Dovetails, Machine or by Hand

[Chris Parks]

Some advocate that doing DT's by machine gives a boring look to the finished product because they are all exactly the same, yet the people who meticulously measure and cut DT's are in effect getting the same result, exact spacing, sizing etc so what is the difference apart from the satisfaction of the handwork. If doing them by hand why not just lay them out by eye, why bother measuring at all as you may as well use a template and router. I have pulled apart some older furniture over the years and no way were the DT's a work of art or even nice to look at in a lot of it.

[Frederick Skelly]

For me, it's exactly as you said - just "the satisfaction of handwork". I did read an article by Frank Klaus and he showed how to do them purely by eye. Of course he has about sixty years of experience doing so.

[Mike Henderson]

Most people who do hand cut dovetails leave a lot of variation in the dovetails. Actually, since they're hand cut, you get variation just for that reason. There are other things that tip off that dovetails are hand cut. One big one is the spacing between the tails. With hand cut, most people make that space small, too small to fit the shaft of a router bit.

Additionally, you use a marking gauge to mark the limit of the dovetails and that mark usually stays in the wood.

I think most experienced woodworkers could accurately identify hand cut dovetails over machine cut dovetails. Doesn't mean that non-woodworkers could.

There's a place for machine cut dovetails. Let's say you were making drawers for kitchen cabinets. You want the strength of dovetails, but kitchen cabinets are not heirloom items. Also, drawers in kitchen cabinets are standard sizes so once you set up the jig, you can run a lot of pieces.

But in a chest of drawers you don't have the same thing. The drawers are usually each a different size so the jig set up is a lot of work. And the chest of drawers may be an heirloom item that will stay in the family for generations. If any of your descendants learn woodworking, they will recognize the hand cut dovetails and that you were a good enough woodworker to make good dovetails (good dovetails require mastery of a number of woodworking tasks).

Mike

[Chris Parks]

Most people who do hand cut dovetails leave a lot of variation in the dovetails. Actually, since they're hand cut, you get variation just for that reason. There are other things that tip off that dovetails are hand cut. One big one is the spacing between the tails. With hand cut, most people make that space small, too small to fit the shaft of a router bit.
Mike

Some of those I have seen doing them by hand on YouTube have no variance in them at all, they are all exactly the same and it takes forever to lay them out measuring to the nearest thousandth of an inch. The only difference I can see is as you pointed out they can be finer by hand which is nicer to look at.

[Greg Cuetara]

Not sure if I am missing something here but why would you measure hand cut dovetails? I use my 1/4" chisel, the smallest I have, as a gage and also a 7 degree jig that I made, two pieces of wood attached at 90 deg with a 7 deg angle on both sides. I put the drawer side in the clamps and then put them about the 3rd points so that I have one on each end and two in the middle. No real rhyme or reason just where I feel like putting them. After I get the tails cut I put the board on top to mark the pins and cut them out, they end up where ever they do. The actual angle that I cut and or the location are all different and unique to each corner of a drawer. No two are the same.

These are not the most glamorous but I know I did them and am happy with them.

321373

If I had to do a kitchen I would buy a jig and go to town but a one off piece like this dresser I am happy to take the time and make it my own. Yes there a lot of satisfaction to go along with doing them on your own.

Greg

[Mike Henderson]

Some of those I have seen doing them by hand on YouTube have no variance in them at all, they are all exactly the same and it takes forever to lay them out measuring to the nearest thousandth of an inch. The only difference I can see is as you pointed out they can be finer by hand which is nicer to look at.
Yep, I've seen those also. But you don't have to do that. And most people who do a lot of dovetails (I suppose I'm one) are not that precise - you just don't need to be - takes too much time. If I'm just doing workman dovetails - dovetails that won't show - I leave a fair amount of room between tails. They're there for strength, not for show.

Workman - for example, putting the bottom on a chest of drawers. I use half blind dovetails so they won't show on the side and nobody ever looks under a chest of drawers.

Mike

[John T Barker]

I've worked in a shop that did hand cut dt's and nobody measured like that. This shop did some of the best work around so my preference goes with that. I think, just my opinion, that measuring the joint precisely shows ignorance of what joinery is about.

[Allan Speers]

The best reason to do them by hand is that you don't have to turn on a router. :D (or a dust collector.)

[Chris Parks]

The best reason to do them by hand is that you don't have to turn on a router. :D (or a dust collector.)

Ain't that the truth!! or buy the bits, the template, the router or ear defenders!

[Robert Engel]

I have tried Klauzs method of eyeballing with a little practice it works and its amazing how fast it is.
Matter of fact, I sold my router jig.
In the beginning it helps to have a DT marker just to train yourself to the angles and square.
If you get square right, the rest doesn't really matter.

Once you start doing them this way, all the layout stuff seems a bit anal.

The only reason for laying out perfectly spaced DT's would be in a carcase or something.

I guess if you had a production shop making up multiple copies of drawer sides and want universal fit, then a machine is best.

[Peter Quinn]

For me its wide tails, very narrow pins and what ever spacing I choose. I develop a quick layout so they are similar across any number of drawers, but its certainly not measured in .001" or anything close, I just don't like variations of more than 1/4" in spacing. I think there are jigs that allow you to set up a spacing that looks more like had cut if its a visual. Its only a fairly recent thing that people wanted to see the dovetails at all, moldings and cock bead on older work were intended to cover up all that ugly joinery! I use an automated machine at work to bang out dovetails on commercial casework, nobody wants to pay us the asking to mass produce as many drawers as we make by hand, and I don't care how fast you are this machine will kick your butt. But its noisy, and messy, and very boring visually to me. So in the home shop...I either make dovetails by hand or use a different joint for boxes.

[Chris Parks]

I think most of us are afraid to practise enough to get proficient without all the aids. The other issue of course is if you are not doing anything on a regular basis the skill level drops off.

[Jim Dwight]

Right now, I have no proper bench. To cut dovetails by hand, you need a way to hold the material and that would be a challenge. You also need at least pretty decent hand tools. Mine would be marginal, I fear. But the main reason I reach for the router jig is I am not patient enough to cut them by hand. To those that think they can cut dovetails by hand about as fast as by router, I would have to see it. Maybe through dovetails but not half blind ones. I usually do the backs too because once the jig is in position and the router is set up, cutting the joint is a pretty simple couple minute exercise. That just isn't true for hand cut. Skilled individuals can put them out at a reasonable pace but not what the same level of skill (or somewhat less) will achieve with a router. And the comparison wouldn't be great even if it was possible because hand cut dovetails depend on sharp tools that must be sharpened much more regularly than a carbide router bit. So the joint cutting ignoring the time spent keeping the tools working well wouldn't be the whole story.

I also accept speed isn't everything and I admire people with more patience and skill at hand cutting dovetails. But it just isn't for me.

[Tom M King]

Sometimes the job calls for either or.

[Mike Henderson]

Right now, I have no proper bench. To cut dovetails by hand, you need a way to hold the material and that would be a challenge. You also need at least pretty decent hand tools. Mine would be marginal, I fear. But the main reason I reach for the router jig is I am not patient enough to cut them by hand. To those that think they can cut dovetails by hand about as fast as by router, I would have to see it. Maybe through dovetails but not half blind ones. I usually do the backs too because once the jig is in position and the router is set up, cutting the joint is a pretty simple couple minute exercise. That just isn't true for hand cut. Skilled individuals can put them out at a reasonable pace but not what the same level of skill (or somewhat less) will achieve with a router. And the comparison wouldn't be great even if it was possible because hand cut dovetails depend on sharp tools that must be sharpened much more regularly than a carbide router bit. So the joint cutting ignoring the time spent keeping the tools working well wouldn't be the whole story.

I also accept speed isn't everything and I admire people with more patience and skill at hand cutting dovetails. But it just isn't for me.

In my opinion, half blind dovetails are easier and quicker than through dovetails. The reason is that half blind dovetails hide most of the visible part of the dovetail. You really only have to get one surface good.

As far as speed, I don't see much difference. I can chop out the "socket" for the tails pretty quick. You don't do them one at a time, you do all of them in sequence. So you saw all the "pins", then put the board down and take the same chop one each one.

The reason people say that hand cut is faster than a jig is the jig set up time. For volume production, you can't beat a jig. But when you're doing "one off" dovetails, such as different size drawers in a chest of drawers, you can cut one set pretty quick. When using a jig, you have to go through a set up for each drawer.

Also, once you get good with dovetails, you only need a short practice before starting on your real ones. I recommend to people that the do a set of classroom dovetails before using the expensive wood if they haven't done them in a while. Dovetails are like a lot of "muscle memory" things (playing a musical instrument is an example). You have to practice to maintain your proficiency.

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

There is a middle, hybrid approach:

You use a bandsaw or table saw to cut the tails and then use a pin router or chisel to handle the waste in between.

I don't - as I'm sure most don't - judge other peoples' use of machined dovetails (I use them myself many times for efficiency). But for a finer touch, I just prefer the look. You can get nice and skinny when doing them without a fat router bit. That's not to say it's ANY better; in fact may be technically weaker than thicker pins. But for some things, that's a moot sacrifice in favor of something that just looks nice to my eye.

You have to decide your own method that balances form, function, and personal satisfaction.

[Jim Koepke]

Some of those I have seen doing them by hand on YouTube have no variance in them at all, they are all exactly the same and it takes forever to lay them out measuring to the nearest thousandth of an inch. The only difference I can see is as you pointed out they can be finer by hand which is nicer to look at.

My worst looking woodworking was when trying to measure everything to the "nearest thousandth of an inch." The pine most of my projects use moves more than that when the weather changes.

Now most of the time my dovetails are laid out with a story stick made for the project or borrowed from a previous project.

Noise in the shop makes me uncomfortable. That is my main reason for not using a router and other machines.

jtk

[roger wiegand]

Both. When I need to make 20 joints all the same I set up the router. For just one, or if I want skinnier pins than I have a router bit for I do them by hand. On very small pieces I do them by hand. My jig has never precluded any spacing I've tried to make, so that hasn't been a concern.

[Brian Holcombe]

I prefer to lay them out and cut by hand.

Skipping the layout is a special bit of torture for an OCD such as myself. I would be haunted by the decision every time I looked at them.

[Mike Henderson]

There is a middle, hybrid approach:

You use a bandsaw or table saw to cut the tails and then use a pin router or chisel to handle the waste in between.

I don't - as I'm sure most don't - judge other peoples' use of machined dovetails (I use them myself many times for efficiency). But for a finer touch, I just prefer the look. You can get nice and skinny when doing them without a fat router bit. That's not to say it's ANY better; in fact may be technically weaker than thicker pins. But for some things, that's a moot sacrifice in favor of something that just looks nice to my eye.

You have to decide your own method that balances form, function, and personal satisfaction.
I often use a bandsaw to cut the tails. It's one of those things that can't be seen in the final product so it doesn't bother me. Just speeds up the process a bit.

I know some people use a small router to remove most of the waste in half blind dovetails but I haven't started doing that. It's actually a good idea because if you set up the router properly, it will do a flat bottom for the sockets. You can't get all the waste out with a router so you still have to do some hand work.

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

'You can't get all the waste out with a router so you still have to do some hand work'.

Mike, I'm sure you don't need this crutch, but I've found the pin router surprisingly deft. You can go so close to the line, that the final paring cut right on the knife line requires no effort to execute. On half blinds, the only work is in the corners. (Confounded corners for me...) I think the revelation was how easy the router is to manipulate (unless you get aggressive. It's easy to run out if you don't pay attn. I use a 1/4" spiral bit.

I usually butt up a spare piece in the vise to help keep the router from tipping and to prevent blowing out the ends on the through sides. Bet yr students would love it (especially the ones with elbows that ache from inefficient chopping).

[Russell Smallwood]

Hand cut for me because

First you get to use your marking tools and admire how well they work and how easy it is, or you get to take a detour down the road
of researching the ways to measure and mark dovetails and how to keep your measuring and marking tools in working order...

Then you get to use your dovetail saw and admire how good a job you did sharpening it,
or you get to take a detour down the saw sharpening road, or better yet, purchasing and restoring an old dovetail saw...

Then you get to use your chisels and admire how sharp they are, or you get to take a detour down the chisel sharpening road...

Then you get to stand back and admire how all of these things came together and how all these old tools worked flawlessly for you, as they did for others, to make something that not many people know how to make, or you get to practice making more dovetails...

[peter Joseph]

Always by hand simply for the fact that I'd rather send my paycheck to Lie Nielsen for beautiful saws and chisels than porter cable for metal contraptions with plastic knobs and handles and aluminum guides.

The other, perhaps more practical reason is that (with 2, soon 4 young kids) all of my woodworking takes place between 11pm and 2am. "wood is good" mallet keeps the noise down and lets me recapture my sanity. I really enjoy cutting DT's by hand and producing a perfect joint in the process. Sometimes, i'll admit, I just cut a few for fun.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I often use a bandsaw to cut the tails. It's one of those things that can't be seen in the final product so it doesn't bother me. Just speeds up the process a bit.

I know some people use a small router to remove most of the waste in half blind dovetails but I haven't started doing that. It's actually a good idea because if you set up the router properly, it will do a flat bottom for the sockets. You can't get all the waste out with a router so you still have to do some hand work.

Mike

I am as hybrid a woodworker as one can be.. For dovetails it's hand cut for me, I just find for the pieces that I build, it's just easier and faster to hand cut them, and hand cut dovetails are an expected commodity... Having said all that, I have used a router to waste out the pins for half blinds, it works wonderfully, but I have to confess I am not the biggest fan of the router noise and dust.. Instead, I have borrowed a tip from Glen Huey where the waste in half blind dovetails is wasted using a drill press and a forstner bit, the process is much quieter, but does leave much more area that needs to be cleaned up by hand...

[Jim Dwight]

In my opinion, half blind dovetails are easier and quicker than through dovetails. The reason is that half blind dovetails hide most of the visible part of the dovetail. You really only have to get one surface good.

As far as speed, I don't see much difference. I can chop out the "socket" for the tails pretty quick. You don't do them one at a time, you do all of them in sequence. So you saw all the "pins", then put the board down and take the same chop one each one.

The reason people say that hand cut is faster than a jig is the jig set up time. For volume production, you can't beat a jig. But when you're doing "one off" dovetails, such as different size drawers in a chest of drawers, you can cut one set pretty quick. When using a jig, you have to go through a set up for each drawer.

Also, once you get good with dovetails, you only need a short practice before starting on your real ones. I recommend to people that the do a set of classroom dovetails before using the expensive wood if they haven't done them in a while. Dovetails are like a lot of "muscle memory" things (playing a musical instrument is an example). You have to practice to maintain your proficiency.

Mike

My half blind dovetail jig lives on a little homemade bb stand with a drawer below it for the setup tools. The side stops are set and the clamp bars are set for 1/2 bb, my preferred drawer side/back material. So to get going, I have to put the bit in the router along with the template guide, set the height (which I have a jig for) and I am ready to go. I guess I have to clamp down the jig/stand combination too. But it doesn't take long. My dressers and the kitchen cabinets I've made used drawers that were increments of 7/8 inch. That is a design limitation but a different template could be used it if bothers you. But because they are all multiples of 7/8 inch, there is no change to the setup for different drawer widths. If I am using solid wood for the fronts, as I prefer, I have to change the clamping height when doing the backs but that is pretty quick.

I would not claim that my machine cut dovetails are as nice as hand cut nor is the layout very flexible. But they are strong. And I do not think there is a speed comparison. I don't love to listen to my router either but I don't have to listen long to dovetail drawers. I accept that the difference isn't huge if the person hand cutting is good but I don't think they have a chance of being done first.

[Andrew Hughes]

I'll throw my hat in the handsaw side, I just like having the control of spacing and the fit.I also space my half blinds a little closer at the ends I believe it will keep the corners from opening up later in life.Dont know if it's tru but that's what I believe.
I do respect the guys that use routers and jigs it takes a lot of guts to offer up the wood to a high speed cutter, and have good fit.Routers and me just don't get along so don't trust them.
Heres a pic of my work.

[Mike Ontko]

I fall into the hybrid group. I've got a Leigh dovetail jig that I bought for building my shop cabinets (which I haven't done yet). There'll be 10 drawers built into 4 cabinets and having the jig will (hopefully) help make it easier to duplicate the results. The nice thing about the Leigh jig is that you're not restricted to a fixed tail/pin spacing, which seems to be one of the arguments or thoughts against using machine-assisted methods. But I like working with saw and chisels as well when it's practical or necessary. The coffee table I'm working on has top rail supports that connect to the legs with half-lap dovetails. I used a saw to define the sides, hogged out the bulk of the material using a compact router (Rigid R24012) with a straight plunge cutting bit, and chiseled the edges and corners for final sizing.

For me, one of the benefits of using machines is that the required setup forces me to think a little more carefully about what I'm going to do. If I do something by hand, I find that it can be a little easier to rush through things, which is an invitation for mistakes and do-overs.

[Larry Frank]

I would love to do hand cut dovetails but they are too hard on my arthritic wrists. I have done them in the past and enjoyed doing them. However, getting old and worn out creates issues that one had to adapt to.

[John T Barker]

I think most of us are afraid to practise enough to get proficient without all the aids. The other issue of course is if you are not doing anything on a regular basis the skill level drops off.

A few days devoted to getting it under your belt is all it takes. Get a hold of a 6-7" wide poplar board and spend the time dovetailing, dovetailing, dovetailing. Once you've done this you will be able to knock off a drawer almost as fast as if you used a jig to do it.

[Mike Henderson]

A few days devoted to getting it under your belt is all it takes. Get a hold of a 6-7" wide poplar board and spend the time dovetailing, dovetailing, dovetailing. Once you've done this you will be able to knock off a drawer almost as fast as if you used a jig to do it.

To be fair, my experience is that some people are better than others, even with the same amount of practice. Doing dovetails requires you to be very precise in your work - marking, sawing, chopping out waste, transferring to the other board, etc. Some people are just naturals - they get the concept quickly and are very careful and precise. Others have problems sawing to a line, and understanding how to clean out the waste properly - and trimming exactly to the line.

I don't know what makes people different in this area but I've certainly seen a difference.

Mike

[I teach a class on hand cut dovetails so I've seen a lot of students. They will all do a couple of sets of dovetails in class but some people's are much better than others. I don't have any followup so maybe those who don't do well in class do much better at home, later.]

[Scott Cenicola]

Thanks to all of you, now I want to learn to cut dovetails by hand .Any recommendations for a good video? Also seems the correct saw is critical, any recomendations for a moderately priced "starter saw"?

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks to all of you, now I want to learn to cut dovetails by hand .Any recommendations for a good video? Also seems the correct saw is critical, any recommendations for a moderately priced "starter saw"?

I'm sure you can find videos on the Internet. Rob Cosman has a couple of good videos but you have to buy them. If you can do with just text and pictures, I have a couple of tutorials here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm)and here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm).

Regarding saws, I used a small(er) Japanese dozuki saw for a number of years before I bought some western dovetail saws. In the western saws, I prefer the LN saw.

Mike

[Scott Cenicola]

Thanks Mike! I think those tutorials will be helpful thanks for the link. I have some projects lined up right no but I can't wait to get started .

[jack forsberg]

i like My brookman for cutting in Ply and its the cheapest way to join a corners we have. she cut a set of dovetails almost perfect , just a little adjusting to do
it takes about 5 seconds to cut a set. I have see this type on may factory pieces from the 40s and 50s. Its not hand cut but makes a great box.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/unload.jpg


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/landleft.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/JSHutcheson/firstcutcloseupjpg.jpg

[Jon Nuckles]

Thanks to all of you, now I want to learn to cut dovetails by hand .Any recommendations for a good video? Also seems the correct saw is critical, any recomendations for a moderately priced "starter saw"?

I use a Japanese saw and like it, but a western saw will work just as well. I mention this because you asked about a moderately priced option and you can get a decent dozuki for much less than a decent western saw. The important thing is to get familiar with one saw and learn to cut to a line with it. The one drawback to a Japanese saw is that the kerf is so small that you can't easily get a coping saw blade in to cut the majority of the waste out before chopping. I chop from the start, so it doesn't bother me. If you do get a western saw, do a little research on sizing the handle to your hand. Some saws have bigger handles and some have smaller; getting one that fits you will help.

[Mark Blatter]

I cut some by hand and some using a router and a Leigh jig. I started by hand on a project a few years ago and quickly realized that there was simply no way to complete it on time. I was making four blanket chests, one for each of my girls. Each one has 8' of dovetails on the exterior, so a total of 32 linear feet, and I was able to cut it all using a jig with a single set up. I still marked all of the boards with a marker, as I do any time I am using the jig. It helps me set the depth of the bit. I also use random settings on the 'teeth' of the jig so it isn't a precise cut.

Smaller projects I will use a Dozuki saw that I love. I have never used an American style saw and see no reason to try one out since the one I have works so well.

[Jon Nuckles]

I forgot to mention that, now that you have decided to cut your dovetails by hand, you may want to ask for advice on that topic in the neanderthal forum if you have not already done so. By the way, I gave away my Leigh jig after learning to cut by hand. Nearly as fast for most jobs and way more fun than listening to router whine and breathing dust.

[Scott Cenicola]

Thanks Jon. I was looking at this saw from Rockler
http://www.rockler.com/crown-brass-back-gent-s-saw
Just watched a Rob Cosman video on YouTube . Wow, that will get you charged up to hand cut some dove tails!

[Jon Nuckles]

I have not used a gent's saw in 20 years and so can't speak to them, but I guess it would eliminate the need to size it to your hand. Others might be able to advise you on the quality of that saw. I bought a couple of Crown marking tools a long time ago and was never happy with them. They were replaced by better tools and are in a drawer somewhere collecting dust. I don't know if you can get a decent western saw at that price, and I also don't know if it will arrive ready to use or if you will need to sharpen it first. With a western saw, you will need to sharpen it or have it sharpened eventually. With a modestly priced Japanese saw, the teeth are hardened and stay sharp a long time then you replace the blade.

[Robert Engel]

I learned to cut dt's using the video by Frank Klausz.

[peter Joseph]

I have that saw as I'm sure many others do as well. When I decided to learn handcut DT's, I began with the saw you referenced. Number one, It has a pretty wide kerf and leaves a fairly rough cut IMO without any sharpening out of the box. I also find it difficult to steer early on in the cut. Compared to a Lie Nielsen Dt saw, its no contest but also 4x the price. Before you purchase that saw, I'd check out the offerings from veritas. Very moderate in price and great saws from what I hear.

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks Jon. I was looking at this saw from Rockler
http://www.rockler.com/crown-brass-back-gent-s-saw
Just watched a Rob Cosman video on YouTube . Wow, that will get you charged up to hand cut some dove tails!
In my experience, Gent's saws are usually filed crosscut instead of rip, and are too fine (too many teeth per inch). Wouldn't be my choice for dovetails.

Mike

[Andrew Hughes]

My favorite Dt saw is made by Mike Wenzloff.The way he sets the teeth makes all the differance,Plus he make the handle with just the right Hang.
I've used Lie Neilson,Winsor,Adria, I started with Japaneese pull saws but since the ones I bought couldn't be Sharpend I went to western style.Someday I would like to get a nice Japaneese pull saw again,before my eye sight is gone.