Bandsaw choices: MM16 (aka S400P) or Grizzly G0636x?

[Peter Aeschliman]

I know, another one of these threads. :P

Long story short, I'm trying to decide between an MM16 (now called the S400P) (http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=18&Itemid=35) or a Grizzly G0636x (http://www.grizzly.com/products/17-Ultimate-Bandsaw/G0636X).

The first consideration is price. Although these are up there in the price range, my funds aren't unlimited.

I got a quote a while back from Erik, where it comes out to about $4k with tax and liftgate service. Since I live close to the Grizzly headquarters, I could pick up the G0636x myself. So with tax, that would cost me about $2,700 (plus gas). I like the idea of picking it up myself because of all of the horror stories I hear about freight mishaps. Part of me also likes supporting Grizzly because they're headquartered here in Washington state. Plus, I've heard that it can be harder to get replacement parts for the Italian machines (though I may never need them).

They both have the features and capacities I would like. I will use the bandsaw mostly for resawing for bookmatched veneers/etc. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around a $1,300 difference. I've never seen an MM16 myself, but I've heard nothing but great reviews on here.

I'm struggling with the lack of real user feedback on the Grizzly. Popular Woodworking sung its praises a few years ago. Other than that, I only see a few brief mentions of the machine on various forums, but no in-depth reviews. I have Monday off, so I might head up to Bellingham to take a look at the Grizzly in the flesh.

I know nobody can make this decision for me... My gut is leaning toward the Grizzly. What I would love is to hear from some real owners or users of either machine. One thing I absolutely despise is having to re-adjust the guides on my 14" Jet cast iron machine every time I move the guide post. It's a total pain (getting out the alan wrench, etc). I've read all of the tune up books and tried everything, but no matter what, the guides will not stay in alignment. So I want the guide post to be fully adjustable, to hold its settings, and have no play when locked down.

Any words of wisdom out there??

[ian maybury]

Hi Peter. No experience, so can't help directly.

The 636X certainly got very good reviews when it first came through. I came very close to sourcing a German or alternative UK importer branded version of what looked to be a very similar machine (but perhaps not quite the same - i couldn't get hard information out of either importer) - and in the end bought a little used Agazzani 24in that by incredible luck came my way. The UK market variant has got good reviews on the very few occasions it's been mentioned on forums, but there's probably not very many sold to hobbyists there.

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

I'm quite a ways from you - but I'm aware of a used MM16 that is being offered for sale in the Houston, TX area.

The owner passed away early this year, and his widow is just now starting to liquidate his shop. I've seen the saw, and other than being in need of a cleaning, it appears to be in excellent condition.

Send me a PM if interested.

[Erik Loza]

Peter, as much as I would love to sell everyone an MM16, I know that's not going to happen. In fact, probably more than half the guys who contact me, buy something cheaper. The MM16 is an expensive bandsaw. Not the most expensive of the Euro bandsaws but still, expensive. I do, however, want to explain why they cost what they cost.

1.) Made in Italy. Even though the Dollar is strong against the Euro right now, it's still coming from an EU country and has to conform to all their safety norms for export.
2.) Materials cost: Centauro (who manufactures the MM's for Minimax) puts a lot of steel and iron into these machines. For example, the MM16's flywheels weight about 25lbs. apiece. To the best of my knowledge, there is no other bandsaw, regardless of mfr., that has flywheels anywhere near that. The fence is cast iron, the frame is thick and has lots of reinforcement, and the various component groups have lots of material to them, as well. All that contributes to the cost.
3.) The cost of engineering: "Just making a bandsaw heavy" is not always good enough. The mass needs to be in the right spots and sometime, less is better. Here are two examples from the MM-series. First, the guidepost passes through a cast iron reinforcing block in the upper cabinet, which is itself, bolted though a section of the frame that has an extra steel plate sandwiched in there, for the most strength possible. You need it there. On the other hand, the table tilting unit, which used to be a traditional cast iron trunion unit that is common for bandsaws, got replaced in 2005 by a hinge-like tilting unit that actually weighs less but is stronger and faster to manipulate. I used to do a demo at trade shows where I would stop the MM16 in one revolution by just pressing the footbrake pedal with my fingers. That's possible because the drum on the backside of the lower flywheel of the MM is so large in diameter, along with the shoe pad. There are a number of other engineering features that Centauro puts into these saws that I have not seen in any other bandsaw, which of course, all contribute to the price to the end user.

Is it the right machine for you? Is it worth the price? That's the big decision. I will guarantee you one thing if you buy an MM16, though: You will receive absolutely the most abysmal user's manual ever written.

Best of luck with your search.

Erik

[Peter Aeschliman]

Is it the right machine for you? Is it worth the price? That's the big decision. I will guarantee you one thing if you buy an MM16, though: You will receive absolutely the most abysmal user's manual ever written.

Ha! That made me giggle.

Thanks Erik. The flaw in my decision-making process is that I just don't have enough information. I don't mean information in terms of specs, i mean in terms of experience with the machines in person.

If I were spending this much money on a used car (which, frankly wouldn't get you a whole lot nowadays), I would expect to be able to kick the tires and take it for a test drive. I wish I could do the same with these machines. It's a lot of cash to spend on something sight unseen. So I'm having to base my decision off of what I read online.

Although I've heard a lot of great things about Austin, so maybe I can rationalize a vacation. :)

[Joe Meirhaeghe]

Peter I have a mm16. It is a great machine. It's handled everything I've thrown at it with ease. I've cut walnut logs up to 14" in half with ease with a sharp blade. It has all the power you should ever need.
Mine is a 2006 model. The only problem I've ever had with it was the main switch went out in July of this year.

[Andrew Gold]

Ha! That made me giggle.

Thanks Erik. The flaw in my decision-making process is that I just don't have enough information. I don't mean information in terms of specs, i mean in terms of experience with the machines in person.



Peter,
I think this is what makes shopping for woodworking equipment so difficult, though I don't know of any means to really change things. Even with some real time touching both machines, it's when you've used something for years that I find you can really comment on the quality and value of the machine.

I see a related issue when reading reviews, as in most cases the person writing the review will have limited experience with the machines anyways. As a result, it seems like most user tool reviews either boil down to "I bought a new thing, and it's awesome" or "my new thing came damaged and it sucks"...

I know from my own experience (specifically with bandsaws), each time I've bought a new machine I've thought it was the best and couldn't be better... but when the replacement has come along, I've thought "this new one is the best ever and couldn't be improved upon".

None of this helps you make a choice, sorry about that!

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I love my MM24. Only bandsway I know of that lifts the guides with a chain, rather than a rack and pinion which always get clogged with sawdust. I never have to reset my guides when I have to raise or lower. Go with the MM. You will never regret it.

[Allan Speers]

I think if you can afford an MM16, you'll never regret it.

I think if you can only afford the Grizzly, you'll never regret it.


:)


Oh, and since one of your main tasks is slicing custom veneer, seriously consider the laguna Driftmaster fence. I have one on my Grizzly 21". I've only used it a few times so far, but I'm pretty knocked out. I had the Grizzly cast iron resaw fence before that, which is extremely decent, but cutting veneers on the outside of the blade with the Driftmaster, yes indeed !

I wonder if either minmax or Grizzly would sell you a machine without the stock fence? Maybe Erik would?

last thought: I think Mike Hollingsworth hit upon one of the really important reasons to fork over an extra $1300. Re-adjusting blades is such a royal PITA... I got lucky because my "new" Grizzly 21" stays aligned when I raise & lower the guides, but I know that this is not always the case, and possibly rarely the case.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I don't know anything about the Grizzly saw, but I use a newer MM16 daily at work and I can tell you its built like a tank. I'm honestly not in love with the blade guides, some sort of carter "upgrade", I'd prefer the old euro's personally, but the business end of this machine is all business. And we push it to its upper limits. Rigid frame, and very rigid blade guide arm. Thats critical. You can change guides, you could even change motors, but the blade guide arm is much of the determining factor in performance on a band saw and cant be changed...so as you look at saws check that. Grab it, give it a good shake! I have an older Meber saw and when locked the blade guide arm is rigid like an I beam. The MM16 is the same, its just rock solid. Ive used some asian imports that seem all the cut corners seem to boil down to not so rigid blade guide arm. I used a grizzly 24" and it was very rigid, so I don't mean to suggest that all asian imports are sub par, just that its something you need to check.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Peter,

I started looking for a 16 and was going to get the Agazzani 16, but ended up getting the Agazzani 20 and have never regretted the added size. The upcharge wasn't that significant. Buy once, cry once and smile every time you use it.

Erik, since it is so easy for me to spend Peter's money, what would be the increase for him to go to the 18 or 20? You need not reply here but an email for Peter might give him more to chew on . . . . . .

[Rick Moyer]

Ha! That made me giggle.

Thanks Erik. The flaw in my decision-making process is that I just don't have enough information. I don't mean information in terms of specs, i mean in terms of experience with the machines in person.

If I were spending this much money on a used car (which, frankly wouldn't get you a whole lot nowadays), I would expect to be able to kick the tires and take it for a test drive. I wish I could do the same with these machines. It's a lot of cash to spend on something sight unseen. So I'm having to base my decision off of what I read online.

Although I've heard a lot of great things about Austin, so maybe I can rationalize a vacation. :)

If you go to Grizzly Monday, you may find that they have the 0636 in their demo area, I don't know. Still doesn't let you try a MM to compare but might help some. I've never seen a MM in person so I can't help. The 'better" Grizzly saws I have seen and they seem to me to be pretty stout, but I don't know what I would do in your situation.

[Tim McCarthy]

Hi Peter,

I can only echo what others have said. I've owned a MM16 for almost 10 years now and have never regretted the purchase. It really is a beast of a machine and I mean that in a totally good way!! As someone else eluded to, spend the money and use the heck out of it. Each time you use it the cost per use goes down and eventually (if you live long enough and use it enough) becomes almost zero. Best of luck either way you decide to go!

Tim

[David Ragan]

Love my MM16
Have had some issues with the switch-but now it is ok.

[William Addison]

I have a MM16 and at times I've been pretty critical of several things but not the saw directly. My criticism is probably why Eric Loza is here but he's among the better things that have happened on this forum, I have a lot of respect for what he says. Initially I was very unhappy about the packing which saw parts scattered down my drive way. On the upside, they all got here. The irritating thing was I that I spent about an hour trying to install the lower bracket for the guides only to find the manual was wrong because it was for an older version of the saw. My one experience with tech support was abysmal, the tech couldn't speak English and finally admitted he knew nothing about the saw. Others have had a better experience. Parts are out of sight, $50 for a tire and the same for each of the six pieces of upper and lower guides. I put Laguna's on mine and like them. The saw itself is excellent.

i have a friend with the 636 and it seems to be good also. I've often thought it would interesting to put identical blades on them, tension them to about 25,000 lbs and measure the deflection.

i think you'll be satisfied with either one.

[guy knight]

when people compare brands one thing that never gets mentioned is the things you cant see that make a difference from the simple things like the different grade of bolts used i have broke 3 on my grizzly jointer and i was a mechanic so they where not over torqued bearings another great place to cut corners seals are another motors another great place to save money and make a difference in the long term use tolerance of parts all make a difference

[Frank Martin]

Great points made by others. If you can afford, without a doubt I would recommend Minimax. I had a Grizzly jointer/planer and then upgraded to Minimax combo machine, while a lot looked similar in specs, the quality and experience in actually using the two are very different. As others said, when you look at the specs on paper to make a decision, what you are missing the quality of build, tolerances, small design details. In my mind these two machines are in entirely different build quality categories. Of course this does not mean that Grizzly is not a decent machine and I have no experience with this particular one, but thinking the two are so similar based on specs could be misleading.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Good points on fit, finish, and details. There are enough favorable reviews of the minimax that I feel comfortable concluding that the quality is there. I'm more worried about the fit and finish of the Grizzly, but luckily I can go see the grizzly in person and get a sense for the quality... although I can't actually use it, I should be able to get reasonably comfortable with the build quality.

The $ difference between the machines is significant. That's the hard part for me. Without knowing the machines intimately, it's basically impossible for me to know whether the difference in quality is worth the money.

I know that labor in China is much cheaper than in Italy. So some of the price difference has to be attributable to that. Maybe half (just making this up for the sake of argument). The remainder has to come from somewhere. Maybe Grizzly has cheaper shipping due to their economies of scale. As I start thinking about it this way, I start to think that the quality difference might not be as sigificant as the price might indicate.

Ugh, now I'm over-thinking it. haha

[Andrew Hughes]

The resale value is a good thing to consider,You might find that you need or want more saw next year or two.If someone has already mentioned this.I apologize for being a parrot.

[Frank Martin]

Good points on fit, finish, and details. There are enough favorable reviews of the minimax that I feel comfortable concluding that the quality is there. I'm more worried about the fit and finish of the Grizzly, but luckily I can go see the grizzly in person and get a sense for the quality... although I can't actually use it, I should be able to get reasonably comfortable with the build quality.

The $ difference between the machines is significant. That's the hard part for me. Without knowing the machines intimately, it's basically impossible for me to know whether the difference in quality is worth the money.

I know that labor in China is much cheaper than in Italy. So some of the price difference has to be attributable to that. Maybe half (just making this up for the sake of argument). The remainder has to come from somewhere. Maybe Grizzly has cheaper shipping due to their economies of scale. As I start thinking about it this way, I start to think that the quality difference might not be as sigificant as the price might indicate.

Ugh, now I'm over-thinking it. haha

Looks like price difference is a really big factor for you. In that case, Grizzly may be what you want, and likely you won't be offended if you need to deal with the difference in quality such as replacing parts and repairing yourself as needed.

[Shiraz Balolia]

I'll have to jump in and correct a few things:

This machine is made in Taiwan in an ISO 9001 rated factory.

It was designed from the ground up to compete with the Italian machines and our goal was to make it better. We succeeded. There are older threads on this machine. Do a search plus you should actually try to talk to someone who owns the G0636X as opposed to guys bringing up other issues they have had with other machines, some made in a different country altogether and not even in the same league. The G0636X is more expensive than other Grizzly bandsaws for a reason.

Call our toll free line and ask for a reference for a customer that has bought this machine. We do not screen these and you will get an unbiased opinion from an actual owner and be able to ask questions, if they are willing to answer them, about this particular machine. In this world economy and advances in manufacturing, made in Italy is no longer better in every case, and certainly not in this one!

[Erik Loza]

....It was designed from the ground up to compete with the Italian machines and our goal was to make it better. We succeeded..

"better", how? Be curious to know, myself. Maybe we can have a civil discussion here about the design features of our respective machines, and how they benefit the end user?

Erik

[Mike Hollingsworth]

No bad choice here. Both great outfits.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I'll have to jump in and correct a few things:

This machine is made in Taiwan in an ISO 9001 rated factory.

It was designed from the ground up to compete with the Italian machines and our goal was to make it better. We succeeded. There are older threads on this machine. Do a search plus you should actually try to talk to someone who owns the G0636X as opposed to guys bringing up other issues they have had with other machines, some made in a different country altogether and not even in the same league. The G0636X is more expensive than other Grizzly bandsaws for a reason.

Call our toll free line and ask for a reference for a customer that has bought this machine. We do not screen these and you will get an unbiased opinion from an actual owner and be able to ask questions, if they are willing to answer them, about this particular machine. In this world economy and advances in manufacturing, made in Italy is no longer better in every case, and certainly not in this one!

Thanks Shiraz. I'll take you up on that!

[Frank Martin]

"better", how? Be curious to know, myself. Maybe we can have a civil discussion here about the design features of our respective machines, and how they benefit the end user?

Erik

I would love to see a "civil discussion" without this thread getting locked / removed. I do think these companies do serve specific customer segments, just have not been convinced that they are the same segment, but would love to learn.

[Erik Loza]

I would love to see a "civil discussion" without this thread getting locked / removed. I do think these companies do serve specific customer segments, just have not been convinced that they are the same segment, but would love to learn.

I'm glad to answer questions for anyone, including another manufacturer, about the various features of any of the Minimax machines. For the record, folks can say that not once in my original post, did I ever claim that the MM16 was "better" than any other machine. I just gave some reasons for why it costs what it costs. "Better" is purely subjective and IMO, the mfr. is the LAST person who can make that decision for the customer.

Erik

[Perry Holbrook]

All I can say is that when I bought that Grizzly BS several years ago, I felt it was the "better" value.

[Frank Martin]

All I can say is that when I bought that Grizzly BS several years ago, I felt it was the "better" value.

Excellent point! "Value" depends on personal priorities and preferences. For example, in this same situation, if I did not already have an Agazzani, I would be buying a Minimax or a Laguna bandsaw, becasue I feel they are a better value for me. Of course both of us are right, there is no wrong here, just priorities and preferences. This is exactly what I meant by saying that these companies' core customer segments don't have a lot of overlap and they serve different people / needs most of the time.

[Allan Speers]

Regarding "value to the particular user," here's some questions I'd want answers to: (#s 1-3 are critical.)

How do the 2 machines compare, regarding -

1: Alignment of the guides, when raising / lowering the post.

2: Ease of changing blades.

3: Ease of setting the guides

4: Functionality of the stock fence for sawing veneer. (Though again, I don't think you can beat the aftermarket Laguna fence, anyway.)

5: Size of the table.

6: How easy to angle the table, to an exact bevel.

7: (to a lesser extent) Customer service and replacement parts. etc.)

-------------------

Things I wouldn't care much about, as a hobbyist:

1: How it will hold up under heavy use.

2: How much power it has. (both are plenty for my needs)

3: How heavy the wheels are. (Again, both are heavy enough for me.)

4: Fit & finish. I wouldn't pay $1300 for prettier welds.

5: Resale value.

[Erik Loza]

Allan, here are my answers regarding the Minimax S400P (aka MM16). Answers in blue, inside your quote...

Erik



1: Alignment of the guides, when raising / lowering the post. S400P has four adjusting bolts, which are accesible from outside the cabinet, for adjusting guidpost plumb.
2: Ease of changing blades. Easy enough, I guess. Really depends on the blade. A 1" skip-tooth blade will be a whole different deal than a 1/2 blade, for example.
3: Ease of setting the guides. Minimax now ships them with the Euro-style guides. Same used by Agazzani and ACM for years. Just locking thumb rings. No tools required.
4: Functionality of the stock fence for sawing veneer. (Though again, I don't think you can beat the aftermarket Laguna fence, anyway.) I've had a lot of owners drill and tap or just clamp on accessory high fences but it sounds like you already answered yyour own question: There is no stock fence that is going to be adequate for the owner who wants to cut really tall veneers. You have to go DIY or aftermarket. The S400P fence is VERY heavy, though. All cast iron.
5: Size of the table. Would need to check my data sheet to be sure but on par with any other 16" machine. I thinl you will find that table sizes are all pretty much the same for the various size levels of bandsaw. You can only go so big on the infeed side, of course, and we want the table to equally balanced along the blade centerline.
6: How easy to angle the table, to an exact bevel. Real easy on the S400P. Just pop the lever with your hand and set it where you want.
7: (to a lesser extent) Customer service and replacement parts. etc.) Wearable parts (tires, belts, switches, etc) are almost always in stock. Major structural components may have to come from Italy and I'd be lying of I said there sometimes wasn't a wait but the good thing is that stuff rarely goes wrong with bandsaws. At least Italian ones. If a machine shows up smashed, I'd just ship the customer a new one but honestly, 99% of my support calls are just setup related.

-------------------
Things I wouldn't care much about, as a hobbyist:
1: How it will hold up under heavy use. I'll let the MM16 owners answer that.
2: How much power it has. (both are plenty for my needs). More than you will ever need.
3: How heavy the wheels are. (Again, both are heavy enough for me.) About 25lbs. apiece on the S400P
4: Fit & finish. I wouldn't pay $1300 for prettier welds. Again, "good enough". I think there are plenty of other bandsaws out there that have shinier parts and sexier paint jobs but hopefully, MM owners aren't as concerned about stuff like that.
5: Resale value. Again, I'll let owners answer that. Based on the calls I get, if SCM had a warehouse full of used MM16's, I could probably sell them all in a day. "Any used or demos?" Get that all the time.

[Shiraz Balolia]

I don't normally get into comparisons on the forums since such information is the responsibility of the purchaser. However, it seems like there have been comments made and somewhat of a gauntlet that has been thrown so here is what I was able to come up by visiting the two websites.

It is extremely difficult to get the specifications of the Minimax from their site since they list exactly 8 specifications on their site while Grizzly lists dozens so that customers can make an educated decision. In today's world of instant access to information, it is important to give customers that information without having to make a phone call. This also goes to the quality and thoroughness of the instruction manuals, parts lists and other information that should be readily accessible to users or potential customers. Therefore, there are several question marks on the chart when it come to Minimax specs.

http://i62.tinypic.com/25aswo7.jpg


Here is a link to Grizzly's full specs. on the machine. You can also view the whole manual on-line. I suppose this type of access is part of customer service as well.

http://cdn2.grizzly.com/specsheets/g0636x_ds.pdf


And, here's a picture of the table support and hand wheel tilt system on the Grizzly that is a huge feature not available on the Minimax.


http://i58.tinypic.com/20ker8g.jpg


And a link to the machine with the manual, parts list , specifications, video and other information available instantly to the customer:

http://grizzly.com/products/17-Ultimate-Bandsaw/G0636X

[Erik Loza]

Mr. Balolia, I'll be glad to respond to all that. First, I would remind everyone that they are comparing a 17" machine to a 16" machine, so naturally weights can be heavier and things like the cutting width and table size will be larger. Also, the Minimax S400P does not sell for $4K. Not anywhere near that, in fact. The OP was factoring in shipping and sales tax. Minimax machinery will never be the price point of Asian-built machinery (for reasons already discussed) but I would be willing to bet that if someone polled most of my customers, they probably would all tell you that they got a better deal for the level of machine they got than they might have planned for. This is a sales-driven business, after all.

Regarding your chart, folks should know that we might be talking about two different types of criteria. Some of those criteria are more logistical or cosmetic. "Crated weight" isn't (or shouldn't be) a selling point. Also, I chuckle a little when I see terms like "tough powder coated", "precision ground", or "computer balanced". Is there any modern bandsaw out there that does not have a powder coated chassis, a properly machined table, or wheels that aren't machine-balanced? I can't think of one. At least not an Italian one. Minimax doesn't make a big deal about things like that because, well, they figure you know that we all use modern manufacturing techniques. You won't find "precision ground table" on any MM literature but here's a snapshot of the S400P I had in Vegas...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/S400P/P1010022_zpsrata2aoq.jpg

Where I do make a big deal, though is thinks like actual design features. For example, I did not see any of these things addressed on your chart.

-Minimax has triple-gusseted spine for absolute strength and rigidity and the body is fabricated of 3.5mm steel. How many columns in the Grizzly machine and what is the wall thickness? The MM's are designed to tension Lenox carbides, the highest-tension bandsaw blades you can buy? Could you run a Lenox Tri-master on your machine?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MM16triple-boxedbeamcolumn.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/S400P/4a%20MM16%20body%20thickness_1_zpsqicev9pr.jpg

-The S400P has a 1.25" thick round steel guidepost that uses a chain and sprocket for raising and lowering. The design is self-cleaning and never will become fouled or caked with dust and also, is the strongest in the industry. The entire guidepost runs through an iron reinforcement casting that is then bolted to an extra steel plate that is sandwiched between it and the upper cabinet wall. This entire component group has four adjusting bolts that are easily accessible from outside the machine...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MMguidepostsupportblock.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MM16handcontrols.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/S400P/2a%20MM16%20Guidepost_zpsojfs2juh.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/S400P/P1010034_zpssrh3xrr6.jpg

Is the Grizzly not just a square steel bar with rack bolted to it?

The heavier the flywheel, the more power it's able to transmit through the blade, which of course, makes for a smoother and easier cut. S400P flywheels weight about 24lbs. apiece. Notice the thick castings and minimal number of cutouts...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/S400P/P1010019_zps9bx20vtx.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MM16lowercabinet.jpg

What is the weight of the Grizzly flywheels?

Minimax uses a tongue-and-groove tire on these machines. In the event of tire damage, you can relace it yourself in minutes. New tire just snaps right in....

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MMtongue-and-groovetire.jpg

How long does it take to change a tire on the Grizzly?

The footbrake assembly on the S400P is "soft touch"; can be stopped in one revolution with only toe pressure. This is due to an oversized brake drum and shoe.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MMfootbrakeanddrum.jpg

Can we get a look at the size drum and shoe on the Grizzly? Perhaps see a video of how fast it actually stops the wheels?

Regarding table tilting, have to confess that I have never seen that cantilever-type system before. We cut some huge stuff in the shop and I have yet to feel the need for any additional table support. At least on my machines. Maybe other machines need it but that's not a complaint or concern I have ever personally hear or run into. The S400P's table bracket is actually quite strong.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MMtrunionunit.jpg

And ditto for the "quick tension release". Might be a benefit on saws with crowned tires or something like that but on MM's, you just take a couple of twists out of the tensioning crank and that's it. Doesn't really need anything more sophisticated than that. There are some other things that pop into my head, like the twin transvers reinforcing beams in the pedestal, the fact that the mobility kit is standard, that a leveling kit is included, etc. but my selling points have always been that this machine will handle anything a customer throws at it and do that, well. No frills, same color as your fridge, but it works great and holds its value. Thanks for allowing me to respond.

Erik

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/S400P/EL%20with%20S400P_zpsdq86bwdg.jpg

[John C Bush]

Hi Peter,
I have the Grix 531B 21" BS and use it mostly for resawing. I lusted after the sexy Italians as well but used ones never seemed to be available and I couldn't justify the cost of a new machine for my hobby. I live in Edmonds so a trip to the Bellingham showroom made my decision easy(ier). If you would like to give a Griz a test drive let me know. John.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Looks like you are turning this into a pissing contest, but our steel is thicker and bigger than yours!

http://i58.tinypic.com/4t7km0.jpg


Oh, and the Lenox tri-master and any other blade made on earth for bandsaws can be tensioned on the Grizzly G0636X!

And the rack and pinion is a solid bar with milled toothing. I could go on and on............................there is no comparison! I think the prices are inverted. The Grizzly should be a grand more than the Minimax!

[Erik Loza]

Not a contest. At least not as far as I am concerned. As someone else here pointed out, we are catering to two different segments of the market. That's what I'm trying to show. Ask me any question. I will tell you exactly how it's made, where its' made, and why it's built a certain way. Must confess that I did not realize that about the Grizzly here is my question: What about all those other design features?

Again, you will notice I have not once said that Minimax is "better" than Grizzly or any other brand, for that matter. That's the purview of the customer, not the sales guy. But here is what I have always found curious: The whole world can see how a machine like the S400P is designed. Heck, I put detailed photos on the web and even explained why. And it's been this way for years. So, knowing all that, why do we have yet to see another bandsaw that has these design features? And I'm not talking about "marketing" features like quick releases and stuff like that, things that really don't make you cut any better. I'm talking about actual structural and engineering features. Could it be, "Because it would cost more"? And if it costs more, then maybe the customer starts thinking that he can afford an Italian machine after all. If we're being honest, the S400P is more expensive than the Grizzly machine but not to the level that most guys might think.

Competitors always says, "Our is the best!", and they may believe that but all I have to go by is the MM16's track record. Since it came into the market in 2001, is has remained essentially un-changed. In spite of the fact that it's the same color as a washing machine, that has no fancy guides or resaw fences, no quick release tensions, a manual that was probably sketched by 3rd graders, and the worst marketing presence in the civilized world, the machine you get for your dollar is a bargain. I guarantee two things to MM16 owners..

1.) You will only buy it once.
2.) You will own it for as long as you care to.

That's really what you're paying for with an MM16. And again, it is up to the customer to judge.

Erik

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I would have to say, thanks to Erik and Shiraz for their comments. I don't have a dog in this show, but I have always been impressed with the MM saws. I'm also impressed with this Grizzly model, even surprised we don't hear more about it. (Shiraz, not a direct payoff marketing high end machines but it sure builds your reputation!)

A high end bandsaw is an expensive purchase for a woodworker, but then so is a SawStop which seem to be selling well.

More options, at more price points are always better for the buyer. Having manufacturers who are willing to build high end machines could easily become a rarity with many current trends.

I'm glad I don't have to decide on a bandsaw! I'd want one of these for my barn shop and the other for my garage shop!

[Erik Loza]

...More options, at more price points are always better for the buyer. Having manufacturers who are willing to build high end machines could easily become a rarity with many current trends.

Bill, when I last talked to Centauro (the company that build the MM's for Minimax) about this, the US Domestic Market accounted for something like 30% of their GLOBAL bandsaw invoicing. There is definitely a steady demand for that price point and level of quality here.

Erik

[Jeff Ramsey]

Peter, I'll add something else you might want to consider. I went through an evaluation months ago on bandsaws, as I wanted to upgrade my 14" to a larger one (mostly for resawing), and got it down to two; Felder and MM. I think the Grizzly would have been fine but decided to go Euro. I ended up with Felder's FB510 (I think the MM would have been just fine, as well). I also considered the FB610 but decided against it because I didn't think I needed the extra size/weight. I haven't had the FB510 long but I'm thrilled so far. It's outstanding quality, excellent design/construction and cuts everything I throw at it. I also am close to the east coast office in Delaware and have stopped several times to visit and look at machines; that had an influence in my decision. Their support has been outstanding, as well.

[David Kumm]

If we can keep this factual and I'm very happy to see the pictures and discussion, how about a close up of the motor plates. Frame size, amp draw, efficiency are factors in judging motor quality. Also a picture of the tensioning assembly would be helpful. My older ACM LT 18 had a decent frame but the spring rested on a piece of steel that I felt was too thin to handle the upgraded spring needed to tension Trimaster blades. I'm a cast iron guy now so no dog in this fight, but I think woodworkers should learn more about how their machines are made. Dave

[Shiraz Balolia]

[QUOTE=Bill ThompsonNM;2469854] I'm also impressed with this Grizzly model, even surprised we don't hear more about it. (Shiraz, not a direct payoff marketing high end machines but it sure builds your reputation!)
QUOTE]

Bill - good point!

Almost all of our ads are targeted with several machines on them. One of the things we are known for is the variety of machines and the selection. We have more bandsaw models, planers, jointers, tablesaws, sanders than any other company in the World under one brand. We cater to all segments of the market and most people are not aware of the number of machines we sell to Industrial users. There are large numbers of big three phase machines in our catalog and website. Most users that don't use such equipment don't really look at that stuff or are unaware that these exist in the Grizzly line.

The G0636X has been on the market for not many years and we have sold quite a few of them. I don't know how many of those buyers frequent this site, but often I have noticed that owners are sometimes reluctant to get into the discussions on threads for various reasons.

Anyway I think I have spent enough time on this thread. All in all, I think the customers learned more about the two machines in question.

[Allan Speers]

This has becominge an incredibly helpful thread. It should be a sticky.

- And I applaud all parties for keeping the discussion factual, civil, and so detailed. Clearly both are excellent machines, but with some important differences. Bravo !

[Allan Speers]

Hi Peter,
I have the Grix 531B 21" BS and use it mostly for resawing. I lusted after the sexy Italians as well but used ones never seemed to be available and I couldn't justify the cost of a new machine for my hobby. I live in Edmonds so a trip to the Bellingham showroom made my decision easy(ier). If you would like to give a Griz a test drive let me know. John.


I've had that same machine, since early this year, and so far I love it.

Only a few caveats:

1: The stock (black) tires are not very good. Soft & sticky, compared to good polyurethane tires. No biggie, but that adds a small additional cost. That Minimax tire design looks very nice.

2: I really don't like adjusting the guides. I'd much rather have the Minimax guides, and I'd really love to have Laguna ceramic guides. I dunno why Grizzly is so adamantly AGAINST ceramics. Shiraz, if you guys ever offer ceramic replacements for my saw, at any price, I'll be first to order a set.

3: The electronic brake on my Grizzly works better than I expected. No complaints. - But I'd prefer to have a mechanical brake as I think that's a little safer in an emergency, (am I wrong?) especially if it stops the blade in one revolution. I give the Minimax a small plus for that. (very small, but things add up.)

I also think the Minimax post design is clearly superior, and that might be a big factor for me if I had to make the OP's decision. However, as I wrote earlier, my particular post assembly, on my particular Grizzly, is very beefy & very accurately aligned, so I'm a happy camper.

[Erik Loza]

Back when I was doing the trade show circuit, the MM16's footbrake assembly really impressed guys. They were always surprised at how quickly it would stop the wheels when you touched the brake. Then, just the brute power. You would not have believed the size of stuff people would come up and ask us to cut. Giant burls. The hardwood vendors would bring them over: "Hey, can you split this for me?". Machine never skipped a beat, cut through anything.

Erik

[ian maybury]

:) Nice to see a bit of humour creeping in too guys, even if it's a fairly serious topic.

I've no particular axe to grind either, but based on personal experience do think that it can be very hard to separate machines by ticking boxes on spec sheets. Spec does matter, and whether or not stuff is included can be quite a big deal - but there are all sorts of additional subtleties that only emerge after an order is placed, and/or when the thing has been in your shop for a while. Even something basic like e.g. weight doesn't mean much if the extra material isn't effectively used, or is of poor quality.

The point is that the following also matter, and often a lot. They are generic considerations, and definitely not intended to suggest or say anything about the relative merits of the above machines or suppliers.

The starting point is perhaps accuracy of data and advertising claims (or more typically avoidance of making OTT or misleading claims which might be factually correct), quality of design and development (good machines seem like they were designed by an experienced woodworking engineer, and have had the bugs knocked out/are proven), and the nature of the purchase agreement/what might be buried in the fine print.

These are quickly followed by quality of of parts and materials (tolerances, quantities/grades, finishes (both plated and painted), hardness, grades of steel, toughness and longevity of plastics, flatness etc etc), of build and pre-delivery alignment/set up (a big deal for many not in a position to resolve issues themselves - and some machines can come with missing and loose fasteners, and huge misalignments), of delivery, of warranty and warranty admin, of documentation, and of service and support.

I place a lot of value on relationships and trustworthiness, although businesses these days seem to more and more be organised so that there's less scope for employees to act except at arms length and in accordance with standard procedures.

It's easy to just keep on ramping up some mythical want list when buying any woodworking machine, so it's important to understand too that (regardless of advertising claims) it's an incredibly competitive industry and mature market with offerings at every conceivable level/price point. It's probably as a result the case that only very occasionally is it possible to buy more for less money...

[John Stan]

Hi,
I own a G0636X and like it. I have had it for about 4-5 years. Among other things, I have cut logs, resawn wide boards, and cut veneer, cut dovetails, and even trimmed graphite golf shafts with the saw and it has performed flawlessly in all cases. I have run the Lennox Trimaster and bi-metal blades and have had no problems tensioning them to the appropriate tension. I find the blade changes to be easy. The saw is really stout, there is nothing cheap, flimsy, or thin on it. The saw was pretty much set up when it arrived. I don't recall any difficulties or tuning that was required to get it working properly. The fence is very heavy and clamps in place properly. I am certain that the MM, Laguna, and Agazanni saws are also quite nice. It should not be lost on folks that representatives from both Grizzly and Minimax chimed in on the thread to explain their products. To me, that puts both brands in high regard.

Kind Regards,
John

[Peter Aeschliman]

Agreed. Thank you so much Shiraz and Erik for the civil discourse. The passion you guys have for the machines you sell is evident. I like to think I can tell the difference between overly salesy folks and those who genuinely believe in their products, and you guys clearly both believe in your products.

When you get into this price range, you rule out a lot of hobbyists. Which means the magazines aren't going to include them in their big comparison articles/reviews and you won't see as many owners posting about them either. I would love to see some demo videos on youtube, and Erik as I think you admitted, your site could use a bit of spiffing up/ additional info. :)

Also, regarding price, my apologies for not being clear. I want to respect Minimax USA and not post the full price breakdown here, but the quote Erik gave me was many months ago, so it may be out dated. But here is a more precise apples-to-apples price, using the Grizzly site and Erik's (now outdated) quote. Keep in mind I must pay 9.6% sales tax for both machines, and shipping cost is included. Note that Grizzly's shipping cost doesn't necessarily include liftgate service, where as the minimax one does.

Grizzly: $2,898.92
Minimax: $4,020.92


And John, thanks for chiming in here. As Shiraz said, it's rare to find owners of this machine who are willing to post online.

Now for an update: I just got back from my drive to Bellingham to check out the G0636X. Got there only 15 minutes before closing, but had enough time to fidget with it. Uhm. It is awesome. The salesman was also very helpful. Obviously they weren't going to let me cut anything in the middle of the show room, so I can't really tell you how it cuts wood... which is obviously the point of a bandsaw (well, a wood-cutting bandsaw at least!). But the fit and finish were there, trust me. Huge, heavy everything, etc. The guide post assembly moved up and down smoothly and stayed parallel to the blade. The table adjustment is really smooth as well.

I own a sawstop table saw, which is by far the nicest machine I own. The fit and finish on the sawstop is impeccable. Honestly I think the grizzly was up there with the sawstop.

I most certainly haven't ruled out the S400P, but just thought I owed the group an update.

I'm about halfway through renovating my basement right now, so a purchase might still be a few months away. But I promise to update the group afterwards. If i buy the grizzly, maybe I'll post an in depth video review of it, since I know I would really appreciate having one for reference right about now. :)

Thanks again everybody for your very helpful posts.

[Charlton Wang]

And the rack and pinion is a solid bar with milled toothing. I could go on and on............................there is no comparison! I think the prices are inverted. The Grizzly should be a grand more than the Minimax!

Shiraz,

Is this really true? Looking at the parts list for the G0636x, it looks like Erik is right in asserting that the guide post is a bar with the rack bolted on, no? These seem to be parts 182 and 186. I would expect that a solid bar with milled tooth would be just a single part.

Thanks,
Charlton

[Rick Moyer]

Hey Peter! It's been over a year now. What'd ya get and where's the update?

[bob cohen]

I'll put another plus in for felder bandsaws. I have the fb610 and couldn't be happier, probably the best tool in my shop. I got it for a very good price, probably no more than the mm20. My previous bandsaw was a laguna 16 Belgium made). The Felder is much better, like comparing a cabinet saw (the felder) to a contractor's saw (the laguna).

[lee cox]

I owned 2 Rikon china made bandsaws before my Minimax S45 Italian made bandsaw. Now that I have a taste of the Italian made bandsaws I don't think I will ever buy a China made one again. The fit and finish is so much better in the Italian bandsaw I would never go back. I have never owned an Grizzly anything power tool so I have no comment and I have never used a MM16 bandsaw. So I am generalizing but this is what I think.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Hey Peter! It's been over a year now. What'd ya get and where's the update?

Hi Rick,

Having this thread pop back up has been sobering for me. haha. In my last post, I said I was about halfway through the basement renovation. Oh how silly and naive I was. :) I'd call myself about 75% done at this point.

The reality is that I'm still spending my weekends working on the space and don't want the bandsaw in the way while I do so. Structural steel beams, all new posts and footings, a sump pump and perimeter drain, seismic retrofitting, trenching & concrete work for below grade DC ducting, electrical, diamond grinding and sealing the concrete floor, insulating, finishing the walls and ceilings, painting. The list goes on. Doesn't help that I added a beer brewery area to the project halfway through. haha.

But I still plan to get the G0636x and promise to update everybody when I do. Hopefully I'll be ready to move in tools within the next 6 months.

Really hope I don't have to come back to this thread and re-read my previous sentence with a still unfinished basement... :)

[John TenEyck]

Come on Peter, finish that renovation so you can get back to working wood. As for which BS to get, you can't go wrong either way. Both those machines are very well made and both will meet the needs of most anyone considering a saw of that size. The only substantial real difference I could discern between the two is in the price. You can look for my review of the one I bought.

John

[Van Huskey]

Having this thread pop back up has been sobering for me. haha. In my last post, I said I was about halfway through the basement renovation. Oh how silly and naive I was. :) I'd call myself about 75% done at this point.



But I still plan to get the G0636x and promise to update everybody when I do.

I know the taking forever to build very well.

The G0636X is a solid alternative to the Italian saws but IMHO the Cantauro built saws are simply better, they are the best steel spine saws made, size for size. Having had time using both I would take a MM16 every day but there is the proce difference. Since you have time I suggest you keep your eye out for a used MM16 or MM20 surely you can store it and move it around if needed while you finish your build. Both show up fairly often and both can be had used cheaper than the Grizzly. Better saw, less money, just the pain of picking it up, but even if you have to rent a Uhaul and get some help on each end it will still be a better bargain.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Come on Peter, finish that renovation so you can get back to working wood.

You sound exactly like my internal monologue!

I'm trying to take a long term view, which is most definitely trying my patience. But I'm finally at a point where I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Big chunks of work are finishing the brewery, finishing the sound proofed DC closet, setting up the DC and central vac systems, and running all of the electrical in conduit. After that, I'll finally be ready to move in machinery and buy a bandsaw. Then it will take a while to build out my storage and get the shop organized. But I think that part will be really fun. Really excited!

[Charlton Wang]

Van, can you give tangible reasons? Ergonomics? Actual tension strength? Resawing ability? Curve-cutting ability? Resale value? Just soliciting your opinion to help make a decision.

I have concerns about flat tires being able to handle narrow blades and currently don't have space for two bandsaws.

Thanks,
Charlton

[Van Huskey]

Van, can you give tangible reasons? Ergonomics? Actual tension strength? Resawing ability? Curve-cutting ability? Resale value? Just soliciting your opinion to help make a decision.

I have concerns about flat tires being able to handle narrow blades and currently don't have space for two bandsaws.

Thanks,
Charlton

I knew when I hit enter someone would query me on the specifics, two things; one, I will have to revisit this tonight when I have more time and two, I have to work on refreshing my memory as it has been three years since I was hands on with a 636. Between now and then what is the minimum width blade you plan to use, many people answer that as 1/8" but my experience is that 1/8" blades are rarely used unless someone really needs a scroll saw instead though I do have a couple for one of my smaller saws.

[Charlton Wang]

I knew when I hit enter someone would query me on the specifics, two things; one, I will have to revisit this tonight when I have more time and two, I have to work on refreshing my memory as it has been three years since I was hands on with a 636. Between now and then what is the minimum width blade you plan to use, many people answer that as 1/8" but my experience is that 1/8" blades are rarely used unless someone really needs a scroll saw instead though I do have a couple for one of my smaller saws.

I'm happy to oblige as that someone. ;)

I know in the past you've mentioned that you felt the bottom guides of the G0636x were too far away to give adequate support.

A few other things that I've noticed:

1. In Minimax's manuals, it seems to suggest that the wheels *ARE* crowned. I made a post in another thread about this but basically according to one of the manuals [1], it seems to suggest that the tongue/groove tire has the appropriate convexity already. Of course, the other document [2] actually explicitly says that the tires are flat...so I'm not sure which one is correct.
2. I know in this thread there was some discussion about steel thickness but some pages [3][4][5] seem to suggest that the MM has 5mm formed steel.
3. Erik appears to be right in that the guide post for the G0636x is a square bar with a rack screwed in instead of being milled in as stated by Shiraz. I believe this was an honest mistake as in another post, Shiraz mentioned that the rack has hardened teeth [6].
4. Minimax seems almost impossible to buy here in Canada (Ontario). Selling is being handled through another company now and essentially non-responsive. It's as though they're not interested in selling you the saw. Perhaps they are only interested in pandering to professional shops. If only Erik was still working for SCM and was here in Canada. Felder, on the other hand, seems highly proactive.


[1] https://www.partspronto.com/MachineDocs/S400P-S900P%20PARTS%20AND%20OPERATIONS.pdf
[2] https://www.partspronto.com/MachineDocs/MM16%20MM20%20PARTS-OPS.pdf
[3] http://www.scmgroupna.com/en/products/classical-machines.c884/band-saws.895/s-400-p-s-500-p-s-600-p-s-700-p-s-800-p-s-900-p.659
[4] http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-MiniMax-S400P-MM16-16-Bandsaw-SALE-NOW-/331333536861
[5] http://www.firstchoiceind.net/woodworkingmachinery/index.php/mm16-16-bandsaw-1ph.html
[6] http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?69987-Grizzly-G0513X2-vs-G0636X/page2

[Victor Robinson]

Oh man...references. This just got real. :D

[Charlton Wang]

Sorry...I just figured pasting a bunch of links inline would be detracting but I also didn't want to give the impression that I was blowing unsubstantiated smoke.... because, you know, every citation on the Internet is "official." :)

[Van Huskey]

Man, I guess I have my evening planned out for me...

I still need to know the smallest size blade you plan to use as a lot of my opinion revolves around the guides and guide post. I have to look for my notes, I hope I can find them, they weren't in the notebook I thought they were but if you want a detailed listing of the many differences I found between their Polar Bear 14" saw (no longer made) and the standard 555 that was a little more expensive lemme know, I found that page...

[Charlton Wang]

For me, the *smallest* blade would ever envision using would be 3/16" but the smallest I've ever used is actually 1/4". Not too interested in the 14" to be honest.

[John TenEyck]

I just bought a G-0636X. It's a VERY robust saw. Grizzly claims you can run a 1-3/8" blade on it. I don't know if it can tension that one adequately, but it has no trouble with a 1" Woodmaster CT and I don't plan to ever need anything wider.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this thing is stout. The frame is a double box and the steel is thick. I measured it at about 4.5 mm thick. The spine of the machine, with the double box, is 8" square at table height. The cast irons wheels have very wide rims which helps increase the flywheel effect. The upper wheel weighs over 30 lbs IIRC; the bottom one weighs a lot more due to the large steel pulley attached to it. The saw weighs about 620 lbs complete. It runs very smoothly; easily passes the nickel test.

The guide post that everyone seems so interested in is a 30 mm square piece of steel. The rack is bolted on to it. The rack is actually segmented, which was a surprise to see, but it works very smoothly. I honestly couldn't care less if the rack is bolted on or milled into it. It moves very smoothly with no deflection, and stays perfectly aligned with the blade over its full range of motion. What more should it do? Milling the rack into the post would cost more, and should it get damaged you'd have to replace the entire post. If the rack on the Grizzly ever got damaged you could replace just that. Will the rack on the Grizzly get gummed up with sawdust? I don't know; I have good dust collection on mine and not much ends up in the top of the machine. The racks of a table saw get sawdust blown at them all day long and don't gum up if they are lubricated correctly - food for thought.

The lower blade guide is maybe 5" below the underside of the table. I'm not sure why Grizzly choose to put it that low. What I do know is the saw cuts beautifully straight, both with the fairly low end 3/4" blade that was on it, and the 1" Woodmaster CT now on it. I centered the blade on the upper wheel and it just cuts straight. No fiddling required. The stock roller guides are easy to adjust and I see no reason to want for something else. I plan to use this BS for resawing and veneer slicing only; I have a 14" Delta for smaller work.

The table on the Grizzly is tilted with a large rack and hand wheel. This is a pretty major advantage though some try to gloss over it. It not only makes it easier to adjust, but it provides two locking points to prevent movement and resist over stressing the trunions. The trunions on the Grizzly are massive cast iron.

The fence is very nice as is the front rail. It's another massive piece of square steel stock and is chrome plated. You can adjust the fence so that it is absolutely parallel to the miter slot and square to the table. That's how I have mine set up and I can just slide it up to the blade, adjust it to whatever thickness cut I want, and start slicing wood. When you lock the cam of the fence down it has a satisfying feel and stays rock solid in position with no deflection. I can cut veneer, for example, in beautifully consistent slices, top to bottom from one end to the other about as fast as I can push the stock through the machine.

I bought this saw with the intention that I would never sell it. Based on a couple of months of use, I have no regrets. If resale value was important to me I might have chosen the other saw for it's name recognition and reputation. Since that was not part of my decision process I could concentrate on which saw I felt offered better value.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

John

[Rick Moyer]

Man, I guess I have my evening planned out for me...

I still need to know the smallest size blade you plan to use as a lot of my opinion revolves around the guides and guide post. I have to look for my notes, I hope I can find them, they weren't in the notebook I thought they were but if you want a detailed listing of the many differences I found between their Polar Bear 14" saw (no longer made) and the standard 555 that was a little more expensive lemme know, I found that page...
Ah! It's good to have (Mr. Bandsaw) back and posting!!!

[Van Huskey]

For me, the *smallest* blade would ever envision using would be 3/16" but the smallest I've ever used is actually 1/4". Not too interested in the 14" to be honest.

OK, will keep that in mind when I post.

As for the 14" it was just a joke because I thought it was funny I found 3 pages of notes about a discontinued saw, I spent over an hour looking at those two saws and never posted my findings, I was doing it since many were looking at the Polar Bear saws at the time and the suggestion it was only paint color (true on some machines) was far from accurate with that saw.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I just bought a G-0636X. It's a VERY robust saw. Grizzly claims you can run a 1-3/8" blade on it. I don't know if it can tension that one adequately, but it has no trouble with a 1" Woodmaster CT and I don't plan to ever need anything wider.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this thing is stout. The frame is a double box and the steel is thick. I measured it at about 4.5 mm thick. The spine of the machine, with the double box, is 8" square at table height. The cast irons wheels have very wide rims which helps increase the flywheel effect. The upper wheel weighs over 30 lbs IIRC; the bottom one weighs a lot more due to the large steel pulley attached to it. The saw weighs about 620 lbs complete. It runs very smoothly; easily passes the nickel test.

The guide post that everyone seems so interested in is a 30 mm square piece of steel. The rack is bolted on to it. The rack is actually segmented, which was a surprise to see, but it works very smoothly. I honestly couldn't care less if the rack is bolted on or milled into it. It moves very smoothly with no deflection, and stays perfectly aligned with the blade over its full range of motion. What more should it do? Milling the rack into the post would cost more, and should it get damaged you'd have to replace the entire post. If the rack on the Grizzly ever got damaged you could replace just that. Will the rack on the Grizzly get gummed up with sawdust? I don't know; I have good dust collection on mine and not much ends up in the top of the machine. The racks of a table saw get sawdust blown at them all day long and don't gum up if they are lubricated correctly - food for thought.

The lower blade guide is maybe 5" below the underside of the table. I'm not sure why Grizzly choose to put it that low. What I do know is the saw cuts beautifully straight, both with the fairly low end 3/4" blade that was on it, and the 1" Woodmaster CT now on it. I centered the blade on the upper wheel and it just cuts straight. No fiddling required. The stock roller guides are easy to adjust and I see no reason to want for something else. I plan to use this BS for resawing and veneer slicing only; I have a 14" Delta for smaller work.

The table on the Grizzly is tilted with a large rack and hand wheel. This is a pretty major advantage though some try to gloss over it. It not only makes it easier to adjust, but it provides two locking points to prevent movement and resist over stressing the trunions. The trunions on the Grizzly are massive cast iron.

The fence is very nice as is the front rail. It's another massive piece of square steel stock and is chrome plated. You can adjust the fence so that it is absolutely parallel to the miter slot and square to the table. That's how I have mine set up and I can just slide it up to the blade, adjust it to whatever thickness cut I want, and start slicing wood. When you lock the cam of the fence down it has a satisfying feel and stays rock solid in position with no deflection. I can cut veneer, for example, in beautifully consistent slices, top to bottom from one end to the other about as fast as I can push the stock through the machine.

I bought this saw with the intention that I would never sell it. Based on a couple of months of use, I have no regrets. If resale value was important to me I might have chosen the other saw for it's name recognition and reputation. Since that was not part of my decision process I could concentrate on which saw I felt offered better value.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

John

John, that was fantastic and helpful! Thanks!

[Charlton Wang]

Thanks John. I actually perused all the photos that you have on your website. Your photos actually provide glimpses of the saw that you can't really find anywhere else (because you took the wheels off).

In terms of the guide post, I'm actually not so much concerned about whether it's milled or racked but merely pointing out variances from what has been stated by people of authority. It's sort of the same thing as me saying that the literature for Minimax indicates 5mm formed steel when, according to Erik's picture, it's less than that. Does it really make a difference? Not like within the intended operating parameters but nothing confuses potential buyers more than misinformation.

In terms of Grizzly putting the guide that low, I suspect it's because putting it any higher would either require a different trunnion assembly (on that would allow the guides to attach to) or else it would have to be via some sort of offset bar like on the Euro-style saws. Is there a material difference in the end? I don't know. In some cases, for really small blades, it seems no one really cares about the bottom guides (after all, Carter's guide for narrow blades is intended to allow twisting). For really wide blades, it seems enough beam strength would offset (much of) the need for guides.

I do like the rack and pinion adjustment of the table.

One other point to add that might be beneficial others: The tires on the G0636x are vulcanized. This is probably better for performance (no slippage and tire crowning and balancing is done with the wheel as a whole) and durability, though *if* you ever need to re-tire them, you'll probably have to send them away. Realistically, that's not likely to ever be necessary for home users, I suspect.

Thanks for your feedback, John (and your photos!). :)

Take care,
Charlton

[John TenEyck]

Charlton, I took a closer look at the lower guide in relation to the table. It looks like Grizzly chose to put it that low so that you cannot possibly get your fingers into the blade from under the table during use. I don't know why anyone would be putting their hands down there during use, but Vonage got the ideas for its commercials from real people. The guides are completely below the lower wheel cover and there is a guard the fits between it and the lower side of the table. The guides could fit up much higher under the table, even when the table is tilted to 45° if they got rid of that guard and attached the guides with an offset mounting bracket. However, there might be a small gap somewhere where you could get your fingers into the blade. Certainly, another guard could be designed to eliminate that possibility, but for whatever combination of reasons, Grizzly chose to do it the way they did.

The saw works just fine the way it is, but if someone were motivated they could remove that guard and fabricate a new mounting bracket to put the lower guides very close to the bottom of the table. Alternatively, you could replace the table insert with something like what Jack Forsberg recently showed and leave the lower guides as they are. I think that would be the more clever solution should one decide they wanted the guides to be higher. You can't get any higher than that.

John

[Charlton Wang]

Goodness. I've never seen that video [1] until now. Brilliant! Thanks for informing me about it.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQvnGgZUKxE

[Peter Aeschliman]

Goodness. I've never seen that video [1] until now. Brilliant! Thanks for informing me about it.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQvnGgZUKxE

That is really interesting!

[Van Huskey]

Jack has some really interesting ideas, that one is actually very good.

Turns out my notes are in my storage unit, so I will pick them up in the next day or two, I have to make an unexpected trip to Houston tonight/tomorrow so it will likely be Friday before I respond.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Jack has some really interesting ideas, that one is actually very good.

Turns out my notes are in my storage unit, so I will pick them up in the next day or two, I have to make an unexpected trip to Houston tonight/tomorrow so it will likely be Friday before I respond.

The suspense is mounting!!

[Patrick Walsh]

I know nothing about the MM machine. To be honest i am reading this as another bandsaw is also in my future. I will mirror what a couple have said up thread, cry once and buy the best the first time.

My first real shop tool was a Laguna 14/12. I have since built up a full shop. Shaper, slot mortiser, sawstop, 16" jointer/planer, router table blah blah blah. My laguna be a it a pretty good little machine is by far the misfit of my shop. The rest of my equiptment is Felder.

What i have learnt is that although you may not need the best you will not stop wanting for it. In many cases you may find you need it. For instance my little 1.5hp Laguna does not care much for resawing hard maple at the machines capacity. It can do it but its slow and destroys blades in a hurry and just not much of a joy to use.

Point is if you even kinda want the best now even in the slightest you should just save yourself the time, pain and ultimately money and just get it now.

I will replace my Laguna with either a 24" MM, Centuro, or Agazani. Even my shaper and planer i wish i had just sprung for Martin and taken it slower or a bigger loan. The only real tool i have yet to add to my shop and im not sure i even need is a slider. If i do purchase one it will be a Martin. At some point the same with my shaper, jointer and planer.

Go MM enjoy it and forget about it. You only live once. Plus if you are satisfied with he MM it will free up room in your brain to make stuff.

[John TenEyck]

I know the taking forever to build very well.

The G0636X is a solid alternative to the Italian saws but IMHO the Cantauro built saws are simply better, they are the best steel spine saws made, size for size. Having had time using both I would take a MM16 every day but there is the price difference. Since you have time I suggest you keep your eye out for a used MM16 or MM20 surely you can store it and move it around if needed while you finish your build. Both show up fairly often and both can be had used cheaper than the Grizzly. Better saw, less money, just the pain of picking it up, but even if you have to rent a Uhaul and get some help on each end it will still be a better bargain.


I looked for a used MM16 for months. Two or three came up for sale within 300 miles. In every case, the seller wanted nearly as much as a new G-0636X. OK, maybe I would have gotten a couple of blades with it, but still, used, no warranty, whatever road rash and issues they had, driving 200 - 300 miles each way to get it and haul it home. Didn't make any sense to me. I'm talking about MM16's less than 5 years old. The ones with 3 HP motors and 12" resaw height aren't in the same class as the new saw. Those might be available a lot cheaper, but they didn't meet my criteria so I never considered them.

For what it's worth, I do own a MM FS-35 J/P and love it, now that I have the motor issue sorted out. It was a deal that made sense, but it still involved a long drive and some unexpected expense to get the motor repaired.

John

[Peter Aeschliman]

I know nothing about the MM machine. To be honest i am reading this as another bandsaw is also in my future. I will mirror what a couple have said up thread, cry once and buy the best the first time.

My first real shop tool was a Laguna 14/12. I have since built up a full shop. Shaper, slot mortiser, sawstop, 16" jointer/planer, router table blah blah blah. My laguna be a it a pretty good little machine is by far the misfit of my shop. The rest of my equiptment is Felder.

What i have learnt is that although you may not need the best you will not stop wanting for it. In many cases you may find you need it. For instance my little 1.5hp Laguna does not care much for resawing hard maple at the machines capacity. It can do it but its slow and destroys blades in a hurry and just not much of a joy to use.

Point is if you even kinda want the best now even in the slightest you should just save yourself the time, pain and ultimately money and just get it now.

I will replace my Laguna with either a 24" MM, Centuro, or Agazani. Even my shaper and planer i wish i had just sprung for Martin and taken it slower or a bigger loan. The only real tool i have yet to add to my shop and im not sure i even need is a slider. If i do purchase one it will be a Martin. At some point the same with my shaper, jointer and planer.

Go MM enjoy it and forget about it. You only live once. Plus if you are satisfied with he MM it will free up room in your brain to make stuff.

Patrick, I know what you mean in general, and it especially makes sense if you have lots of money to spend. Although I'd consider myself extremely lucky and blessed, I do live in a world of meaningful opportunity cost.

[Van Huskey]

First, let me say that both of these are very solid bandsaws and are capable of doing the job one would expect from a heavy duty 16/17" bandsaw. Second, these are my opinions based on hands on use of both, I will say that I have had more time with the Minimax saws than the pair of Grizzly 17/19 Ultimate saws but I am only sharing what I actually observed balanced with the specifications, for example I didn't weigh each saw nor did I measure the table in that sort of case I accept the specs. Third, I probably have a bias toward the MM saws as they are and have been the benchmark steel saws in this size range. However, it is well documented here that I recommend Grizzly bandsaws on a pretty regular basis.

Country of origin, manufacturer/importer: The Grizzly is made in Taiwan and the MM is made in Italy. While I may have a knee jerk bias toward American and European bandsaws (that is all I own currently) I have several Taiwanese machines and can be extremely good with the proper vetting. Presale and aftersale service follows a different model from each company and many hobbyists may feel more comfortable with the more web based approach that Grizzly takes but MM has excellent reps but many really like the web based approach and Grizzly provides as much or more information on their machines than anyone online. The Minimax saws are made by Centauro. Centauro is a 70 year old company who made their name in bandsaws, their factory and foundry are located in an industrial area of Italy known for building some of the industry benchmarks in other areas. I know nothing about the manufacturer of the Grizzly, but the proof is in the pudding and they build a fine saw.

A couple of words on weight. The weight of the G0636 is indeed higher and we often use weight in machines as a short hand for quality. We are comparing a 16 and 17" saw which accounts for some weight difference which is not linear. There is also the fact that often engineering can produce a stiffer and lighter member using the same material, I am not saying this IS the case because I did not do a deflection study on the 636 but the spine construction is different with the MM using a triple box beam and the Grizzly a double box beam (at least that is what the Grizzly appears to be from the outside, I did not cut it open). The ACM built lighter saws in the Laguna and Felder lines perform very well and an American made Delta 28-350 20" saw weighs roughly the same as a MM20 but isn't nearly as rigid when it comes to deflection under the same absoute pressure. Point being weight is somewhat of a non-issue and someone would need to test deflection to determine if extra weight is well used or is mere ballast. Both saws are sufficiently weighty enough to avoid being tippy.

The next issue I will tackle is power. The saws have very similar rated power. I don't have an informed position as to which motor is actually better, I tend to favor American made motors (which there are fewer and fewer of everyday). Neither of these motors are made in the US and without further information on the details of the motor it is hard to form any opinion outside of personal bias. It is noteworthy the MM has an odd HP rating for a fractional motor but comes from it being uprated for use with US 60hz electricity vs the 50hz supply in Europe. They are rated within roughly 5% of each other and both more than meet my personal 1/4HP per inch of handfed resaw requirement.

Now lets look at a something where there is a clear winner and that is the 636's table. First, the Grizzly's table is larger and has a rack and pinion lift. This allows for quick, accurate and precise tilting of the table. If one does a lot of angle work on the bandsaw this could be a major benefit. The MM saws have an unusual "trunnion" assembly and is not a trunnion per se. It is very easy and quick to tilt and locks firmly but because it doesn't tilt around the center of the blade one needs different throat plates for angles. I read somewhere it was designed from turners feedback but I don't get it. This may or may not be of issue to an individual depending on their use and workflow. As for the stability of the MM table I have seen a Comatic AF/17 feeder living happily on the outside edge of a MM16 and have never thought of the table as anything but rock solid but there would be a weight at which the MM16 would faulter that the 636 would likely not, but I don't see that weight being placed on that size of saw. YMMV In any case the table adjustment and use for angled cuts is better on the 636. I will say the MM16 APPEARS to have a thicker table but the nature of iron castings make it impossible to do a simple measurement, the ribs are tapered and the unground bottom of the actual table is not flat enough to accurately measure quickly and simply but neither seem weak in any respect. Both saws have very solid cast iron fences, no winner here EXCEPT Grizzly includes a taller aluminum extrusion "resaw" fence which is a value added part that needs to be added to the MM if you do any tall resawing which most will that buy either of these saws. All examples I have seen have been flat enough for fine woodworking.

Just as with the table I got the impression the MM wheels were slightly more massive for the size it again is not a simple measurement and I did not attempt it nor did I disassemble what were other peoples saws to weigh and attempt to normalize the weight over different sizes. The 636 likely has heavier wheels given the larger diameter despite the increased number of larger cutouts. I personally prefer flat tires on resawing bandsaws, the smaller the wheels the more hypothetical advantage one has. The 636 has crowned tires and the MM flat tires. A crowned tire has a level of self correction when it comes to tracking and therefore is less sensitive to wheels that are not perfectly aligned, the more narrow the blade the tighter the tolerances of a flat tired bandsaw needs to be, I had no problem with a 1/4" blade on MM16s and I have run a 3/16" blade on my MM20 with a Carter Stabilizer. I am not saying the Grizzly is setup from the factory to lower tolerances just that the crowned wheels will mask some of that, in either case if the blade tracks well it doesn't matter. The reason I prefer flat tires especially on mid-size saws (16-24") is the high pressure required for a carbide tipped blade is spread over a larger area of the blade, a crowned tire concentrates the pressure on a narrow area and this causes the blade sides to bend down. This bending along with small wheels increases the chance of fatigue cracks at the gullets. While this seems to occur at lower rates than reported in the past it is still a potential issue for carbide blades which tend to have a very long life and require a high tension. This one is mainly hypothetical. Someone has mentined the 636's tires are vulcanized (while I do not think they are) if this is the case they should last longer but will have to be sent in to be changed, the MM has tounge and groove tires which are simple and cheap to change though they are also quite durable as non-vulcanized tires go.

I will mention the finish of the two saws since I know it matters to some people. The finish of the MM saws as with the entire SCM line of traditional machines has a slightly industrial feel to it. The Grizzly probably has a slightly better showroom appeal on the non-business parts but in the areas that finish is not just cosmetic the MM is finished as well and arguably better but to be definative one would have to do much more investigation than I did. The one 636 I actually setup and cut on had a table not quite as flat as the MMs I have measured BUT was well within the reasonable tolerances for a woodworking bandsaw.

Those of you that "know me" know I am a big advocate of foot actuated brakes on bandsaws, motor brakes are slow and can't be utilized with both hands on the work nor from the front and sides of the saw and occasionally I work more to the front of the saw. In this case both saws have foot brakes but one is much better than the other. The MM16 has a brake that requires less effort and stops the blade MUCH faster. Is this design, manufacturing or factory adjustment, I don;t know, but every MM saw I have used has stopped the blade with VERY little pressure and at a rate that initially one wonders if the saw is going to come of the ground dissipating the energy. Having used the brakes on multiple Grizzly saws (but only one 636) I would say the 636 I used was not an anomoly. The Minimax brake is simply the best available (including ACM and Meber built saws). The brake is not only a convenience issue but a safety issue.

Blade size. The Grizzly is rated to take a 1 3/8" blade and the MM16 a 1 1/4" blade. Honestly, I wouldn't want to snake a blade in either at their limit with both saws I would say 1" is the maximum I would won't to mount and unmount from them. None of the blades I use come in 1 3/8" so the extra 1/8" is merely hypothetical to me. Both were able to properly tension a Trimaster 1" (~29-30k psi) though visually the 636's tension spring coils were almost touching, the MM16 has more area between the coils providing the same pressure BUT this alone means nothing, it would be simple to test with a 1 1/4" blade (as I think both would max prior to 30K psi) but I did not do this. They both can tension a 1" carbide or bi-metal blade and thats the widest blade I would use on them, of note the Trimaster is a relatively thick blade so they both produce some significant absolute pressure. Of note I did find the MM to be easier to ramp up the pressure on, it could be the threads or ergonomics of the tension wheel, I don't know. The 636 does have a quick release but I never de-tension a bandsaw, I think these are market driven gimmicks. I have never fat spotted a tire on a bandsaw even after years of tension on carbide and bi-metal blades BUT will note that the chances are higher on a crowned tire than a flat tire and this may be a product of that, though it is not unusual to see large American bandsaws stay under tension for years as well with no flat spotting on crowned tire. I have never left a BS sitting under tension for many months so I can't speak to that scenerio.

The last area I will deal with is the guide support and the guides, here I think you will find the largest margin of "victory". First, is the guide post. The MM guidepost is simply more stable. Even when "unlocked" there is almost no play even extended over a foot. The novel approach to the design is apparent and the MM oozes precision and stability. The 636 simply doesn't play in the same league here. The other issue is the guides themselves. I know it has been said guides are a personal preference, I suppose one could say this being honest but to me guides are something that you can often find objective differences in. Regarding the positioning, the Grizzly lower guides are fixed and my first thought upon seeing them was that they were "stupid far down". All other things equal the closer the guides are to the workpiece the better they perform, Grizzly just got this wrong IMO. The MM guides are adjustable and can be brought very close to the bottom of the table. Next we have guide ergonomics. The Grizzly guides require tools for adjusting them and the lower thrust bearing adjustment is on the outside of the cabinet requiring you to work inside and go around to the backside and peek around the saw to set the thrust bearing. (this was in error after being questioned on it I consulted my notes and it was the lower guide lateral adjustment, which by the time I got to this point typing I read as the front/back thrust bearing adjustmentthat I had to adjust from the rear, which should be a one time adjustment and of no real issue) The MM saws have high quality Euro guides (save the few built with Carter guides) which are toolfree and easy to set. I will say that if genetics or infirmity has left one with very low hand strength the tool required guides may be more to your liking. Now to the bearings themselves. The Grizzly uses off the shelf 5200 series ball bearings. I HATE this approach which I see as another market driven improvement that is anything but. Bandsaws should be used to make skateboards not share parts with them. With these types of guides the blade touches the bearing at one small part and the bearing metal is soft and not designed for this type of use. They provide little support area and wear both externally and get packed up internally very easily. Compare this with the Euro guides. The Euro guides provide a bearing surface over a significantly larger area and range along with contacted the blade with hardedned steel surfaces a much more appropriate engineering solution, you have both increased efficacy and durability. These type of bearings just do the job better and longer and are designed for the type of leading they receive. The Euro guides also allow for simple easy "cool blocks" while you can buy the MM coolblocks the nature of the Euro guides lets you clamp a small wood block between the guides, just cut a kerf in it first and you have guides that support a small blade very well and cost next to nothing. I assume there is a Carter Stabilizer that fits the 636 but I don;t know for sure, IIRC it is the "Jet 4" that fits the Minimax saws. I am the first to point out when using a high beam strength blade and sutting straight guides are almost a non-issue save perhaps the thrust bearing but guides this poor just don't belong on a saw of the 636's caliber, poor choice of parts, limited bearing area, tool required guides that must be adjusted from two sides of the saw and lower guides that are too far away from the material equals a D- effort (not an F since I have seen worse). This isn't to say the Grizzly couldn't be retrofitted with better guides and the lower guide could be made adjustable but that is for an indivisual to ponder.

The final area I feel like discussing is resell, honestly I have seen maybe 3 636s sold on CL et al in the last 5 years IIRC they sold reasonably quickly at a fair price though seemingly (you never know what the actual transaction price was) at a slightly lower percentage than MM saws especially when you factor in the actual price the owner paid for the MM saws new since the price has gone up significantly over the years. Most people don't concern themselves with resell much on saws like this but if you are concerned you should take a deeper look.

In the end I think both of these are fine saws for what most people are looking to do with them. Each has their pros and cons and I think both are priced fairly for what they are. Which one represents the best value is an individual thing but I still think the MM saws are the benchmark in this category. I can see where under examination individuals would buy both saws as there is a significant price difference though possibly less at the true bottom line than many people think. In the end few of us hobbists will get 3 or 4 thousand dollars of use out of a bandsaw but that is the nature of hobbys versus occupations. Bottom line sometimes good enough is good enough. Finally, I think the best approach if one has the time is to look for a MM used, with patience a good MM20 or even a MM24 can be found for less than the price of either of these saws new.


BTW please excuse the grammer and spelling, I didn't proofread this as I have more enjoyable things to do on a beautiful day!

[Charlton Wang]

Whoa! Thanks for the dissertation, Van. Very informative. I'm pretty sure that G0636x does have vulcanized tires, though. Looking at the parts list PDF [1] (http://cdn0.grizzly.com/partslists/g0636x_pl.pdf) there are no separate tires. Also, in this post [2] (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?69987-Grizzly-G0513X2-vs-G0636X/page2) Grizzly was quoted as stating that the tires were vulcanized. I actually asked Grizzly about this and the response I got stated the following:


We appreciate your patronage with Grizzly Industrial and are glad that you have turned to us for your part needs. Unfortunately, the tire is no longer separate from the wheels. The tire is permanently attached to the wheel and the upper and lower wheel would need replaced.

My first reaction to hearing this was "what a piece of junk." But then i did a bit more research to understand what this means and it seems, as you've stated, vulcanized tires presumably last (a lot) longer but also need special services to have revulcanized when the time for replacement comes. i suspect that if/when the day comes for replacement, one could probably replace with flat tires and glue them on. Less convenient but it sounds like this is the way Agazanni also works.

In terms of guides, Euroguides certainly seem to be the best, IMO. Perhaps not as good as the Laguna guides in terms of absolute support and longevity but definitely in terms of setup. What's not clear to me is whether or not guides for the MM could also be used for the G0636x. They both seem to have a round mounting post which presumably makes interchange viable (at least the upper guides). Not so sure about the bottom guides as pictures don't really reveal enough about the mechanism but based on John's photos, seems like it might be doable, too.

Incidentally, I know Erik has stated that Centauro only makes bandsaws for SCM which might be true but at least here in Canada, there seems to be another player: http://www.cwimachinery.com/product/stallion-eu-series-hd-16x16-resaw-bandsaw/. These bandsaws look suspiciously similar to the Minimax's. No affiliation yadda yadda.

Happy bandsawing, everyone. :)

Charlton


[1] http://cdn0.grizzly.com/partslists/g0636x_pl.pdf
[2] http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?69987-Grizzly-G0513X2-vs-G0636X/page2

[Van Huskey]

Whoa! Thanks for the dissertation, Van. Very informative. I'm pretty sure that G0636x does have vulcanized tires, though. Looking at the parts list PDF [1] (http://cdn0.grizzly.com/partslists/g0636x_pl.pdf) there are no separate tires. Also, in this post [2] (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?69987-Grizzly-G0513X2-vs-G0636X/page2) Grizzly was quoted as stating that the tires were vulcanized. I actually asked Grizzly about this and the response I got stated the following:



My first reaction to hearing this was "what a piece of junk." But then i did a bit more research to understand what this means and it seems, as you've stated, vulcanized tires presumably last (a lot) longer but also need special services to have revulcanized when the time for replacement comes. i suspect that if/when the day comes for replacement, one could probably replace with flat tires and glue them on. Less convenient but it sounds like this is the way Agazanni also works.

In terms of guides, Euroguides certainly seem to be the best, IMO. Perhaps not as good as the Laguna guides in terms of absolute support and longevity but definitely in terms of setup. What's not clear to me is whether or not guides for the MM could also be used for the G0636x. They both seem to have a round mounting post which presumably makes interchange viable (at least the upper guides). Not so sure about the bottom guides as pictures don't really reveal enough about the mechanism but based on John's photos, seems like it might be doable, too.

Incidentally, I know Erik has stated that Centauro only makes bandsaws for SCM which might be true but at least here in Canada, there seems to be another player: http://www.cwimachinery.com/product/stallion-eu-series-hd-16x16-resaw-bandsaw/. These bandsaws look suspiciously similar to the Minimax's. No affiliation yadda yadda.

Happy bandsawing, everyone. :)

Charlton


[1] http://cdn0.grizzly.com/partslists/g0636x_pl.pdf
[2] http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?69987-Grizzly-G0513X2-vs-G0636X/page2

Thanks for the clarification on the tires, I seem to recall that issue now that it is cleared up. Even though vulcanized tires will last a long time 10-20 years based on Agazzani bandsaws they are still vulnerable to getting a chuck taken out by mishaps like a broken blade, which I have had happen on a diffeent saw. The idea of paying $596.99 (including shipping sans potential tax) when all one needs is new tires is umm err CRAZY. Agazzani provided a tire replacement service when they still imported to the US prior to being bought out.

Centauro has and continues to sell their bandsaws outside the US under their own name and OEMed for others. They have three lines of traditional bandsaws only one sold through SCM, the CO HD line. The link you provided is indeed the Centauro CO HD line as well or a perfect clone of it, the former is far more likely.

While I didn't mention it I prefer the Laguna (or Felder) ceramic guides to all other guides including Euro guides, their ease of setup (for the most recent tool free version) and significant bearing area (and the width between points) trumps all the others as does their ability to be run actually touching the blade. As for which guides can be retrofitted to the 636 I don't know but where there is a will there is usually a way especially with a post design. Note I have also left off discussion of several types and makes of guides not usually found on this size saw such as the numerous large Carter guides.

[John TenEyck]

An excellent discussion, Van. However, your comments about the blade guides are not consistent with what is on my 636X. The upper guide bar assembly (30 mm square, Charlton, not round) is rock solid, and has essentially no play in it even when unlocked. It rides silky smooth over it's full range of travel and the alignment with the blade remains constant. I can't imagine how any saw could be better in this regard. With the lower guide assembly, the thrust bearing is adjustable from the front (door) side of the saw, as are the two sets of side bearings. No going around the back required. I have a friend who has a 636X that's about 7 years old. He still has the original guide bearings on his. He's a hobbiest, so he's not cutting 1000's of BF, and he also has excellent dust collection on his saw, but still, the guide bearings seem plenty long lived.

Are you sure your comments about the blade guides relate to the 636X?

John

[Charlton Wang]

Hi John,

I didn't mean the main guide post is round but, rather, the mounting post that the guide assembly attaches to is round.

Cheers,
Charlton

[Van Huskey]

An excellent discussion, Van. However, your comments about the blade guides are not consistent with what is on my 636X. The upper guide bar assembly (30 mm square, Charlton, not round) is rock solid, and has essentially no play in it even when unlocked. It rides silky smooth over it's full range of travel and the alignment with the blade remains constant. I can't imagine how any saw could be better in this regard. With the lower guide assembly, the thrust bearing is adjustable from the front (door) side of the saw, as are the two sets of side bearings. No going around the back required. I have a friend who has a 636X that's about 7 years old. He still has the original guide bearings on his. He's a hobbiest, so he's not cutting 1000's of BF, and he also has excellent dust collection on his saw, but still, the guide bearings seem plenty long lived.

Are you sure your comments about the blade guides relate to the 636X?

John

I knew my memory and/or my notes would fail me at some point! The adjustment I remembered making in the back and transcribed poorly in my notes was the lateral play adjustment for the guides, which I did have to adjust on that particular 636.

You did bring up an issue I did not address and that was dust collection. While the 636 does have two DC ports one under the table and one at the bottom of the cabinet the MM has a zero clearance insert setup which allows near full dust collection at the upper port where little to none gets in the lower cabinet. I will say the MMs as delivered have the lower cabinet sealed too well and dust collection is increased by removing some or all of the weather stripping on the lower door.

The upper guide arm is indeed VERY smooth on the 636, there is far more stiction on the MM saws simply because they are much tighter when they are unlocked. All I can say is feel the arm on an unlocked MM saw you will see the difference in play.

I maintain my position on 5000 series bearings used as bandsaw guide bearings they are simply not designed for the purpose and in practice have small bearing surfaces on the blade. They are used quite extensively now and have to be replaced (or rehabbed) relatively often depending on how much one uses the saw.


BTW Peter it is a shame you are on the left coast, there is a MM20 with mobility kit, Driftmaster fence and Carter Guides for $3000 on the opposite side of the country. That is a no brainer for anyone considering either a 636 or MM16 new.

[John TenEyck]

Sorry, Charlton, I later realized you were referring to the bearing assembly mounting post, and not the guide arm. My mistake.

Van, I guess we're down to personal opinion on the upper guide posts. You are right; if you needed to adjust the guide post itself you would have to do that from the back of the machine. Mine came in perfect alignment so it was never an issue. As for the mechanism itself, I'm not sure how you can improve on silky smooth with no play. Perhaps Grizzly has improved the mechanism on the 636 since you looked at it. And in the end, all that matters is how the saw performs after everything is locked for use so we're comparing things of no real importance.

Another look at the guides themselves showed the top and bottom are the same assembly, installed as mirror images. All the bearing adjustments can be done from the front of the saw and are easily accomplished with a single wrench that Grizzly supplies with the machine. They also supply the hex wrenches needed.

There is a set of brushes on the 636 where the blade passes from the upper DC port to the lower wheel housing, in the same manner as the ZCI used on the MM16. I'm surprised how much dust still goes down into the lower wheel housing, however, and you do need good dust collection to keep things under control. I had to re-engineer my dust collector and piping to get enough airflow to keep up with all the dust that resawing 12" wide boards generates. I have about 1200 cfm (specs., not measured) and it's on the low end of what you'd like to have on this thing.

John

[Van Huskey]

Sorry, Charlton, I later realized you were referring to the bearing assembly mounting post, and not the guide arm. My mistake.

Van, I guess we're down to personal opinion on the upper guide posts. You are right; if you needed to adjust the guide post itself you would have to do that from the back of the machine. Mine came in perfect alignment so it was never an issue. As for the mechanism itself, I'm not sure how you can improve on silky smooth with no play. Perhaps Grizzly has improved the mechanism on the 636 since you looked at it. And in the end, all that matters is how the saw performs after everything is locked for use so we're comparing things of no real importance.

Another look at the guides themselves showed the top and bottom are the same assembly, installed as mirror images. All the bearing adjustments can be done from the front of the saw and are easily accomplished with a single wrench that Grizzly supplies with the machine. They also supply the hex wrenches needed.

There is a set of brushes on the 636 where the blade passes from the upper DC port to the lower wheel housing, in the same manner as the ZCI used on the MM16. I'm surprised how much dust still goes down into the lower wheel housing, however, and you do need good dust collection to keep things under control. I had to re-engineer my dust collector and piping to get enough airflow to keep up with all the dust that resawing 12" wide boards generates. I have about 1200 cfm (specs., not measured) and it's on the low end of what you'd like to have on this thing.

John

The issue with the locking mechanism for the guide post is not how it operates today but how it will operate in the years to come. You will really have to look at and use one of the MM saws to see the difference, it is indeed there. It is simply the most overbuilt guide post assembly in the steel spine arena.

I will admit I hate guides that require tools, there is simply no reason at the level of the 636 to require tools to adjust the guides. While it doesn't directly impact the usability of the saw it does affect the user interface.

Does your saw still have the large hole on the right side of the blade (opposite of the brush), the 636s I have seen were very open in the box under the guides. I think the dust collection is fine on the Grizzly, my notes were due to the fact the 636 has two ports and the MM only one. The MM is designed to catch as much dust as possible at the one point where the Grizzly uses two to accomplish what is a similar amount of dust collection.

In the end as I ahve said both saws are up to the tasks you would ask of a 16/17" bandsaw. The 636 is a significant step up in most ways over the 513 series and has some advantages over the MM16 but in the end I think the MM16 is a better saw and reminds me why the Centauro CO HD line is the benchmark for mid-sized steel spined saws. There are a dozen or so things I would change about the Centauros so they are not nearly perfect in my eyes.

If someone wants a new bandsaw and their budget is ~$2700 then I have zero issues with recommending the 636 but as with most things in life there are usually better options if ones budget is bigger and/or are willing to buy a used saw.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Thanks Van and John- you guys have way over-delivered on this.

Van, an MM20 at $3k sounds awesome- definitely too bad it's on the other coast. Problem is that it would need to fit in my basement (7' ceilings). I'd have to look it up, but if my memory is correct, it wouldn't fit.

[Van Huskey]

Thanks Van and John- you guys have way over-delivered on this.

Van, an MM20 at $3k sounds awesome- definitely too bad it's on the other coast. Problem is that it would need to fit in my basement (7' ceilings). I'd have to look it up, but if my memory is correct, it wouldn't fit.

They are just under 7' with the guide down inside the body, with it fully extended it is over 7'. Even if that weren't a problem if it had to be tipped to go through a door you could not tip it back upright. But stay alert while you are building deals on mid-sized saws pop up on a regular basis. Don't just check CL, check the classifieds on ALL the woodworking forums. I have $2900 in my barely used MM20 which includes the mobility kit, MM cool blocks, 34 blades with 2 being carbide and only one of the blades every having been mounted, a brand new in box Driftmaster fence and a Comatic power feeder that had never been mounted or even electrified. I see great deals on 16" saws from MM, Laguna, Agazzani, Meber and Felder quite regularly it just takes patience and looking but if your shop is not up and running it is a great time to look. There is also the possibility of finding a 636 as well but I rarely see those for sale. I just saw a older MM16 (with the 14" resaw) for about $1500 last month but it was also on the opposite coast. I will try to keep an eye out but I usually only search within 1,000 miles on CL (using Searchtempest).