Prepping my new Veritas PM-V11 chisels

[Christopher Shaw]

Hey, new guy here. I'm getting back into working with real wood after several years of just using plywood and MDF to build stuff like speaker boxes. My first project is going to be a new coffee table made from some curly cherry I've had sitting for years. I'm also interested in making boxes from some other figured and exotic wood I've got stashed.

I'm planning to incorporate a few dovetails into the table so I ordered a set of the nice Veritas chisels yesterday and bought the Veritas 14 tooth dovetail saw. Which brings me to my question.

One of the reasons I chose these chisels is that they aren't supposed to require much work at all to be ready for use. I'll start by lapping the backs, of course, to be sure they really are perfectly flat. I had some Sorby chisels before along with some lower end Japanese chisels and I got pretty decent results using scary sharp with the first gen Veritas guide. But I would like to avoid the sandpaper this time.

I've got a Veritas MK II guide that I've never used, so right now I'm thinking about just ordering some diamond paste and using a scrap piece of MDF to get these chisels into working shape. If that sounds like a reasonable way to start, what grit should I order? Will a single grit do the job or will I want to progress through more than one?

Finally, will the method I use to initially prepare the chisels also work to keep them sharp as I use them or do I need to go ahead and order something that will cut a little faster? I don't expect to be changing the 25/30 degree bevel they will have to start or the micro bevel angle.

Thanks a bunch for any help.

Chris

[Jim Koepke]

Christopher, Welcome to the Creek. Your location isn't indicated in you profile. Where are you located?

Can't comment on much other than you will likely do more to take the backs of the chisels out of flat than make them better than what Veritas does to insure a flat back.

I would not expect MDF to be as flat as a piece of iron or granite.

Just my 321774.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

"I'll start by lapping the backs, of course, to be sure they really are perfectly flat."

Not with the Veritas chisels or blades. Don't try it, you'll only make it worse.

Those chisels are sharp enough when you receive them but you can hone them with the finest stone (8000 or 12000) if so desired.

I have cut dovetails in many projects and have not found the diamond paste a deal breaker. The steel and angle matter more than anything else if you're talking about keeping the edge when chopping. If you have a set of Veritas chisels (PMV11?), use them and see how they work for you before looking for spending money on anything else to keep them sharp. My Veritas PMV11 blades and chisels stand up to oak, hard maple and pine all well without using diamond paste or stropping as a standard practice.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Don't need to lap the backs - just polish the rear of the bevel. If you have a 8000 stone, use that. Hone the bevel. Beyond this, you are set to go!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Christopher Shaw]

Christopher, Welcome to the Creek. Your location isn't indicated in you profile. Where are you located?

Can't comment on much other than you will likely do more to take the backs of the chisels out of flat than make them better than what Veritas does to insure a flat back.

I would not expect MDF to be as flat as a piece of iron or granite.

Just my 321774.

jtk


Thanks for the welcome. I'm a little South of Nashville and just updated my profile to say so.

[glenn bradley]

First off, WELCOME! Secondly, as stated, these are not garage sale chisels you are restoring. These are high quality, properly prepared tools. As noted in the paperwork that comes with mine "the faces of the chisels are factory lapped to be flat within 0.0005"." You can definitely hone them to a greater degree if you desire but, leave the backs alone. If they are not flat, that is a defect and Lee Valley will replace them.

[Christopher Shaw]

"I'll start by lapping the backs, of course, to be sure they really are perfectly flat."

Not with the Veritas chisels or blades. Don't try it, you'll only make it worse.

Those chisels are sharp enough when you receive them but you can hone them with the finest stone (8000 or 12000) if so desired.

I have cut dovetails in many projects and have not found the diamond paste a deal breaker. The steel and angle matter more than anything else if you're talking about keeping the edge when chopping. If you have a set of Veritas chisels (PMV11?), use them and see how they work for you before looking for spending money on anything else to keep them sharp. My Veritas PMV11 blades and chisels stand up to oak, hard maple and pine all well without using diamond paste or stropping as a standard practice.

Simon

Thanks but I'm not understanding what you do to keep yours sharp. Are you saying you don't sharpen them?

[Christopher Shaw]

Can't comment on much other than you will likely do more to take the backs of the chisels out of flat than make them better than what Veritas does to insure a flat back.



Don't need to lap the backs - just polish the rear of the bevel. If you have a 8000 stone, use that. Hone the bevel. Beyond this, you are set to go!


First off, WELCOME! Secondly, as stated, these are not garage sale chisels you are restoring. These are high quality, properly prepared tools. As noted in the paperwork that comes with mine "the faces of the chisels are factory lapped to be flat within 0.0005"." You can definitely hone them to a greater degree if you desire but, leave the backs alone. If they are not flat, that is a defect and Lee Valley will replace them.

OK, I shouldn't have called what I plan to do lapping. That's what I've always called anything where I have the bottom of the blade on a flat surface but I get that it implies using an aggressive grit to actually remove material. I should have said polish rather than lap.

Sorry 'bout the confusion I created on that.

[Simon MacGowen]

My sharpening regime is basic but effective: three waterstones from 1000x to 4000x to 8000x (sometimes 12000x). I sharpen often (if you freehand, that's 10 - 15sec. work) instead of waiting till the edge dulls too much. Full sharpening happens only when the micro bevel is too large. I stick to the simple method for consistency as well as efficiency, meaning I can and will sharpen as often as I can. Once you have the habit of sharpening, it is not a daunting or a time-consuming process. And by using a sharp edge, you save yourself numerous headaches that come your way when using a dull tool -- I learned the hard way when I started, thinking it was my techniques and skills that brought out the nasty results.

Simon

[John Kananis]

You really shouldn't have much to do at all with those right out of the box.

As far as the paste, the kit from Gramercy ( toolsforworkingwood.com ) is pretty awesome - comes in 45 micron (very coarse for lapping, etc), 15 micron and 1/2 micron (this is the only paste I'd use on those for a mirror finish) - don't worry about the large gaps between the grits, diamond cuts much much faster than any waterstone I've used. I really don't use my waterstones much any more after making the switch to the paste. Just an FYI, I've tried the oil-based paste and like the water-based better - also, a little goes a very long way with the paste, you can also use the 1/2 micron to strop with.

[Christopher Shaw]

My sharpening regime is basic but effective: three waterstones from 1000x to 4000x to 8000x (sometimes 12000x). I sharpen often (if you freehand, that's 10 - 15sec. work) instead of waiting till the edge dulls too much. Full sharpening happens only when the micro bevel is too large. I stick to the simple method for consistency as well as efficiency, meaning I can and will sharpen as often as I can. Once you have the habit of sharpening, it is not a daunting or a time-consuming process. And by using a sharp edge, you save yourself numerous headaches that come your way when using a dull tool -- I learned the hard way when I started, thinking it was my techniques and skills that brought out the nasty results.

Simon

OK, I figured I was misinterpreting what you said. I fear freehand sharpening. Another reason I kinda splurged on these expensive chisels is that I'm very dependent on my sharpening jig. It takes time for me to setup the jig so I want to start with the sharpest edge I can get and maximize the time the edge works well between having to setup and sharpen.

Chris

[Christopher Shaw]

You really shouldn't have much to do at all with those right out of the box.

As far as the paste, the kit from Gramercy ( toolsforworkingwood.com ) is pretty awesome - comes in 45 micron (very coarse for lapping, etc), 15 micron and 1/2 micron (this is the only paste I'd use on those for a mirror finish) - don't worry about the large gaps between the grits, diamond cuts much much faster than any waterstone I've used. I really don't use my waterstones much any more after making the switch to the paste. Just an FYI, I've tried the oil-based paste and like the water-based better - also, a little goes a very long way with the paste, you can also use the 1/2 micron to strop with.

What do you use for a flat base? I never would have thought to use MDF until I saw it suggested by Lee Valley a couple days ago when looking at their diamond paste.

[Mike Cherry]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm a little South of Nashville and just updated my profile to say so.
Completely off topic but I grew up in south Nashville. Parents still live there.

Veritas as makes a nice chisel. Hone it and remove the burr and all should be well.

[Christopher Shaw]

Completely off topic but I grew up in south Nashville. Parents still live there.

Veritas as makes a nice chisel. Hone it and remove the burr and all should be well.

OK. I actually live about 40 minutes down I 65 from Nashville. Grew up just outside Huntsville then spent almost 20 years in Texas.

[John Kananis]

What do you use for a flat base? I never would have thought to use MDF until I saw it suggested by Lee Valley a couple days ago when looking at their diamond paste.

3/4 MDF on a flat surface works just fine.

[Robert Engel]

That flatness is probably for real but I'm basing that on LV's excellent reputation.
If you want to check it you can, and when done properly you're not going to ruin the chisels.

IMO you can't beat a diamond lapping plate.

For initial sharpening, I would start on my 800 grit diamond then go to the 1250 and proceed to 4000/8000 on the waterstones.
For touch ups I can usually start with the 1250.
I would start with the honing guide so you don't mess up the bevel, but eventually you should at least try to learn free hand sharpening skills.

There's other ways of doing it, but this works for me and it pretty fast.

[Jim Koepke]

For initial sharpening, I would start on my 800 grit diamond then go to the 1250 and proceed to 4000/8000 on the waterstones.

Maybe something is eluding me. My understanding is these come from Lee Valley with a flat back and a blade that is ready to go for many folks.

Why not just a few swipes on one's finest stone to a perfect edge?

Is there some reason to remove the factory bevel and start over?

My dulled blades usually do not get honed on an 800 grit stone, diamond or otherwise.

jtk

[Nick Stokes]

I am new to all of this. I would expect to need to sharpen these chisels after a weekend of use regardless... But there is no way I would take them out of the box and go straight to a stone... I would most certainly try them straight from the box... I don't trust that my limited experience can improve the edge on a $400 set of chisels...

Now after that first weekend, or after using the 1/2 to chop a mortise or whatever... then yes, I would sharpen up using my best strategies.

[Christopher Shaw]

Maybe something is eluding me. My understanding is these come from Lee Valley with a flat back and a blade that is ready to go for many folks.

Why not just a few swipes on one's finest stone to a perfect edge?

Is there some reason to remove the factory bevel and start over?

My dulled blades usually do not get honed on an 800 grit stone, diamond or otherwise.

jtk


My plan right now is to use whatever diamond paste equals about 8000 grit on them when they get here. I just want to put a polish on the backs, which should also prove to me that they really are ultra flat out of the box. Not that I doubt they are going to be but it should be pretty obvious.

The set I bought is supposed to come with a 30 degree primary bevel on the 1/4" and 3/8" inch chisels and a 25 degree primary bevel on the 1/2", 3/4" and 1" chisels. I see no reason to change that for the way I plan to use them.

I plan to set them up in my MK II at the stock bevels, then turn the little micro bevel dial so I can polish just the little secondary bevel. I'm not going to do anything at all to the surface of the primary bevel.

The ongoing sharpening of these chisels is where I'm still not so sure. I don't know if I just need to hit the micro bevel occasionally with the 8000 grit diamond paste or if I should also by some paste that's just a bit more aggressive.

Chris

[David Eisenhauer]

Embrace the sharpening process (whichever one you choose) and keep the sharpening "station" or setup, etc laid out and in place whenever you are doing extensive chisel work. Start the learning process as soon as possible so that you will very soon treat sharpening as just one of the steps in creating whatever you are working on with chisels. Working with sharp chisels is infinitely better than using even partially dulled chisels. One sharpening video put out by Lie Nielsen shows a sharpening station setup with three stones ("coarse", "medium", "fine") mounted, including stops installed for rapidly adjusting the position of a chisel in a jig. I'm not sure how the Veritas jig works, but something along that line is commonly used by folks that do lots of hand tool work. The sharpening station/setup need not take up much space (less than 18" square?), especially if some of the accompanying sharpening materials or supplies are not all required for immediate use. With a sharpening station in place, it should only be a matter of a very few minutes (if that much), to halt your work, touch up the edge, then return to work. I tend to perform the more extensive complete edge rebuild (as opposed to "on the fly" edge touchups) either at the beginning or end of the work day and try then to address all of the tools in the set so that I don't have to interrupt the work flow as much during a typical workday.

[David Eisenhauer]

I just looked at my post to see if it made sense and then read your latest. Yes, at some point, you will need to completely rebuild the edge (what you call "ongoing sharpening") of your chisels, so you will need to purchase the complete range (coarse, medium fine) of sharpening "grits" or whatever they are called in whatever sharpening system you choose to work up a completely dulled edge to the final micro bevel edge you are looking for. This holds true for freehand sharpening or jig use. You should not need the coarse or medium grits when you first try out your new chisels, but will need them sometime after starting more extensive use of the chisels. I am not a diamond paste user, but there are folks here that are and I imagine a search in the archives will turn up a diamond paste users' particular hands on process of how they are using paste to create and maintain chisel and plane edges.

[Christopher Shaw]

I am new to all of this. I would expect to need to sharpen these chisels after a weekend of use regardless... But there is no way I would take them out of the box and go straight to a stone... I would most certainly try them straight from the box... I don't trust that my limited experience can improve the edge on a $400 set of chisels...

Now after that first weekend, or after using the 1/2 to chop a mortise or whatever... then yes, I would sharpen up using my best strategies.

I get what you're saying. But I trust myself not to screw up anything about the chisels when I get them. I've flattened, sharpened and micro beveled chisels ranging from cheap Marples to some Sorby and more expensive Japanese chisels. I used to have a pretty complete collection of Veritas and Lie Nielson hand planes. I tuned them all to where they were making nice little curly shavings. I did all of it using scary sharp, starting with 400 grit wet dry paper and progressing up to 4000 grit. Ended up selling the entire collection of planes when I finally admitted to myself that I was collecting them and really didn't have much desire to use them.

Shortly after that I convinced myself my nice chisels and dovetail saw had been sitting idle for too many years and sold them too. I don't regret selling the hand planes. Heck I got nearly as much for them as I had paid new. But I'm kicking myself pretty hard right now for selling off the chisels and Lie Nielson saw. Fortunately I still have most of the small stuff like marking gauges, saddle squares, 1/6 and 1/8 dovetail layout thingies and scrapers with handle.

So, anyway, I know I can keep these PM-V11 chisels flat and true, I just don't know anything about sharpening this new metal formula they're made from.

Chris

[Christopher Shaw]

Got my chisels a few days ago. Now I need to get some cheap wood and do some practicing on dovetails. I was getting pretty decent at them, years ago, but don't know if I can even hold the saw straight today.

And for your viewing pleasure. You wouldn't really know from just looking at them that they are such high quality chisels. No cool little wavy lines from metal folding or figured wood handles. But I know you guys can appreciate them.

Chris

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i361/digidoc100/Tools/DovetailSetup_zpseyzk8xew.jpg

[Kent Adams]

Very nice! I had a thread earlier today about buying one of those chisels. Let me know how well they perform for you and if they were sharp straight from LV.

[Christopher Shaw]

Very nice! I had a thread earlier today about buying one of those chisels. Let me know how well they perform for you and if they were sharp straight from LV.

They're pretty darn sharp but not shaving sharp. I still need to order some diamond paste to give them a final honing.