, could be enabled to prevent firing when loaded with dangerous materials. No UV code, no laser.

I believe it has already been mentioned that users will be able to use their own stock and manually adjust settings.

[Matt McCoy]

...I haven't seen any hostility towards the product...

Good morning Scott. You just blew my mind.

[Matt McCoy]

Im just saying if the launch at MakerFaire was this rocky I think all those preorder people will be sorely disappointed.

Hey there Anthony: Apple, Honda, Microsoft (amongst lots others) have tripped on launch. I'm sure they will be OK.

[Scott Shepherd]

Good morning Scott. You just blew my mind.

That's the issue Matt, some of you are seeing this as hostility, when no one's meaning it that way. Show me hostility towards the PRODUCT because I'm not seeing it. If we question any single thing about it, then you immediately call us hostile towards it. It could do horrible things and if we bring it up as something to be concerned about, then we're "off the rails" about it all and hostile. Unless we say that it's the greatest innovation that industry has ever seen and the guy is brilliant, and the company is fantastic, then we get bashed about it.

I'm not sure how to discuss it when no matter what we say, we are shown non-related examples to try and dismiss the concern. If you don't think fire in a laser is something for a consumer level product to deal with, then I don't know how to respond to that. We had a fire less than a year ago that did damage to our machine. If I wasn't standing right there, it would have burned the machine, then the building to the ground. Last week, while watching acrylic cut, I saw a substantial flame build up. I was able to stop it within seconds. Had I been looking the other way for 10-15 seconds, we would have had a very serious fire.

Maybe you haven't experienced a fire yet, I don't know. I have, and it's something that I, and others, are VERY concerned about on a consumer level product. Forgive me for being so "hostile" when I'm concerned about people burning their homes down, with the possibility of kids inside it. Silly me, oh, all the hostility I have built up inside.....

[Doug Griffith]

That's the issue Matt, some of you are seeing this as hostility, when no one's meaning it that way. Show me hostility towards the PRODUCT because I'm not seeing it. If we question any single thing about it, then you immediately call us hostile towards it. It could do horrible things and if we bring it up as something to be concerned about, then we're "off the rails" about it all and hostile. Unless we say that it's the greatest innovation that industry has ever seen and the guy is brilliant, and the company is fantastic, then we get bashed about it.

I'm not sure how to discuss it when no matter what we say, we are shown non-related examples to try and dismiss the concern. If you don't think fire in a laser is something for a consumer level product to deal with, then I don't know how to respond to that. We had a fire less than a year ago that did damage to our machine. If I wasn't standing right there, it would have burned the machine, then the building to the ground. Last week, while watching acrylic cut, I saw a substantial flame build up. I was able to stop it within seconds. Had I been looking the other way for 10-15 seconds, we would have had a very serious fire.

Maybe you haven't experienced a fire yet, I don't know. I have, and it's something that I, and others, are VERY concerned about on a consumer level product. Forgive me for being so "hostile" when I'm concerned about people burning their homes down, with the possibility of kids inside it. Silly me, oh, all the hostility I have built up inside.....

I could be perceived as hostile as well. Just pointing things out and making predictions.

Imagine when a kid tries to cut out hundreds of snowflakes at the same time by cutting an entire pad of paper... then the doorbell rings.

[Matt McCoy]

That's the issue Matt, some of you are seeing this as hostility, when no one's meaning it that way. Show me hostility towards the PRODUCT because I'm not seeing it. If we question any single thing about it, then you immediately call us hostile towards it. It could do horrible things and if we bring it up as something to be concerned about, then we're "off the rails" about it all and hostile. Unless we say that it's the greatest innovation that industry has ever seen and the guy is brilliant, and the company is fantastic, then we get bashed about it.

I'm not sure how to discuss it when no matter what we say, we are shown non-related examples to try and dismiss the concern. If you don't think fire in a laser is something for a consumer level product to deal with, then I don't know how to respond to that. We had a fire less than a year ago that did damage to our machine. If I wasn't standing right there, it would have burned the machine, then the building to the ground. Last week, while watching acrylic cut, I saw a substantial flame build up. I was able to stop it within seconds. Had I been looking the other way for 10-15 seconds, we would have had a very serious fire.

Maybe you haven't experienced a fire yet, I don't know. I have, and it's something that I, and others, are VERY concerned about on a consumer level product. Forgive me for being so "hostile" when I'm concerned about people burning their homes down, with the possibility of kids inside it. Silly me, oh, all the hostility I have built up inside.....


I could be perceived as hostile as well. Just pointing things out and making predictions.

Imagine when a kid tries to cut out hundreds of snowflakes at the same time by cutting an entire pad of paper... then the doorbell rings.

Hey Scott: I'm certain everyone that has money involved in this company/product has safety concerns. Maybe even more than other manufacturers, because they are trying to make this approachable by a wider swath of users that a much more expensive laser excludes. Take a look at Inventables X-Carve project and its Easel software. It's pretty amazing and empowering to people that just want to create stuff. It's still a tool that you will have to take basic precautions with, but you can find them in homes and schools. This was based on Edward Ford's clever Shapeoko project that has been around for a few years. They have changed the landscape of desktop CNC and opened doors for creative types. Glowforge could do the same thing.

By the way, we recently had a fire in our kitchen. The stove has a control board that malfunctioned and broiled the banana bread my wife was baking. The door has an automatic lock that engaged while the fire burned like a fireplace. It was pretty scary. It's a well-known and respected manufacturer. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

It does seem to me like a lot of negativity (curmudgeon-ous) aimed at all involved in this project. If you don't see it or recall from the previous thread, that's fine with me. However, I don't believe I'm alone in my impression.

Doug: I don't think you're hostile, just grumpy. ;)

[Scott Shepherd]

It does seem to me like a lot of negativity (curmudgeon-ous) aimed at all involved in this project. If you don't see it or recall from the previous thread, that's fine with me. However, I don't believe I'm alone in my impression.



So you don't see any of those who are saying negative things about it saying positive things as well? Because I see a LOT of people saying it's pretty cool software and some clever concepts.

There's a HUGE difference in your oven and a laser. Those are the references I keep talking about. They are red herrings. If it didn't have an interlock on it and you could open the lid while it was firing, and we brought it up, you'd say "Well, you can burn your hand on our stove if you aren't careful too". One has nothing to do with the other at all. There's no doubt there's risk all around us. We even had people saying "Steps are dangerous" too. Seriously? You're comparing walking down the steps to a laser in regards to safety?

Report back when someone burns there house down with the thing and tell us how "houses burn down every day", I guess?

You can't burn your house down with a Shapeoko, you can't poison those in the room with a Shapeoko. (I suppose you couldn't, but the probability is far less than a laser)

Time will tell. But it doesn't make us wrong for bringing it up, because it's a VERY serious concern.

[Anthony Scira]

Well when they say a 40 watt laser can cut 3/4 in ply. I mean it is not hostile. We just know better.

There are a lot of awesome features on that machine. Just none of it has even been shown to work real time. I hope it works. And what happens when someone puts their 2000 dollar laptop in there relying on the camera alignment and it screws it up ? It will make all the big high end lasers set the bar higher. Until it does work. Well just call me skeptical.

[Bert Kemp]

I'd almost bet this auto lock feature is what saved your house. I'll go out on a limb and say its a built in safety feature to contain the fire inside the METAL OVEN BOX and to prevent someone from opening it and allowing the fire to spread into the house. Ovens are designed for heat and lots of it, the plastic case of a glowforge is not designed to contain a firem neither are most lasers, but most lasers have a metal engraving area that will help contain the fire, and keep it from spreading.


Hey Scott: I'm certain everyone that has money involved in this company/product has safety concerns. Maybe even more than other manufacturers, because they are trying to make this approachable by a wider swath of users that a much more expensive laser excludes. Take a look at Inventables X-Carve project and its Easel software. It's pretty amazing and empowering to people that just want to create stuff. It's still a tool that you will have to take basic precautions with, but you can find them in homes and schools. This was based on Edward Ford's clever Shapeoko project that has been around for a few years. They have changed the landscape of desktop CNC and opened doors for creative types. Glowforge could do the same thing.

By the way, we recently had a fire in our kitchen. The stove has a control board that malfunctioned and broiled the banana bread my wife was baking. The door has an automatic lock that engaged while the fire burned like a fireplace. It was pretty scary. It's a well-known and respected manufacturer. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

It does seem to me like a lot of negativity (curmudgeon-ous) aimed at all involved in this project. If you don't see it or recall from the previous thread, that's fine with me. However, I don't believe I'm alone in my impression.

Doug: I don't think you're hostile, just grumpy. ;)

[brian saban]

Well they do have a lot of good people that shocked us in the 3d printer world, so I don't rule out what they're claiming "But" what I would worry about the most is the location of that glass tube. It's literally right there when you open the glass lid. The biggest plus is obviously the price, but we have all seen chinese machines in action and with the volume sold the price is feasible. What I think it's going to come down to is support and the speed of the machine in which I was hoping to see at the faire. As far as support it doesn't bode well that they couldn't have at least 1 of 3 operating. I think at the end of the day if all actually works out, i think the american companies will seriously have to adjust their pricing, which I think we all can agree are way out of whack in this day and age. So I stay optimistic but not convinced, and way to experienced to pre order. :)

[Rich Harman]

I'd almost bet this auto lock feature is what saved your house. I'll go out on a limb and say its a built in safety feature to contain the fire inside the METAL OVEN BOX and to prevent someone from opening it and allowing the fire to spread into the house.

Makes sense to me. I wonder what, if any, safety measures are built into the GlowForge.

[Rich Harman]

Well when they say a 40 watt laser can cut 3/4 in ply. I mean it is not hostile. We just know better.

I haven't seen where they claim 3/4" anything - only 1/4" - which is reasonable. Where are they saying it can cut 3/4"?

[Scott Shepherd]

I haven't seen where they claim 3/4" anything - only 1/4" - which is reasonable. Where are they saying it can cut 3/4"?

Post #85 in this thread, Brian saw them at a show and they were saying, in person, that it will cut 3/4".

I haven't seen anyone mention the "See something, take a photo of it and engrave it". Really? I guess copyright doesn't mean anything any more? All of us play by the rules, and we can't go take photos of other people's work, or even pull images off of Goggle without the permission of the creator of the artwork, yet they make it sound like you can just walk all around, take all sorts of photos of other people's work, bring it back, make it, and then sell it.

[Dave Sheldrake]

The other big thing that concerns me is the fire hazard. This machine is made out of plastic

You know what Bert? for all my experience and huge machines that's one BIG thought that never crossed my mind.....Now you have mentioned it...I wonder what the plastic is? many injection moulded plastics aren't particularly nice when they burn to the point that few people in fires die from burning, they usually die for noxious contaminant inhalation or oxygen deprivation.

Very valid point brother and well spotted !

[Rich Harman]

Post #85 in this thread, Brian saw them at a show and they were saying, in person, that it will cut 3/4".

I knew about that, I meant a claim directly from GlowForge. What Brian heard may have been a misunderstanding, either on Brian's part or on the salesperson so we should not get up in arms about it unless we can verify that GlowForge is marketing it as being able to cut 3/4". I only know of them claiming 1/4".

[Jacob John]

Post #85 in this thread, Brian saw them at a show and they were saying, in person, that it will cut 3/4".

I haven't seen anyone mention the "See something, take a photo of it and engrave it". Really? I guess copyright doesn't mean anything any more? All of us play by the rules, and we can't go take photos of other people's work, or even pull images off of Goggle without the permission of the creator of the artwork, yet they make it sound like you can just walk all around, take all sorts of photos of other people's work, bring it back, make it, and then sell it.


This is where I have a HUGE issue, as I create original items to laser and sell. And I certainly don't have the resources to scour the internet looking for unoriginal thieves. I guess anyone can steal another person's work, but that feature, while really cool, seems to open up the floodgates for theft, if it performs as being discussed.

[Walt Langhans]

Well now... this has been an interesting read. I have to say I had no idea about this product until I came across this thread, but upon reading this and checking out this '3D - Laser Printer' here's my 2 cents.

1/ If someone buys this and comes to the creek for advice, you know what's going to happen... They are going to get it. That's what the creek is about. Yeah we might be thinking in the backs of our minds that this wasn't a good purchase, but we are going to help them the best we can.

2/ Reading thru this, yes there have been some negative comments about the machine it's self but if you read them, they are from people who have the real world experience and know what a laser can and can't do and they are only stating the truth. "IF" there has been any hostility in this thread, it been more of how they are marking this machine, and not so much the machine itself. And let's be honest here folks, they are pushing the edge of marketing right up against the wall of misrepresentation.

3/ Regarding #2, and that's the companies choice on how they do business not ours. I just hope they have a good law firm becasue if this product goes out in it's present form and marketed in the way that it has been, I'll bet my business that it won't be long before some one burns their house down with it.

[Dave Sheldrake]

1/ If someone buys this and comes to the creek for advice, you know what's going to happen... They are going to get it. That's what the creek is about. Yeah we might be thinking in the backs of our minds that this wasn't a good purchase, but we are going to help them the best we can.

For once I'd actually have to disagree brother :) sadly my stock answer to helping somebody try and fix one of these is most likely to be "Sell it before you get hurt". Sadly there is a good reason for that, whenever you have to deal with somebody that has made a bad decision you are already fighting Ego....people don't like to feel stupid so will often ask a question with an answer in mind and become hostile when that expected answer isn't supplied. They will then lower any expectation of what the machine can actually do to close on what it is doing rather than inline with the claims of the supplier of what it can do.


"But it's a great machine in general, the tube lasted over 1,000 hours" , they neglect to mention that the supplier told them it would last at least 5,000.

"It is a 40 watt tube, when it fires my homemade power meter that cost $5 says it's 40 watts" , sure most lasers fire well above their operating power level, nature of DC tubes sadly

"The beam is TEM00, I tested it with my Ebay chunk of perspex", unfortunately my $15,000 optical wave front analyser disagree's

"The mirrors are supposed to get really hot,after all a laser beam is hot", really? explain how something that has no effective mass can provide a measure of molecular vibration?, I think you will find a clue in the name mirror, it's supposed to reflect not cook stuff :)

I've been back and forth on Facebook the last few days trying to advise a few promoters of the product that the claims made are just that...claims....in much the same way as I've read claims that 35 watt Chinese K40's will cut 30mm perspex. In effect they will but cycle times will be in days and the quality will be dreadful.

In general there seems to be a view on FB of

"but this machine has a TEM00 tube"
"but this machines casing will be fireproof"
"But this machine will be as safe as a printer"
"I ordered one because I know about lasers don't I"
"you are just jealous because it will be better than your machines" (that one always makes me giggle as I don't sell lasers)

If this actually did what half the claims made by soon to be owners thinks it does I'd buy 50 of them tomorrow but sadly most of it is based on the flawed assumption that everything they are being told is black and white truth when in reality some of the claims can be disproved using simple Optical Physics...but nooooo the physics is all wrong and somebody asking you to give them money is right !

So will I be rushing to help somebody that contrary to significant advice from a lot of people still goes and buys one?...in truth? No...

[Walt Langhans]

For once I'd actually have to disagree brother :) sadly my stock answer to helping somebody try and fix one of these is most likely to be "Sell it before you get hurt".

Dave, Dave, Dave.... You just proved my point :D The creek is here to help, as we always do. I said we would provide advice and in this case that advice is probably the best advice!

[Bert Kemp]

or don't buy it in the first place:rolleyes:

[Kev Williams]

Copyrights & trademarks-- you guys should read this: https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/when-is-unauthorized-use-not-trademark-infringement
--the "functional use" thing is pretty interesting.

Back to "dangerous". In the summer of 2005 I bought a Black and Decker under-cabinet coffee pot. How many of you sit and watch a coffee pot all day? On about its third pot, it caught on fire. Luckily I was nearby, or our boat would've burnt down.

Nothing is REALLY safe...

[Matt McCoy]

I'd almost bet this auto lock feature is what saved your house. I'll go out on a limb and say its a built in safety feature to contain the fire inside the METAL OVEN BOX and to prevent someone from opening it and allowing the fire to spread into the house. Ovens are designed for heat and lots of it, the plastic case of a glowforge is not designed to contain a firem neither are most lasers, but most lasers have a metal engraving area that will help contain the fire, and keep it from spreading.

I switched the breaker off to open the door to extinguish. The temp and flames kept rising.


Makes sense to me. I wonder what, if any, safety measures are built into the GlowForge.

I reckon the same as other lasers, but can't confirm.


For once I'd actually have to disagree brother :) sadly my stock answer to helping somebody try and fix one of these is most likely to be "Sell it before you get hurt". Sadly there is a good reason for that, whenever you have to deal with somebody that has made a bad decision you are already fighting Ego....people don't like to feel stupid so will often ask a question with an answer in mind and become hostile when that expected answer isn't supplied. They will then lower any expectation of what the machine can actually do to close on what it is doing rather than inline with the claims of the supplier of what it can do.

, they neglect to mention that the supplier told them it would last at least 5,000.
, sure most lasers fire well above their operating power level, nature of DC tubes sadly
, unfortunately my $15,000 optical wave front analyser disagree's
, really? explain how something that has no effective mass can provide a measure of molecular vibration?, I think you will find a clue in the name mirror, it's supposed to reflect not cook stuff :)

I've been back and forth on Facebook the last few days trying to advise a few promoters of the product that the claims made are just that...claims....in much the same way as I've read claims that 35 watt Chinese K40's will cut 30mm perspex. In effect they will but cycle times will be in days and the quality will be dreadful.

In general there seems to be a view on FB of

"but this machine has a TEM00 tube"
"but this machines casing will be fireproof"
"But this machine will be as safe as a printer"
"I ordered one because I know about lasers don't I"
"you are just jealous because it will be better than your machines" (that one always makes me giggle as I don't sell lasers)

If this actually did what half the claims made by soon to be owners thinks it does I'd buy 50 of them tomorrow but sadly most of it is based on the flawed assumption that everything they are being told is black and white truth when in reality some of the claims can be disproved using simple Optical Physics...but nooooo the physics is all wrong and somebody asking you to give them money is right !

So will I be rushing to help somebody that contrary to significant advice from a lot of people still goes and buys one?...in truth? No...

I don't recall anyone saying any of those things here Dave, except the TEM00.

[Jason Hilton]

Dave, Dave, Dave.... You just proved my point :D The creek is here to help, as we always do. I said we would provide advice and in this case that advice is probably the best advice!

It's more like really bias advice with no reason. It's interesting to me that this forum fully support purchasing chinese lasers that come provide dubious and unpredictable quality and terrible software experience, but an american made affordable product with a solid and maintained software ecosystem is dubious?

[Dan Hintz]

I leave the Creek for a 3-day weekend and come back to this... :-/

I made my thoughts well known on the prior GF thread, so no point in overly rehashing it here. The handful of people who swear this machine is the bee's knees will never change their tune, so I won't waste any more breath trying to convince otherwise.

My opinion is, and always has been, the marketing used for this machine is scuzzy, approaching criminal in spots. The majority of the hardware itself is little more than a repackaged Chinese K40. The software is needlessly complicated by use of "the cloud" and opens buyers up to the strong possibility of limited/zero control should GF-corporate decide to enable a proprietary materials only stance.

Hobbyists will likely love them for the same reason they loved the K40... inexpensive market entry. Some will struggle through initially and get a working machine that does useful work, others will get frustrated and use it as a boat anchor (same as with the K40).

And let me be clear... I, for one, am NOT worried about losing business to these machines. Predicating the argument that the majority of us complain because we are worried about losing business to hobby machines is false, but it appears some need to believe that predication so their own arguments can be viewed as valid. Have fun with that...

[Bert Kemp]

Jason were do you get this from? Have you ever operated a Chinese Laser? I can run mine all day every day and the engravings are the same quality. Software is not a problem. We support them because there not a plastic toy advertised to be used by kids in the kitchen, and their are decent Chinese machines out there. We don't support the cheap $500 ebay machines, we tell them like it is for the most part, that they have a cheap machine and theres not a lot you can do to make it better.
I'm sure if Glowforge would take a different approach to how their advertising these things, made a metal box to house them in, didn't gear these towards kids, like must be used with parent supervision.Be a little more up front about what it really can and can't do, more of us would be more inclined to support it. Seems you just don't get it. Like Dave said theres an ego thing now , you spent your money and no matter what a 100 people here say, its still gonna be a great machine for you. I hope it is , I really do. Lasers are fun and you can make a lot of cool stuff with them. But they are dangerous if their not built right and watched 100% of the time when cutting stuff. You the Adult can not say to you 10 year old hey watch this I'm going for a beer. If you have read this forum you know it only takes seconds for a fire to start in a laser machine.Good luck with yours I hope its good for you.


It's more like really bias advice with no reason. It's interesting to me that this forum fully support purchasing chinese lasers that come provide dubious and unpredictable quality and terrible software experience, but an american made affordable product with a solid and maintained software ecosystem is dubious?

[Matt McCoy]

...like must be used with parent supervision.Be a little more up front about what it really can and can't do, more of us would be more inclined to support it...



Bert: The website states that under 18 should be used with adult supervision. Same with its capabilities.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I don't recall anyone saying any of those things here Dave, except the TEM00.


In general there seems to be a view on FB of


It's more like really bias advice with no reason.


Laser Quality — TEM00 tube produces smaller spot size and greater power density, increasing engraving precision and cutting speeds

The Transverse Mode of a beam has NO bearing on spot size, it will affect beam quality, it is a measure of Wavefront form NOT beam or final spot size. To date I have never seen or read any report of a glass tube from any manufacturer that produces a single mode TEM00 beam from DC excitation. Coherant, GSI, RECI, EFR to name but a few do not produce single mode beams of TEM00 profile. Hell even mid range lab lasers have a problem producing locked TEM00 beams.

I'd suggest the use of the "Transverse Electromagnetic Mode" title is to impress people that don't understand what it actually means or what it does.


but an american made affordable product with a solid and maintained software ecosystem is dubious?

umm take a guess where the PSU and Tube is made ;)

[Matt McCoy]

I leave the Creek for a 3-day weekend and come back to this... :-/

I made my thoughts well known on the prior GF thread, so no point in overly rehashing it here. The handful of people who swear this machine is the bee's knees will never change their tune, so I won't waste any more breath trying to convince otherwise.

My opinion is, and always has been, the marketing used for this machine is scuzzy, approaching criminal in spots. The majority of the hardware itself is little more than a repackaged Chinese K40. The software is needlessly complicated by use of "the cloud" and opens buyers up to the strong possibility of limited/zero control should GF-corporate decide to enable a proprietary materials only stance.

Hobbyists will likely love them for the same reason they loved the K40... inexpensive market entry. Some will struggle through initially and get a working machine that does useful work, others will get frustrated and use it as a boat anchor (same as with the K40).

And let me be clear... I, for one, am NOT worried about losing business to these machines. Predicating the argument that the majority of us complain because we are worried about losing business to hobby machines is false, but it appears some need to believe that predication so their own arguments can be viewed as valid. Have fun with that...

I believe one of your "thoughts" and "opinion" was that this machine offered nothing new over a K40. I hope you are finally able to back those up with some facts. I would also be interested in how the software is "needlessly" complicated when it appears the opposite.

[Matt McCoy]

The Transverse Mode of a beam has NO bearing on spot size, it will affect beam quality, it is a measure of Wavefront form NOT beam or final spot size. To date I have never seen or read any report of a glass tube from any manufacturer that produces a single mode TEM00 beam from DC excitation. Coherant, GSI, RECI, EFR to name but a few do not produce single mode beams of TEM00 profile. Hell even mid range lab lasers have a problem producing locked TEM00 beams.

I'd suggest the use of the "Transverse Electromagnetic Mode" title is to impress people that don't understand what it actually means or what it does.



umm take a guess where the PSU and Tube is made ;)

Have you contacted Glowforge for clarification on TEM00?

[Matt McCoy]

..I'd suggest the use of the "Transverse Electromagnetic Mode" title is to impress people that don't understand what it actually means or what it does.



umm take a guess where the PSU and Tube is made ;)

What they try to impress people with is the projects you can make with the machine, if you're paying attention to Glowforge's social media. There are pics of interesting pieces with how much it will cost in materials. Its capabilities are what have launched this thing. I don't see where TEM00 is tipping the scale for consumers considering a laser. That said, I am interested in understanding what is meant by it.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Have you contacted Glowforge for clarification on TEM00?

This statement is from their web page


Laser Quality — TEM00 tube produces

I don't see that such needs to be clarified past it contravenes pretty much most of the laws of Optical Laser Physics.

Laser Physics changes by evolution...rarely is it revolution.

[Matt McCoy]

This statement is from their web page

I don't see that such needs to be clarified past it contravenes pretty much most of the laws of Optical Laser Physics.

Laser Physics changes by evolution...rarely is it revolution.

Let's try this. The specs state a TEM00 tube, which you have explained is not possible with a glass tube. Aren't you curious?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Let's try this. The specs state a TEM00 tube, which you have explained is not possible with a glass tube. Aren't you curious?

Not really, if there had been an announcement in the Journal Of Optical Physics or from MIT etc then I'd be interested. There was a massive outcry a couple of years ago when MIT announced they had produced a beam of a narrower diameter than the wavelength produced. As evolution it was like hearing about man's first powered flight or the moon missions first landing.
Given that nothing in the scientific community has suddenly caused such an outcry or has people like Sam Goldwasser or Shaol Ezikiel all in a huffle then there's a pretty good chance it's just hype ;)

The statement "the TEM00 tube", Transverse Mode is a description of a wavefront, not a type of tube, when this revolutionary company who is going to spell the end of expensive lasers cannot even get the use of it's technical claims correct I don't think I'll be asking them pretty much anything anytime soon :)

It's akin to saying "We have designed quantum dinosaurs" (because the word quantum sounds all science like and most people don't realise it's actually a theory of sub atomic physics and nothing more)

[Lee DeRaud]

It's akin to saying "We have designed quantum dinosaurs"..."You know, like a velociraptor, but a lot smaller and a lot faster. A normal quark doesn't stand a chance against it."

[Dave Sheldrake]

"You know, like a velociraptor, but a lot smaller and a lot faster. A normal quark doesn't stand a chance against it."

we need a like button ;)

[Matt McCoy]

Not really, if there had been an announcement in the Journal Of Optical Physics or from MIT etc then I'd be interested. There was a massive outcry a couple of years ago when MIT announced they had produced a beam of a narrower diameter than the wavelength produced. As evolution it was like hearing about man's first powered flight or the moon missions first landing.
Given that nothing in the scientific community has suddenly caused such an outcry or has people like Sam Goldwasser or Shaol Ezikiel all in a huffle then there's a pretty good chance it's just hype ;)

The statement "the TEM00 tube", Transverse Mode is a description of a wavefront, not a type of tube, when this revolutionary company who is going to spell the end of expensive lasers cannot even get the use of it's technical claims correct I don't think I'll be asking them pretty much anything anytime soon :)

It's akin to saying "We have designed quantum dinosaurs" (because the word quantum sounds all science like and most people don't realise it's actually a theory of sub atomic physics and nothing more)

Fair enough.

[Dan Hintz]

I believe one of your "thoughts" and "opinion" was that this machine offered nothing new over a K40. I hope you are finally able to back those up with some facts. I would also be interested in how the software is "needlessly" complicated when it appears the opposite.

I learned early on you have a habit of purposefully acting obtuse, Matt, particularly when analogies are offered, and that's a dog that will no longer hunt. I will simply refer you instead to my initial comment:

The majority of the hardware itself is little more than a repackaged Chinese K40.
Chinese tube, Chinese power supply, etc. etc. The biggest differentiator to most Chinese systems is what color the metal was painted. In this case, the metal is plastic.

You, on the other hand, fail to offer any "facts" to the contrary. What's a logical person to do...

And if you have forgotten my thoughts on the software, I'll point you to the original thread you started on this. I went round and round with you there, so I won't be sucked in a second time here.

[Anthony Scira]

Like I said I am more curious as to who is responsible when the machines camera misplaces the engraving onto someones 2000 laptop.

[matthew knott]

Like I said I am more curious as to who is responsible when the machines camera misplaces the engraving onto someones 2000 laptop.
whoever presses the "GO" button,
Some of the rubbish that's spouted by the CEO on his videos is amazing "Lasers haven't changed since the 80's" really. Cloud software is just hype, there is no cloud, its not real, just a marketing term that means your software is just running on someone else's computer. The camera is neat, we have a fully calibrated camera on our galvo systems, only had for erm about 10 years, accurate to within .1mm so nothing new for us here. This will be sold to people that 'don't know much about lasers' but 'a fool and his money' and all that,
When i first saw this i got all excited and thought maybe someone had invested $$$$ and produced a really smart machine with a ceramic tube and servo motors for a bargin price, a real game changer, but instead its just a el cheapo chinese lasers in a plastic box and some new software.
move along, nothing to see here !!

[Clark Pace]

So if you had to absolutely choose between The Glowforge and the FullSpectrum Entry laser which one would you get. And those were your only choices!!

[Bert Kemp]

you all know how I feel about FSL but they have a machine that they can deliver. does glowforge? its in a metal case. If I had to have a laser and these were the only 2 choices well I guess i'd get the FSL.
Now remember he said absolutely had to have a laser and these were the only 2:( God help me, I don't believe I said that:eek:



So if you had to absolutely choose between The Glowforge and the FullSpectrum Entry laser which one would you get. And those were your only choices!!

[Gary Hair]

There is always a third choice - run away screaming! You couldn't force either of those "lasers" on me...


So if you had to absolutely choose between The Glowforge and the FullSpectrum Entry laser which one would you get. And those were your only choices!!

[Dave Sheldrake]

So if you had to absolutely choose between The Glowforge and the FullSpectrum Entry laser which one would you get. And those were your only choices!!

The FSL if I really had to, it's archaic overhyped ,overpriced junk imho but at least it's metal and I know what I can do with it from a base point.

[Anthony Scira]

whoever presses the "GO" button,


Yes that is true in our case. But in Glowforges case. The marketing clearly shows how easy it is to engrave a laptop perfectly aligned. When that does not happen and the customer calls Glowforge and they say they did exactly like they were shown and the machine messed it up.

There is a difference between a Epilog where there is a learning curve and is used for business. Versus glowforge that is marketed as look at all this stuff you can do and look how easy it is.

[Bert Kemp]

Gary that choice wasn't givin, If It was I would run too


There is always a third choice - run away screaming! You couldn't force either of those "lasers" on me...

[Kev Williams]

This is all too funny.

some quick stats:

Those who know everything there is to know about the new Glowforge laser: 12,944 (just a wild guess ;) )

Those who know everything there is to know about the new Glowforge laser that have actually used one: 0

It may well be a piece of crap. But I don't know. But this sure is entertaining reading! :D

[Matt McCoy]

I learned early on you have a habit of purposefully acting obtuse, Matt, particularly when analogies are offered, and that's a dog that will no longer hunt. I will simply refer you instead to my initial comment:

That's a lot of words (once again) to say that you got nothing. I believe that I have posted only things that are known as factual (with links) or countered goofy speculation that the launch has enlightened. I encourage you to do the same in your posts instead of the analogies that you seem to be so proud of. Perhaps, they are not as clever as you think they are.


Chinese tube, Chinese power supply, etc. etc. The biggest differentiator to most Chinese systems is what color the metal was painted. In this case, the metal is plastic.

I'll still wait for that link to a K40 machine, with the features and tech of the Glowforge, at its price point. I'm patient, but I won't hold my breath.


You, on the other hand, fail to offer any "facts" to the contrary. What's a logical person to do...

What facts would you like? How can I help?


And if you have forgotten my thoughts on the software, I'll point you to the original thread you started on this. I went round and round with you there, so I won't be sucked in a second time here.

Yes, I believe you imagined a scenario of subscription-based software to use the laser. Please remind me of the other unfounded prognostications that you got wrong.

[Dave Sheldrake]

This is all too funny.

some quick stats:

Those who know everything there is to know about the new Glowforge laser: 12,944 (just a wild guess ;) )

Those who know everything there is to know about the new Glowforge laser that have actually used one: 0

It may well be a piece of crap. But I don't know. But this sure is entertaining reading! :D

I don't know anything about the machines Kev but given that some of their claims can be shown to be absolute tosh that leads me to think that more than just the one's we know are tosh maybe also. Simple cost over claim :) if it really is as good and does everything that is claimed then it wouldn't be $2,000.

Be a bit like me trying to sell you a 355 GTS Ferrari for $500 brand new.....it's either stolen or it's not a Ferrari ;)

[Jason Hilton]

I think this thread went off the rails. They haven't shipped yet and every assumption is failure and the death of unsupervised children using "overly complicated" software... Yeash.

Lots of assumptions that software features won't work ("first iPad that doesn't line up")... You do know that optical position tracking can keep a quadcopter perfectly positioned, you think it's really that hard to position a laser head and rotate an image to align correctly?

Lots of anger at the marketing. This company has investments from some very heavy hitters in the VC world, do you think they werent asking about safety before investing millions of dollars? There is one most important step in selling a consumer product: 1: BUILD A GOOD PRODUCT. It's very clear to all of you why glowforge is bad, but the people who want this product want it for very different reasons than you do. This product fills a huge need for users who want to make cool stuff and can't afford 20k or more to do it, are intimidated by hard to use software, or don't have any intention of starting a big businesss.

Lots of assumptions about the cloud (which according to some of you isn't a "real thing"). You do know that most of the largest companies in the world run nearly entirely cloud-based? How many times has you laser computer broken or gone down with a software update or virus? Mismatched or conflicting DLLs? Machine got old and now it's a long time to process and send a file to your machine? You don't really think that "the Google" is a single computer that you connect to do you?

Lots of fear of the unknown. Maybe before making declarations because "you know" you should wait and see? Because sawmill creek has always been welcoming of new users, and you can expect many new glowforge users looking for insight. It'd be pretty sad if fear and product prejudice turned this community into a haven of curmudgeons screaming "y'all youngsters ain't know nuthin' bout no laserin'! Get off my lawn!"

[Lee DeRaud]

They haven't shipped yet and every assumption is failure...Except of course for the people who are assuming that everything will work out fine and we'll all walk together into a rosy Glowforge future. The part that amazes me is that people who already own perfectly serviceable lasers and are using them successfully, are oohing and aahing about an as-yet nonexistent product that is pretty much irrelevant to their needs...and then get upset when anyone calls them on their wide-eyed gullibility.

[Dave Sheldrake]

You do know that most of the largest companies in the world run nearly entirely cloud-based?

Very true, I believe Facebooks data center servers are some of the biggest...

The companies using "cloud" services also happen to own the servers they run on.


Lots of fear of the unknown.

Not fear at all, just annoyance that some of the claims made break fundamental laws that have been in place and tested for decades.


This product fills a huge need for users who want to make cool stuff and can't afford 20k or more to do it, are intimidated by hard to use software, or don't have any intention of starting a big businesss.

Much like the lovely Lady who asked me on Facebook yesterday what this Glowforge will cut and "can it laser in colour", not the ladies fault at all and yes a cause of some private mirth initially but after thinking about it this is somebody that is IN the target market Glowforge are aiming at and believes it is just a case of plug in,switch on = end product.
These are the kind of people that will make a mistake...mistakes with something running at considerable kV and with a beam that we have no blink reflex to that can blind in fractions of a second are usually serious.


There is one most important step in selling a consumer product: 1: BUILD A GOOD PRODUCT.

Just the opposite, you build a product that will sell at the lowest manufacturing cost and the highest possible retail.


do you think they werent asking about safety before investing millions of dollars?

I would suggest the amount VW invested in circumventing emission data was considerably more.

[Jason Hilton]

Very true, I believe Facebooks data center servers are some of the biggest...

The companies using "cloud" services also happen to own the servers they run on.


That's not true at all and the fact that you think so tells me you don't know what you're talking about. Tens of thousands of companies run on cloud services provided by oracle, Microsoft, Google, etc. Hell sawmill creek almost certainly runs on cloud redundant servers with CDN services (and if they don't they should, saves tons of money).




Not fear at all, just annoyance that some of the claims made break fundamental laws that have been in place and tested for decades.


More like you are reading far too much into a single tech spec and 1 sentence response to an interview question...




Just the opposite, you build a product that will sell at the lowest manufacturing cost and the highest possible retail.


Spoken like a man who's never built a product.

[Gary Hair]

I'm going to suggest to the moderators that this thread be locked. It's turned into nothing more than bickering and serves no useful purpose to continue.

[Lee DeRaud]

... believes it is just a case of plug in, switch on = end product.Even if the Glowforge does absolutely everything it's claimed to be capable of, perfectly, every time, that just ain't gonna happen.

I'm reminded of several heated conversations I had with scrollsaw people years ago, who thought using a laser was "cheating", by creating products automatically. I pointed out that they were, in effect, claiming that the creative part of their process was the mindless feeding of wood through a saw blade following printed designs. The fact that, in a lot of cases, they were stealing those designs didn't help their case any.

[Lee DeRaud]

Copyrights & trademarks-- you guys should read this: https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/when-is-unauthorized-use-not-trademark-infringement
--the "functional use" thing is pretty interesting.Erm...maybe not. Consider this quote:

Want to make and sell sports jerseys with your favorite team's insignia emblazoned on them? Functional—proves the wearers are fans of the team. No infringement.The key phrase is "proves the wearers are fans of the team". But it's not the buyers/wearers of the jerseys that have infringed: it's the makers/sellers. They have to prove that making/selling the jerseys is an expression of their love for the team (as opposed to making money), which will be very hard to prove if for example they're making/selling jerseys for all 32 NFL teams.
Further:
It's almost impossible to imagine these results—the case has yet to be followed by name or in spirit by any other court, and hasn't even been cited by its own court in any subsequent case yet.I'm going to file that under "not gonna happen", at least with regard to manufacture and sale of trademarked items. What it may do is establish a clear "personal-use" exemption, which is effectively all it did in the case in question. Disney/Harley/etc will certainly claim that once the item appears in public (e.g. wearing the Cowboys jersey you printed in your basement to a game), that is no longer personal use...and they'll probably win.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm going to suggest to the moderators that this thread be locked. It's turned into nothing more than bickering and serves no useful purpose to continue.

Probably a good time for that Gary. If we need to reopen it, we can.