How to fit a raised panel?

[Nick Stokes]

I need help to finish this up. I have a frame built with a 1/4" groove. I have 2 panels from 4/4 cherry. I am using my 4 1/2 to raise the panels. I used my gauge to mark the edge thickness to 1/4". I planed a chamfer down to that line, and then I finished raising the panel down to my marks on the face...

My question now is, how do I fit it in the groove? I think I missed a step.

The toolbox build I am trying to a copy from the Paul sellers subscription website. I am trying to copy it just from the pictures, but I can't figure this part out.

The groove in the frame is 3/4" deep, so how do I create that "Step" in the frame? such that I can slide it in?

Hopefully these pictures help explain my problem.

Frame:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2rqkck4.jpg

Groove:

http://i61.tinypic.com/169ov9j.jpg

Panels:

http://i60.tinypic.com/1174vvr.jpg

Raised Panel:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2m5msds.jpg

[steven c newman]

Usually, I place the raised panel into some of the grooves..before I assemble the rest of the frame
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Once the panel fit, then I can finish assembling the unit.

To "drop" a panel into an already assemble frame. One needs to remove the inside part of the groove. Save it, place the panel, then re-attach the cut out strips. About like glazing a window...

[Jim Koepke]

If the frame is already glued, then Steven's approach is on the right track.

If your problem is the panel will not go into the groove, you need to reduce it more near the edge. On a panel on one of my projects made like yours a rabbet was run around the edge of the panel.

Otherwise it is a matter of planing the panel down whilst test fitting as Steven also suggests above.

jtk

[Nick Stokes]

Steve, thank you for the reply.

I did not state my question clear enough. The frame is not assembled yet, it is dry fit. My real question was... How do I cut the 1/4 "tenon" aspect of the panel? At this point I have basically a 2" long chamfer on the edge of the panel that meets at my 1/4" mark. So the panel is currently 1/4" thick at the very edge, but it raises up too quickly to be able to fit inside the groove... ?

I am having trouble verbalizing what I am trying to ask...

*Edit - Jim I just saw your reply. Yes, I believe I need a rabbet cut... Maybe I should have done this first... but, without a rabbet plane, how might I do this? I have bench planes and a block plane, chisels and saws... No specialty planes... YET.

[James Pallas]

I'm guessing that you haven't glued the frame yet and are talking about fitting the edge of the panel in the groove. I would cut a rabbet on the back side wide enough and deep enough to fit the panel into the groove. Remember to leave some space for expansion and/or contraction. Your edge will be a little less than 1/4" that is OK. You can use those small rubber balls to keep the panel from rattling in the groove if you choose to. You should get a few answers to the question there are other ways to do it. This is just the way I have chosen with panels such as yours.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

Jim I just saw your reply. Yes, I believe I need a rabbet cut... Maybe I should have done this first... but, without a rabbet plane, how might I do this? I have bench planes and a block plane, chisels and saws... No specialty planes... YET.

The easiest way would be to continue planing the chamfer. First to the ends so if there is any split out or tear out the cuts with the grain will remove them.

It helps to keep a scrap with the same slot cut as the frame to test fit while in progress.

How did you cut the slot in the frame? That same method could also help you to cut a rabbet on the panel. With a rabbet plane you could come in a little from the edge to make the raised area stand out a bit more.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I would cut a rabbet on the back side wide enough and deep enough to fit the panel into the groove.

It could also work to plane a chamfer along the back edge.

jtk

[James Pallas]

You could use a bench plane or block plane and cut a bevel on the back to make the fit. The reason I like to work from the back is I don't care for the step showing on the bevel on the front of the panel.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Simple, raise the inside as well as the outside. Double bevel.

Before I got a No. 78 Rebate plane, I would raise both sides of the panel came out like this <_> then add some foam "space balls" in the grooves to keep things from rattling around.

[Darrell LaRue]

If you are using a regular bench plane to make the bevels on a raised panel, then you will not have the "tenon" section around the edge of the panel. You will have to bring the panel to a feather edge to get it to fit in the grooves. That's what I did on the back and side panels of my latest chest. The front panels are carved and rebated on the back to fit the grooves.

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I installed the panels with the bevels on the inside, as I wanted a plain flat area on the outside of the chest.
Darrell

[Nick Stokes]

Thank you all for the help. I will report back with the results.

[Jude Kenny]

Nick,

Sellers uses a chamfer on the toolbox. You can see the method on the clock making video #4 on youtube.

The chamfers taper off with an edge left on the panel that is less than the groove width. I made a sketchup model and I got an edge of about 3/16 wide. So, if you marked 1/4" on your panel, just keep planing down until it fits. Alternatively, you could cut some kind of rebate on the bottom.

I can email you my sketchup file if you like. Masterclasses is free to join. I have the model posted there too.

[Nick Stokes]

So I got some more time to get after it... Thank you for all of the advise...

What I had to end up doing was use my Jointer to cut a rabbet on the backside. I didn't trust my ability to do it with hand tools just yet. I felt like my biggest problem was starting with a full 4/4 cherry panel... I think maybe if this was thinner it would have gone better for me.. I had to remove a lot of material with the plane...

Anyway I got after it, and eventually got it to fit pretty close... Then I did the other one, and was much more successful with the quality of the chamfer, and the straightness of the lines. It's so fun to try this stuff and solve the problems I create by not knowing what I'm doing.

Here is why I stand now... Still have a bunch of fiddling to go to get her to fit together. This is my 3rd Hand tool project...

http://i57.tinypic.com/2akfkuu.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/1zdpuz8.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/jrziuw.jpg

[Daniel Rode]

First off, it looks like your project is coming along nicely!

I had to laugh when I read this. I would have said the same thing a couple years ago. Today, I wouldn't trust the power jointer to make that adjustment :)


What I had to end up doing was use my Jointer to cut a rabbet on the backside. I didn't trust my ability to do it with hand tools just yet.

[Jim Koepke]

Looks like you got it done and looking good.


What I had to end up doing was use my Jointer to cut a rabbet on the backside. I didn't trust my ability to do it with hand tools just yet. I felt like my biggest problem was starting with a full 4/4 cherry panel... I think maybe if this was thinner it would have gone better for me.. I had to remove a lot of material with the plane...

The way to gain trust in yourself is to go ahead and do it. You will often surprise yourself. Not only that you will show yourself you can wander into the unknown and come out with new skills and a project to make yourself proud.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Simple, raise the inside as well as the outside. Double bevel.

Before I got a No. 78 Rebate plane, I would raise both sides of the panel came out like this <_> then add some foam "space balls" in the grooves to keep things from rattling around.

Space balls? LOL - This is Neanderthal forum! Seriously, on a large panel I would advocate for a rabbet on the bevel side of the panel. The rabbet doesn't necessarily have to be visible once the panel is in place, but the rabbet in that location wiill minimize the issues with seasonal expansion / contraction. Going with a backside rabbet will create more slop in the joint and lead to the need for those Neanderthal spaces balls (waded up bits of paper for example). A double bevel (front and back) makes the seasonal issues much worse. The rabbet on the front side has the best chance for a panel that will be properly fit all year round without space balls.

[steven c newman]

Seeemed to work just fine with these...
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These have a rebate on the inside...
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All out of White Oak, of course...

[James Pallas]

Looks good Nick. Rebate on the back is one way to do it. The thickness of the panels is a mater of choice. Now that you have the process down you can experiment in the future.
Jim

[Daniel Rode]

FWIW - I would probably bevel the front for looks and bevel the back to fit it to the groove. While one can use a rabbet, I think beveling was more commonly done historically. I'm no expert, but I recall an older thread where this was discussed in detail. I think it was about a panel raising plane David Weaver made.

EDIT: Found the thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?223692-Warren-need-guidance-for-raised-panel-plane&p=2332686#post2332686

No need to repeat the debate :)

[Nick Stokes]

Got the panel fit and glued/clamped together...

I'm afraid the panel isn't as loose in it's grooves as it is supposed to be. I anticipate having problems with expansion in the future... But, it is done now... so I'll have to live with the result, and be smarter next time I do this.

When I cut the chamfers on the face of the panels, I struggled with getting the crisp edges of the chamfer to line up evenly and look nice and equal... I ended up rounding over the panel to give it a "pillow effect" look that Paul sellers shows on his clock video. It helped hide my issues, but I still don't think it looks as nice as it would have if I would have gotten the crisp edges correct.

It definitely has a hand made look to it, not the perfectness of a machine cut.

*Edit - One question. On the Cherry panels, as I planed down through, some very dark, almost black looking areas appeared? Almost like sap maybe? What is this? Is it good/bad? how will it accept finish? Is it something I should worry about, or a natural thing that adds character? You can notice it on the panel on the left.


Thank you for all the input. It was a great learning experience.
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[Jim Koepke]

It helped hide my issues, but I still don't think it looks as nice as it would have if I would have gotten the crisp edges correct.

As the maker being close to the work, you will always see every flaw magnified. Most people will not notice them.

It looks good and the tightness likely will not cause much problem, but time will tell.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Got the panel fit and glued/clamped together...

I'm afraid the panel isn't as loose in it's grooves as it is supposed to be. I anticipate having problems with expansion in the future... But, it is done now... so I'll have to live with the result, and be smarter next time I do this.

When I cut the chamfers on the face of the panels, I struggled with getting the crisp edges of the chamfer to line up evenly and look nice and equal... I ended up rounding over the panel to give it a "pillow effect" look that Paul sellers shows on his clock video. It helped hide my issues, but I still don't think it looks as nice as it would have if I would have gotten the crisp edges correct.

It definitely has a hand made look to it, not the perfectness of a machine cut.

*Edit - One question. On the Cherry panels, as I planed down through, some very dark, almost black looking areas appeared? Almost like sap maybe? What is this? Is it good/bad? how will it accept finish? Is it something I should worry about, or a natural thing that adds character? You can notice it on the panel on the left.


Thank you for all the input. It was a great learning experience.
321832

The good news about the fitup is that the panels are not likely to suffer too much from moisture absorption due to the fact its still summer and a bit humid (not sure where you are located). Assuming its not winter and heating season in your shop. They can shrink a bit this winter and everything will be okey dokey.

[Edward Miller]

*Edit - One question. On the Cherry panels, as I planed down through, some very dark, almost black looking areas appeared? Almost like sap maybe? What is this? Is it good/bad? how will it accept finish? Is it something I should worry about, or a natural thing that adds character? You can notice it on the panel on the left.



Pin knots and mineral streaking are normal for cherry, and I believe are explicitly allowed by the grading standards for the species (unlike in many other species). In my experience, the mineral streaks do not affect finishing.

[Jerry Olexa]

Fine tune it with your block plane to insure a proper fit..Only plane off a small portion each time.

[steven c newman]

One trick I use, is to have a piece of scrap wood, with the groove milled into it. Then I can test fit each side as i mill them
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I can block plane to fit as I go. While I try for sharp corners..
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I don't get too carried away about them.
But I do test fit a lot as I go...

[Jim Koepke]

One trick I use, is to have a piece of scrap wood, with the groove milled into it.

This is a good reason to make extra when using grooves in joinery.

jtk