Emmert vise woes

[Kim Hillard]

Hello, I am the old owner of an old Emmert PM vise. It was given to me @ 20 years ago and now that I am retired I have decided to resurrect it. Problem # 1. The lead screw is so VERY badly rusted that it will not turn, budge or move in any way shape or form. I've applied weeks worth of penetrating oil (WD40) with little to no joy. Gentle and mild tapping of the handle bracket ...same results.
I realize now that I will need to purchase aanother lead screw and possibly the threaded hub it screws into at the rear. Question # 1. If I remove the front vise jaw can I get the long square screw housing and the screw out from the back?
Problem # 2. The wood handle hub has a bolt in it that does not appear original. I want to remove the but it too is stuck so I cannot get this off the front of the lead screw.
I'm looking for a little educated advisors feedback as to how it is disassembled.
Thanks in advance
Best regards,
Kim

[Nicholas Lingg]

First - You'll need this http://www.tooltimer.com/emmert.htm

Next there's a gentleman southeastern PA that has the Emmert vise parts, if no one else come's up with his name I'll keep looking for it.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Kim,
I'm not familiar with the vise, but have dealt with some rust issues, so two suggestions:

One, use a heavy weight penetrating oil. The WD40 may evaporate and so not give you the 'soak' time you expect.

Two, try some heat. Wrap the lead screw in wet rags and then heat just the hub with a torch. Just before the house catches fire, hit the hub a few times with persuader of choice, and then try to turn the screw. (as hub expands, it may break the rust bond between the parts.)

Good Luck!

[Kim Hillard]

Nicholas, thank you kindly. I have seen the article you linked but I don't see that it shows how the assembly or disassembly is performed. I have to get this apart before I can revive the threaded screw or else all bets are off. I will contact the fella in PA per your suggestion.

[Kim Hillard]

Malcolm, I'm OK with the heat and other oil methods or a combo of both. I'm sure once I get it apart that thoseethods can be used. It's the "getting it apart" part that is my main task beforehand. I appreciate your input.

[Jim Ritter]

PM sent.
jim

[Kim Hillard]

Jim, not seeing your PM yet. Could you resend possibly?

[Jeff Bartley]

Kim, have you tried PB blaster? I've used it for years to great success. There's another product called 'kroil' that, according to a mechanic, puts PB to shame, but I've never used it.

[Kim Hillard]

Jeff, haven't tried either but may have to try them. Thank you

[Ryan Mooney]

When all else fails electrolosis will usually get rusted together parts unstuck.

[Kim Hillard]

OK I may not have stated this clearly enough. I'm not so much interested in removing rust but how exactly to disassemble the vise to take off the rusted pieces. Sorry for the confusion. I will however use any and all rust removing suggestions once I get it apart. Thanks to all

[Mark Herdman]

Use a proper penetrating oil, WD40 is nothing like as good at penetrating rust as "Plus Gas".
Time and plenty of wiggling, you'll get there.

[Ryan Mooney]

OK I may not have stated this clearly enough. I'm not so much interested in removing rust but how exactly to disassemble the vise to take off the rusted pieces. Sorry for the confusion. I will however use any and all rust removing suggestions once I get it apart. Thanks to all

I would bet that the rust is largely what's making it hard to take apart. If you remove the rust then it should come apart more easily.

[Walter Plummer]

Kim don't give up. Here are pictures of the vises we restored. We used Seafoam's Deep Creep but now I think I like PB Blaster better. It will loosen things up. Then we used Evaporust to clean them up. You can get the Evaporust from Harbor Freight or Tractor supply. We never could get the pin out of either front jaw to release the square tube. 321563321561321562321564

[Walter Plummer]

Forgot to say that both of ours would unscrew even rusty. The front jaw and the square tube with the screw in it all unscrew out the front. Then you can remove the hub from the rear jaw and get the guts out. Is yours a turtle back like mine?

[Joe Rogers]

WD40 does many things but only one thing well. Displace water. If your want to penetrate rust get some Kroil. From Kano Labs. Nothing else over the counter works as well IMHO.
Joe

[Nicholas Lingg]

Remove this piece first it has 2 screws that you can get to from the back.

[Kim Hillard]

Mark, Ryan and Walter, I am confident that the rust is adding to the disassembly, however my question remains...if I remove the handle hub and the front jaw adjustment hub and the front face itself (these are free and move easily except the pin / bolt in the handle hub) will I be able to remove the lead screw hub and screw from the rear? The two screws that hold the lead screw hub are free and are easily removed as we speak.

Walter, no mine is a later U series. I've been unsuccessfully trying to add a couple pictures to this but the images have too high a resolution for this app. I'll try to downsize them somehow. I'm using my cell phone to do all this so my options are a tad limited.

[Kim Hillard]

321575Walter, my vise is a U6 series. I've been unsuccessfully attempting to attach a photo or two but the resolution is too high for this app apparently. I will figure a way to downsize the resolution soon. Thanks for the help. I'll know all about this device soon.

OK here is my latest attempt to attach a photo.

[Kim Hillard]

Joe, many thanks. I'll look some up.

[Doug McKay]

Ouch! Sorry Kim but that lead screw is toast. I would hack saw thru the screw right behind the handle tee where it necks down. Then the screw and plate should slip right out the back.

[Nicholas Lingg]

I would find out what parts are available first and only destroy the part that can be replaced I think the lead screw could be saved.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, I agree with Nicholas. Think you can save it. They are real deep acme threads,so pretty sure you can save it.

[Allan Speers]

Kim,

If at all possible, try to build an electrolysis tank. Use a GOOD power supply (not a car battery charger) and let it cook for a few days.

This is your best chance of success, and additionally it might even save the threads, though I wouldn't get your hopes up on the latter.

Once you have a good electrolysis setup, you'll likely end up using it more than you ever thought. It excels at killing rust in tiny nooks & crannies, and it also saves a micro-fine layer of metal which gets lost with all chemical methods.

[Nicholas Lingg]

Every thing you wanted to know about Emmert vises
http://mprime.com/Emmert/anatomy.htm

[Kim Hillard]

Made a HUGE bit of headway this weekend. With a lot of Brute Strength and Ignorance. Whilst trying to get the pin/bolt out of the handle I noticed that the lead screw would rotate an eighth of a turn or so...one way only. Back and forth with a dead blow hammer and a lot of sweat it finally came fully out of the acme nut. The lead screw is in pretty sad condition from the rust but I'm now able to get down to the cleaning and refinishing of the other parts. The rear jaw has a chunk missing from the top face that I could live with but i may see if the fella from PA might have a replacement as well as a better lead screw. Thanks to all that offered help, opinions and links. I will take pictures and keep you all posted with the progress.
Here is one that shows the parts all apart.321820

[Pat Barry]

Made a HUGE bit of headway this weekend. With a lot of Brute Strength and Ignorance. Whilst trying to get the pin/bolt out of the handle I noticed that the lead screw would rotate an eighth of a turn or so...one way only. Back and forth with a dead blow hammer and a lot of sweat it finally came fully out of the acme nut. The lead screw is in pretty sad condition from the rust but I'm now able to get down to the cleaning and refinishing of the other parts. The rear jaw has a chunk missing from the top face that I could live with but i may see if the fella from PA might have a replacement as well as a better lead screw. Thanks to all that offered help, opinions and links. I will take pictures and keep you all posted with the progress.
Here is one that shows the parts all apart.321820

If you can't just clean it up and get it to work for you are you really set on spending $ to restore it? These things aren't all that valuable or hard to come by, are they? I mean, a vise is a vise for all intents and purposes.

[Jim Koepke]

If you can't just clean it up and get it to work for you are you really set on spending $ to restore it? These things aren't all that valuable or hard to come by, are they? I mean, a vise is a vise for all intents and purposes.

They are not cheap.

They are not common.

It is more than just your average vise.

Maybe some time with Dr. Google will help you see a bigger picture.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

They are not cheap.

They are not common.

It is more than just your average vise.

Maybe some time with Dr. Google will help you see a bigger picture.

jtk

Thanks for the feedback

[Kim Hillard]

347986Well it has been a year or better and I've just put the paint onto the final part of my Emmert U6 Vise. I'm 80 bucks poorer and much wiser. The biggest cost was getting the rear jaw back from the welding shop. There was a chunk of the rear jaw missing that looked like a dog bit it. Primer and Paint was @ 15 dollars and a spray bottle of DeGreaser for a couple dollars. Welding was 60 but they did a nice job on the repair. I'm now going to sit back and wait for the paint to harden up for a week and reassemble the creature.

I turned a nice white oak handle with a removeable knob and made a small knob for the taper adjustment lever. I made it from purpleheart and added a threaded brass insert into the knob. I decided to paint the vise a dark machine gray as i did not care for the greenish original color.

I've determined that the only thing that is missing is the tilting jaw insert (K13 casting number)

Once the Jaws and Hub dry up I'll post a picture of those as well.

Thank one and all for the advise and for the guidance.

[Ryan Mooney]

Hey looking sharp there! Congrats on sticking with it :)

[Jim Koepke]

Great work, persistence pays off.

jtk

[Eric Rimel]

Nice looking vise. I have one in parts sitting in a milk crate that needs some attention. I may have to dust off my wallet and start looking for a front angle adjuster so I can put it together.

[Walter Plummer]

Looks great. I am glad it worked out for you. They are great vises.

[Kim Hillard]

Thank you Ryan

[Kim Hillard]

Jim, I think if I had been persistent the work would have been completed 6 months ago. I was tired of the parts taking up horizontal surfaces of my shop. Thanks for the comment.

[Kim Hillard]

Eric, Thank you. Mine almost found a forever home 20 years ago ... under my workbench ... I finally said "it is going to be fixed or it is going away"

[Kim Hillard]

Walter, they are truly wonderful. I'll post a shot or two of the Jaws and Hub too. Thank you

[Kim Hillard]

348012348013348014So now that they are dry enough to handle without putting finger prints I took a few more unassembled shots. I did not paint the machined surfaces and wonder what others would recommend to apply to them to keep the rust away. Just oil seems like I'd be asking for finishing problems if I clamped my wooden projects with and oiled vise jaw.

[Mel Fulks]

I put some "never seize" stuff on the wear surfaces of mine once years ago. It's still quiet and easy to adjust.

[Kim Hillard]

Mel, i may have some of that hiding in my "run away from this locker if there is a fire" storage cabinet. I'll consider your advice and say Thank you too.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I've had a K-1 for several years and use it extensively. It excels at holding irregular shaped objects and is wonderful when you want to increase your working height by 6" by rotating the jaws to the vertical. For working surfaces I have 1 jaw covered with 1/8" thick cork/rubber and the other jaw with leather. Both are made in left and right pieces and held in place with flexible magnets sheet like the stuff they use for refrigerator advertising. I glued the magnet sheeting to the leather and the cork/rubber. The beauty is that this makes the jaw liners easily removable.

[Kim Hillard]

Dave, that sounds like a great idea. I can picture it on my vise. Thanks for the good tip.

[Jeff Bartley]

Great work Kim! That emmert looks fantastic.
Be sure to post up pics after you get it installed!

[Kim Hillard]

Jeff, you are too kind. It really does look better in person. I took the time to do some "port and polishing" of the raw rough casting slag spots. Areas around the dog holes were especially raggedy and I'm the type that if you are going to do something, do it right the first time. All coated with red primer first and a coat or two of dark machine gray. The original was kinda goolish-greenish. I will post assembled pictures later next week. My brother is coming for a visit on Saturday so I've saved putting it back together till then. It will give us a "project" to keep us out of the wives way. (If you know what I mean). Sometimes I call it a "kitchen pass"

[Kim Hillard]

Re-Assembly happened yesterday. I am sure glad it is back together again. The operation is silky smooth and now it is on to building a suitable bench for it. Any advice on mounting the Vise. i.e. Rear Jaw flush with the front edge of the bench or hinge flush with front edge of bench? Seems like the latter would be quite a bit easier, however348337 I do see the benefit of keeping the face of the rear jaw flush to the face of the bench.

[george wilson]

Rear jaw is always mounted sunk into the bench for its peripheral thickness (only the thickness of the rear jaw). It is also always mounted with the top edge of the rear jaw mounted flush.

Maybe someone with a Taiwan copy would post some pictures of mounting their vise. The Taiwan vises are smaller,but I think they mount the same way.

Many years ago I found one of those vises for $75.00 from an individual. It was rusty,but not as badly as yours. I ended up taking it back,and wish I hadn't ! Should have at least sand blasted it. But,at that time I didn't have access to a sand blasting cabinet. I could have cleaned it up and sold it for a lot more than I paid,at least! I don't know if I ever could have gotten it mounted to my 4" thick bench top. And,I just don't use that type of vise for guitar making anyway. I don't make much furniture.

Your effort has really paid off. You now have the king of vises! It is amazing how well metal things can clean up!

[Dave Anderson NH]

My vise is mounted with the rear jaw flush with the face of the bench. This requires a good bit of carving and fitting and will take quite some time on a thick bench top (mine is 3"). If you go this way I suggest disassembling the vise to make lighter work. A K-1 is about 75-80 pounds and gets tiring hefting it back and forth during the fitting. You will also need to do the carving and fitting BEFORE attaching the top to the base assembly since you will need to flip the top upside down several times during the fitting. Figure that a flush mount adds 3-5 hours to a vise installation. For me it was worth it and it is something you only have to do once.

The advantage of the recessed mounting is that you have a full length unobstructed face of the bench which aids in clamping long boards. The downside is both the extra work and the fact that to rotate the jaws to the vertical you must flip the vise up so that the jaws are parallel to the benchtop. and then do the rotation. It's a small PIA but it only take a minute.

Overall, you will absolutely treasure the Emmert no matter how you install it and will continuously discover new ways to use it.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Kim,

Here are a few pix of the install on my bench. The raised jaw cover is a cork rubber compound bonded to a flexible magnet348340348341348342348343348344 material.

[Kim Hillard]

George, I have a dilemma going on here. I'm currently diving headfirst into making my first acoustic steel string guitar. This Emmert vise project has eaten into the "get the guitar project started" time and this is where the conflict comes in. I don't want to carve away on my current bench to mount this vice which will subsequently lead me to create yet another bench just for the Emmert OR sell the restored vise and move onto the guitar work. I really have become attached to the vise now but like you mentioned, I may not need that kind for guitar work. AH what to do , what to do.

All that aside, thank you for the feedback and for the comments.

Kim

[Kim Hillard]

Dave, I was hoping to see your cork rubber magnet things. I really like that feature. I also can see where folks have to spend an enormous amount of time and effort to hog out the proper cavity for the vice. If I end up creating a dedicated new bench just for the Emmert, I will note your advise and not attach the top until the vise is fit-up properly.
Thanks for the pictures too. Yours looks well mounted and well cared for.
Best Regards,
Kim

[george wilson]

Kim,When I was in the Musical Instrument Maker's Shop,my workbench was oriented with the tail vise nearest to the front of the shop. So,for 16 years I used the tail vise for everything. For planing thin wood,I had the vise with the row of dogs. For small work,I used the tail vise,and then took 2 pieces of 4" x 4"x 8" wood. I drilled a hole through each of them on their 4" x 8" sides,and with long lag screws,bolted them down over the chops of my tail vise. Then,I could turn them at angles to hold tapers such as instrument necks,and tighten the lag screws.

At home,I mostly use the type of vise that Stewart MacDonald sells. It mounts on top of the bench,and has replaceable wooden jaws that can be swiveled to hold tapered work. When needed,I unbolt it to use my tail vise and dogs for planing thin tops and backs.

The type of vise i refer to is called a "Universal vise". Ulmia started making them as "Gun stocker's vises". The vise jaws swivel,as I mentioned. They got very expensive,then started to be made in Taiwan. The Taiwan made ones seem just as good as the German oner. I have both. I bought my German one back in the 60's for $40.00. They jumped to over $200.00 in the 80's(To heck with THAT!!!!). The Taiwan made ones are sold by Woodcraft. By now they are over $100.00,but we make more money by now.