Looking for upgrade advice.

[Jacob John]

Good morning everyone,

Like the title says, after only a few months of owning my Epilog 35w, we're considering an upgrade. While I love my Epilog, and will keep it and continue to use it, the realization has set in that I feel the need, the need, for speed!

In engraving some items, I've very visibly noticed how much time it's taking, and 35w just isn't cutting it (pun intended).

So I'm looking for advice on both pre-owned and new lasers, would like to stick with the major 3 brands, and am trying to determine what wattage I should consider. There are a few ULS pre-owned systems from 75w to 150w, for instancethe PLS6.150, in 75w and 150w (cost difference of about $7,000. However, like I said I'm not brand loyal even though I love the Epilog I have now.

I want to make sure that I have enough power so that this isn't an issue as we continue to increase orders. We're engraving mainly household wood products. Thanks!

Edit: Forgot to add, I'd like to increase my working area as well.

[Tim Bateson]

There are a number of recent threads on this subject. You will get a huge range of opinions on this subject. My best advice is do a lot of research, then talk to each of the machine reps. A deal I'd get in my area may not be the best deal you can get in yours.

[Jacob John]

Thanks Tim, I've done some searching before making this post, but what I'm finding in threads seems more related to tube upgrades. I'm looking for advice on how to best increase my engraving speeds for wood engraving. I know that there comes a point where increased power would be major overkill, but I'm not sure where that wattage point is. I'm thinking 75w for what we do, and it would be a considerable power upgrade from our 2007 35w Epilog Mini.

Thanks!

[Braden Todd]

Do you have the book/manual that came with your epilog? If you do, or if you can download one online it has all of the power and speed settings for their machines. I'd suggest looking at it and see what power level achieves 100% speed. From there you'll have an idea of what power is needed and what's just extra.

Good luck!

[Jay Selway]

Depends on the detail of the engraving. If you are doing pretty simple line art and text, you can probably get away with dropping your raster resolution to speed things up. Different wood species require different power and speed settings and focus settings. For example cherry I can run at 100/100 and get a great engraving. But for a darker wood, like walnut, I'll often increase the resolution to 1200 dpi, and slow the speed down to 70 or 80. That creates a very dark engraving, which contrasts nicely with the dark nature of walnut. For softer woods like basswood, I'll usually drop the DPI and keep the speed at 100.

I run on a helix 24, with 50w. Most of the time I'm blasting things at 600dpi with 100power and 100speed. I do mostly art pieces though so the engraving quality is paramount.

[Glen Monaghan]

I don't think there is any simple answer to your question for a variety of reasons. One, your concept of what's too slow due to lower wattage versus what's overkill due to raw cost or perceived reduction in cost-benefit analysis is very personal. Another is what effect you are trying to achieve and how you are going about it. You said you were engraving wood products but didn't describe your process or the effect you are going for. Higher power and speed will change the engraving so you may have to change your process. For example, I used to engrave hundreds of a particular wood item each month and relied on low power/slow speed to attain a particular depth with a dark "toasted" mark for nice contrast effect. Any attempt to increase speed required higher power to get the depth needed but then the wood vaporized without creating the dark marking that I needed. I finally made the decision to change my work flow, engraving 10 times faster with sufficiently higher power to attain the same depth, and then using a contrast agent after engraving (usually applied while additional items are being engraved, so not as big an increase in overall time required as it might seem). Despite the extra processing, I was able to get a major increase in my throughput with the current engraver. If you are engraving something like a cutting board, then you have to figure on using a food safe coloring agent if you do this. The species of wood you use will have a major impact on this... I hate engraving red oak because it's hard to get a good burn and the grain structure makes it uneven regardless, while cherry has consistently given me excellent engraving. Something like baltic birch can be all over the map, even within the same sheet of wood, some areas may engrave with great contrast and other areas with almost no contrast.

You'd be wise to schedule some tests with the different vendors to engrave a sampling of your items with your designs and empirically determine how much wattage they can effectively employ at speeds that produce acceptable quality, and determine what price point you are willing to take. From everything I've seen, a Trotec likely will be able to engrave faster at a given power than a ULS or Epilog before quality suffers too much due to mechanical reasons, but what is the cost differential? Similarly, you likely could make use of a more powerful laser tube in a Trotec running at the maximum acceptable speed but, again, what is your cost-benefit tradeoff? Only you can determine what is to your best advantage.

But don't overlook the myriad of other factors that may tip the balance one way or another. Your personal disposition and your familiarity with Epilogs could make learning Trotec's JCL a major pain that you aren't willing to undergo, or Trotec's work flow may provide features that motivate you to change brands, or ULS may offer you such a great deal that you can't refuse, etc.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Figure out what size you want and then get the most power you can afford. I would think going over 100W would likely be overkill. If you simply purchased a 75W Epilog, you'd probably see your production capacity double, and that's without talking about table size, which also has a big impact in production.

I can say I bought a used ULS machine about a year ago and it was not a positive experience and after running it daily, I wouldn't recommend it to others. I wouldn't say I would tell you to avoid the machine, but I think the overall quality of the machine is disappointing.

[Guy Hilliard]

If your only consideration is engraving speed and your maximum engraving size is 12" X 12" (or less) then you are barking up the wrong tree. For the fastest engraving speed in a limited size no general purpose flying optics machine will come even close to a laser with a galvo head. An engraving that takes 5 minutes on a Trotec Speedy 300 / 400 (generally believed to be the fastest general purpose engravers) will be done in seconds with a similarly powered galvo laser. What galvo lasers suck at however is cutting and larger area engraving.

[Jacob John]

If your only consideration is engraving speed and your maximum engraving size is 12" X 12" (or less) then you are barking up the wrong tree. For the fastest engraving speed in a limited size no general purpose flying optics machine will come even close to a laser with a galvo head. An engraving that takes 5 minutes on a Trotec Speedy 300 / 400 (generally believed to be the fastest general purpose engravers) will be done in seconds with a similarly powered galvo laser. What galvo lasers suck at however is cutting and larger area engraving.

Thank you, Guy. I've been thinking about a fiber galvo since I've been receiving lots of knife and gun requests, but I'm definitely concerned about larger engraving areas. Right now, one of my projects (a 15" x 11" piece of beechwood) takes around 20 minutes to engrave at 100 power/35 speed/600 dpi. My return is still worth the project, but I really need to knock these out in 5 minutes if possible.

[Bill George]

I would experiment as suggested by dropping the resolution a bit in the laser set up. I did on my ULS and it greatly increased the speed by just reducing a small amount.

[Jacob John]

I would experiment as suggested by dropping the resolution a bit in the laser set up. I did on my ULS and it greatly increased the speed by just reducing a small amount.

I'll definitely give that a shot. I also have a few calls in to get estimates on a new laser. I still want a main and backup, so this would still be part of my overall plan to have some redundancy. I just don't know which ones to consider. Thanks!

[Bert Kemp]

I think every thing I read here says trotec is the fastest for engraving. with the exception of the glavo but trotec's are pricey. You could send a piece of what you do to each mfg with your spec for engraving and have them tell you how long it takes.

[Keith Outten]

Jacob,

The Trotec Speedy 300 and 400 machines are hard to beat. Their 5G acceleration is a principle reason why they are so fast and the Trotec software is second to none IMO. You should also consider the ceramic tubes to be a major advantage over the life of the machine, something that no other manufacturer is offering to the best of my knowledge.

I'm a Trotec fan so take that into consideration concerning my opinion. I have owned an Epilog and a Chinese laser in the past and operated a Xenetech for many years.
The metrics of engraving the same job (ADA Signs) tens of thousands of times over several years:

Epilog 35 watt = 25 minutes
Xenetech 60 watt = 12 minutes
Trotec 75 watt = 4 minutes
Trotec 80 watt = 3 minutes

[Jacob John]

I think every thing I read here says trotec is the fastest for engraving. with the exception of the glavo but trotec's are pricey. You could send a piece of what you do to each mfg with your spec for engraving and have them tell you how long it takes.

It's why I'm so tempted to get a fiber galvo, but don't they really not do as well as CO2's for wood products? My conundrum is that I want to expand too into metals, but I also would like to make my 35w that backup to whatever new laser I end up purchasing.

[Jacob John]

Jacob,

The Trotec Speedy 300 and 400 machines are hard to beat. Their 5G acceleration is a principle reason why they are so fast and the Trotec software is second to none IMO. You should also consider the ceramic tubes to be a major advantage over the life of the machine, something that no other manufacturer is offering to the best of my knowledge.

I'm a Trotec fan so take that into consideration concerning my opinion. I have owned an Epilog and a Chinese laser in the past and operated a Xenetech for many years.
The metrics of engraving the same job (ADA Signs) tens of thousands of times over several years:

Epilog 35 watt = 25 minutes
Xenetech 60 watt = 12 minutes
Trotec 75 watt = 4 minutes
Trotec 80 watt = 3 minutes

Wow! Thanks for this information. That's what I've been looking for, for comparison. I've contacted both Epilog and Trotec to get some quotes, and the 75w is what I'm looking at fir both machines. To take my production time from 20 to 3-4 minutes would be insane. Thanks again!

[Keith Winter]

Wow! Thanks for this information. That's what I've been looking for, for comparison. I've contacted both Epilog and Trotec to get some quotes, and the 75w is what I'm looking at fir both machines. To take my production time from 20 to 3-4 minutes would be insane. Thanks again!

Jacob keep in mind he's doing Ada signs you're doing wood according to your first post. Your mileage will vary greatly.

[Jacob John]

Jacob keep in mind he's doing Ada signs you're doing wood according to your first post. Your mileage will vary greatly.

Definitely understood, but I think it gives me a basic benchmark to compare. I know that I can definitely bring down these engraving speeds with another machine. I think I have a good plan, so that I can have my older machine as a backup, the trick is to pull the trigger on a new one! :)

The fiber galvo may have to wait as I further expand.

[Braden Todd]

I have an Epilog 75 watt ext, if you need any time comparisons let me know. Also, not sure if I missed it but what dpi are you running?

[Jacob John]

I have an Epilog 75 watt ext, if you need any time comparisons let me know. Also, not sure if I missed it but what dpi are you running?

Thanks Braden! I'm running at 600dpi and the product is a 15" x 11" piece of beechwood plank. The images vary, but in almost all instances take up roughly 75% of the surface area. We take special requests on images, which is why it varies, but almost all of them run at about 20 minutes per engraving.

[Kev Williams]

My advice is going to run a bit different from most of the above, and many may not agree but--

If you need speed, what you DON'T need is to spend ludicrous sums of money on one faster machine. What you really need is to spend affordable sums of money on TWO MORE lower priced machines. The simple fact is, two 150 inch-per-second Trotec's cannot produce the same amount of work that three lower priced 70 inch per second machines can. Food for thought: At the moment you need another machine because you're waiting on the one you have, correct? ANY second machine is going to effectlvely double your production. But is that faster machine going to be that much faster than your Epilog? The fact you have two machines will help immensely more than the fact one of them is faster than the first one.

Back in the late 80's we had 2 Concept 2000's and a big Vanguard 5000XT machine. Then around '95 I was getting calls for cylinder work so I bought our V3400 cylinder machine. But even then, I was sitting around playing Wolfenstein and flying virtual airplaines on the computer while waiting for machines to finish jobs. There were much faster servo-controlled machines available, but doing jobs faster wasn't the issue as much as doing SECOND and THIRD jobs at ANY speed-- The fact was, being able to get job #2 and Job #3 running was more important than getting job #1 done FASTER.

So here I am today with 4 laser engravers and 9 CNC rotary engravers, and while some machines are unique in job capabilities, it's a rare day that I have to wait for a machine to finish before I can put another job on it. But recently those rare days were occurring more often, and that's exactly why I bought Gary's old GCC laser, because I only had one laser that would do rotary work, and I had rotary jobs piling up for it, plus the fact I had regular jobs backing up for it too. Since then, any laser job I've had in the house, I can run when I want to, not when I'm able to... :)

Just last night I commented to the wife that even though I was running jobs on 7 machines, it seemed like nothing was getting done! But in fact I was getting a LOT done! And no time for Wolfenstein these days! ;)

And finally, you mention you're doing wood- For a 3rd machine I'd highly recommend a high power Chinese machine. I've said this many times here, that my 80w Triumph will run circles around any of my 40w and lower machines for doing wood, even though it's ridiculously slow. An 80w western machine will do just as well and better I admit, but my Triumph cost 1/8 of what one Trotec costs.

[Keith Outten]

Jacob,

Laser engraving wood would be much faster then my metrics for engraving Corian because you should be able to run at 100% power. In order to engrave Corian to the depth I needed for ADA signs I had to slow the 75 watt Trotec down.

Kev, I'm not sure that your suggestion to run multiple machines would always produce an improvement in productivity with only one operator. Jobs with long run times might be the exception but for short runs it would be difficult to run multiple machines, for me anyway. I know that when I was engraving ADA signs 40 hours per week at 3 to 4 minutes of run time that was barely enough time to adjust my next drawing and send it to the machine before it was time to change the sign blank.

When we purchased the Trotec at CNU we were running our Xenetech 60 watt machine 40 hours per week and falling behind schedule. We decided to buy the Trotec and run both machines in an effort to catch up, however after a month we shut down the Xenetech because the Trotec was 66% faster and we were already ahead of schedule and gaining ground with every shift with just one machine. Since I left CNU the Xenetech laser has never been used, its a paperweight now which is unfortunate, nobody wants to run the machine anymore.

[Jerome Stanek]

Definitely understood, but I think it gives me a basic benchmark to compare. I know that I can definitely bring down these engraving speeds with another machine. I think I have a good plan, so that I can have my older machine as a backup, the trick is to pull the trigger on a new one! :)

The fiber galvo may have to wait as I further expand.

But you also have to take into consideration that they are different powers with the fastest being the highest power.

[Ross Moshinsky]

"The best" is not the same for everyone. I've yet to see budget mentioned. You haven't mentioned if there is anything else involved in the process. What kind of space do you have available?

If you're running out of a facility with lots of free space, multiple machines might make a hell of a lot of sense. If space is very valuable, you want one machine that can really put out the product. If you take your engraved piece and have to do work afterwards, you might find although the engraving time has improved, you're production flow is thrown off.

[Jacob John]

"The best" is not the same for everyone. I've yet to see budget mentioned. You haven't mentioned if there is anything else involved in the process. What kind of space do you have available?

If you're running out of a facility with lots of free space, multiple machines might make a hell of a lot of sense. If space is very valuable, you want one machine that can really put out the product. If you take your engraved piece and have to do work afterwards, you might find although the engraving time has improved, you're production flow is thrown off.

I have enough space for an additional last, but that's pretty much it. Budget is still a discussion point because I'm financing, so it will depend on what Epilog and Trotec present for the working area and wattage. I looked at my previous quotes and I think for a 75w system, I'll be close to my price point. Also, once these pieces are engraved, they're immediately shipped. No additional work beyond packaging.

[Jacob John]

Just to update the thread, I'm about to make a jump on a Speedy 300, and I'm trying to talk myself out of it. Someone help! :)

[Gary Hair]

Just to update the thread, I'm about to make a jump on a Speedy 300, and I'm trying to talk myself out of it. Someone help! :)

Don't do it, you'll regret the Speedy 300. You'll be much happier with a Speedy 400... Is that the help you wanted???

[Jacob John]

Don't do it, you'll regret the Speedy 300. You'll be much happier with a Speedy 400... Is that the help you wanted???

That doesn't help! :) The 300 will fit my needs and future needs for a while. I'm really excited about it, and hopefully will have some good news to report next week.

[Keith Outten]

Jacob,

Don't forget to ask the Trotec Rep about the SawMill Creek discount.....

[Mike Null]

My 300 is now 9 years old and I have never regretted it for a minute. There really isn't a better product on the market.

[Jacob John]

Jacob,

Don't forget to ask the Trotec Rep about the SawMill Creek discount.....



My 300 is now 9 years old and I have never regretted it for a minute. There really isn't a better product on the market.

It's like purchasing your first new car. I can't wait to unbox a new laser that I know is going to reduce our production times, much higher wattage, work area , etc. and a reasonably priced investment. Can't wait to post pics!

[Kev Williams]

Just noticed we're talking about cutting a 20 minute job down to 3-4 minutes with a Trotec... in wood? Someone's gonna have to prove this one to me! :)

pure math says that at 30 ips, running a 10" x 10" x 400 line per inch area will take 22.22 minutes, and at 140 ips that cuts down to 4.7 minutes... but that's in a perfect world!

For one, a machine running 30 ips is probably much closer to an ACTUAL 30 ips rate than a 140 ips machine, regardless of how fast it can change direction.

For another, the only way you can ever achieve this is if the 140 ips machine can duplicate the results of the 30 ips machine at full speed. In many materials, this is do-able with 60 watt hi-speed machine. 80 is better, but I'm thinking you're going to need closer to 120 watts or more to duplicate a 35 watt/30ips engraving at 140 inches per second, particularly in wood.

Note!! >>this is purely conjecture, based on my experiences with 4 different lasers. I know this to be true: my 40 watt 72 ips machine running 100 power and speed will barely mark a piece of wood at all. Math says an 80 watt 140 ips machine would do exactly the same- however, I realize laser output isn't necessarily linear (Dave will explain! ;) )

An 80w Trotec or similar may very well cut HALF the time or slightly more off a 20 minute wood job, but IMO you'll need a lot more than 80 watts to cut the time by 80%...

[Jacob John]

Just noticed we're talking about cutting a 20 minute job down to 3-4 minutes with a Trotec... in wood? Someone's gonna have to prove this one to me! :)

pure math says that at 30 ips, running a 10" x 10" x 400 line per inch area will take 22.22 minutes, and at 140 ips that cuts down to 4.7 minutes... but that's in a perfect world!

For one, a machine running 30 ips is probably much closer to an ACTUAL 30 ips rate than a 140 ips machine, regardless of how fast it can change direction.

For another, the only way you can ever achieve this is if the 140 ips machine can duplicate the results of the 30 ips machine at full speed. In many materials, this is do-able with 60 watt hi-speed machine. 80 is better, but I'm thinking you're going to need closer to 120 watts or more to duplicate a 35 watt/30ips engraving at 140 inches per second, particularly in wood.

Note!! >>this is purely conjecture, based on my experiences with 4 different lasers. I know this to be true: my 40 watt 72 ips machine running 100 power and speed will barely mark a piece of wood at all. Math says an 80 watt 140 ips machine would do exactly the same- however, I realize laser output isn't necessarily linear (Dave will explain! ;) )

An 80w Trotec or similar may very well cut HALF the time or slightly more off a 20 minute wood job, but IMO you'll need a lot more than 80 watts to cut the time by 80%...

When I asked the Trotec rep, he said 3-4 minutes was not going to happen, but more realistically probably in the 8-9 minute range. He offered to have Trotec set up the job and test for the exact numbers, but I'm comfortable with even a 50% reduction at this point. I'm getting bombarded with Christmas orders (NO COMPLAINING!), but the realization that I need another laser has set in. I could be done with my daily orders in only a few hours as opposed to 12 hours a day!

Again, no complaints, and to be honest the Trotec Speedy has always been my dream laser purchase so I'm making it happen! :D

[Keith Outten]

My metrics are dead on accurate over five years and thousands of signs on each machine, and I probably have more production time using a Trotec than the majority of their company reps. I have also engraved a substantial amount of wood over the years but not enough repetitive jobs to provide the level of accuracy that I can using Corian. Even so wood generally takes less time to engrave than hard plastics like Corian and achieve the depth necessary for ADA signs.

Check our archives, there are some very interesting threads concerning Trotec performance.

[Jacob John]

Well, it's official! I am a Trotec Speedy 300 owner! Waiting on it to come in right now! I'll post some pics once I get her unboxed and set up. Looking forward to comparing engraving times versus what I have going on right now. I'll sadly be putting my workhorse Epilog up for sale. She has served me admirably.

[Jack Clague]

Well, it's official! I am a Trotec Speedy 300 owner! Waiting on it to come in right now! I'll post some pics once I get her unboxed and set up. Looking forward to comparing engraving times versus what I have going on right now. I'll sadly be putting my workhorse Epilog up for sale. She has served me admirably.

congrats, you will love it, i know i love mine.

[Bert Kemp]

Congrate on the new speedy but I'd think twice about selling your epilog. Its always nice to have back up. Ya never know.



Well, it's official! I am a Trotec Speedy 300 owner! Waiting on it to come in right now! I'll post some pics once I get her unboxed and set up. Looking forward to comparing engraving times versus what I have going on right now. I'll sadly be putting my workhorse Epilog up for sale. She has served me admirably.

[Kev Williams]

The minute you sell your Epilog, the next minute you'll need it and wish you still had it. :)

I was going to sell my little 25w ULS to my BIL as soon as I got the Explorer I bought from Gary up and running. That was almost 3 months ago and I still have it, because I keep finding work for it!

[Gary Hair]

The minute you sell your Epilog, the next minute you'll need it and wish you still had it. :)

I was going to sell my little 25w ULS to my BIL as soon as I got the Explorer I bought from Gary up and running. That was almost 3 months ago and I still have it, because I keep finding work for it!

If it weren't for the fact that I have a fiber (second one arrives any day now) for backup I would never have thought of selling the Explorer. I do miss that machine though...