Beginner turner becoming frustrated by bowls

[Matt Krusen]

Hey everyone, I'm new to turning and am having some trouble with bowls. I use a Oneway Talon chuck with the wormscrew to rough out the blank then continue to turn the outside of the bowl and create a recess on the bottom. I then turn the bowl around and expand the jaws into the bottom recess so as to hollow the inside and finish the bowl. However, I continue to have the bowl come off the chuck when hollowing the inside. The recess on the bottom cracks and the bowl comes a flyin'. Am I making the recess to shallow or maybe too close to "perimeter/outside" of the bottom? Am I over-tightening the jaws in the recess? I also have a set of Super Jaws so I could use those as well. I am currently turning small bowls (6"x6"x3") on a Rikon mini lathe. Any tips, advice, and suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I am quickly falling in love with this woodworking rabbit hole.

Thank you,
Matt Krusen

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

have you tried a tenon instead of a recess? typically it is easier to grip a tenon than expand into a recess.

what jaws are you using? If dovetailed jaws - your tenon (or recess) should be shaped to accept the dovetail.

are you checking your chuck frequently to make sure it is not loosening?

[Mark Patoka]

I would try using a tenon also so you can clamp down on the piece. I've never felt comfortable using the recess method for the reasons you are experiencing. It's also pretty easy to clean up the bottom when finished.

[Sean Hughto]

So there are a million youtube videos that probably show all this better. But here is a video I made 5 years ago just to illustrate my process at the time. I DO NOT use the blue tape to take care of the tenon anymore. Shortly after I made this I adopted a process where I use the tailstock to press the bowl into the padded plate and leave a very small narrow plug that I knock off with a shallow gouge. Bottom line, like the others, I recommend you invest in a chuck and use a tenon.

http://hughto.blogspot.com/2010/12/blog-post.html

[Geoff Whaling]

Check out Glen Lucas & Mike Mahoney's DVD's & promo clips on Youtube.

[Tom Megow]

I use the oneway talon chuck as well. I use a recess and tenons for various reasons. I learned using a tenon though. My Talon's jaws are not tapered. If you use a tenon be sure to make the tenon is short enough to leave a small gap between the end of the tenon and the base end of the chuck. The youtube videos will shown you what I mean. You will get this right! Just keep trying. Capt Eddie and Robohippy were my main stays, there are MANY other good turners with excellent videos out there I might add. THE BEST thing I did was attend a local woodturning club's monthly event

[Russell Neyman]

Think about it: A "Mortise" mount (placing the jaws in a recessed hole) pushes the wood apart, while a tenon mount (outside) compresses the wood. You're just asking for the wood to split with the inside version. Other than circumstances where you cannot grab onto a piece any other way -- roughing the outside of an irregular piece, where you'd probably engage the tailstock for security -- I'd always go with a tenon mount.

[Dennis Ford]

+1 on using a tenon. A recess is great for platters or similar shapes but requires quite a large bottom on a bowl.

[Tom Wilson66]

On using a recess, the ruleof thumb is to leave at least 3/4" of wood outside the recess to prevent splitting of the wood outside the tenon. Also, the diameter of the recesss should be just greater than the closed diameter of the jaws, to spread the pressure over as large an area as possible, simce more of the jaw's perimeter will contact the wood. I have used recesses often (still prefer the tenons though) and not had any trouble if I follow the above rules.

[Ben Pierce]

Here's a vote for faceplates. Very secure hold, perhaps better for beginners. (You do have to waste the wood held by the screws, or use a glue block.)

[Matt Krusen]

Thanks everyone. Looks like I'll be switching to tenons.

[Clark Miles]

+1 for a tenon. I too was in the same boat not long ago. I've watched many YouTube videos on bowl turning, read books, went to local club meetings, etc.. Then I went to SWAT last month. I learned to sharpen my tools, and that has helped immensely! I watched Stuart Batty turn a bowl and realized that I was trying to control the tool with my front hand, creating a great environment for a catch (and tossing the bowl across the garage). Since attending SWAT, I've finished two bowls, rough turned two more, and I roughed the outside of one tonight. No catches. No flying chunks of wood. Just lots of shavings and lots of fun!

What I suggest is doing a YouTube search for Jimmy Clewes. He's done a few well-videoed demos at the mid-Maryland Woodturners club. He will explain things along the way. I'll warn that his videos are long (like my post :) ). Also, check out Vimeo.com/woodturning for Stuart Batty's videos.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Hey everyone, I'm new to turning and am having some trouble with bowls. I use a Oneway Talon chuck with the wormscrew to rough out the blank then continue to turn the outside of the bowl and create a recess on the bottom. I then turn the bowl around and expand the jaws into the bottom recess so as to hollow the inside and finish the bowl. However, I continue to have the bowl come off the chuck when hollowing the inside. The recess on the bottom cracks and the bowl comes a flyin'. Am I making the recess to shallow or maybe too close to "perimeter/outside" of the bottom? Am I over-tightening the jaws in the recess? I also have a set of Super Jaws so I could use those as well. I am currently turning small bowls (6"x6"x3") on a Rikon mini lathe. Any tips, advice, and suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I am quickly falling in love with this woodworking rabbit hole.

Thank you,
Matt Krusen

Matt it is NOT the problem of using a recess that you have a problem turning your bowls, and using a tenon is not going to help you with that, learning HOW TO turn the bowls is what you need to do.

If you look at these pictures you will see a bit over a thousand bowls that I turned, pretty well everyone of them is turned with a recess, also many more bowls that are already sold were turned with a recess.

Your recess has to be cut clean and not too deep, if you use the standard Oneway jaws the recess should be square, it is what I use, on both my Talon and Stronghold chucks.

My recesses are a little deeper than the surrounding wood, that way you have more wood where the jaws push against.

My suggestion is that you find a woodturners club where you can learn how to turn a bowl before you get hurt.

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[robert baccus]

Matt, there are at lest 5 ways to hold a bowl safely. They all require thinking and good workmanship. Also use a method that matches the qualities of your wood-soft-wet-brittle-strong-easy to split ect.

[John Beaver]

Whether recess or tenon you need to make sure it's flat and square. Most times the problem comes from the corner not being sharp.

[hu lowery]

Matt,

Here is an hour and a half video on holding wood on a lathe. Using a chuck starts at about the one hour mark but I seem to remember the whole video being worth watching. Been a few years.

One thing that hasn't got much attention is your choice of woods. Some woods are much more inclined to crack and split so just spinning them can be enough to break them. If possible start with plain wood that isn't prone to splitting.

I have used tenons and recesses and don't have a real strong preference. Either will work fine cut properly, either one can cause trouble if they aren't cut properly. Another issue is overtightening the chuck. You may be damaging the wood before you even start trying to hollow.

I did about the same as you sounds like, I broke a lot of blanks off of my lathe when I started out. A combination of a very poor choice of wood and pretty much all the errors you can make chucking. I notice that you are breaking the wood off of the lathe hollowing which usually has you outside the primary line of fire but it is dangerous anytime you have the wood making an unplanned departure from the lathe. Do your homework and very possibly modify the way you are hollowing. A major catch can cause a trainwreck with a perfectly secured bowl.

Sometimes we have to back off and do some homework instead of plunging blindly ahead on the lathe like I did for awhile. I think you are finding out the same thing, therefore this thread. Take some time to regroup, read, and watch video. Wood turning is fairly safe going about it correctly, pretty dangerous when we blunder into it like I did.

Hu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXil-5dEeo

[Ron Rutter]

Matt. It is easy to over tighten the geared scroll chuck. You are applying a lot more pressure than you think!! I use both methods, BUT always use the tailstock as long as I can to support the work. As mentioned keep more meat outside the recess. If the comment about length of tenon was confusing it just means it should shoulder on the end of the jaws not the bottom. Ron.

[Reed Gray]

Matt, maybe this will help a bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KHkkws9lWA

I haven't been able to determine any advantage to either method of mounting a bowl blank. I went through a learning curve where a lot of pieces came off the lathe and chuck. Almost never now. Both tenon and recess work excellently, IF THEY ARE MADE CORRECTLY. I do have a bunch of other clips geared mostly to bowl turning.

robo hippy

[Brian Kent]

After watching the Reed Gray video, I have switched to recesses in most of my bowl turning. I always make sure there is plenty of wood on each side of the recess and that the wood is not cracked. I have a 2-1/8" Forstner bit, which perfectly fits the jaws of my chuck. I drill into what I want to be the open top of the bowl. Then I used the caliper to mark a 2-1/8" circle and form the recess on what will be the bottom of the bowl. I have made 60 bowls and plates this way over the summer with no failures. It is the fastest method for me.

[Reed Gray]

Russell,
This is an argument that I haven't been able to understand. The wood is under compression either way. It makes no difference to the wood if the metal is pushing out from the inside (recess) or in from the outside (tenon). Wood is compressed either way.

robo hippy

[Mark Greenbaum]

My limited experiences with recesses and jaws, you need more wood outside of the jaws to support the force of the jaws. Yes, it compresses the wood, but a normal tenon has beef . I've had one small bowl fly off and it was because the rim of what was going to be the foot of the bowl gave way - too much expansion on my part, and too much cutting force trying to pry it away. My 2 cents.

[robert baccus]

If you are using a chuck with dovetail lips, in or out, it helps to contour your recess or tenon to match.

[Lance Mirrer]

All good suggestions regarding either tenon or recess. Both will work, or both will fail, depending on how well they are done.

Second is the sharpness and presentation of tools, and the depth of cut (amount you are taking off).

With the tenon/or recess, they should be tailored to the shape of your chuck, usually straight or dovetail. If watching videos, note the depth & diameter of the recess to get a better grip. Be sure you achieve 90 degree hole for straight chuck. If your recess/tenon are cone shaped, tightening the chuck pushes the bowl away instead of closer.

Is the bowl coming off due to a catch? if so that will speak to the lighter cuts, sharper tools thought.

Last, for as long as possible leave the tailstock in place while hollowing. On small bowls, it's easier to hollow from center. But, if you're having issues, the tailstock can help hold until the bowl is lighter.

Let us know what works!!! if you're still having issues, be more specific when & why the bowls fly so we can be more direct.

Good Luck & keep having fun!

Leo, great advice, but why is the trailer only half full???

[David Delo]

Matt,

If you care to take the time to view the videos, Stuart Batty has some excellent videos with detailed explanations about tenons/recesses. There's 30+ videos listed, just scroll through the titles. Several of them have information you are asking about. Here's the link. https://vimeo.com/woodturning/videos/sort:alphabetical/format:thumbnail

[Michael Mills]

1+ on the link above to Stuart Batty's videos; extremely clear and well presented. I believe there are three on chucks, recesses, and tenons.

I typically use a recess but in your case I would use a tenon. My chucks are Nova and they suggest 1" of wood surrounding a recess.
With 50mm jaws your base would be 4" on a 6" bowl. It could be trimmed down on the final cleanup but that is a lot of cleanup; this assumes you would want a base of about 2" or 1/3 the diameter.
My guess with your problem is a combo of not enough wood surrounding the recess and over tightening.

[Eric Schatz]

Check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQl3WwLnpU

[Mike Goetzke]

When I started turning about a year ago I wanted to make a bowl and kept getting catches. Getting so frustrated I was thinking "this must not be for me." Then I thought many people turn bowls must be something basic. In my case it ended up that I had a terrible grind profile on my gouge. Helpful members here steered me in the right direction and the hobby has not only become enjoyable but addictive.

Good Luck,

Mike

[Russell Neyman]

Dick Raffin pretty much sums it up here.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/woodturning/video/a-turners-guide-to-chucks-and-jaws.aspx

[Russell Neyman]

Russell,
This is an argument that I haven't been able to understand. The wood is under compression either way. It makes no difference to the wood if the metal is pushing out from the inside (recess) or in from the outside (tenon). Wood is compressed either way.

robo hippy

Well, Reed, if the jaws are expanding, potentially pushing the grain apart, that wouldn't be compression, would it? Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics.

When I have a questionable piece in my lathe and I've shaped it, I sometimes put 5-6 layers of stretch wrap on the outside to hold it together when I turn it around to turn the inside. In my world, that process of holding the darn thing together is compressing the grains.

[Dave Mount]

To the OP: Lots of good information on tenons, but I would equally emphasis having sharp tools as a few posters mention. Failure of most any type of hold is because the force exerted by the tool exceeds the resistance of the weakest link in your hold. Sharper tools impart less resistance (all other things being equal). Catches are situations where sudden and extreme loads are applied, but just a heavy cut with a dull tool puts a lot of stress on a bowl, and the orientation of that stress is constantly shifting as the bowl's orientation shifts from side grain to end grain.

Regarding compression -- IMHO, the way to think about compression is whether the failure results from the wood crushing. When recess holds fail, it's not generally because wood was crushed, it's because of shearing or cracking along the lines of wood fibers. Yes, one could argue that the wood immediately in contact with the jaws is being compressed, but center of the bowl is in tension because the jaws are pulling it apart -- if you overtighten a chuck in a recess, what happens? Either the rim of the recess shears off, or the center of the bowl splits.

Best,

Dave

[robert baccus]

In the line of reducing catches sharp is very important. Also you might try a "bottom feeder" type gouge in the transition zone and the bottom. More better yeah.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

All good suggestions regarding either tenon or recess. Both will work, or both will fail, depending on how well they are done.

SNIP//SNIP

Good Luck & keep having fun!

Leo, great advice, but why is the trailer only half full???

Lance it was only half full because that was all the pre-turned bowls I had on hand, I don’t think I should have loaded all of then at once though,

as the axle that was on this cheap trailer got bend on this trip when I hit a bad spot in the road, had to have a new axle made and installed :o, I was very lucky with that in where it happened, as an expert trailer builder lived jus a couple of miles from where I was, when the axle gave up, took only two hours and I was on my way again with a new axle and two new rims and tires, ouch :rolleyes:

[David Cramer]

Great photos Leo...but I now feel inferior:):):):):):)...that is a lot of bowls!!! Well done!

David



Matt it is NOT the problem of using a recess that you have a problem turning your bowls, and using a tenon is not going to help you with that, learning HOW TO turn the bowls is what you need to do.

If you look at these pictures you will see a bit over a thousand bowls that I turned, pretty well everyone of them is turned with a recess, also many more bowls that are already sold were turned with a recess.

Your recess has to be cut clean and not too deep, if you use the standard Oneway jaws the recess should be square, it is what I use, on both my Talon and Stronghold chucks.

My recesses are a little deeper than the surrounding wood, that way you have more wood where the jaws push against.

My suggestion is that you find a woodturners club where you can learn how to turn a bowl before you get hurt.

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[Matt Krusen]

Lots of great advice here. Thanks gentlemen. Turned a bowl last night with a tenon and was quite successful. Used the tail stock for support as long as possible and took very light passes while hollowing. Hopefully I'll get time to flip it around tonight and turn off the tenon. Thanks again everyone. I appreciate all of the help!

[Jeff Walters]

There have been lots of great advise here. Lots of knowledge to share. Let me put in my 2 cents. I have turned bowls with tenons and mortises and have had my issues with both. I like to use mortises on my larger bowls and like others have said here, you need enough wood around it to keep it from breaking. I learned to use a mortise when I took a class with Ernie Conover which I highly recommend to anyone who can make it to his shop in Ohio. It was the first time I used it and had no issue. Then I went home and had three bowls in a row break. What I realized is, I was using too much force on the gouge and moving to fast, causing a catch and breaking the bowl right out of the chuck. I also find that it seems a mortise works best on green wood. At least in my experience. So if I can recommend anything is to keep the gouge sharp, don't force it is rather let it ride the bevel (when you do this you almost do not need your other arm. It just rids along beautifully. Don't go to fast, especially as you approach the center. It is turning slower then the edge of the bowl. Keep the cuts light. Don't try to hog of too much. The more you practice these steps, the more success you will have. When I started turning bowls, I was told by a friend in my club that you need to turn 100 bowls to get the muscle memory down and the feel really comfortable. I think there is some truth in that. Practice make perfect.

Jeff Walters

[robert baccus]

Check out bottom feeders--really just a unique grind on a 1/2" bowl gouge. Prevents catches in the transition and bottom zones. No catches is nice whether a new or old turner.