Pilot License

[Kent Adams]

Does anyone here have a private pilot license? I'm thinking of getting one and then going for a commercial license. I'm curious as to what other's experience has been.

[charlie knighton]

the greatest percentages of accidents are with small plans......mostly fatal.......wind, weather, and natures fury have a much greater effect on small planes.......I was a passenger in small plane when I was young, after being scared badly and getting back to school, have never flown in another small plane, I do fly commercial full size planes

good luck

[Dave Richards]

I have had my private pilot's license since the mid-80s. Getting it was a great learning experience and I much prefer flying light aircraft to being packed like sardines into a big aluminum tube.

It can be dangerous but that danger can be managed. It's the same as working in the shop. A few moments of inattention or a couple of bad decisions can have a huge impact on the outcome.

[Kent Adams]

the greatest percentages of accidents are with small plans......mostly fatal.......wind, weather, and natures fury have a much greater effect on small planes.......I was a passenger in small plane when I was young, after being scared badly and getting back to school, have never flown in another small plane, I do fly commercial full size planes

good luck

I witnessed a fatal single prop crash as a child, but I'm not really concerned.

[Kent Adams]

Dave, I'm thinking of a career change at 47. I wouldn't be able to replace my current income, even as a captain for a major airline, but its been a lifelong dream to pilot an aircraft. I don't have any interest in being a major airline pilot (glorified bus driver). I'm more interested in the fractional jet pilot opportunities (low paying but offer a more relaxed lifestyle).

[julian abram]

I got a private Pilot License back in the 1980's, just few regionally, never pursued instrument rating or commercial. The expense, liability and excitement threshold was a little more than I was cut out for, so I stopped flying after a few years. You will need deep pockets for this career. In my opinion, military training is the best way to pursue commercial aviation.

[Kent Adams]

I got a private Pilot License back in the 1980's, just few regionally, never pursued instrument rating or commercial. The expense, liability and excitement threshold was a little more than I was cut out for, so I stopped flying after a few years. You will need deep pockets for this career. In my opinion, military training is the best way to pursue commercial aviation.

Julian, when you say deep pockets, what do you mean? For instance, for a commercial license what would you anticipate the total costs to be?

[Alan Hick]

Wow. As someone else said, I hope you have deep pockets, and I hope you're healthy--no cardiovascular issues, etc. I'm assuming you've looked at the requirements for certification.
Ground school. Private pilot's license--VFR. Class III medical. Then Instrument Rating. Then Commercial License and Class II medical. I suppose you could get the Commercial license without the IFR, but what would be the point? The CL has a base requirement, last I looked, of 250 hours of flight time. So you're looking at a lot of time and a lot of money to get where you're going. Then, if you ultimately decide you need an Airline Transport Certificate, you'll need a Class I medical, thousands of hours of flight time, etc. phew.....
I haven't done it myself but I have a good friend who has. He loves flying. With the time and money commitment, you'd have to LOVE it.

[Kent Adams]

Alan, I don't see a Medical 1 being an issue, nor the 250 hours of flight time. No one has told me what "deep pockets" mean. I assume that its less than $100k. Flight time can be gathered through instructional training and as long as I break even, I don't think that is a huge obstacle.

[Alan Hick]

As I said, my friend loves it. He doesn't even do it to make a living, he just loves to fly. So, as long as you know what you're getting into, I certainly wouldn't be the one to dissuade you. Good luck with the career change--sounds exciting.

[Dave Richards]

Kent, it isn't cheap but if you've got 100K to put toward it, you should get a long way. 250 hours is not really very many hours so plan on several times that. You might investigate getting a CFI rating after you've got the commercial ticket so you can build hours. How do you intend to get the training? Are you going to go to the local aerodrome and get your training there? Or maybe go to one of the well known schools that train people to drive jets? Have you looked into those costs?

At 47 you're starting late and you need to figure it'll take you a few years to accumulate the hours and experience. You probably won't be getting paid to fly before you're 52. Take that into consideration.

If you want to learn to fly, go for it. You won't regret it. Just be realistic about where it'll lead.

[Kent Adams]

Thanks Dave for the feedback. We have a 141 school where I'm at, but my thought is to go to a school that has access to the full range of licenses, such as http://flightsafetyacademy.com/ . Aviation is actually a thriving industry where I am. Timco, Fed Ex and Honda Jet being three of the larger employers in my region. I have no illusion that I'm ever going to earn in aviation what I earn now as a commercial banker ($300k +). Rather, I'm looking for a lifestyle change. I'm tired of putting in 70+ hours a week. I don't have any need or want to fly Commercial other than smaller, perhaps Gulfstream/Citation type of craft on a contract basis. If deep pockets means less than $100k, that is doable for me. We also have a plenty of charter flight companies near me. I'm looking for a more relaxed schedule. What got me to thinking about this is I have a customer that has a pilot for a King Air. He perhaps works 20 hours a month for $50k/year. I'd like a gig like that.

[John M Wilson]

I just finished reading an excellent book, "Cockpit Confidential" http://www.amazon.com/Cockpit-Confidential-Everything-Questions-Reflections/dp/1402280912 that dealt with a number of topics; the author explained his journey to the cockpit, how much pilots make, etc. in a very entertaining way.

I recommend you pick up a copy... it has a lot of information that will allow you to make an informed choice.

[John Stankus]

At 47 you're starting late and you need to figure it'll take you a few years to accumulate the hours and experience. You probably won't be getting paid to fly before you're 52. Take that into consideration.
d.

Also, check out the FAA mandatory retirement ages for certain commercial ratings. It used to be 60 (it may have been changed to 65 for certain conditions).

John

[julian abram]

Julian, when you say deep pockets, what do you mean? For instance, for a commercial license what would you anticipate the total costs to be?
Kent, I've been out of the aviation circles for too many years to give good info on costs for a commercial license. I'm sure you can get that info from many other sources. You will be starting at ground zero and progressing up the ladder of many licenses and ratings before landing employment piloting business jets. This is not a quick year or two process to progress through the training needed to achieve your goal. Folks tend to think, well I only need 250 hours to attain the license but attaining the license only means you have met the bare minimum requirements. It doesn't mean you are a proficient pilot at that level. You need many of hours of flight experience above the minimum training levels to develop your proficiency. You need some "soiling your pants" situations as the only pilot in the plane to help develop your flight experience. You will not receive this experience with an instructor in the plane with you. My 14 year old daughter has met the requirements for a drivers permit but she is far from being a proficient driver and will need a few years to develop those skills in real world driving situations.
All that being said, Go for it! I noticed in a later post you are a investment banker, so you probably have the time and resources to pursue your dream. I'll be rooting for you and hope to see a report back here in a few years that you have achieved you dream!

[Scott Shepherd]

Kent, my instructor used the hours teaching to get him his hours, and if I recall correctly, it was very much just an hours in the seat game. You needed hours, and you only climbed the ladder by putting seat time in. He graduated from Emory Riddle college, and he was having to teach people like me to get his hours up enough to be able for anyone to even consider hiring him. When they did, it was a pretty low level job in the flight world. Then you just had to do so much time in that mode until anyone would consider you for the next step up. It wasn't like you got the certifications and there were job openings available. You really had to climb the ladder and it was a pretty lengthy process. I would guess you wouldn't even think of going from not flying to flying corporate jets in less than 10 years time, but that's just my personal gut feeling. I might be completely wrong on that, but I do know he was an excellent pilot with a major feather in his cap for where he was educated in flight, and he was still schleping people like me around, trying to keep me from killing myself. I think the day he crossed his milestone in hours for that next step up the ladder, he quit. He moved into flying cargo in a smaller plane, that wasn't a jet.

You can do it, it's just a long, slow process.

[Jerome Stanek]

You also need your multi engine rating and a cargo rating and a jet rating. all take many more hours than the commercial rating

[Ole Anderson]

My dad had about 250 hours when he gave it up, I never had an interest. He flipped a 175 on landing at a WY hunting ranch, everyone walked away. He later got his twin engine ticket.

I have a friend that is an ATC instructor, another that now flies for Alaska Air, started while in HS working toward that goal.

Another friends daughter went to school to fly, she now flies commercial airliners and husband flies jumbos for UPS. Common thread: they all went to school to get their commercial tickets.

Go go it!!!

[mike holden]

Back in the 70's I looked into flying. At that time the manufacturers listed the expected cost per hour for each of their models. They probably still do. If I recall correctly, a Piper Archer II cost about $150 per hour of flight time. This was the cost of owning the plane, insurance, amortization, gas, oil, maintenance and such.
This was just the cost of the plane. Instruction, pilot accessories (calculator, charts etc.), personal insurance, were extra.
I decided that I could learn to fly if I did nothing else for entertainment.
If I win the lottery, I would consider it again.
But it is VERY expensive, a good flight school can give you very precise numbers for what you want to do in today's dollars.
Go get info from the experts, and then decide.
Mike
Oh, and expect to get mailings from the AOPA for at least a year after talking to them (grin)

[Randy Rizzo]

Wow! It sounds like you've got the finances to make this happen, you've still got a fairly long road ahead of you, and considering you're starting at 47, I doubt you'll ever get into a position that's going to recoup your investment. I don't know whether or not that is a consideration. I was the Aviation Manager for a major Chicago corporate flight department from, 1979-2010. Before that, Demo Captain/Flight Instructor with Gates Learjet. When looking for flight personnel, 5,000 hrs was a minimum requirement, along with jet ratings, ATP, etc., and that was for entry level First Officer. Most of the other operators had similar requirements. I know that fractional operators (Netjets, Flexjets, FBO's, etc.) don't have as stringent a requirement, but you're still going to have to acquire the bare minimum requirements along the way, certificates progressing from Private Pilot, Commercial, Instrument, Multi Engine, Airline Transport Rating, and at least a type rating in a jet of some sort. Re, your friend's pilot working 20 hours a month? I assume you mean he logs 20 hours of flight time a month. He probably "worked" 5-6 times that in preflight, post flight, layover, overnights, training, etc. Our pilots flying Falcon 900's were logging 4-500 a year. We averaged 200-250 duty days a year, most of it in chunks of 3-5 days, or 2-3 weeks if the trip were international. Our guys were on call pretty much 24/7. Time off for special occasions, was a rarity. I can't tell you the number of birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, we were gone. We had 10 pilots to crew 3 aircraft. The only time assured off was when all 3 aircraft were out of the barn and you weren't on one. Of course we usually took that time to schedule a weeks worth of recurrent training for you, which we did twice a year. It sounds like you haven't started any flying yet, give it a shot. It's not for everybody, just because you think you'll like it does not necessarily mean you'll have the skill to do it.

[charlie knighton]

I witnessed a fatal single prop crash as a child, but I'm not really concerned.

I have only really felt and understood the loss in the later part of my life......planning and experiencing your lifes plan is very fulfilling.....good luck in your new endeavor

[Keith Westfall]

As a retired Commercial Helicopter pilot of 35 years, 7 years in maintenance before that, (fixed wing and helicopters) and a private pilot licence before all of that, I'm thinking it will be a steep hard climb. Can you do it? Of course you can. But having the money to do it is just a small part of it.

NOBODY will 'want' you for a number of years (more than a few!) and not only hours (poorest judge of a persons skill and ability) but EXPERIENCE. And that takes a while.

You sound like you are a successful business banker, but that doesn't mean you will be a good aviation employee. It is a different world...

I thoroughly enjoyed my years in the industry, but when I decided I was done, I was done, (and don't miss it!) Sounds a lot like you in the banking world.

If you have the desire and the resources to do it, do it. It is an experience like no other. And to those who say (and believe me I heard it many times) that it unsafe and dangerous, it is unbelievably more safer than you driving to work everyday. You just need to make good decisions (weather, loads, other conditions etc) on the job, because the choices are more critical and sometimes not so many chances for a do-over.

At 47, you are competing with a lot of younger people with sharper and quicker reflects, in a fast changing environment.

But you can learn to fly, and you can get through the many endorsements to build up your qualifications, but the sad thing is, is that potential employers are probably not willing to invest in your short career. It costs a lot to keep crews current and trained, and you will be lacking the many years f experience that they would prefer to have.

But good luck! I wish you well and hope it works out for you.

klw

ps- if a flight school tells you that 'all' of their pilots get hired, and that they have the best connections, just remember: their ONLY ROLE is to teach you how to fly and take your money while doing it. A lot of them don't have their own operations that hire, and the sad reality is, they cannot guarantee your future...

Keep us posted.

[Martin Shupe]

You also need your multi engine rating and a cargo rating and a jet rating. all take many more hours than the commercial rating

Cargo rating?

[Kent Adams]

Randy, you're a wealth of knowledge on this it seems. You make a lot of good points and observations. You're right, that 20 hours was probably a lot more as it was just flight time I was quoting. 5,000 hours seems like a whole lot, were you guys hiring retired airline pilots or those with extensive military experience? My understanding is that the regional airline pilots often have far fewer than 5,000 flight hours when they get their first captain appointment. Am I wrong on that? These guys (regionals) make so little money, at those hours I'm not sure it would be worth it.

[Kent Adams]

As a retired Commercial Helicopter pilot of 35 years, 7 years in maintenance before that, (fixed wing and helicopters) and a private pilot licence before all of that, I'm thinking it will be a steep hard climb. Can you do it? Of course you can. But having the money to do it is just a small part of it.

NOBODY will 'want' you for a number of years (more than a few!) and not only hours (poorest judge of a persons skill and ability) but EXPERIENCE. And that takes a while.

You sound like you are a successful business banker, but that doesn't mean you will be a good aviation employee. It is a different world...

I thoroughly enjoyed my years in the industry, but when I decided I was done, I was done, (and don't miss it!) Sounds a lot like you in the banking world.

If you have the desire and the resources to do it, do it. It is an experience like no other. And to those who say (and believe me I heard it many times) that it unsafe and dangerous, it is unbelievably more safer than you driving to work everyday. You just need to make good decisions (weather, loads, other conditions etc) on the job, because the choices are more critical and sometimes not so many chances for a do-over.

At 47, you are competing with a lot of younger people with sharper and quicker reflects, in a fast changing environment.

But you can learn to fly, and you can get through the many endorsements to build up your qualifications, but the sad thing is, is that potential employers are probably not willing to invest in your short career. It costs a lot to keep crews current and trained, and you will be lacking the many years f experience that they would prefer to have.

But good luck! I wish you well and hope it works out for you.

klw

ps- if a flight school tells you that 'all' of their pilots get hired, and that they have the best connections, just remember: their ONLY ROLE is to teach you how to fly and take your money while doing it. A lot of them don't have their own operations that hire, and the sad reality is, they cannot guarantee your future...

Keep us posted.

Thanks for the advice Keith. "but the sad thing is, is that potential employers are probably not willing to invest in your short career. It costs a lot to keep crews current and trained, and you will be lacking the many years f experience that they would prefer to have." That was a point I completely overlooked. I have a lot of research to do it would seem.

[Dan Hintz]

Sometimes... you just have to do something for yourself. It doesn't matter if you can recoup the money, you just need to do it to keep your sanity.

If you can afford it (financially, personally, etc.), I say go for it...

[Randy Rizzo]

Randy, you're a wealth of knowledge on this it seems. You make a lot of good points and observations. You're right, that 20 hours was probably a lot more as it was just flight time I was quoting. 5,000 hours seems like a whole lot, were you guys hiring retired airline pilots or those with extensive military experience? My understanding is that the regional airline pilots often have far fewer than 5,000 flight hours when they get their first captain appointment. Am I wrong on that? These guys (regionals) make so little money, at those hours I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Kent, you're right, the regionals do take guys with a lot less than 5,000 hrs. (Think about that next time you hop on one of those!) None of my guys were retired airline, all had some sort of previous experience with other corporate operators, and were generally in their late thirties, early forties, and had been flying for quite some time. Two were ex military, but had been in corporate flying with other companies. 5,000 hours, while it may seem a lot, experience wise you're just getting your feet wet! The first couple of thousand hours is just spent acquiring ratings for the majority of guys. I don't think anyone ever flew for the regionals with the thought it would be a lifelong career, rather a stepping stone to build time/experience in hopes of landing a position with a major carrier. You're also correct, the compensation at the regional level is a pittance, I don't know how any of them survive.

i don't want to rain on your parade, but getting to the point where someone will hire you at a living wage is going to take time and perservance. Ask your friends King Air pilot what his career path has been to this point. Odds are he started like most of us, acquired enough flight time/certificates, flight instructed to build more time, finally got a flying job that paid more money, better equipment, and just kept working his way up the ladder. In my case I started flying in 1964 at 24, landing my first corporate gig in 1968. And that position was just a stepping stone, but it was good one. A one pilot operation in a Cessna 401, that became a King Air, that turned into a Lear 25, and ended just as quickly with the Oil Embago in 1973. 3 other jobs, none of substance, until I got a real break with Gates Learjet in 1977. And so it goes!

[Red OLeary]

I got my license 20 years ago and I haven't flown in probably 12! For me it was always a dream when I was a kid to fly so I did it, I think I was 24 when I got my license, but for me it was just a hobby, a damned expensive one, that also wasn't a shared interest with any of my friends, so most of my flying was solo for the $100 hamburger. I happen to also be an A&P for a living, working on business jets and as has been mentioned before a lot of the corporate guys have heaps of experience except for possibly the NetJets crews. But to me corporate flying is starkly boring! At 500' off the ground you engage the auto pilot then try to stay awake until you get to the destination, then you hang out in a flight lounge ALL DAY waiting for "The Man" to get back so you can take him home. I don't mean to dissuade you from your dream, but it is a long road and it to me one of those things where the reality of it is far removed the the "romantic notion" of it. It's not unlike being an airplane mechanic... it sounds really cool but at the end of the day its a lot of "righty tighty, lefty losey" type stuff, it can be really rewarding but it's often just take it apart, put it back together again. :)
All the best to you.

[Randy Rizzo]

I got my license 20 years ago and I haven't flown in probably 12! For me it was always a dream when I was a kid to fly so I did it, I think I was 24 when I got my license, but for me it was just a hobby, a damned expensive one, that also wasn't a shared interest with any of my friends, so most of my flying was solo for the $100 hamburger. I happen to also be an A&P for a living, working on business jets and as has been mentioned before a lot of the corporate guys have heaps of experience except for possibly the NetJets crews. But to me corporate flying is starkly boring! At 500' off the ground you engage the auto pilot then try to stay awake until you get to the destination, then you hang out in a flight lounge ALL DAY waiting for "The Man" to get back so you can take him home. I don't mean to dissuade you from your dream, but it is a long road and it to me one of those things where the reality of it is far removed the the "romantic notion" of it. It's not unlike being an airplane mechanic... it sounds really cool but at the end of the day its a lot of "righty tighty, lefty losey" type stuff, it can be really rewarding but it's often just take it apart, put it back together again. :)
All the best to you.


Starkly boring? Well it can be. Chicago to Teterboro, hang out for 3 days, and then back to Chicago, yeah that was boring. Then there was my last international trip, 2009/2010. Christmas in New Guniea, flew to Bali, Indonesia for New Years. Post flight revealed a cut tire that would have to be changed. Followed by a hydraulic leak discovered changing the tire. On to Beijing day after New Years Day, to arrive in time for the most severe winter storm they've had in 60 years. All the airlines had cancelled flights, we were the only one arriving that afternoon!

Engage the auto pilot at 500'? Sure you can, but I think to a man we all hand flew to and down from cruise altitude, a practice I encouraged. Flying skills deteriorate unless continually practiced, someday that auto pilot/flight director won't be there. I have a theory that has proven to be correct on more than one occasion, "technology will let you down when you need it most". With the technology available in the glass cockpits today one does not need much of an imagination or thought process to have a mental picture of where you are in the flight profile. Take away the gizmos and most of today's crop of aviators are lost. Quite a few years ago with the implementation of flight management systems, glass cockpits etc., I think it was Northwest airlines that did a study, old guys versus new guys. The young troops were whizzes on the keyboards, couldn't fly raw data. For the older guys it was just the opposite.

[Kent Adams]

Starkly boring? Well it can be. Chicago to Teterboro, hang out for 3 days, and then back to Chicago, yeah that was boring. Then there was my last international trip, 2009/2010. Christmas in New Guniea, flew to Bali, Indonesia for New Years. Post flight revealed a cut tire that would have to be changed. Followed by a hydraulic leak discovered changing the tire. On to Beijing day after New Years Day, to arrive in time for the most severe winter storm they've had in 60 years. All the airlines had cancelled flights, we were the only one arriving that afternoon!

Engage the auto pilot at 500'? Sure you can, but I think to a man we all hand flew to and down from cruise altitude, a practice I encouraged. Flying skills deteriorate unless continually practiced, someday that auto pilot/flight director won't be there. I have a theory that has proven to be correct on more than one occasion, "technology will let you down when you need it most". With the technology available in the glass cockpits today one does not need much of an imagination or thought process to have a mental picture of where you are in the flight profile. Take away the gizmos and most of today's crop of aviators are lost. Quite a few years ago with the implementation of flight management systems, glass cockpits etc., I think it was Northwest airlines that did a study, old guys versus new guys. The young troops were whizzes on the keyboards, couldn't fly raw data. For the older guys it was just the opposite.

Randy, I've been looking at Cessna Skylanes (turbo). What type of commercial use would these be good for in your opinion and experience. The pilot of the King Air B200 was formerly a naval pilot. I wonder if it would be more worthwhile, considering my age, to be an independent charter pilot (liability insurance I know is sky high, no pun intended, for this type of business).

[Martin Shupe]

Kent, there a lot of expenses in starting up an independent charter operation. You also have to do 100 hour inspections, which, unless you are an A&P, are costly. You also need enough customers to keep the lights on.

Someone once said the best way to make a million dollars in aviation is to start with two million dollars.

Also, don't ever buy a plane without getting a "pre-buy" inspection from a mechanic that 1) you trust, and 2) has no history with the plane or its current owner.

I sent you a PM, but it doesn't look like you got it, so check your inbox.

[Dennis Peacock]

I LOVE to fly..!!!! I wish I could get my PPL but money is my limiting factor. I have 4.5 hours of flight time in a Cessna 172 and LOVED it. Taking off and landing was no real problem for me as well as just flying around or in a pattern. Maybe one day, I can get my Sport Pilot's License. :)

[Randy Rizzo]

Kent, there a lot of expenses in starting up an independent charter operation. You also have to do 100 hour inspections, which, unless you are an A&P, are costly. You also need enough customers to keep the lights on.

Someone once said the best way to make a million dollars in aviation is to start with two million dollars.

Also, don't ever buy a plane without getting a "pre-buy" inspection from a mechanic that 1) you trust, and 2) has no history with the plane or its current owner.

I sent you a PM, but it doesn't look like you got it, so check your inbox.


Randy, I've been looking at Cessna Skylanes (turbo). What type of commercial use would these be good for in your opinion and experience. The pilot of the King Air B200 was formerly a naval pilot. I wonder if it would be more worthwhile, considering my age, to be an independent charter pilot (liability insurance I know is sky high, no pun intended, for this type of business).



Kent, I've been out of that end of the business for more than 40 years, so I think my opinion on that wouldn't bear much weight. Martin is correct there are a lot of costs is setting up an independent charter operation. You cannot just decide to charter your airplane out for hire without an Air Taxi Commercial Operating Certificate. (ATCO) And the cost to maintain that certificate is enormous. Everything you have related to the maintenance of that aircraft needs documentation. If you're having someone else do the maintenance they also fall under scrutiny. Spares, misc. shop items such as adhesives, you have to damn near be able to document where the raw material came from and the pit it was mined from. Buying a used aircraft, anything with a prescribed overhaul time needs documentation. Time since overhaul/new? If you can't document the time on a given item it would have to be replaced. I'll bet we threw out more seals and gaskets than we used, even though they were in sealed packages, they had expiration dates. As to liability insurance, I doubt with minimum qualifications you could even get insured at any price, but that's a question for an underwriter. There's a lot of questions here that go beyond what can really be answered in an informal chat room setting. You really need to seek the counsel of local authorities, such as your FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and perhaps a company who can set up an ATCO operation for you, it won't be cheap. Take a couple of flight lessons, you might decide this is not for you and everything becomes a moot point, or you will really enjoy it!

[Kent Adams]

Randy, I've been looking at Cessna Skylanes (turbo). What type of commercial use would these be good for in your opinion and experience. The pilot of the King Air B200 was formerly a naval pilot. I wonder if it would be more worthwhile, considering my age, to be an independent charter pilot (liability insurance I know is sky high, no pun intended, for this type of business).



Kent, I've been out of that end of the business for more than 40 years, so I think my opinion on that wouldn't bear much weight. Martin is correct there are a lot of costs is setting up an independent charter operation. You cannot just decide to charter your airplane out for hire without an Air Taxi Commercial Operating Certificate. (ATCO) And the cost to maintain that certificate is enormous. Everything you have related to the maintenance of that aircraft needs documentation. If you're having someone else do the maintenance they also fall under scrutiny. Spares, misc. shop items such as adhesives, you have to damn near be able to document where the raw material came from and the pit it was mined from. Buying a used aircraft, anything with a prescribed overhaul time needs documentation. Time since overhaul/new? If you can't document the time on a given item it would have to be replaced. I'll bet we threw out more seals and gaskets than we used, even though they were in sealed packages, they had expiration dates. As to liability insurance, I doubt with minimum qualifications you could even get insured at any price, but that's a question for an underwriter. There's a lot of questions here that go beyond what can really be answered in an informal chat room setting. You really need to seek the counsel of local authorities, such as your FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and perhaps a company who can set up an ATCO operation for you, it won't be cheap. Take a couple of flight lessons, you might decide this is not for you and everything becomes a moot point, or you will really enjoy it!

Randy, I know you're right on everything here. I used to finance yachts and the rule of thumb was that a yacht has yearly carrying costs of about 10% of the gross cost of the yacht (if new). I would imagine its the same for aircraft. I would have an appraisal done on a plane if they are the same types of appraisals done with yachts. Basically they do a tear down of the engine, electrical and structural aspects in their evaluation. There are numerous charter maintenance facilities where I live they could maintain the aircraft. Lots of questions. It'll be a couple of years before I would even attempt to purchase or pursue something like this. First things first though like you said, learn to fly to see if I even enjoy it.

[Keith Westfall]

Kent,

Go for your licence, get a bit of time and then go for your instructor rating. Although not really exciting (well, at times it can be!) you'll get some hours and experience.

All the stuff talked about to set up a company will apply, but perhaps a flight school would generate a steadier clientele. Never done it so don't know, (and somebody will certainly enlighten us) but there are many different ways to to be involved in flying an airplane.

If nothing else, you can travel to many places in your own plane for the cost of trying to go the airline captain route!

Most of all. have some fun. There is nothing like it...

[Mike Null]

I have always wanted to fly my own plane. I have never been able to afford the training but the desire is still there and I'm 78. Like somebody else said, "if I hit the lottery I might do it".

Before I retired we had a King Air and Cessna Citation which we literally flew the wings off. The pilots were on our payroll and their jobs had to be among the worst in the company--terrible hours, long days and always being available. We had 8 plants scattered from NJ to Iowa to SC plus we frequently flew to Chicago to pick up our largest customers. That's not the kind of work I'd aspire to but it's flying and probably beats commercial work on smaller planes.

[Red OLeary]

Starkly boring? Well it can be. Chicago to Teterboro, hang out for 3 days, and then back to Chicago, yeah that was boring. Then there was my last international trip, 2009/2010. Christmas in New Guniea, flew to Bali, Indonesia for New Years. Post flight revealed a cut tire that would have to be changed. Followed by a hydraulic leak discovered changing the tire. On to Beijing day after New Years Day, to arrive in time for the most severe winter storm they've had in 60 years. All the airlines had cancelled flights, we were the only one arriving that afternoon!

Engage the auto pilot at 500'? Sure you can, but I think to a man we all hand flew to and down from cruise altitude, a practice I encouraged. Flying skills deteriorate unless continually practiced, someday that auto pilot/flight director won't be there. I have a theory that has proven to be correct on more than one occasion, "technology will let you down when you need it most". With the technology available in the glass cockpits today one does not need much of an imagination or thought process to have a mental picture of where you are in the flight profile. Take away the gizmos and most of today's crop of aviators are lost. Quite a few years ago with the implementation of flight management systems, glass cockpits etc., I think it was Northwest airlines that did a study, old guys versus new guys. The young troops were whizzes on the keyboards, couldn't fly raw data. For the older guys it was just the opposite.
Thats just my experience, when I go on a post- C check test flight pilot s, almost to a man, will engage the AP as soon as they can. But I think that by design the to/from business of flying should be boring, it's only when things don't go right that it gets really interesting, and that's when I hope the pilot can step up his game and fly the airplane. I've flown with a lot of crews and experience and skill are all over the board.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm thinking of a career change at 47.I changed careers at the age of 40. I went from retail management into the IT/Computer/Electronics field. I quit working for two years and went back to school.
When I graduated, I had to compete with people half my age for an entry level position.
You're going to be in a very similar position.
At 50, (an approx. age of entry if you start now), you are less than half the man a 25 year old is. You are slower, slower to recover and overall, more "beat up".
That's a hard fact to face, but, it's true.
Desire and dedication can take you a long way, but, in the end you have to be able to push yourself beyond normal physical and mental limits.
It gets discouraging real fast to see some "youngster" outpace you simply because you have more "miles on you" than they do.

Also - you'll need to stand out from the crowd in order to have anyone take notice of your abilities. Not only will you have to be #1, you'll have to be so far beyond #2, you're not even running the same race.
I graduated from the two year tech school w/perfect attendance, a perfect 4.0 GPA and the 2nd highest overall grade percentage (99.8%) in the ~ 20 year history of the school.
I had five job interviews (more like offers) a month prior to graduation........
Three fell through at the interview when I sat down face to face with the interviewer and they saw how old I was.
One paid minimum wage and the other just slightly above. Thankfully, that one also had an excellent ongoing training program.

Sure it's illegal to not hire someone because of their age....just prove it....bear in mind that "You can tell by the look on a person's face they were expecting someone younger to walk into the interview room". - - can't be used as proof.

Anywho good luck if you decide to make the change.

FWIW - I jumped from the IT field 4 years ago when I "retired"., into the home remodeling/house rehab/real estate (rental) field at the tender young age of 59 1/2.

I'm having a ball.....just thought I'd mention that so it doesn't sound all discouraging..
(LOL! Talk about being "mileage challenged" :D, I can't keep pace with my 15 year old grandson humping drywall from the garage to the basement ! "D)(Oh well, who cares, it's fun anyhow!)

[Curt Harms]

ASome insight on costs-

https://atpflightschool.com/programs/

FlightSafety has an academy in Florida for 'ground up' flight training. They (FlightSafety) are the '800 lb. gorilla' of corporate aviation training. I have no insight about the academy but one possible benefit - you'd be indoctrinated in the FlightSafety way of doing things - might make things simpler down the road.

http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/doc/career/documents/Professional%20Pilot%20Program.pdf?v=1

Be cautious about cost estimates from lesser known flight training companies. They quote the absolute minimum requirements. Few people complete the requirements in the minimum required time - it usually takes longer. And yes, age does enter into it. Legally the age 60 - now age 65 - applies only to Pilots-in-Command of part 121 operations (airlines)in the U.S. but some major corporate operators used to use it as well. I don't know the current situation in light of age discrimination lawsuits and legislation.

Also, bear in mind that flying may not be that different from woodworking or any other hobby to business transition. It can be a lot more fun when you're doing something because you want to and not because you have to. Sitting on a deserted airport ramp in the middle of the night in the winter where you have to start the engines every hour or so else they'll be too cold to start is distinctly unglamorous.

[Kent Adams]

ASome insight on costs-

https://atpflightschool.com/programs/

FlightSafety has an academy in Florida for 'ground up' flight training. They (FlightSafety) are the '800 lb. gorilla' of corporate aviation training. I have no insight about the academy but one possible benefit - you'd be indoctrinated in the FlightSafety way of doing things - might make things simpler down the road.

http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/doc/career/documents/Professional%20Pilot%20Program.pdf?v=1

Be cautious about cost estimates from lesser known flight training companies. They quote the absolute minimum requirements. Few people complete the requirements in the minimum required time - it usually takes longer. And yes, age does enter into it. Legally the age 60 - now age 65 - applies only to Pilots-in-Command of part 121 operations (airlines)in the U.S. but some major corporate operators used to use it as well. I don't know the current situation in light of age discrimination lawsuits and legislation.

Also, bear in mind that flying may not be that different from woodworking or any other hobby to business transition. It can be a lot more fun when you're doing something because you want to and not because you have to. Sitting on a deserted airport ramp in the middle of the night in the winter where you have to start the engines every hour or so else they'll be too cold to start is distinctly unglamorous.

180 days from no experience to commercial airline certification? I can't imagine any airline would hire someone with 6 months of experience. However, the costs are interesting and less than I thought. Thanks for the links. I think I've decided to continue to pursue but in a recreational path. Last night I found the 2014 gulfstream pilot salary survey and considering how many hours I would need, beyond certification, and how little they actually pay considering my current employment, it makes little fiscal sense. I do want to fly though, so I can pursue that. I can see though this would be an easy track if I was just coming out of the military with thousands of flight hours already in my "pocket".

[James Gunning]

Kent,

I was surprised at how many pilots and folks with aviation experience we have on the 'Creek. Must be woodworking draws that type. My story is: Paid for my private pilot license, and was trained by an excellent instructor that had flown in the Army Air Corps. I took my check ride just weeks before going to Army flight school. Spent 12+ years on active duty, lastly as a UH-60 IP/IFE. In between, I paid for further fixed wing ratings up to my ATP. Then went to work at Comair. Flew a short time as a First Officer and then 23 years as a Captain until Delta shut us down in 2012, and I retired. The advice you have received here is good with looks into several areas. Starting at age 47 the airlines are out of reach unless a miracle happens-which isn't likely. However, other places in commercial aviation may be open. The issue of age is the biggest barrier you face, time is very much against you at this point. My suggestion is to get your Private, Commercial, and Instrument certificates, and see if you really want to continue. At a minimum you will satisfy your urge to see what flying is about. You will have enough of a look at aviation at that point to make a more informed decision. You could go to Flight Safety, Embry-Riddle, or one of the large part 141 schools, but there are good schools and instructors in other places as well. Most of the big schools are more oriented toward a future airline job. They will prepare you well for flying high performance aircraft, but getting an actual paying job at that level requires a lot of experience which you won't have. The traditional route is to then instruct to gain flight time and experience. That will only take you so far though, because you will generally not be gaining Pilot in Command time in larger, turbine multi-engine aircraft. That is the gold standard and really what you need to get a job flying a jet or large turbo-prop for an airline, company flight department or charter operator. If I can answer more specific questions, please PM me.

[Kent Adams]

Kent,

I was surprised at how many pilots and folks with aviation experience we have on the 'Creek. Must be woodworking draws that type. My story is: Paid for my private pilot license, and was trained by an excellent instructor that had flown in the Army Air Corps. I took my check ride just weeks before going to Army flight school. Spent 12+ years on active duty, lastly as a UH-60 IP/IFE. In between, I paid for further fixed wing ratings up to my ATP. Then went to work at Comair. Flew a short time as a First Officer and then 23 years as a Captain until Delta shut us down in 2012, and I retired. The advice you have received here is good with looks into several areas. Starting at age 47 the airlines are out of reach unless a miracle happens-which isn't likely. However, other places in commercial aviation may be open. The issue of age is the biggest barrier you face, time is very much against you at this point. My suggestion is to get your Private, Commercial, and Instrument certificates, and see if you really want to continue. At a minimum you will satisfy your urge to see what flying is about. You will have enough of a look at aviation at that point to make a more informed decision. You could go to Flight Safety, Embry-Riddle, or one of the large part 141 schools, but there are good schools and instructors in other places as well. Most of the big schools are more oriented toward a future airline job. They will prepare you well for flying high performance aircraft, but getting an actual paying job at that level requires a lot of experience which you won't have. The traditional route is to then instruct to gain flight time and experience. That will only take you so far though, because you will generally not be gaining Pilot in Command time in larger, turbine multi-engine aircraft. That is the gold standard and really what you need to get a job flying a jet or large turbo-prop for an airline, company flight department or charter operator. If I can answer more specific questions, please PM me.

Thanks James for your reply. I'm surprised too at how many aviators are on the creek. You know, when I get on one of the regionals and I see the pilots look like they are in their 20's, it makes me nervous. When I see a fit pilot with gray hair, I feel relaxed. I would think that, at least from perception, my gray hair would be a benefit to the comfort level of passengers. :confused: However, not a chance in the world I would want to start at a regional level, so I think airlines are a no go for me. We have a 141 school in my city and I think I'll take that route for now. Thanks again for your feedback.

[charlie knighton]

GSO is great airport to fly in/out of commercially.......rarely a direct flight, but great ease of coming and going , espeically compared to some of my destinations airports

[Kent Adams]

GSO is great airport to fly in/out of commercially.......rarely a direct flight, but great ease of coming and going , espeically compared to some of my destinations airports

Fed Ex has built a Hub here, but its my understanding that its still no where near operating capacity. There are a number of good maintenance facilities here including Timco, as well as the new Honda Jet manufacturing facility. The local trade schools have set up to pump out mechanics for the growing industry. GSO is in a great central Mid-Atlantic location with a ton of potential.

[Curt Harms]

Thanks James for your reply. I'm surprised too at how many aviators are on the creek. You know, when I get on one of the regionals and I see the pilots look like they are in their 20's, it makes me nervous. When I see a fit pilot with gray hair, I feel relaxed. I would think that, at least from perception, my gray hair would be a benefit to the comfort level of passengers. :confused: However, not a chance in the world I would want to start at a regional level, so I think airlines are a no go for me. We have a 141 school in my city and I think I'll take that route for now. Thanks again for your feedback.

I wouldn't be surprised if that flight school, once you completed your training might want to talk to you about becoming a part time instructor. That's a way to get the first few hundred hours and depending on your personality, can be rewarding if not lucrative. That's the usual route in the civilian world. It can also result in something of a blind-leading-the-blind situation because low time instructors simply don't have the wisdom gained through the years to confer to their students.

[Kent Adams]

Well, this guy says it best. Starting out at my age is a waste, but he goes through the whole process. Great video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJk9Skxyi84