What is your experience with "euro-machine" customer service?

[Alan Hick]

The "euro machines" : Martin, Format 4, Felder, Hammer, Minimax, Agazzani, etc., tend to be expensive. And for many if not all of them a buyer has to essentially custom order whatever machine he's buying. The machine is then built, shipped, and delivered at some later date. And I think this sets the expectation that, for the price premium, things would go swimmingly thereafter. But sometimes this is not the case. And then there are 3 possibilities:
1. The problem is so bad that the machine needs to be replaced.
2. The problem is something that can be "fixed" over the phone by talking to a technician and learning what to do.
3. The problem needs an onsite visit from a factory trained technician.

For those who have "higher end" machines and have had to deal with customer service after the sale, what has been your experience? Was the process of getting help easy, or difficult? Fast or slow? Was the manual any help?
If you've owned your machines for a long time (say 10 years or more) and needed assistance initially, and again recently, have things gotten better, or worse? If you needed onsite tech support, how did that work?

For instance, with Felder, it doesn't matter if the machine is brand new, or years old. If a technician has to come to your shop, you get to pay for his travel time--charged at $65.00/hr, airfare, and the hourly fee charged in the shop, which right now is $95.00/hr. They will try to arrange for the technician to visit other shops in the area during that trip, and thus split the travel costs, but if nobody else needs service, it's all on you. Maybe this is common in the industry, I don't know.

I've read good reviews and bad reviews about customer service on just about every manufacturer out there. But there aren't that many of them, and of those there aren't many that are current--say within the last couple years. I'm not really interested in the machine reputation, so much, as that just ends up being a Ford vs Chevy argument. I'm only interested in customer service experiences. I know I stipulated the "Euro-machines" but if someone wants to weigh in on Northfield customer service, or another "high-end" manufacturer that isn't in europe, that's okay. Thanks.

[Erik Loza]

Alan, I've worked for two of the players you mentioned and will give you my thoughts.

First, you need to clarify which machines we are talking about. Any Martin, machine, for example, will automatically include a tech to set it up. You can't set up one of those yourself. This would be the case for any machine, regardless of brand, that has electronics. You would not have to deal with most of your concerns because part of the price you pay will include dealer install, service, and support. Now, regarding Minimax (and some SCM) as well as some of those other brands, the price you pay generally DOES NOT include setup or install, unless you specifically pay for that service. For example, most owners will never need a tech to set up or even to service a bandsaw. It's a simple machine that does not warrant that level of mfr. support. Here are how I personally handle the specific issues you are asking about:

1.) "The problem is so bad that the machine needs to be replaced". This is very rare but does happen and is almost always the result of freight damage. Minor freight damage, ordinarily I will direct SCM's parts department to ship out the needed parts and the customer can just re-fit them, himself. The only time I would replace an entire machine is if the damage was catastrophic or if there were some issue that just made more sense from a monetary perspective, to have the customer put the machine back on the pallet and have me ship him a new one. But that is very rare.

2.) The problem is something that can be "fixed" over the phone by talking to a technician and learning what to do. This is the most common scenario and that is exactly what how I handle it. In the vast majority of cases, this is all that is needed. It is assumed that the owner will have a willingness to roll his sleeves up and help solve the issue.

3.) The problem needs an onsite visit from a factory trained technician. Again, very rare. The more complicated the machine, the higher the chance and it almost always is the electronics.

The labor rate you mentioned for travel is fair and is normal in the industry. I will be the first to say that the one area any of the mfrs. could benefit from is more tech support staff. That is an industry-wide situation. You can never have enough techs or service guys.

The best advice I can give you (or anyone) who is buying Euro machinery is that you need to be willing to do some work on your end and be prepared to act outside your comfort zone. Be that wrangling machines from the curbside to your shop, troubleshooting electrics yourself, being persistent on the phone with tech support, or perhaps paying to have the tech handle it all for you. This is industrial machinery, not shoes from Zappos. Once that truck shows up, it's yours. The only customers customers I've ever had that were totally dissatisfied (and there aren't many) were ones who, the moment something went askew of their plans, took the approach of, "I paid THIS much, so shouldn't have to lift a finger", or started issuing threats and ultimatums right off the bat. That's setting yourself up for unhappiness. In other words, you will need to be involved at possibly a number of different levels if an issue does come up.

This is blunt talk but I hope it helps. Best of luck with your research.

Erik

[Rich Enders]

Alan,

I am on my second Euro Combo machine. A Euroshop purchased from Old World Machinery in the late 90's, and a CU300 Classic purchased from MiniMax in 2007. I sold the Euroshop to a model maker when I moved to Arizona. The only problem with the Euroshop was rust due to my location near the ocean. For that problem Old World came out and de-rusted the whole machine, and taught me how to maintain it.

After about a year a motor starter switch failed on the CU300. Tech support at MiniMax walked me step by step through the diagnostics on the phone. Once convinced what the problem was they sent me the replacement components no charge, next day. I recently replaced the drive belts on the J/P with assistance from the MM chat site, but I have had no other need for assistance.

The manuals that came with both the machines are mostly a joke. Maybe a 1-5 on a scale of 10.

[Alan Hick]

And...........we're back. Some of you may notice what's missing.

Thank you Erik, Rich, And John. John, that's quite a story and a lot of information. Exactly what I was hoping for--the BUYERS' experience, good or bad. I have a hypothesis that I'm hoping to share, but it will depend on how many participants weigh in with their tales of woe or tales of bliss.

[Erik Loza]

John Hudson: For the record, "commisioning" is also available for any Minimax machine as well. Most folks don't go for it, due to the added cost, but it's an option. Also, just based on my experience, most owners want to own adjustment tools and I have yet to see any full combo machine that arrived, totally dialed in. I'm your sales rep. Call me any time you need support or help. offer good for the lifetime of your machine. I sense there is nothing I might be able to do to make you a happy owner but my door is always open.

Alan, I don't know what's missing but the one piece of advice I will give to anyone who is thinking about a Euro machine is "Ask a lot of questions". And I don't mean specs-type questions. Questions like, "If there's damage, what do I do? What level of support should I be expected to do, myself? What should my expectation for it or finish be? Does cosmetic damage affect functonality?". I personally wish some customers would ask more questions. Then, we understand their expectations and that's when the customer has the chance to be most satisfied. Glad this thread is back up.

Erik

[Bill Adamsen]

Most of these machines can be maintained with standard bearings, extrusions, belts, brakes, etc. As long as the documentation is available you should be able to keep it running and even modify or fabricate parts. Really, is it that different from trying to keep an Oliver, Fay & Egan, Yates, Greenlee or Wysong tool running? (Well, less electronics perhaps).

[Alan Hick]

Bill,
What you said is true. But I'm asking about customer service experiences. If you don't believe in customer service, and think that people should buy a machine only if they can fix everything on it, including getting on an engine lathe or milling machine and fabricating replacements for broken parts, that's great. But that only espouses an opinion--essentially reiterating your signature line. it doesn't answer or pertain to the question I asked. And the documentation for these machines is notoriously bad, and typically printed in German or Italian without enough pictures or schematic diagrams to be of any help. Thanks anyway.

[peter gagliardi]

My experience with my Martin machines from a customer service standpoint has been very good to excellent. It's true, they do bring it in and set it up, though most of the time there is little for them to do. They make the final wire hookup, and airline if need be, shim and level. The machine comes pretty much dialed right in. Any, and I mean any time I call them, on my new stuff, or my 45 year old stuff, they are polite and helpful, as much as they can be- they don't retain a lot of info on the old stuff. But, they will call or email Germany to get whatever info they can.
On my SCM sander, the times I have called, I have gotten cooperative and helpful info each time.

[Todd Willhoit]

Alan,
Which Euro machines do you own? How does your Euro machine customer service experience compare to your experience for similar price/performance industrial U.S.Asian machines?

Customer service requirements for my combo machine have been minimal, and the support experience with Minimax was excellent.

[David Kumm]

I'm mainly a used guy and like to do my own thing, but I have had good luck with Pete at SCM. Keep in mind that SCM makes a bunch of machines and changes then every few years so there are literally hundreds of versions out there. Not likely that even the tech guys will have a handle on all of them. You get some basic ideas but must be prepared to do some of your own pinpointing and thinking. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

I have one European made machine that I bought new. I didn't have any problems, but in the USA you don't deal with the manufacturer for this brand, you deal with the importer. I haven't experienced their customer service directly, but what I've seen second hand has been outstanding on their part.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I've purchased 4 Hammer items in the last 10 years.

I first purchased an A3-31 jointer/planer which arrived in perfect condition, they dropped it off in my garage and I moved it into my basement. I didn't have any issues with it.

I then purchased a B3 Winner, this one was custom ordered to have all the features I wanted, once again dropped off in my garage, I moved it into the basement myself. This one was missing a bag of parts for the shaper guard, Felder provided me with a new bag of parts promptly.

I purchased a stock feeder, which somehow missed the Canadian electrical approval process, I phoned Felder, they advised me to cut the cord off of it, and exchanged it for another one.

Last item, I purchased a second A3-31 as I had given my first one to my brother. No issues with it.

As indicated in another post, Felder will try to combine trips to reduce your costs, they did that for me on all my deliveries.

I have spoken to customers who had warranty service from Felder and were very happy with the service.

Admittedly I have an advantage, I live in Toronto and there is a Felder factory dealership here, not a reseller, but a Felder company location...........Regards, Rod.

P.S. When I purchased a General tablesaw it had a problem, General sent a tech to my house at no cost to rectify the issue. Just thought I would add that as a North American company comparison.

[Scott DelPorte]

A few years ago I placed an order for a MM20. When it finally arrived at the freight terminal, it turned out they had shipped a MM24 by accident. I cant really remember, but I think I had ordered a demo machine and they shipped it directly from a show and mixed it up somehow. MiniMax caught the mistake before it arrived at my shop, and I think it was Erik who called and basically said I could either take the MM24 at no additional cost, or I could refuse it, and they would ship it back and send me a MM20 like I had ordered. This was a great deal for me since I had high enough ceilings and enough floorspace to house the larger machine, so I gladly accepted the MM24. When it arrived the crate was damaged a little, but everything looked to be fine so I signed off on the shipment. When I set it up, I looked at the table and there was about a .030" step in the table surface right where the slot for the blade was. My immediate reaction was that it was bent in transit, and I should ask them to send out a new one that was flat.

I called MiniMax to see if I could send the table back. They explained it was probably fine, and even though it looked pretty far from flat, I could use the four mounting bolts to adjust table flatness. They said if it wouldn't work, they would exchange it, but to please give it a good try. It took a little while to fiddle with it, but to my surprise, I was able to dial it in and get it nice and flat, and it cuts great. I have never had to adjust it since. No regrets. It is a great machine, and I wish every manufacturer would make mistakes and send me upgrades by accident.

[Rod Sheridan]

That was real win/win situation for you Scott................Regards, Rod.

[Adrian Anguiano]

John, I think having the tools have perfect alignment out the box is a little extreme. I have Jet, Powermatic, Rikon, Grizzly, and a lot of other smaller brands. Never has a machine arrived perfectly square, or aligned. They all required shimming or adjustments. Now if they cannot be adjusted square that is a problem, but they should all be able to be adjusted perfect. Once adjusted normally they stay perfect with checking once a season. When the tool comes they look "pretty" but after 2 yrs of use. Glue drips, water from wood moisture, accidental scrapes and hits, stain or finish sprays, the tools will not be perfect cosmetically anymore and its not worth the crying when you buy them that they are perfect. Most send a can a paint.

[David Kumm]

I think you have to take anectotal opinions regarding customer service with a grain of salt. Consistently really bad is easy to identify, but anything else is difficult to rate. If there is lots of evidence of great customer service, it is only available if there is lots of need for that service. Lots of need doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy. Great service and mediocre product is no thrill. Most customer service stories relate to everyone's specific instance, who they happened to talk to, and how they spin the story when we hear about it. Other than universally awful, I'm not sure we can learn enough factual info to base a purchase decision. I buy figuring I'll fix my own stuff and any help from the company is like found money. Dave

[ian maybury]

I'm in a small market on the fringes of Europe, so my experience isn't necessarily representative.

My expectations though were largely derived from positive sentiment on US forums and the sales blurb, so having paid out the price of a small car it came as something of a shock to find that two of my three machines from a well known Euro supplier of 'quality' light professional and higher end stuff required ground up set ups to get them to the point where they were usable. One needed heavy reworking (as in metal removed) to fix out of flat tables. The third was very close to being right as received. The catalogue and website were blamed for a spec issue which was never resolved.

The good news overall was that apart from the single case of the tables it was possible to dial in everything to perform very well. The bad was that the issues didn't as a result of delays caused by illness and related come to light until they were just out of warranty, and the factory despite being roped in at senior level just wasn't interested in helping. It was DIY all the way.

It seems likely that at least some of the Euro distribution companies in the US may put their product through an additional screening before delivery - if only because of the distances involved, and the potentially ruinous cost of frequent field fixes. Not to mention a well connected consumer culture that's at times probably far less accepting of even minor issues. At others far more prepared to work issues than is the case here.

:) I've given the history been following the topic closely for around five years now on forums, but to this day haven't been able to precisely figure out what the reality of the US situation with Euro (and other) woodworking machinery is.

There's so many conflicting voices, attitudes and expectations. There's a tendency in some quarters to presume 'it's Euro, so it must be good'. (??) There's lots that report problem free results. The odd person comes on forums and raises hell in circumstances where there clearly are significant and very real problems. Some encounter problems, but just quietly sort them out themselves - you only hear if it's something requiring service input, or afterwards as they explain what they have done. Lots more take the 'its mine so it must be good' tack - who knows what their reality is. There's a faction that (judging by the 'it's woodworking not engineering' type comments made) seem almost not to notice as long as it makes sawdust - or at least to rationalise that they must be doing something wrong if it's not producing the results they want. etc etc...

It's a pretty safe bet though that the general ex-factory quality of woodworking machinery (at the level most of us buy anyway) while varying a bit between between makers is in mass consumer market terms (where perfect quality is presumed, and even minor issues lead to recalls etc) pretty patchy. Especially where set up and alignments are concerned. It's seems clear too that when field problems do emerge that the price point/business reality is such that even the more service oriented importers can't afford to throw service engineers at them...

[David Zaret]

i have two martin machines, and have needed some minor customer service. the guys out east have been terrific - they answer the phone when you call, they get answers, send parts if need be... and are great to deal with. compared to other customer service experiences i've had (outside of lee valley), martin is at the top.

[Michael Koons]

Since the OP asked for as many replies as possible, I'll chime in.

I only have experience with one machine but that will change within a month. My experience was also generally positive. I only had one minor issue where the rip fence on my slider was marred during shipment. Mostly cosmetic but a bother. The manufacturer offered for me to send it back but they also offered me a 12" rip blade if I just wanted to keep the damaged fence. I was impressed with the flexibility and creativeness.

When I complete my next purchase next month, I will report and document the experience to the group.

[Susumu Mori]

I have Hammer A331 and Felder 510 for more than a year. Then B3 for a month.
A331 and B3 had no issue whatsoever. They were well calibrated and no adjustment needed, except for the height of the outfeed table of A331, which was set lower (or higher, I forget) intentionally and needed to be adjusted before use as clearly stated in the manual.
The B3 has so many moving parts but so far every thing has been spooky accurate. No dents, mars. They were in pristine conditions. So, I couldn't test Hammer/Felder customer services on these two machines.

The FB510 bandsaw was a bit different story. Upon arrival, the motor fan housing had a dent and interfered with the fan. They sent a replacement quickly.
Then the motor started to give a cranking noise. Minor, intermittent noise, but they sent a tech to replace the motor. It took a while to get the replacement kit from Europe but I could use the saw anyway during the wait.

As I mentioned in another thread, currently I'm a bit bothered by a high-frequency noise and vibration of the FB510, which seem to come from the driving belt. This is a bit of boarder line between a legitimate complain and whining. So, I contacted them to just get their opinion or suggestions few days ago. They responded immediately and promised to look into the issue.

So, so far, I must say, Felder/Hammer is doing very well in the customer service. I think I was an early adopter of the newly designed FB510 and got some glitches, maybe MM16/20 are more matured products, not sure.

[Jim Becker]

I have received excellent service and support from Minimax over the years. Yes, I've done any maintenance troubleshooting and labor myself, but any time I've asked for advise, help and parts assistance it was a smooth process.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Proud owner of a MiniMax Combo here. My take is that these machines are so well engineered that stuff rarely goes wrong. That's not to say they can be broken, most likely when transported.

I am always impressed with SCM and Grizzly due to their participation here at SMC.

[Gregory Stahl]

If your looking for the best customer service post purchase, I don't think anyone will be able to compare to Stiles. People are available 24/7 and almost any part can be overnighted anywhere. I called once for my wide belt and the tech talked me through a software issue--my fault--no charge. I bought an Altendorf F45 that showed up with only metric measurements. They got me the correct inserts in less than 5 business days from Germany. Stiles is trying to get into small shops. They have more affordable tools from asia in their Ironwood brand. I don't have any experience with these, but they look well made and very heavy compared to other asian imports. Can't forget--Stiles has technicians all over the country if it comes to the point of having to get one onsite.

Stiles gave me a tour of their customer service area. It looks like an air traffic controller terminal or something similar. Monitors overhead and on the walls showing their performance of handling customer issues. The parts organization is unbelievable--automated controllers grabbing parts from all over and shipping them out right away. Stiles said only SCMI comes close to them--SCMI being a bit smaller in parts capacity.

I owned a Felder k915 slider for several years. I had an issue with the scoring motor cutting out. I had great service from their support people, and I bought the machine second-hand from a bank after the original purchaser could not pay for. I found the problem myself and repaired--poor solder joints in the scoring motor contactor.

I have an SCMI shaper, jointer, and two minimax 24" bandsaws all purchased new. All arrive perfect and have never had any trouble. Called Parts Pronto for parts on my old SCMI wide belt--had them available in stock and were very helpful.

I guess to sum it up, my favorite companies to deal with are Stiles and SCMI/Minimax. I feel most comfortable plunking down cash to these two companies based on my experiences.

Best,
Greg Stahl

[Wayne Fuder]

I bought a MM16 band saw several years ago now and had no issues with it. A year later I purchased a MM FS 350 jointer/planer. It arrived missing a couple of small parts and MM, based at that time in Austin, promptly shipped those parts to me no questions asked. A year ago I went to IWF looking at sliding table saws. I had a chance to visit with Eric Loza and Sam Blasco at the SCMI booth. Both very knowledgeable and friendly people. Erik did a good job of follow up contacts without being high pressure. I did end up buying a used SCMI saw rather than new from Erik. It needed two parts that I purchased from parts pronto. Their parts dept is very helpful and parts arrived in a couple of days. In all I have very good experiences with MM/SCMI.

[peter gagliardi]

If your looking for the best customer service post purchase, I don't think anyone will be able to compare to Stiles. People are available 24/7 and almost any part can be overnighted anywhere. I called once for my wide belt and the tech talked me through a software issue--my fault--no charge. I bought an Altendorf F45 that showed up with only metric measurements. They got me the correct inserts in less than 5 business days from Germany. Stiles is trying to get into small shops. They have more affordable tools from asia in their Ironwood brand. I don't have any experience with these, but they look well made and very heavy compared to other asian imports. Can't forget--Stiles has technicians all over the country if it comes to the point of having to get one onsite.

Stiles gave me a tour of their customer service area. It looks like an air traffic controller terminal or something similar. Monitors overhead and on the walls showing their performance of handling customer issues. The parts organization is unbelievable--automated controllers grabbing parts from all over and shipping them out right away. Stiles said only SCMI comes close to them--SCMI being a bit smaller in parts capacity.

I owned a Felder k915 slider for several years. I had an issue with the scoring motor cutting out. I had great service from their support people, and I bought the machine second-hand from a bank after the original purchaser could not pay for. I found the problem myself and repaired--poor solder joints in the scoring motor contactor.

I have an SCMI shaper, jointer, and two minimax 24" bandsaws all purchased new. All arrive perfect and have never had any trouble. Called Parts Pronto for parts on my old SCMI wide belt--had them available in stock and were very helpful.

I guess to sum it up, my favorite companies to deal with are Stiles and SCMI/Minimax. I feel most comfortable plunking down cash to these two companies based on my experiences.

Best,
Greg Stahl
Greg, I have a friend who has about a 6 year old Altendorf, who would beg to differ. Once warranty was over, he was told he could speak with a tech once they ran his credit card, and it was "x dollars per hour".
I think even with same manufacturer, people's experience can be vastly different.

I almost bought an Altendorf saw simply for the fact that someone could help 24/7, but two things changed my mind.
1. At the time they did not have a dual tilt slider like Martin- makes life SO much easier.
2. Their salesman paid me a visit and actually insulted me by telling me that I didn't know my business because I was buying a high end panel saw instead of a CNC router, which is "what I really needed"! He apparently knew my business better than me in about a 5 minute conversation we had prior to hearing that! I've been in business for almost 30 years now, and I don't pretend to know even what my colleagues businesses are!

I have had technical issues with some of my high end electronic machines, and it is quite frustrating when it goes down at 7,8, or 9 pm and there's nobody to talk to! Worse still on weekends!

[mreza Salav]

I have two European machines, one is a MM FS350 J/P combo and the other is a Griggio 24" bandsaw. I bought both used, although the bandsaw was never used (never put a blade on even). I have been happy with both so far. One issue I have had with the MM J/P was the start switch which would not work sometimes, I had to open it up and fiddle with it. Don't know what the real reason was and never called their service department.
I have contacted SCM group to try source out a mortising attachment for my (now out of production) J/P and they were helpful in finding out a current model that would fit on my machine and getting me a price.

[Gregory Stahl]

Peter,

Sorry to hear about your friend's experience. Did he buy from Stiles? I have had stiles out to my shop after warranties expired just to see how the machines were working for me. Maybe I benefit from being close to their headquarters with many people in the field in my region.

Stiles precharges for support if you call off hours or on weekends. The fee would be fine with me if i needed help on a Saturday night or Sunday afternoon. I called once on Sunday and decided I could wait until Monday.

Greg

[J.R. Rutter]

I get good service from SCM, despite the fact that I bought my equipment used. They have schematics available to help with electrical issues, and stock a fair amount of common wear parts. Phone support has been pretty consistent. The only time I had a long wait was for an VFD board that had been discontinued. They found a workaround using a current production board, brake resistor, enclosure, and a transformer, which eventually (5-6 weeks) arrived with wiring instructions for the changeover. To put it into perspective, I had a slightly longer wait to get a new 10 HP motor for a Grizzly saw that had been discontinued after the two motor shops in town passed on rewinding it. I only mention that for perspective, not as a complaint. I'm glad that I was able to get replacement parts in both cases.