Differences between cheap chisels & good chisels???

[Frederick Skelly]

I get it with hand planes because I've tried some poor quality ones that, even tuned up, weren't more than passable. There's casting quality, machining quality, blade mechanism quality and a myriad of "fit" issues that make a difference.

But I don't yet understand chisels.
* I own a set of Marples blue handle chisels for which I might have paid $40 for a set of 5. These are garden variety tools. Mass produced. Nothing unusual.
* I also own a set of the NAREX paring chisels.
I'm glad to have both sets. I use them often. Both sets take/keep a nice edge and they do everything I ask of them, from dovetail work to just tuning the way something fits.

What additional benefits/capabilities would I get by upgrading either set? Say I upgraded my Marples to an expensive set of LN's - what differences would I notice? (I realize that if I bought LVs PMV11, I'd get longer time between sharpenings.)

Can you teach me please? There have to be differences but I don't know what they are.

Thanks guys!
Fred

[John Kananis]

The Marples blue-handle chisels are pretty decent (especially the older ones with the white ring at the beginning of the handle) but the LN's hold an edge much much better - I've not used the PMV11. If you had both, you wouldn't hold the Marples in as high regard.

The other component is that LN's are good to go out of the 'box'. To a professional, earning a living working wood, time is money and spending a couple hours flattening chisels is not a productive happening - just hone and go.

[Matthew N. Masail]

to me the biggest difference is that cheap chisels have thick lands that are less then ideal. a fine chisel might (not always) have very fine or almost no lands that get in the way. if your happy with you Marples and want better clearance, you could always grind an angle on those lands, so in reality I don't see why you'd want to upgrade from a practical stand point. as far as edge retention goes, as long as it's not really low, just get faster and better at sharpening and you might not even notice. narex seem to hold a edge as well as you really need. I'm not convinced LN would hold an edge any better than the Narex do, but that's just a calculated guess not from experience.

handles are another thing. but expensive or cheap won't always mean better or worse for handles.

[Mike Henderson]

When you look at inexpensive chisels, you can examine new inexpensive chisels and you can examine antique chisels.

Many of the newer ones are pretty good. The machining is pretty good and the backs are pretty flat. The steel is often plain carbon steel but it is tempered fairly well.

Antique chisels are usually plain carbon steel but the quality is hit or miss. I never got an antique chisel that had a flat back. Our ancestors apparently never worried about that. And tempering is variable. Some antique chisels I got were soft and some were tempered properly.

Also, antique chisels seem to have been made much longer than modern chisels. Not good or bad, but something you may like or dislike.

In either case, plain carbon steel will not hold an edge as well as some of the modern steel that today's high priced chisels are made of (LN and LV). But our ancestors did some very good work with the chisels available to them and you can to. You just have to work what what you have (sharpen, or hone more often).

One exception to this is Japanese chisels which are laminated chisels. This allows the plain carbon steel of the cutting edge to be tempered much harder than non laminated chisels. This harder steel seems to hold an edge pretty well - maybe not a well as modern steel, but close.

Mike

[glenn bradley]

I also have a set of Marples; 6 for about $40 and it included a mallet at Costco 10 years ago or so. I still use them. As to differences, I touch up the Marples several times during a chiseling session. I touch up the Lee Valley PM-V11 chisels every few projects. Both require about the same effort to sharpen so the PM-V11 is worth it to me. Those who prefer O1 steel probably feel differently. It is a choice and as woodworkers we have so many ;-) If you don't want to start buying higher end chisels, don't try one out. They're like Lay's Potato Chips . . .

[Jim Koepke]

Some of my chisels are what may be considered cheap chisels. They usually have a handle more like an old wooden handled screwdriver and a ferrel to match. There isn't a bolster and they are rather thin. These may have been made for the need today and forget about it market. Usually these do not have any maker identification.

There are some chisels in my accumulation that were cheap, but should be considered inexpensive chisels. Some of these are very good chisels and were actually a good buy.

There are many chisels in my accumulation that I consider very good chisels and even if they are not made of as good a steel mix as some of the modern chisels they are fine for me.

If a chisel has trouble with chipping or can not hold an edge, then of course it isn't all that good of a tool.

For me a good chisel feels like it belongs in my hand. This is why socket chisels are my preferred chisel. If it doesn't feel good, a new handle is an easy thing to make.

Some of my chisels get used more often because they are the ones that feel like part of my hand.

A lot can be said for side bevels or composition of steel, but in the end it is the feel.

How many tools do you love that do not feel right in your hands?

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

If one wants a bit more to add to the confusion here is something Bob Smalser wrote years ago:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?13734-Wood-Chisel-Survey-for-Beginners-(Revised-For-The-Record)

jtk

[steven c newman]

I have had a few cheap chisels....got tired of them, basically threw a bunch away.....
Then a few yard sale finds came along.....Stanleys, Witherbys, Butchers, Muellers, Karpenter.....And a few others of that sort....Backs flattened roght out, edges stay sharp. Most are a bit on the OLD side of vintage...

Then, a trip to Aldis....Now have a set of four excellent chisels @ $7. Flatten the backs, honed the edges, and have been using them..a LOT, have yet to need to resharpen any of the four.

have enough of these vintage, and Aldi chisels that I might just sell the Yollew plastic handled Stanley wannabes.

I always keep an eye out for those older chisels when out on a rust hunt.. That is where my 1/8" Mortise chisel came from, for a $1.

[Brian Holcombe]

When you look at inexpensive chisels, you can examine new inexpensive chisels and you can examine antique chisels.

Many of the newer ones are pretty good. The machining is pretty good and the backs are pretty flat. The steel is often plain carbon steel but it is tempered fairly well.

Antique chisels are usually plain carbon steel but the quality is hit or miss. I never got an antique chisel that had a flat back. Our ancestors apparently never worried about that. And tempering is variable. Some antique chisels I got were soft and some were tempered properly.

Also, antique chisels seem to have been made much longer than modern chisels. Not good or bad, but something you may like or dislike.

In either case, plain carbon steel will not hold an edge as well as some of the modern steel that today's high priced chisels are made of (LN and LV). But our ancestors did some very good work with the chisels available to them and you can to. You just have to work what what you have (sharpen, or hone more often).

One exception to this is Japanese chisels which are laminated chisels. This allows the plain carbon steel of the cutting edge to be tempered much harder than non laminated chisels. This harder steel seems to hold an edge pretty well - maybe not a well as modern steel, but close.

Mike

Japanese chisels are available in alloys.

It's hard not to consider something like vacuum arc white steel #1 to be modern.

The major thing you hear about in Japanese chisels is 'cold forging', basically working the steel at low temperature to evenly distribute carbon. This is done at low temperatures so that carbon is not lost in the process, and the even distribution makes for very refined carbides. Very refined carbides make for an edge that can be made very sharp and will wear evenly.

I have a set of Yamahiro chisels that I received recently, I was intitially disappointed with them, but boy was I wrong. They had fine de-laminations showing at the extreme ends of the lamination. I assumed this to be poor quality, but it was in fact caused by the level of cold forging the chisel goes through. The result is that I can chop ten mortises through and through and never need anything more than light touch-up on a finish stone.

I have been very impressed with what plain carbon can do and how it wears.

[Mike Henderson]

Japanese chisels are available in alloys.

It's hard not to consider something like vacuum arc white steel #1 to be modern.

The major thing you hear about in Japanese chisels is 'cold forging', basically working the steel at low temperature to evenly distribute carbon. This is done at low temperatures so that carbon is not lost in the process, and the even distribution makes for very refined carbides. Very refined carbides make for an edge that can be made very sharp and will wear evenly.

I have a set of Yamahiro chisels that I received recently, I was intitially disappointed with them, but boy was I wrong. They had fine de-laminations showing at the extreme ends of the lamination. I assumed this to be poor quality, but it was in fact caused by the level of cold forging the chisel goes through. The result is that I can chop ten mortises through and through and never need anything more than light touch-up on a finish stone.

My knowledge of the steel used in the cutting edge of Japanese chisels is that it is generally either Blue Steel or White Steel. Blue Steel has certain alloy components (generally chromium, tungsten, and vanadium, in addition to carbon), while White Steel is primarily iron and carbon (different grades of each have different amounts of carbon).

Note that I never described either of these as modern or none-modern, only as carbon steel.

Having a fine distribution of the carbides and small carbides are key to a good edge and is the reason for powdered metal chisels, such as the LV PM-V11 chisels. The metal and carbon can be very fine and well mixed. To make the billet, the powdered metal is sintered resulting in very small carbides in the iron matrix. Other alloys may also be included in the original powdered metal to enhance certain characteristics.

In my experience, one of the major advantages of Japanese chisels is that they are harder, allowed by the laminated structure. Testing that I have done has indicated that they hold up very well, almost as well as some of the modern steel in western chisels. I haven't tested every brand of Japanese chisels so some may even do better in edge retention.

Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

Most are using white 1, 2 or blue 2, but some makers are usually proprietary alloys. Those that do use white 1 usually do so because of the higher carbon content, which they will cold work.

what have you tried?

i have tried Koyamaichi in blue and white 2, kikuhiromaru in white 1, Tasai (special blend of blue steel), Yamahiro in white 1 and ouchi in white 2.

those using white 1 and blue steel have really been impressive.

for modern western stuff I have used a2 and o1, I haven't tried pm v11, but the temptation is there :D

[David Bassett]

There is a lot of good experience already in this thread. Features, finish, steel, and heat treatment all affect price. I'm sure there is also some premium for the prestige labels. One thing I don't see mentioned is quality control. While an outstanding instance of a cheaper model may approach a more expensive model, how do the worst instances of the two models compare? I think comparing models based on their worst efforts is a better measure of their value when buying a random sample. We've all heard stories of the chisel that is chippy until it has been sharpened several times. Or the chisel that works fairly well out of the box and after the first sharpening, but then quickly tails off to useless. (Perhaps that's a more common story with wood turning tools, they cut more linear feet and gradients in steel quality would be seen more quickly.) Both of these examples are cases of poor quality control letting tools out with uneven heat treatment. I'm sure the same thing applies to the tool grinding. If the machine gets out of whack*, does the manufacture notice immediately, and throw out that piece, or do they not notice until after that batch, if at all? I'm guessing if (I know huge if) we could choose and examine the worst of 10K truly random pieces it would be clearer the value LV, LN, and other premium makers offer. Of course, budget is an issue for most of us and reworking slightly bad and discarding the truly atrocious pieces trades time for capital. I, as a beginner, find myself buying fewer more premium pieces because knowing it is my technique and not the tool causing my problems is valuable to me.

(* "out of whack" a technical term for any and all possible misalignments, misadjustments, and miscalibrations. :-) )

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys. This gave me the insight I was looking for. I appreciate your help!
Fred

P.S. The thread Jim K attached (post #7, above) by Bob Smalser from 2004 is excellent reading, for those like me that need/want the background. Thanks Jim.

[Derek Cohen]

What makes a good chisel?

Edge holding is one answer, but far from simple. But there are different types of edge holding: Holding at a low bevel angle for paring. Holding without chipping when chopping.

Then there is comfort and control in the hand. Is the chisel suited to being used with a hammer? Does it facilitate accuracy when pushed?

Design factors? For bench chisels used for dovetailing, are the lands small to get into angles? Do you get the blade flex you seek? Is the handle-blade balanced?

These are factors I looked at when reveiwing the Veritas O1 chisels: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview.html

Here is a comparison of different steels chopping end grain: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

More chopping: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselBladeTesting-5Steels.html

And paring: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselParing.html

Far too much information!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I use 19th century English chisels. I think they are the best available. Some collectors like a chisel that needs little work to get started, but for a professional like me the work to bring a tool into service is trivial when considering the lifetime of the tool. I don't brag about how quickly I can flatten a chisel back; it is a very occasional thing for someone more interested in how a chisel performs. Some of my chisels I have used for more than forty years.

I like a chisel with finely tapered tang and a real forged bolster. A lot of today's tangs are really blunt with barely a taper. I guess that is a manufacturing economy. The Blue Spruce and Lee Valley appear to be machined out of bar stock so not a real bolster. The Lee Valley tang has no taper at all; I have not seen the Blue Spruce tang. The Narex tang is very blunt,barely tapered. A fine taper is very helpful when fitting a new handle. The Lie Nielsen chisels appear again to be completely machined, not forged. Making chisels in a traditional style would be very expensive for today's manufacturers, but in 1796 an journeyman could buy a set of 16 cast steel chisels for not much more than two days wages.

All of my chisels have craftsman made handles. Two beech made by Adam Cherubini, one hickory made by a 19th century American, the rest beech made by me. I think it would be nice if manufacturers sold unhandled chisels as they did historically. Making and fitting the handles is a big part of the manufacturing expense. And a lot of the manufacturers have little idea of what makes a good handle.

[bridger berdel]

(* "out of whack" a technical term for any and all possible misalignments, misadjustments, and miscalibrations. :-) )


Generally rectified by applying some more whack.

[Derek Cohen]

I like a chisel with finely tapered tang and a real forged bolster. A lot of today's tangs are really blunt with barely a taper. I guess that is a manufacturing economy. The Blue Spruce and Lee Valley appear to be machined out of bar stock so not a real bolster. The Lee Valley tang has no taper at all; I have not seen the Blue Spruce tang. The Narex tang is very blunt,barely tapered. A fine taper is very helpful when fitting a new handle. The Lie Nielsen chisels appear again to be completely machined, not forged.

Warren, those are interesting, perhaps provocative, comments. Will you say more, explain why one is better than another in your opinion?

My understanding is that a forged tang, such as below, probably aids burning into a handle. Yes? And that their taper is instrumental in keeping the attachment firm.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Tangs/collection-2_zpsugrs2fvz.jpg

On the other hand, Japanese handles are not simply held by the tang. They are a combined tang and socket. In this regard their tang design cannot be compared with the forged tang above.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Tangs/000017739_zpsa1wvvqja.gif

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Tangs/chinesechisel1_zpsje9ruwfy.jpg

Now both the Veritas and the Blue Spruce are modelled on the Japanese chisel design. Here is the tang/socket combination of a pre-production Veritas I pulled apart ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Tangs/VeritasChiselReview_html_22f5784a_zpsnf91rziz.jpg

.. and Blue Spruce ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Tangs/Blue_Spruce_2_IMG_3377_zpseuhvp6ep.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

My Aldi chisel experience has been good, if not great. I use them in softer woods as stand-ins for my better chisels. They have less edge retention than premium chisels and slightly less than the good old Blue Chips, which I have owned for at least twenty years. I would characterize the Aldis as "tool box chisels". I actually have two more unopened sets of them since they were cheap, cheap, cheap. Vintage chisels are probably the best buy for the buck, if you can pay less than $15. for each. Many do not have good profiles for fine woodworking. You probably will need to replace the handles and do metal work on the sockets and blade backs. All of that is a mess and pain for some people. The bottom line for me is that it is easy to throw money away on mediocre tools that eventually lay hidden away in a drawer. My Lie-Nielsen chisels are all I use for dovetailing, which is 90% of my chisel use. I really could have just one set of utility chisels like those mentioned above and saved the money for other, more-needed tools.

[steven c newman]

The aldis? ARE the ones I use for dovetailing white oak.
321538
Never had an issue with them.

[Warren Mickley]

I don't remember if I have burned in a tang, but certainly not in the last 30 years. Blacksmiths like this method, but I don't think it is a historical method for woodworkers. I have looked for evidence of charring in old tools and not found it.

The advantage of a uniformly tapered tang is that a handle can be fitted without a lathe or jigs or machines. As the hole is made it can be altered as you go to line up the tool with the handle. The tang does not even have to be straight in line with the blade of the chisel in order to line things up. And if the handle becomes loose you can tighten it up by removing 1/32 or so from the length of the handle. With a tang that is straight or poorly tapered, once it is loose you need adhesive or something to tighten. With a tapered tang it is also easy to loosen the handle and put it back on.

I have never owned a Japanese chisel. I have assumed that the tang is not tapered, that it is some trouble to make a handle and a tang hole without a lathe. I would be very interested in seeing a Japanese chisel made before 1760.

[Rob Luter]

One more opinion for the heap........

I have two sets of chisels.

1) A set of Irwin/Marples English Blue Handles I got at a Rockler store. They were inexpensive. These were nowhere near flat on the backs and were fairly rough with respect to machining. After a good tuning up they are serviceable and hold an edge okay if sharpened with a steeper angle (30 degrees or greater). If I try a 25 degree angle the edge gives up on anything but soft pine. I use these for rough work.

2) A set of LN A2 Socket Chisels. These were all but perfect when received. They were flat and finely machined. They hold an edge at 25 or 30 degrees no matter what wood I'm working with. The bevels on the sides are sharp and great for dovetails. These are exceptional chisels. No complaints except the price. That said, they were worth it. They're a fine set of tools worthy of heirlooms.

I'm glad I have both. They both are very useful, just in different ways.

[Jim Koepke]

Generally rectified by applying some more whack.

Back in the days of tube TVs, they often went out of whack. We would just apply a few whacks on the side to get it back in whack.

jtk