Need advice on solid wood or veneer

[Greg Lewis]

Sorry to post yet another solid vs. veneer question, but as a less experienced person I need some advice and a search of the archives still leaves questions.

I’m going to make the clock in the photo below. I’m trying to decide between veneered panels versus solid wood for the side and back panels. Considering the time I’ll spend and the price of the clock movement, cost is not an issue. I don’t want to discover ten years from now that I should have done something different. I can get access to any tools needed or pay for professional millwork. I don’t want to make my own veneer but if necessary would pay someone to do it for me.

I don’t know what the 1910 version would have used — I understand that plywood did exist back then. But I’m not trying to make an exact replica. I have a modern Stickley cabinet with similarly sized panels and they are clearly veneered, but the end result looks just fine.

The largest side panels on the clock (the bottom ones) will be about 12 inches wide and about 43 inches long. The back, which would only be seen through the door, is about 20 inches wide.

I have read threads here and elsewhere on veneer over MDF; I’ve used some of that with success. But where I want ¼-inch for these side panels, I’ll only get .172, which seems quite thin.

My questions are:

- What about ¼-inch or even 5/16-inch solid wood for these panels? The original has two bookmatched pieces making up one panel.

- If so, what about splitting and warpage?

- In veneer over MDF, is there something thicker than the not-really-quarter-inch stuff out there. Such as a true ¼ or even 5/16 or so?

- What would you advise me to do, and why?

THANKS!

[Mike Henderson]

I'd sure try to do that with solid wood instead of veneer. Arts and Crafts furniture was generally solid wood.

Mike

[Dan Hahr]

That's an easy job with either a nice 12" wide board or bookmatching a 6" wide one. I'd go with 1/2" panels though, flush with the back of the frame on the inside.
Dan

[Greg Lewis]

Thanks, Mike.


That's an easy job with either a nice 12" wide board or bookmatching a 6" wide one. I'd go with 1/2" panels though, flush with the back of the frame on the inside.
Dan
Thanks, Dan. Great idea on the 1/2-inch flush mount. That seems like it would be easier to build than cutting rabbets in the edges of the rails and stiles for thinner panels. I presume I'd still need some way for them to move, though, to allow for expansion and contraction.

[Mike Schuch]

With solid wood you will have to account for wood movement through the seasons. If you are working off of a plan this should be accounted for in the design. I have nothing against veneer but like you said it is obviously veneer. For a hand crafted piece of art that will hopefully be in your family for generations I would definitely go for solid wood.

[Dan Hahr]

I would build it as a basic frame and panel assembly. I'd use a 1/4 inch toungue on the panel and 1/4 groove in the frame. I'd rabbet the back of the panel and size it so that you had about a 1/16 inch gap all around. Pin it top and bottom to keep it from getting off center. The 1/2 inch panel is stronger and easier to work with for me.
Dan

[Brian Tymchak]

- In veneer over MDF, is there something thicker than the not-really-quarter-inch stuff out there. Such as a true ¼ or even 5/16 or so?


My personal choice would be to use solid wood for this project, probably frame and panel construction as has been suggested.

However, I don't understand your comment about .172" MDF. There is 1/4" MDF available (I can get it at my local woodworking store) and all MDF I've used is true to it's dimension (or even a tad oversize on occasion). As an alternative, there is 1/4" Baltic Birch ply which you could veneer both sides to keep it from warping.

[Greg Lewis]

I would build it as a basic frame and panel assembly. I'd use a 1/4 inch toungue on the panel and 1/4 groove in the frame. I'd rabbet the back of the panel and size it so that you had about a 1/16 inch gap all around. Pin it top and bottom to keep it from getting off center. The 1/2 inch panel is stronger and easier to work with for me.
Dan
Ah ha! You mean something like this:

321214

[Greg Lewis]

...
However, I don't understand your comment about .172" MDF. There is 1/4" MDF available (I can get it at my local woodworking store) and all MDF I've used is true to it's dimension (or even a tad oversize on occasion). ...

Brian:

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm new to this, but the only time I've used this kind of stuff I went to the local specialty wood place and asked for 1/4-inch, quarter sawn white oak "plywood" and that's what they gave me. It looks like about .020 oak both sides over MDF, the total thickness being .172. It has nice ray flecks and finished up well. It worked fine for what I needed it for, but this clock is not at all in the same class of project, thus my need for advice. Thanks again.

[roger wiegand]

I could go either with solid or with real plywood, depending on which I could find with the nicest figure. I generally use plywood (not the MDF core stuff) for thin panels because of less concern about wood movement plus the ply I can get from Boulter Plywood frequently has much nicer figure than the solid wood I can find. (But can be shockingly expensive-- I got a gorgeous sheet of birdseye maple ply recently, but it was $400--ouch!

[william watts]

Thats a niece project. I would try to use traditional materials where ever possible and not have mdf any near it. The side panels, if solid wood, at 1/4" or 1/2" would be to thin. The side panels at 3/4" with a rabit to fit the groove in the rail/stiles would be a good choice.

You can also glue up a poplar panel with 1/2" poplar and 1/8" cross banding and then veneer over that. this makes a really nice panel. I have done that and like it better than plywood, which you could also use.

[Peter Quinn]

The issue with this type of construction and veneer or plywood panels is the veneer rarely matches the solids in hue and color, so you have to have considerable finess to stain and tone the two different elements to look natural. I'm doing a whole house full of quartered white oak presently and its challenging. Personally I'd go with solid panels probably 5/8" minimum thickness, and either rabbit or a cove the inside of the panels. I don't like very thin solids, they tend to crack easily in the long run, and I don't like 1/4" veneered side panels on a piece that should feel sturdy and solid but instead feels thin and hollow. I'd build it like any frame and panel assembly, the through tenons will certainly make the thing solid! The back is considerably less visible so there you could take your pick, I might prefer plywood there for its dimensional stability, if you have a vacuum bag you could lay up some baltic birch with a shop sawn veneer for a real nice touch, or you could rig a small press and do the same sans vacuum press, or just go with commercial sheet goods. Issue is you will have to buy a whole sheet of WSQO plywood at around $110 for a 1/2" single sided (which is what I'd probably use if I were using commercial plywood) and you only need a small rip, not economical. Looks like a great piece, should be a fun build, lots of challenges there.

[Tony Leonard]

I like veneer. Sometimes, I find the veneer first and then figure out a project for it. I got some African mahogany 1/4 sawn real cheap once and it was plenty wide enough to make a dresser. I used baltic birch instead of MDF for that one.

I would find some really nicely figured veneer and use it on 1/4" MDF for the panels. I like a lot of figure and making those panels would be fairly easy. You could do a nice book match if preferred. No issues with movement either. I would use a plain (less expensive) veneer for the backside of the panels. I would try to have the grain continue from bottom to top. That sucker will be heavy regardless! Whew! Good luck with it. Post some pics!

Tony

321243

[Jim Dwight]

I used cherry veneered mdf on a kitchen island because it was what I could find locally that was really 1/4 inch. I prefer plywood because it's stronger and nicer to work with. I would probably use 1/4 veneered plywood for this for several reasons. First it is quicker than making solid wood panels. It should be less expensive but probably not by much since you will probably have to buy a lot more plywood than you need. Third, the weight of the piece will be lower. This will be a pretty heavy piece and getting the weight down a little may help somebody's back. Lastly, you can glue a plywood panel in place making the frame stronger than one made of solid wood (which must be floated).

But solid wood would be nice too. I've seen shaker pieces with a raised panel turned inward. Fancy.

[Chris Padilla]

As to veneer vs solid wood, it is a matter of what wood you want to use. If the wood is reasonably priced (only you can judge this) and available in sizes you need, then I'd go solid wood. If the wood you want is horribly expensive and/or not available in sizes you need, veneer might be the only way to go. There are A LOT of really cool veneers out there of wood you'll never ever see in any other form other than veneer.

Then again I took a large plank of black walnut and cut my own veneers from it and vacuum-pressed them to MDF to make a tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396-Tansu).

[Greg Lewis]

As to veneer vs solid wood, it is a matter of what wood you want to use. If the wood is reasonably priced (only you can judge this) and available in sizes you need, then I'd go solid wood. If the wood you want is horribly expensive and/or not available in sizes you need, veneer might be the only way to go. There are A LOT of really cool veneers out there of wood you'll never ever see in any other form other than veneer.

Then again I took a large plank of black walnut and cut my own veneers from it and vacuum-pressed them to MDF to make a tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396-Tansu).

Thanks, Chris, and everyone. Yes, there are some great veneers out there. I've seen stuff in the local specialty shop that would be a crime to cut up. I'd just want to frame it as it is. The thin stuff I mentioned in my first post was used above my fireplace mantel. The original plan was to hang a photograph there but the ray fleck looked so nice I couldn't hide it.

This Stickley clock copy will be quarter-sawn white oak. As to the price of the wood, there is a sig line by someone on a machinist forum where I am most of the time that says, "I can't afford to buy cheap tools." And the same goes here. I don't want to cut corners. I'll be buying a top-of-the-line Kieninger mechanical movement and chemically etching my own dial from copper or brass. And I expect to spend quite a bit of time on this to make it right. I want this to be a legacy piece for my descendants. So the price of the materials becomes less of a consideration.

[Chris Padilla]

QSWO is readily available (personally, NOT a fan of any kind of oak! LOL) so I'd go solid wood all the way and not look back. Sounds like a great project! I hope you can put up and maintain a build thread here. We'd love to help you out and watch the project take form. There are a lot of good minds here all at your disposal.

[Greg Lewis]

...I hope you can put up and maintain a build thread here. We'd love to help you out and watch the project take form. There are a lot of good minds here all at your disposal.
I'll do my best. This is a hobby project so everything else comes first. I've got two other hobbies (with a long list of projects), eight grandkids, a house, two vehicles, and somewhere in there is a wife (who is very supportive of everything I do). I hope to get started next week.

[Lee Schierer]

For an heirloom item like that I would go with solid wood.

[Allan Speers]

As I get older, I'm becoming much less of a "it MUST be solid wood!" snob.

However, the problem I have with veneer and this project is the two areas with glass. You can (of course) see the exposed edges of the two cut-outs, and I sure as heck wouldn't want that to be stain plywood edges. I supposed you could veneer those edges, but then you'd see the side of that veneer from the front. You could putty & stain it, but it would still not fool an experienced eye.

There would be no way, that I know of, to completely hide the fact that you used veneer, and for me that's the tail that wags the dog. (or maybe in this case it "shakes" the dog, I dunno ..... )

[Greg Lewis]

....
However, the problem I have with veneer and this project is the two areas with glass. You can (of course) see the exposed edges of the two cut-outs, and I sure as heck wouldn't want that to be stain plywood edges. I supposed you could veneer those edges, but then you'd see the side of that veneer from the front. You could putty & stain it, but it would still not fool an experienced eye.

There would be no way, that I know of, to completely hide the fact that you used veneer, and for me that's the tail that wags the dog. (or maybe in this case it "shakes" the dog, I dunno ..... )

Not sure what you mean here, Allan. The sides are in the shadows in the photo and hard to see, but they are traditional panel construction with rails and stiles, the panels being set into rabbets in said stiles and rails. So edges wouldn't show. The door would also be stile and rail from cut lumber. The original question regarded the inset panels in the sides.

But many of you have advised me to use solid, and Dan has suggested a way to do it with thick panels, so I'll go with solid. I wasn't sure solid would work, but none of you have indicated any reservations with that.

Although those who advocate for veneer have good points, I think I like the notion of a more robust case. The modern Stickley cabinet I have is a nice looking piece but the veneered door panels have a lightweight feel to them that I don't think I want in this clock. Also, I can see this taking a hit from my grandchildren's children at some point in what I hope is a long life, and I want it to survive.

Thank you all again for your comments. You've been most helpful. While this may look like a simple set of square cuts and rectangular parts, there are some tricky tenons and other bits that will challenge my limited experience. I'll keep you posted on the progress.

[Enrico Caruso]

Greg, I would advise that you do some research on the case construction that was used for a clock of this style and period, before finalizing your design and materials. Use the NAWCC (National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors) archives [www.NAWCC.org]. I believe that you will find that solid wood was used for such a clock, and not veneer. I collect antique/vintage clocks and a 1900-1910 period tall case clock that I have is solid mahogany throughout with 1/4" thick panel wood. You can get 1/4" thick panel woods from Constantines in FL. I am building a 30"x18"x18", 6 drawer sewing spool cabinet with birdseye maple panels on three side, and got beautiful 1/4"(exactly) panel wood there for less than $90 w/shipping. I appreciate what you are about to undertake. I am an antique/vintage clock collector for many decades, and have beautifully constructed clock cases dating back to 1823 from Eli Terry & Sons (with wood works movements also). If you are in the Columbia,PA area you may wish to visit the NAWCC museum to see clock similar to what you wish to build. Good luck with the project.
Enrico Caruso

[Allan Speers]

Not sure what you mean here, Allan. The sides are in the shadows in the photo and hard to see, but they are traditional panel construction with rails and stiles, the panels being set into rabbets in said stiles and rails. So edges wouldn't show. The door would also be stile and rail from cut lumber. The original question regarded the inset panels in the sides. .

I'm talking about the plywood edges you would see around the outside of each piece of glass.

[Greg Lewis]

Alan:
Got it. There wouldn't be any plywood in the doors. Nevertheless, the consensus is to go with solid which I'll do.

Enrico:
Thanks for the tips. I had completely forgotten about Constantines. I'll check them out. I've been to the NAWCC chat board but I'll check the archive. I'm not a member so I might have to join to get access.

As to plans and designs, I've checked out the Stickley original clock in the L.A. Museum of Art and have this set of plans for reference:
http://www.woodstore.net/plans/gifts/clocks/1900-Arts-and-Crafts-Heirloom-Tall-Clock.html

The plan set dimensions don't match the Stickley original (nor do some of the details), but the plans will give me the key joinery needed. I'll just have to change the plan's dimensions and details to match what I have from the original. I was able to measure a couple of key parts on the one in L.A., and I also took extensive photos of it. Then I'll use Photoshop to measure unknown parts after sizing the photo to the known dimension. This can get tricky due to rectilinear distortion if the photos aren't straight on. Even with that, some of the smaller dimensions will have to be estimated since you can only enlarge an image so far before pixelization obscures edges. The head-on photo of the clock on the museum website was probably taken with a view camera as there is no such distortion. I've requested a high-resolution copy but haven't heard back yet.

I may make up a quick and dirty mock-up out of cheap lumber to check proportions before I start cutting the high-priced stuff. I've done this on other projects and it has been worthwhile.

Thanks again everyone. I'll try to keep you posted on the progress.

[Bill Orbine]

I'm not sure if anyone has mention this in this thread......but if materials is to be QSWO, you can rest easy because the wood movement is minimal because of the type of cut. Go solid all the way. But do allow for some movement.

[Greg Lewis]

Thanks, Bill. I'm going to seek out the best stuff I can get. Here in Fresno, CA., the options are more limited than in a major metropolis. The last time I used QSWO I needed some 5/4 and it had to be ordered. Thus I more or less had to take what I got, which was OK. But the inability to pick and choose does make me nervous. A friend of mine is much more knowledgeable about the local sources so I'll be checking in with him before I buy.

[Chris Padilla]

You might give Jackel in Watsonville a phone call and see what they have on hand. I know they usually have QSWO on hand and they aren't terribly far from you. Might be worth a trip.