Adirondack Chairs - White Oak Alternative?

[Ian Scofield]

Looking to make two adirondack chairs using the veritas adirondack plus plans. 2 chairs + 2 foot stools. After putting in all the parts into cutlist I'll need 83bd/ft so call it 90 (minimum) more like 100 for the extra 10%.

Original thought was to use cypress, but from what I'm reading it doesn't have the following like it used to since the new growth cypress doesn't hold a candle to the old growth cypress which everyone was raving about.

So I thought, what about western red cedar since I can get it ridiculously cheap here in Western WA. But upon researching that, it seems like it's too soft and isn't as structurally sound.

So I thought heck, I'll just use what everyone is recommending and go with White Oak. Looked at everywhere in Washington and Oregon and the cheapest I can find is $5.50 bd/ft. So after tax, these two chairs are looking to cost $600.

Are there any other woods I should consider or should I reconsider cypress/oak? Was hoping to build these chairs for a little cheaper...

[Mel Fulks]

Read the originals were hemlock which is sometimes sold as "hem-fir". I consider the western red cedar superior to that,and it's not heavy,I would use it. Don't like out door chairs that can't be easily moved, white oak is too heavy .

[Allan Speers]

If price is that important, I'd start checking Craigslist every day, and snag whatever lumber comes along for a decent price, as long as it's a decent "outdoor" species. Personally, wouldn't make ANYTHING out of Red Cedar, because it is full of carcinogens. Even when finished, I'd rather not be laying my sweaty arms & hands on it all the time.

I recently snagged a nice load of African Mahogany (the dark, tight-grained variety) for about $4 / bf. It's 12/4 so maybe better used for something else, but I have nothing else I need to make with it, and Af. Mahogany is a reasonably good outdoor wood, plus it makes lovely chairs, so that's probably what I'll use it for.

[Allan Speers]

Here's a list I once made of "the best" woods for outdoor furniture.

Note that my two main criteria were rot resistance and stability. If you want low weight as well, American Chestnut start to look very good. Maybe you could find some reclaimed Chestnut for a good price, if it's not too thin. Often, such lumber goes for cheap if it has a lot of nail holes, but since these charis don't require long lengths, that would probably work out.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31826742/Adirondack%20Chairs%20-%20best%20wood%3F%20%20.jpg

[Ian Scofield]

Thanks everyone for the replies thus far and the list of other woods to use.


If price is that important, I'd start checking Craigslist every day, and snag whatever lumber comes along for a decent price, as long as it's a decent "outdoor" species. Personally, wouldn't make ANYTHING out of Red Cedar, because it is full of carcinogens. Even when finished, I'd rather not be laying my sweaty arms & hands on it all the time.

I recently snagged a nice load of African Mahogany (the dark, tight-grained variety) for about $4 / bf. It's 12/4 so maybe better used for something else, but I have nothing else I need to make with it, and Af. Mahogany is a reasonably good outdoor wood, plus it makes lovely chairs, so that's probably what I'll use it for.

Thanks for the tip, I'll start scouring craigslist to see if there are any good deals and hopefully start stocking up on things.

[Lee Schierer]

I made this porch swing out of western red cedar more than 20 years ago. It is still going strong and three adults can easily sit on it without worry. I used all stainless steel fasteners.321075

[Brian Tymchak]

Looking to make two adirondack chairs using the veritas adirondack plus plans. 2 chairs + 2 foot stools.
..
it seems like it's too soft and isn't as structurally sound.



WRC will be fine for those chairs. The span of the pieces in the seat is so short that unless the wood has defects such as weak knots, the load of even a very large person should be easily supported.

[Art Mann]

If I could buy Western Red Cedar at a bargain price, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

[Michael Stein]

Here's a list I once made of "the best" woods for outdoor furniture.

Note that my two main criteria were rot resistance and stability. If you want low weight as well, American Chestnut start to look very good. Maybe you could find some reclaimed Chestnut for a good price, if it's not too thin. Often, such lumber goes for cheap if it has a lot of nail holes, but since these charis don't require long lengths, that would probably work out.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31826742/Adirondack%20Chairs%20-%20best%20wood%3F%20%20.jpg

Is there access to this list in PDF or MS Word (or other searchable) format? Would love to have a copy for reference.

Thanks.

[peter gagliardi]

What I wouldn't use is African Mahogany! That stuff is so full of tension, and furs and splinters easily. Firewood i say. Try finding Sipo/Utile. Excellent outdoor wood,excellent working properties, relatively light in weight, should easily be had for less than $4.00-4.50 BF.

[Marc Ward]

Are you looking to build the folding version?

[Art Mann]

Is there access to this list in PDF or MS Word (or other searchable) format? Would love to have a copy for reference.

Thanks.

I don't want to be overly critical, but I would do my own research if I were you. That list doesn't include White Oak, which is one of the strongest and more rot resistant woods you can buy. It does, however, list a number of species which are not generally regarded as woods for outside use. The other problem I see with that list is it contains a lot of species that are very hard to find or are prohibitively expensive for outdoor furniture applications.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Ian, at $5.50/bdft, are you buying quarter or rift sawn white oak? Here, in northern CA, quarter sawn white oak can be bought at $5.60/bdft.

[Bill Adamsen]

The most comprehensive list of wood attributes (and trustworthy) is the Forest Products Laboratory (USDA/US Forest Service) manual on wood entitled "Wood As An Engineering Material."
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/front.pdf

Section 3 includes the rot-resistance characteristics.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch03.pdf?
I refer to section 4 all the time while building.

As Art mentioned, don't rely on a list that has clear defects. There are so many factors that you'll need to take into consideration, and collectively, those only you will know. Do you plan to paint it? Will it be in sun? Subject to rain? Do you plan to move inside in winter? Does it need to be light enough to carry around? What kind of fastening will be used? How long do you expect it to last? How important is cost? Based on the answers to all your questions, you will find the right material. Maybe plastic or aluminum!

I have built a number of chairs and used painted oak and painted or even unfinished WR Cedar. I don't find that many woods hold up well with a clear finish except certain types of teak. But teak is heavy, expensive and potentially ethically questionable.

Oh, the FPL Manual, I've seen folks post about it here over the years so it is nothing new, and pretty well known by the community. I stitched together all the chapters and mailed to my Kindle app so that I can reference it "locally" any time it's needed ... which is frequent.

[Stan Calow]

I made a bench out of white oak, and its held up very well, but it is very heavy, and I've had a black mold problem on it that I can't seem to beat.

[Bill Adamsen]

I made a bench out of white oak ... and I've had a black mold problem on it that I can't seem to beat.

Same experience, White oak requires significant attention (diligent varnishing) to prevent onset of black mold. Once it is in there, it is hard to beat.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with Art ,and that list makes no distinction between old growth or heartwood and new wood.

[Art Mann]

Same experience, White oak requires significant attention (diligent varnishing) to prevent onset of black mold. Once it is in there, it is hard to beat.

All wood projects, regardless of species, will turn black with mildew after a while where I live. I build Adirondack chairs out of old growth cypress and they will turn black in a year regardless of finish. I used to use spar varnish yearly but I now use acrylic latex because it looks nice longer and is easier to maintain.

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I'd use cedar. I know it's not the prettiest of woods, but it's weather/bug resistant, and critically, LIGHT, which is something I value in outdoor furniture.

If you can find it I'm also a fan of cypress.

[Peter Quinn]

I'd use the cedar, you may have to adjust the thickness of some of your parts to accommodate it's greater flex, but it's plenty strong enough. There is a firm here that makes theit own version of an Adirondack chair, very comfortable, durable, they sell them for around $550 each! White oak is fine, but it's not from where you are, so probably a shipping premium to get it there, and it's very heavy! If you want to build a chair you need a lift to move oak might be a good call.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Your 83 board feet, if actually 3/4" in thickness, would weigh 108 lbs in cedar, and 399 lbs in white oak. While a fraction of that will go away to make the chairs, cedar sounds a lot better to me.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I have four adirondack chairs. Two of them are made out of redwood. The other two are made out of qtr-sawn white oak (there were 4, but 2 were given away as gifts). I like the white oak chairs a lot more than the redwood because of their weight. The redwood, while much lighter, feel flimsy compared to the other two. I find it interesting that most opinion so far leans toward lighter wood for outdoor furniture. Isn't teak one of the most desirable wood for outdoor furniture and also quite dense and heavy? I've not worked with teak.

[Mel Fulks]

Ian, don't make the mistake of disdain for the cedar because it is cheap ,I asure you its not cheap everywhere. Had not heard that cancer warning before and I do take it seriously ,but the originals were painted and to me that is more appropriate as I don't think even the finest finishes are competition for outdoor color. Wear a mask making your chairs and enjoy your local bounty.

[Val Kosmider]

I know it is a sin to a "woodworker", but it is a new era.

I have looking to actually "BUY" some out of door furniture, perhaps in the Adirondack style, and have seen some very high quality furniture which is made from.....sorry...ouch.....synthetic material.

I know. I know. But it is strong, lasts forever, is easy to clean. Has no rot or mold issues. Requires no annual finish updates. And quite honestly, it looks as good as anything made from 'natural 'materials. The supplier, oddly enough, is actually an Amish 'factory".

[Yonak Hawkins]

...some very high quality furniture which is made from.....sorry...ouch.....synthetic material.

I agree with you, Val. Synthetic material is my go-to anymore for a lot of outdoor stuff. Maybe it's a "sin" for a woodworker but it's not a sin for a craftsman that doesn't want to deal with regular maintenance.

[Jim Dwight]

I made a couple Adirondack chairs out of pressure treated pine that sit on our dock. They are dirty and the paint is off in places but are structurally fine. I painted them, no desire to sit on unpainted PT, and they work well. The wood shrunk some drying out and some plugs over screws are sticking up but it doesn't stop the chairs from being useful. I need to sand them to help clean them and deal with the shrinkage and then paint them again.

[Allan Speers]

What I wouldn't use is African Mahogany! That stuff is so full of tension, and furs and splinters easily. Firewood i say. Try finding Sipo/Utile. Excellent outdoor wood,excellent working properties, relatively light in weight, should easily be had for less than $4.00-4.50 BF.

I've worked with it plenty, and the good stuff (Khaya) is not very different from West Indies Mahogany. It's a litle harder on tools, and not quite as stable, but "close enough for jazz."

You must be talking about Entandrophragma, which is lighter in color, and kind of stringy. That stuff shouldn't even be called Mahogany. I've also seen both Luan & Meranti sold as "African Mahogany," which is basically a scam. Khaya is lovely stuff.

[Allan Speers]

Is there access to this list in PDF or MS Word (or other searchable) format? Would love to have a copy for reference.

Thanks.

Michael, all I have is the jpeg, sorry.

- but I created this from some online species database. It was so long ago, I forget the name, but some folks here must surely know what it's called. I think it's from the same website as "The Sagulator" though I'm not positive.

Anyway, it's a GREAT resource, if you can find it. It will sort most known species based on every criteria that you input as important.

[lowell holmes]

I would go with quarter or rift sawn white oak. It has good characteristics for weather exposure. I use it all the time. I make exterior window trim and door trim out of it. It costs more, but when you make it, it'll be with you.

[Ian Scofield]

Are you looking to build the folding version?

No it's the non-folding one but it comes with the plans to include the rounded bottom to make them rocking chairs and the foot stool:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=32755&cat=1,46158,42665&ap=1

I know white oak would be superior in durability/hardness compared to cedar, but with the budget I'm trying to build these and after quite a few people endorsing Western Red Cedar, I'm thinking this will be the way to go. Especially since cedar is so insanely cheap here in WA ($1.18/bdft)

I will definitely try white oak someday for a future project. Really want to try teak someday as that is the cream of the crop for outdoor furniture.

[Allan Speers]

Same experience, White oak requires significant attention (diligent varnishing) to prevent onset of black mold. Once it is in there, it is hard to beat.

This is good to know.

You would think there's some kind of chemical that you could soak into the Oak, before finishing, that would deter mold. Something like Sporicidin, or the like. No?

[Allan Speers]

I don't want to be overly critical, but I would do my own research if I were you. That list doesn't include White Oak, which is one of the strongest and more rot resistant woods you can buy. It does, however, list a number of species which are not generally regarded as woods for outside use. The other problem I see with that list is it contains a lot of species that are very hard to find or are prohibitively expensive for outdoor furniture applications.

I agree strongly that he should make his own list, which is why I mentioned the type of website I used to make mine.

White Oak is not on MY list, because as I wrote clearly, my personal most critical factors were rot resistance and STABILITY. Outdoor furniture will be subject to huge humidity & temperature changes, so it seems to me that stability should be a pretty important consideration. White Oak is OK, I guess (the mold issue notwithstanding) and it's great for fences, but it doesn't make my list.

I could be wrong. (this goes without saying. ;)

[Curt Harms]

I've used both White Oak and WRC outdoors. The White Oak has been okay as far as durability but it bowed. This was a small sample so it may have just been the boards. I recently rebuilt the wings on an outdoor table built from WRC. I learned to not use grooves and tenons when there's bird seed on the top. The bird seed got in the grooves between the slats and held moisture. The rails and the ends of the slats rotted but the rest of the slat was fine. I cut the rotted part of the slats, a light planing to remove old finish and they look like new. Re-used 'em for the top on a smaller table.

If you think it necessary, could you go thicker? Like a full inch instead of 3/4" assuming such material is available? An outdoor wood that has interested me is locust, either black or honey. Sounds like it's heavy and requires sharp tools, very durable outdoors though. It doesn't seem all that easy to find and I don't know that it's available on the west coast.

[Bob Grier]

Ian,

These were made a few years ago and have been outside in Tacoma continuously although last winter they were covered with a vinyl fabric cover to help shed the rain. Winter before, they were on covered patio but exposed to blowing rain.

They are made of mahogany and sepele. Sepele on arms and legs and maybe some of slats. Cost was about $100 each. Screws are stainless and arm leg joints are glued. Finish was 2 or 3 coats of phen oil (something like that). I don't like the oil finish so much because when they are wet from the rain, it bleeds so have to be careful to not sit on them when wet. I think another type of oil than I used would have been better. Maybe tung or BLO. I have not added any oil yet but will next summer.

The reason I am responding here is that you are near Seattle and if you watch CraigsList near end of month, you will see advertisement for cutoffs sold by the pound sold by musical instrument manufacturer. That is where I got this lumber and then I resawed it to dimension I wanted and finish planed it. These 2 chairs are different dimension height and depth and shape of arm because lady wanted shorter and not so deep and with bigger arms so it fit her better and had more room for her drink.

I hope attachment works. Not sure.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Personally, wouldn't make ANYTHING out of Red Cedar, because it is full of carcinogens. .

Hmm. 30 minutes of using Google fails to reveal ANYTHING implicating cedar as more carcinogenic than any other wood. Sounds like a rumor started by the pressure treated industry. Neither OSHA nor NIOSH have special regulations for cedar.

[Allan Speers]

Hmm. 30 minutes of using Google fails to reveal ANYTHING implicating cedar as more carcinogenic than any other wood. Sounds like a rumor started by the pressure treated industry. Neither OSHA nor NIOSH have special regulations for cedar.

You might actually be right.

I checked my database, and the three urls I had saved (from around 10 years ago) are mysteriously no longer active webpages. I can find anything currently, either, but back then there were articles galore about it, from reliable sources, too. Maybe it was one of those "viral" internet things - started as you say and then picked up & repeated by varous websites.

The EPA DOES currently consider Cedar oil to be toxic, and capable of causing lung & liver problems, but not in the amounts typically experienced in real-world use.

Still, it's a poison, and (from what I've read over the years) there seem to be more woodworkers badly affected by Cedar dust than any other species except maybe Cocobolo. It can also cause a type of asthma & skin rashes. see:
http://www.ehow.com/list_6958932_dangers-cedar-wood-shavings_.html

Cedar shaving are also known to make chickens very sick.

I personally will avoid the stuff.

[Allan Speers]

FWIW, and yes this artcle is suspect because it no longer exists online, but here is an excerpt that I had saved:

"Outdoor and marine woods have the ability to resist rot because they have natural poisons in them that kill or inhibit molds, bacteria, and bugs.

Cedar is a poor choice for playground equipment and decks as well for three reasons: poison, slivers, and weakness. The nice smell of cedar is a natural pesticide that kills mold, bugs, and bacteria. All good outdoor woods contain natural poisons, but not all of them release those poisons into the environment.
Cedar is a porous wood that continually releases its poisons into the air so that all living things near it are exposed and breathing poison all the time. When you touch it you get an even bigger dose. People who think it smells nice do not have allergies to it, nor long exposure. I have allergies and 2 seconds exposure to cedar makes me have sneezing fits. Prolonged exposure can cause allergies or even poisoning.

My cousin is a saw mill operator. He was healthy as a horse all his life and never had allergies, nor asthma. After a few years working with cedar, he developed a severe allergy to it and got cedar poisoning. He kept working with it because at that time he didn’t know why he was sick. He then developed severe asthma. He eventually went partly blind in one eye. He was diagnosed with severe cedar poisoning and allergies & asthma caused by exposure to cedar.

A nurse friend of mine had a pet rat. One day she bought cedar chips for the rat’s cage thinking it would smell nice. The rat was poisoned within a month and became very ill and went blind in both eyes. The rat had to be put to sleep due to cedar poisoning. Cedar also gives off a lot of slivers.

Cedar makes fine siding and roofing because no one is touching it or has their nose near it. Also, siding and roofing don’t require strength. As for a fence, cedar is fine, if not near a garden. But don’t put it where you’ll eat the cedar poison that leaches into the ground. The poison leaches out every time the cedar gets rained on. Cedar poisoning is a well know malady of woodworkers and loggers from breathing the sawdust. For the rest of us there is much less danger, but don’t think for a minute that cedar is non poisonous because it’s natural. More people get poisoned by cedar than by any other wood (including pressure treated wood). For those people with allergies, they would be very wise to avoid cedar. Even if you’re not allergic to it now, you can easily become allergic after repeated exposure."

[Prashun Patel]

If you think cedar is more or less safe than many other common woods, you may want to do some more research, and cite sources that use more specific toxicological and chemcal terms than "full of poisons".

I work with essential oil of cedar and other wood oils for a living. I have seen proper toxicological data on a few species of cedar. In fact, i prepare safety data sheets and regulatory documents for such mixtures, so my data sources are backed by research i and my company trust. This is not to say you should trust my opinion that its safe; it is to say when it comes to matters of toxicology, the most dangerous thing to your health is trusting what you read on the internet. Do your own research and dont trust uncited sources that read like blog posts.

[Bill Adamsen]

Bob:

Those are very sharp ... clean design and execution.

[Art Mann]

That quote doesn't sound like something a professional would write.

[Bill Adamsen]

You would think there's some kind of chemical that you could soak into the Oak, before finishing, that would deter mold. Something like Sporicidin, or the like. No?

Allan, adding chemicals - beyond the adhesives, fillers, dye coloring and finishing products I currently use (and consider to be "bad enough") - is beyond my interest level. White oak is a most marvelous wood. It steam bends beautifully, is quite flexible for simple lamination glue ups (compare to mahogany for instance) and while it has the reputation for not gluing up particularly well seems to glue up well enough in my experience. It is also very hard (Janka) and strong. In fact, it's the strength that seems to cause problems. For instance door thresholds on southern exposures ... the temperature and wet/dry cycling causes wood movement which is a force stronger than the glue. My challenge with White oak (and probably any species) is the common usage on high sun exposure boat parts (and the like - thresholds, railings) such as gunwales and rails with a clear varnish finish such as traditional Epifanes. When exposed to sun and physical wear, the finishes eventually break down. Breakdown exposes the wood to direct sun and water. Once the wood has been exposed to sun and water, it develops deep inclusions of dirt and mold. I've tried many products (Whink, bleach) to clean before refinishing. The most effective way is to replace the wood. Or maintain well before the breakdown occurs. Maintenance requires planning and forethought, a lot of labor and if deferred can sometimes remove the boat from service which may not be desirable.

I was looking for a photo of a six section lamination of white oak I did for a handrail. It is really beautiful ... 150 feet long and winds sinuously down a steep slope adjacent to stone steps to a Berkshire lakeside. It was built with custom iron brackets supporting on the bottom, so that it "floats" apparently in air (from a distance) and allows hands to run continuously during the walks up and down. Everyone that uses it loves it. It stays in place year round. So it requires maintenance virtually every year to keep the varnish in place. Some places more than others (direct sunlight). Can't find a good photo.

But in my search I came across this photo. A bunch of tillers for Dyer 9 winter frostbite racing dinghys. No one ever thinks about them until September, and then there isn't enough time to maintain them property. But even if there was, just one season of deferred maintenance, and they all get the deep black typical of the oaks. Some of these may be red oak - I'm not sure what the Anchorage uses - it was just a random photo I took at some point. But it is pretty illustrative of what happens when a clear varnish type finish is maintained, or isn't.

Found a photo of the White oak rail and added it. Typically revarnished with 5+ coats of Epifane every 2 years. The areas in the sun (see lower right) really take a beating.

[Bob Grier]

This is Bob, I did not design the adirondack chairs but thanks for the compliment. They are based on plan Rockler was selling and may still be selling. I modified it a bit. If anyone wants to use their plan, be careful, there is a dimension error that can cause a problem. It had something to do with legs and angle between the legs and something else. Lay it out and find the problem before making sawdust.