Building a frame for a work bench/work table with the Adjust A Bench system

[Mike Holbrook]

I know there are a number of older threads on the Norden Adjust A Bench system and making benches with it. What I am thinking about doing is different than any design I have seen or heard about though. I am thinking about building a frame with interchangeable tops. I am concerned about the top being rigid and heavy enough to be adjusted from either end but light enough to be easily movable. On the one hand, light tops reduce weight I would have to lift. On the other hand, can I build a frame that will work with a Festool top or foam sheathing and still be rigid enough?

I want an adjustable height workbench/work table that I can use as an out-feed for a Festool table, lunchbox planer and band saw. I have a Noden Adjust A Bench frame I bought for this project. Right, these are not hand tool apps but, I also want an adjustable height work bench/work table for making chairs with by hand. Marking chair legs for sawing off and adjusting them to be level requires one height, wedging the legs into the seat, working the seat itself, wedging spindles in the top of the arm rest....It is nice to be able to adjust the work surface so the surface/area being worked is easily accessible.

I would also like to be able to change the surface of this bench/work table. For doing longer cuts with a Festool saw, painting/finishing...it is nice to have a sacrificial surface. I often use foam house sheathing for this work. Working odd shaped pieces like chair seats it is nice to have a very adaptable clamping system like the Festool table clamping system. If I could pull the sacrificial top off my work bench/work table and put a Festool table top in the same place I could dramatically improve the range of things I could do with the one bench/table.

My question then is, can I build some sort of bench/table frame that would be heavy and stiff enough to work with just a sheet of foam sheathing or a Festool top in it? The frame would need to allow me to have access to the underside of the Festool top. I am considering a 3/8-1/2" lip around the surface that I can drop the different tops into to hold them in place. I should also add that I am not planing for this to be my planing bench. I plan to make a very heavy more conventional hand tool workbench. I also have a small hardwood bench (20" x55", with vise, Hammer) which I am reinforcing and adding weight too. My plan is to use the Adjust A Bench to make the heavier bench.

[James Pallas]

Mike I will be interested in what you come up with. I have a Noden bench and have used it over a year. I like it very much because it has allowed me to keep woodworking. Being able to change the height of the bench for different processes is key for me.
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

I am reinforcing the small bench, and working on a furniture restore project today James.

I have a couple 2x8's cut to make the Adjust A Bench stretchers with and I am experimenting with making the grooves for the truss rods with my Veritas plow plane instead of a router. I got a Festool board/top in the mail but it was damaged in shipping. I finally decided to just cut the corners off and use it anyway. The missing corners will give me a place to get under it and lift it out, or that's my excuse.... I'm just not up for going through that slow large piece shipping process again and maybe end up with an even worse result.

I guess I have to come up with an exact design for the table top. I have a good supply of 1x trim boards I bought at the depot. It is the nice clear SYP. I have been thinking about glueing/jointing some up to make the frame. I am also thinking about trying to find decent 2x4 SYP to use for at least part of it so there is less gluing. Although the glued wood should be at least as strong. I will try to snap pictures along the way. I'm just not as good at that as guys like Brian, but as my pappy use to say, I want learn any younger.

[James Pallas]

Mike It sounds like you have some ideas in the thought train. I don't worry about great pictures much. I just use what the iPhone or iPad provides. Photography is another hobby to learn. It is easier to let my wife do the nice picture taking. I am interested in what you may do because I may want to borrow your idea for myself. I would like to see your restoration work also.
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

I will post some pictures James. I spent an hour or two with Josh Brackett at my local Woodcraft yesterday discussing several methods for restoring the finish on antiques and other surfaces, which Josh does professionally. I also worked with him on what glues and repair/reinforcement substances to use for my various projects. I am also finishing up a couple "saw benches" from a course I took with Chris Schwarz at Highland Woodworking. As a result of my large backlog of projects that never quite got finished due to some health issues, I had questions about finishing lots of surfaces for multiple projects. I never even got around to discussing how to finish the Festool top for the Adjust A Bench! Finishing hopefully want be a major issue on my Adjust A Bench bench with the swappable tops. Although I am thinking about a 7' by about 30" wide top and the Festool top is 45 13/16 x 28 1/2" so I will either need two removable pieces or a partial permanent top. I am working on that design now, consulting with an engineer/woodworking buddy. I want a surface long enough to cut full plywood sheets on and also wide enough to stand chairs and cabinets on. I am hoping I can do it all on a 7' x 30" top. My idea for this bench/table is not to put any vises on it. I think the Festool top and Festool clamping system will handle the work I have planed without restricting the surfaces ability to handle off-feed chores.

I laid in a fresh supply of rags, two pair of neoprene gloves, nonwoven scouring pads, foam brushes. I am trying out the new silicon glue brushes and glue tubs too. Supposedly glue will just peel right off the silicon once it dries. I also bought two glues: Titebond Liquid Hide glue, for the chairs & antiques, and Titebond II Wood Glue, for gluing up the pieces to make the frame for my bench top. I think Titebond II will work fine for gluing up the AAB bench top as any liquid etc. will be absorbed into the swappable tops not the frame. I plan to buy some Bondo later today too. Josh suggested Bondo for areas that are not visible but a strong bond with something that can fill an area might help.

It was a long but very educational trip. Now I feel like I have a clue on how to finish a few projects and a better idea of which glues to use for which projects as well. I revised this post as I thought I had too much detail about the antique finishing project. I moved that info. to the Finishing forum if anyone wants to see/follow that project.

[Tom Vanzant]

Mike, Google "Stickley finish using modern materials". That refers you to PWM's Aug2012 issue. Better than dealing with the high-strength ammonia needed for fuming, both for you and the dogs.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the link Tom. It is interesting that Bob Lang used WATCO to reproduce the old finish feel. The other source I talked to felt that wood, being dead, could not actually be "preserved" as most people think. He seemed to favor water based dyes and urethane coats. Bob seemed to favor the oil based finish. My other source disliked WATCO and I think most oil finishes. I think his problem with oil had more to do with the difficulty of removing it vs water based dyes/finishes. He liked hyde glue for the same reason, it is easier to remove and redo with warm water, where some glues probably just are not going to come entirely out of the wood without destroying it.

It seems that water based may be easier to do, remove, redo. I guess oil based is just harder to deal with/change/remove once it is in the wood. This seems like one of those double edged swords to me. Do I use oil based hoping the oil will better protect some of the dead wood from UV/decay/invasion by harmful organisms knowing that it will be very hard to get out. Or, do I go with water based figuring that the finish may need to be removed and replaced sometime in the less distant future, but being comforted by the fact that the redo will be easier than if I used oil.

Or maybe I am trying to read too much between the lines?

[Daniel Rode]

I used ammonia fuming on a project last winter. While precautions are important, it's really not difficult to work with. However, I used a 10% solution rather than the >20% typical to industrial ammonia. This was mostly due to cost and availability.

I had a separate space to do the fuming and a good tent within that. I would not want to risk doing this in the house or an occupied shop. It IS highly caustic even at 10%.

Mike, Google "Stickley finish using modern materials". That refers you to PWM's Aug2012 issue. Better than dealing with the high-strength ammonia needed for fuming, both for you and the dogs.

[Tom Vanzant]

Dan, I had a memorable brush with 28% ammonia while filling an Ozalid printer about 30 yrs ago. Long story short...a small spill (2-3oz) emptied the drafting area and dissolved 2sqft of vinyl flooring. After a couple of hours with open doors and several fans, we were back to work. Not to be repeated. IIRC, 20% is the minimum strength recommended for fuming.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have too many skin issues and at least 6 dogs running through the house that occasionally sneak down into my shop in the basement, inside the house... I want be trying the Ammonia but I am interested in opinions regarding water vs oil based and the new Gel products. I now have a thread running on the finishing forum to pursue those topics.

I am wondering what others think about my idea of using 1x SYP trim wood to build part of my frame for my Adjust A Bench? I think I can glue up 2-3, 3/4" pieces that will be a little better/stronger wood. I believe I can hand plane boards at two different thicknesses, then glue them together, to create dadoes and full lap joints, by sawing cross pieces into the appropriate lengths, for relatively simple but somewhat sturdier joinery. Planing the boards instead of routing dadoes & grooves may save a little time and still achieve the required accuracy. I am thinking that I can glue, screw and clamp the pieces together into the frame. I will use a couple around 2x4 cross pieces in the frame too. These will be the places the top attaches to the Adjust A Bench frame. I do not want to get too fancy with a workbench/table designed to handle the rough/messy work and save the surfaces of my hand tool workbenches. At the same time the frame needs to be extra rigid and strong as the sacrificial surfaces will not lend structural support.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike,

I came a bit late to this thread.

One of the things that comes to mind for a light weight top is a torsion box design. Not something on my list of knowledge but others have praised their benefits.

My pondering turned to the thoughts of how is one to store multiple quick change bench tops.

My next thought was for a bench on top of bench design. This would allow a rigid noninterchangeable top with as many changeable setups as needed to sit atop a solid top.

Even less than perfect pictures are always desired and helpful.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Torsion box, that is pretty much what I am thinking about too Jim. I have some wood and just got fresh glue...I'm trying to figure out whether I have everything I need to start or if I need a few pieces of larger lumber. I have a rough plan on LV graph paper. I am finishing up enclosing my existing bench's base in plywood. It needs more weight so I can plane things on it without it walking across the floor. Once I get started I will post pictures.

Storage space for tops want be a big deal for me. I just took over another room in the basement for the shop. I thought about building a light frame around top pieces vs building a torsion box with interchangeable tops. I am thinking sheathing for the sacrificial top though and I'm afraid it would be too flexible without some sort of torsion box under it. Foam sheathing is cheap and easy to pick up at regular trips to the depot, as is masonite and the cheaper MDF which might work well too.

Does anyone know where to buy MDF like the MDF they use to make Festool table tops with? The MDF that the home stores carry is too soft and crumbly for what I have in mind. I have a Festool top but it is 45-46" and I am thinking 84-92" long for the top, so I need some other 3/4" thick piece to fill the gap, hopefully something a little less pricey than another Festool top. Having the Festool top available for clamping to and the other roughly half of the table top as something solid works well for several jobs I have in mind. Then if I need to cut sheet goods I just lift the two pieces off the torsion box and set the sheathing in the torsion box.

[Jim Koepke]

I am finishing up enclosing my existing bench's base in plywood. It needs more weight so I can plane things on it without it walking across the floor.

My problem with bench walking was pretty much solved by a 5 gallon bucket and a bag of cement.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

A 5 gallon bucket want fit under this small Hammer bench and I need the storage space. My plan is to put all my planes on two shelves/cabinet built into the base. If that does not do it I will find something even heavier or make a cement base ;-).

[Jim Koepke]

A 5 gallon bucket want fit under this small Hammer bench and I need the storage space. My plan is to put all my planes on two shelves/cabinet built into the base. If that does not do it I will find something even heavier or make a cement base ;-).

Not being familiar with the components and their arraignment has me kind of guessing blindly. If there is a cavity anywhere in the base, it can be filled with any kind of weight. Cement just happens to be a very inexpensive material for weight. A couple of 50 lb weights from a weight lifting set could be bolted on somewhere. Steel grating could be mounted to the underside of the bottom shelf.

My recollection was you will not be mounting vises on this bench. One of the thoughts running through my head was the possibility of using 10 or 20 lb weights for the wheels on the vises.

Lots of ways to add weight. Wish it was as easy to get it off my waist line, but we won't go into that...

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim,
I'm sorry I confused the issue by talking about two benches in the same thread. The bench I am doing the upgrade on is a compact Hammer bench I have had for a long time. The existing Hammer bench is only 20" wide (including the tool well) x 54 1/2" long (including the end vise). The Adjust A Bench bench/table I am working on is a different project. I am trying to improve the old bench enough so I can plane some of the wood for the Adjust A Bench and a couple saw benches I am finishing up, from a Schwarz class. The two saw benches are just small 7" x 17" surfaces for sawing or sitting on. I am planing the legs for the saw benches from tough, tapered white oak and I plan to plane some of the SYP for the Adjust A Bench as well. The Adjust A Bench is on locking casters so I can roll it between work areas. The compact Hammer bench may eventually move to my work workshop, after I finish the heavy bench so I am trying to maintain the ability to break it down into manageable pieces.

Once I finish the Adjust A Bench, which is more of a clamping surface, sheet goods cutting table and work table, I plan to use the Adjust A Bench's larger surface to make a heavy bench from glued up hardwood. The heavy bench will have two vises on it. The compact Hammer bench has two wood vises on it too, it just isn't that sturdy/heavy yet. Yes, I am upgrading a bench to use to make a bench/table to make a real bench on. I am about done upgrading the compact Hammer, I will post pictures once it is finished.

[Mike Holbrook]

Here is the Hammer bench I just made a small upgrade to. I had wainscotting, plywood, lying around from a building project so I just used it to enclose the bench on three sides. I may add doors and another shelf or two in the future but for now I have a storage area that adds the needed weight and rigidity to this small bench. I am also finishing up the sawbench (actually two of them) in front of the Hammer bench:

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Here is the Adjust A Bench base with a couple stretchers that I am about to make dadoes in so that they will fit over the threaded rod between the two end pieces of the AAB. The original post was to discuss how to make a frame/top to fit on top of the AAB so I can swap out work surfaces.

321659

The piece in the end vise on the remodeled Hammer bench is a tapered white oak leg for the second sawbench. Sitting on top of the leg is my #5 Stanley plane with a cambered blade. I was able to work the leg with the plane without the bench walking, just with the additional weight and rigidity enclosing the bench provided. Now that I have a decent place to plane I will probably make the sawbench legs octagons.

I think that once I fill the inside storage area with tools, finish...I will have a decent place to plane, at least until I get my heavy bench built. The AAB bench/work table may not be the best place to plane as it is designed to be a mobile station. Planing white oak with a cambered blade is tough work without a solid, heavy bench, much different than taking small amounts off softer wood.

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[Eric Brown]

I have the adjust-a-bench legs on my bench. You will have to consider that they only adjust in 1 inch increments. I have leveling pads that raise the wheels off the floor for better stability. You might consider something similar for fine adjustments. As for the top, I would build the top strong and with the vice(s) installed. Then I would use the foam as a cap on top of it. The bench top would support the foam and reduce the weight you need to move. Good luck. Eric

[Mike Holbrook]

Eric, I have been planing to use a Festool MFT top on the AAB bench. I think the Festool clamping system will be helpful for clamping odd sized chair seats and arm supports in and I have an MFT table and the clamps now. I like to leave the actual MFT table set up for cross cutting and angled cuts. It just takes time to take the fences/guides I use for cross cutting sheet goods on & off when I want to use the surface to clamp something. My idea was to make the AAB bench so it can be an outfeed/extension of the MFT. Then I can do my rip cuts with my Festool saw on the combined tables.

I kicked around the idea of making the AAB base into my heavy bench like Eric apparently has. The main reason I did not go that way is I bought a Benchcrafted leg vise to put on my heavy bench and I am not sure how to adapt a leg vise to an adjustable height bench.

[Jim Koepke]

I kicked around the idea of making the AAB base into my heavy bench like Eric apparently has. The main reason I did not go that way is I bought a Benchcrafted leg vise to put on my heavy bench and I am not sure how to adapt a leg vise to an adjustable height bench.

Maybe something has flew by me, just because it is a leg vise does it mean the leg has to reach the floor?

Isn't it really just a big clamp?

jtk

[Eric Brown]

Mike, Jim makes an interesting suggestion. In fact, my bench utilizes a hanging dead-man that can be positioned the full length and on either side of the bench. Not sure if a vice could be done in a similar way. Probably one concern would be the extra weight to lift. I used some constant force springs as a counter-balance to make my bench top lift easier.

[Mike Holbrook]

I was just studying the AAB base and realized the base (with the casters on it) is held on with four large bolts through the heavy metal frame and AAB. If I replaced those bolts with longer bolts, I could run them through wooden legs that should be sturdy enough to work a leg vise on. There is only 21" from the base up to the piece on the AAB that will hold the top, so space is tight. The Benchcraft plan calls for a 25 7/16" vise jaw, adding 3-4" for the thickness of the top gets me to 24-25". I could work a 3.5" x ?" leg onto the angle iron base that would extend just past the height adjusting screws on the locking casters, leaving room to adjust those screws but getting the leg out past them so they are not interfering with the operation of the leg vise. The metal bases for the casters are 22" wide. If I built the legs out an inch further on either side I could attach a 24" wide top flush with four "floating" legs built into some sort of base cabinet/storage area. The legs could attach to the stretchers between the two AAB sides....It would be a little weird to have a leg vise kinda floating out there in space, but if it is built into that 1/4" thick 3"x3" angle iron base I think it would be plenty rigid enough.

The problem is the leg vise would be connected to the part of the AAB that does not move and the vise would not raise or lower so it might only work against the top with the AAB at the lowest position....The attachment for the AAB top is 26" off the floor at the lowest position. Add 1 1/2" for a board to attach it to a top and say a 3" top and I am at 30 1/2" for the work surface height....hmmm how high do I want this bench for planing?

Now I remember why I gave up on this idea, it gives me a headache just thinking about it!