LN Honing Guide

[ken hatch]

I must be missing something but.....

I bought the LN honing guide to help keep my pig stickers square. No joy, the guide mortise jaws are 12mm from the guide to the top lip on the mortise jaw and the pig stickers are 15mm to 18mm in the area where the guide needs to clamp. Doesn't matter how you hold your tongue best I can tell it ain't gonna work. I love my pig stickers but maybe I should try one of the LN mortise chisels, they look very pretty and I like Hornbeam handles on chisels.

Well, I had LN send a couple or three of their mortise chisels out to the desert Southwest and best I can tell the 1/2" one doesn't fit the guide either. Here is a photo of the guide, you may be able to see that from the step on the bottom of the guide to the top lip is 12mm, the LN chisel is very close to 13mm. I know us guys in the metric world have a hard time with imperial measurement but....Last time I checked 13mm is greater than 12mm. Like I said, I must be missing something and once I find what it is I guess I'll have another "never mind" moment.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/honingGuidewithMortiseChisel20150913_zpskz4pef80.j pg

What am I missing?

ken

[Joe Bailey]

What am I missing?

ken

The ability to sharpen freehand?

All kidding aside, this is the second "review" I've read, of this long-awaited product, in which the reviewer discovers that this jig, despite a plethora of jaws, cannot handle everything thrown at it.

[Mike Henderson]

I've always sharpened pigstickers freehand. Well, I may establish the primary bevel on a grinder, but the real edge is set freehand.

Mike

[ken hatch]

I've always sharpened pigstickers freehand. Well, I may establish the primary bevel on a grinder, but the real edge is set freehand.

Mike

Mike,

I do not like a hollow grind on mortise chisels.

The wider chisels are not bad but the 1/4" one is tough (for me) to keep square and the bevel flat. I had hoped the LN guide would help. BTW, I understand LN will make custom jigs, if they do I may order one that will handle a 20mm thick iron.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Ken,

I've actually been having success with the eclipse jig with non-pig sticker mortise chisels. I'm surprised that this doesn't work with the new jig.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Ken

I am please that you posted this as I have had thoughts along the lines of getting the mortice attachment for my LN guide, however I use RI chisels and LN state that that match is not recommended. I use a 35 degree secondary bevel on a 20 degree primary, which can be freehanded, especially if you use a rounded bevel method (just set a sliding bevel alongside as a guide). Alternately, make a wedge at this angle ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Mortice%20chisel/Mortice-guide1_zps1m02rbss.jpg

I digress.

I did use the basic LN guide with my RIs ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Honing%20Guides/Guide5_zpsldfujqjg.jpg

It works well enough but this is not a perfect idea since there is the risk of lifting the chisel if you apply too much downforce (which is the risk of all side clamping guides with tall chisel sides). The Eclipse is in the same boat.


the guide mortise jaws are 12mm from the guide to the top lip on the mortise jaw and the pig stickers are 15mm to 18mm in the area where the guide needs to clamp.


Here is my idea for the LN guide plus mortice accessory: add spacers under the screws to lift the front 3mm and the rear 6mm.

Give it a try and report back. Also, which mortice chisels (and sizes) are you using?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

Contact Lie-Nielsen customer service if you have the problem Ken is referring to. You will be exchanging jaws with them at no cost.

[Jebediah Eckert]

2x. Email LN or give them a call, great customer service. I'm pretty sure they say the guide is specifically made for their tools but may work with others. I would be surprised if they make a mortise attachment that doesn't work with their mortise chisels. None of it makes sense but I haven't tried it myself yet.

[Mike Brady]

The problem is that the first jaws they produced do not quite fit the 1/2" LN mortise chisel. They will replace those. They are not saying that they fit all mortise chisel from other makers. Never did. Overall, the Lie-Nielsen honing guide is in a class by itself. I have disposed of my others.

[ken hatch]

Never mind but do. Playing around more with the 1/2" LN mortise chisel I find it will fit, I'm not sure I like the way it fits but....Here is a photo:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/honingGuidewith13mmMortiseChisel20150914_zpsbwhxmy 1t.jpg

You should be able to see it is held in place by the top and bottom corners of the jig.

Here is a photo of one of the smaller chisels:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/honingGuidewith9mmMortiseChiselSide20150914_zpsdon fjnvx.jpg

It is held in place by the sides and the upper lip, which is how I would expect the larger chisels to be held.

ken

[ken hatch]

Contact Lie-Nielsen customer service if you have the problem Ken is referring to. You will be exchanging jaws with them at no cost.

Good to know....I had planned on a call today anyway.

ken

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken

I am please that you posted this as I have had thoughts along the lines of getting the mortice attachment for my LN guide, however I use RI chisels and LN state that that match is not recommended. I use a 35 degree secondary bevel on a 20 degree primary, which can be freehanded, especially if you use a rounded bevel method (just set a sliding bevel alongside as a guide). Alternately, make a wedge at this angle ...



I digress.

I did use the basic LN guide with my RIs ..

It works well enough but this is not a perfect idea since there is the risk of lifting the chisel if you apply too much downforce (which is the risk of all side clamping guides with tall chisel sides). The Eclipse is in the same boat.

Here is my idea for the LN guide plus mortice accessory: add spacers under the screws to lift the front 3mm and the rear 6mm.

Give it a try and report back. Also, which mortice chisels (and sizes) are you using?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I use mostly RI up to the 1/2" one with a few older pig stickers as well. Like you I've found the standard jaw will work if you are careful. The mortise jaw, not at all, it's a shame because the mortise jaw is too short to work with most of my Japanese chisels as well. I had hopes it would, it could be very useful for re-establishing a flat bevel on the Japanese chisels.

Back to the same old same old. Not a problem but I'm usually on the lookout for a better way and hoped this would be one. I expect spacers would work, just not sure it would be worth the trouble to make.

ken

[ken hatch]

Ken,

I've actually been having success with the eclipse jig with non-pig sticker mortise chisels. I'm surprised that this doesn't work with the new jig.

Brian,

I had high hopes it would at least work with my Japanese mortise chisels (IIRC you use Japanese mortise chisels) if not with the pig stickers. But no joy with mine.

It's a nice jig, if you can use the Eclipse on your chisels it should work and it is a huge step up.. Is it worth 10X the money...depends on how much you like your money.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

All of my Japanese chisels that taper in thickness as they progress toward the shank are not capable of being held in the eclipse either. Derek, you have the Krell jig, have you tried it with Japanese bench chisels?

Paring chisels and Japanese mortise chisels haven't been a problem for me, but some of my bench chisels have been.

I think an ideal for the LN jig would be the height of the mortise jaws with the length of the long jaws….but like they said, they were designing this around LN product.

* just read your latest reply.

Thanks Ken, I may pick it up in the near future. My only real complaint with the eclipse is that the blades can slip upward, which is pretty annoying, especially on a high grit stone.

[Derek Cohen]

The very best honing guide for mortice chisels and Japanese chisels - it was designed with Japanese chisels in mind - is the Sharp Skate. this is a side sharpening guide designed by Harrelson Stanley.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Mortice%20chisel/SS1_zpsaxiohmpy.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Mortice%20chisel/SS2_zpsejixzwtd.jpg

Absolutely secure with deep mortice chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

The Kell #1 is too narrow for wider bench chisels. I bought it for mortice chisels. It sucks - difficult to hold and difficult to determine the angle.

The only chisels I use a guide on are mortice chisels. Otherwise I freehand everything.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. I only know what i see in the picture about that type of mortice chisel and the same regarding the LN honing guide - but just a thought. (i'm by the way inclined to think that it's a possibly tall order to hope that a single honing guide will cover all requirements - all it takes is such a tiny variation in a tool to mess things up - but the detachable blocks on the LN at least open the way to DIY jaws for special needs)

So far as i can see the PS type mortice chisel tapers in two directions - the sides are relieved to the rear for clearance (??), and the top tapers down towards the tip. Note i'm cautiously suggesting that the sides taper as some mortice chisels i think may be parallel.

Presuming that these chisels do have a double taper then the auxiliary set of jaws in Ken's photos (even if the available height under them is increased to fit the chisel) still may not do a great job of holding one. The issue may be that even if the chisel is mounted so that either its flat back aligns on the top surface of the body of the guide, or the top on the step in the auxiliary jaws it may (unless it simultaneously contacts both together) permit the chisel to end up tipping a little sideways in the jig. Which would take the flat back out of the horizontal/alignment with the stone surface. The possibility is compounded by the radiused top surface on the Iles chisel.

i.e. It may be possible to get one or other of these chisels to clamp in correct alignment by holding the flat back or the top tight against one or other reference surface as it's tightened up, but it's not because of the double taper in fixturing terms self aligning.

It'd help if the chisel was aligned from the flat back of the blade - perhaps using some sort of clamp holder a la Veritas Mk 2 honing guide. A semicircular section cross bar could be added on the side of the clamp bearing on the tapered top if needed, although likely not.

I'm not recommending the Mk 2 Veritas guide for this job because the stock powder coated clamping faces are quite slippery and would likely lead to the chisel yawing to one side or the other while honing. Mine is modded with the diamond nail file faced high grip jaws i posted about last year though, and in that form handled some Japanese (Matsumura) mortice chisels without any problem. Right down to 3mm wide Japanese dovetail and oire nomi actually. It's still not self aligning though, as you have to line the chisel up accurately side to side in the clamp…

The narrow blade holding accessory jaws for the Mk 2 might do well on a mortice chisel too, hard to know without trying them out as they may or may not positively locate the blade off it's flat back.

[Brian Holcombe]

The very best honing guide for mortice chisels and Japanese chisels - it was designed with Japanese chisels in mind - is the Sharp Skate. this is a side sharpening guide designed by Harrelson Stanley.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Mortice%20chisel/SS1_zpsaxiohmpy.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Mortice%20chisel/SS2_zpsejixzwtd.jpg

Absolutely secure with deep mortice chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Hi Brian

The Kell #1 is too narrow for wider bench chisels. I bought it for mortice chisels. It sucks - difficult to hold and difficult to determine the angle.

The only chisels I use a guide on are mortice chisels. Otherwise I freehand everything.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek!

[ken hatch]

Hi Brian

The Kell #1 is too narrow for wider bench chisels. I bought it for mortice chisels. It sucks - difficult to hold and difficult to determine the angle.

The only chisels I (want to) use a guide on are mortice chisels. Otherwise I freehand everything.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, I added a small change to your quote. Otherwise that's my approach :-).

BTW, just off the phone with LN....They are sending out a set of replacement mortise jaws. The replacement jaws will fix the LN 1/2" problem but the RI will continue freehand. Not a biggie but would be nice to have a better way.

ken

P.S. Is the Side Skate still sold?