Open Handle Backsaws.

[Stewie Simpson]

Disston never carried an open-handled backsaw in its catalog, with the exception of the "Jackson" brand backsaw in the late 19th century and the "Davis" in the early 20th century. Jackson was a second-line brand with lesser quality in materials and finish than the Disston brand saws. It is shown with an open handle in the 1890 catalog. Later the Jackson saw was made with a closed handle only. Davis was of similar quality and featured an open handle in the 10 and 12 inch lengths.http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/openhandle.html

If we discount Disston's #68 & #70 Dovetail Saws, and the example listed above; its a little puzzling as to why Disston restricted their range of backsaws to closed handles only under their own brand. Provided the handle wood Disston were using was well seasoned; and the forward weight of the saw blade assembly is restricted within reason, weakness within its design makes little sense if you take into account the range of open handle backsaws being offered from u.k saw makers pre 1900.

I am currently working on some 12 inch open handle tenon saws; fitted with 0.020 saw plate; and thought it an interesting topic of discussion.

Stewie;

[Phil Mueller]

Look forward to seeing your build.
I suppose the answer to the open handle questione is lost in history. Could have been he felt it demonstrated "cutting corners" and thus the lower line status, just may not have liked it, thought the US market would view it as wimpy, ?
i suspect it was something other than its durability or performance.

[Pat Barry]

Stewie, what do you feel is the benefit of an open handle design as compared to the closed handle? Is it functional or purely artistic / appearance / style? Could it be that DIsston made saws that were more utilitarian as that better suited their typical customer need? I think we are drawn to the open handle design due to its elegance and style. I don't see any other advantage to it

[Tony Zaffuto]

Stewie, as I posted on the UK forum, Josh Clark (Hyperkitten) had an open handled backsaw for sale this past week. It was sold, but still shows near the bottom of his list. I have a Jackson open handled saw, that is the equal of any first line Disston. Oh, I also forgot, I have an open handled Disston backsaw, made for the MF 15-1/2 miter box (which I also have). Saw is stamped "Disston".

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Tony. Appreciate the feedback. Can you provide any additional information on your open handle backsaw marked Disston.

regards Stewie;

[Tony Zaffuto]

Thanks Tony. Appreciate the feedback. Can you provide any additional information on your open handle backsaw marked Disston.

regards Stewie;

Send me you email address and I'll send you a few pics.

[Jim Koepke]

Send me you email address and I'll send you a few pics.

Why not post them here so we can all see?

One of my Disston back saws has an open handle. Of course it is a replacement handle made by me.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Why not post them here so we can all see?

One of my Disston back saws has an open handle. Of course it is a replacement handle made by me.

jtk

I would post them here Jim, but I am admittedly deficient in brain power to figure out how to post pics! If someone wants to PM me their address, I'll send them to them and they can post!

T.

[Ron Bontz]

Just a thought. I have thought about this some in the past. It is my thoughts that an open handle is an inferior design. Only due to improper use. If one pushes below the area where the webbing of the hand rest, it puts an increased force ( rotational ) on the neck ( webbing ) area of the handle. Essentially creating a moment about the area. Increasing the possibility of shearing at that weakest point. And that area IS the weakest point. Much like a plane tote in reverse. Put too much force on the top of the plane tote instead of toward the base of the tote as you should, and the tote will shear near the base. The open handle saw design is no different, except in reverse. This is also why the grain needs to be oriented in the correct direction. Ultimately both examples come down to improper use of the tool. ( providing it was done correctly in the first place ) The closed handle, with or without the lambs tongue, helps prevents this. Also, as you know, the open handle is faster and cheaper to make much the same as a handle without a lamb's tongue vs one with the lamb's tongue. Basic physics and economics IMHO. Sorry no diagram showing the forces acting on the handle. I am currently at work.
Oh. I would like to see those pics as well.

[Tony Zaffuto]

OK, here's my first ever attempt to attach photo's!

320902

320901

Have to add that the saw went to Pete Taran, probably a decade ago, as he wanted to take a closer look at it. As I said, the saw was supplied with the small MF miter boxes (see Derek's thread today on his re-build of the MF 15-1/2.

[Stewie Simpson]

Its interesting to note the choice of timber predominantly used by early Saw Makers; Apple Wood (USA); European Beech (U.K); Both of these timbers rate high on seasonal wood movement. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/apple/
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/european-beech/

[Jim Koepke]

OK, here's my first ever attempt to attach photo's!

Great job, I knew you could do it!

Thanks.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Its interesting to note the choice of timber predominantly used by early Saw Makers; Apple Wood (USA); European Beech (U.K); Both of these timbers rate high on seasonal wood movement. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/apple/
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/european-beech/

Most likely back then the thought and study of seasonal movement wasn't a consideration.

Apple orchards were likely pretty old and trees being replaced. This may have led to a cheap supply of wood.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Here is a close up of the Disston open handle:

320903

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Tony for the photo's. Is the length of the saw plate around 10 inch. !

Stewie;

[Tony Zaffuto]

Thanks Tony for the photo's. Is the length of the saw plate around 10 inch. !

Stewie;

Saw plate is 12" Stewie.

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Tony. What's the depth below the hardback.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,Stewie,good point. While in modern catalogs woodworking benches are "traditionally made of beech" it was mainly just plentiful and cheap. If I had been willing to use a non traditional wood....I would have had a bench a lot sooner.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Thanks Tony. What's the depth below the hardback.

1-3/4" below, and a total of 2-1/2" from top.

[James Pallas]

I wonder if Disston was so experienced with our American way of pushing everything past its limits and knew that that backsaw would be shoved through the 2" wet oak with both hands and thrown into the back of a wagon along with other tools. I can remember back far enough that contractors took the back seat out of their car to use it as a pick up and the trunk was a tool box. Just a thought.
Jim

[Stewie Simpson]

1-3/4" below, and a total of 2-1/2" from top.

Hi Tony. Derek mentions in his thread that the original saw for the Miller's Falls #15 1/2 was 16" long with a depth of 2 1/2". You mention your saw was also made to suit the same mitre box. The 16" length stroke does make more sense.

Stewie;

[Tony Zaffuto]

Stewie,

I'll have to check the dimensions of my miter box to make sure it is the same as Derek's and not the smaller size. I'll post tomorrow.

T.

[Stewie Simpson]

Most likely back then the thought and study of seasonal movement wasn't a consideration.

Apple orchards were likely pretty old and trees being replaced. This may have led to a cheap supply of wood.

jtk

Hi Jim. Sounds like Beech was the primary handle wood used by Disston. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/sawhandle.html

Stewie;

[Pat Barry]

Just a thought. I have thought about this some in the past. It is my thoughts that an open handle is an inferior design. Only due to improper use. If one pushes below the area where the webbing of the hand rest, it puts an increased force ( rotational ) on the neck ( webbing ) area of the handle. Essentially creating a moment about the area. Increasing the possibility of shearing at that weakest point. And that area IS the weakest point. Much like a plane tote in reverse. Put too much force on the top of the plane tote instead of toward the base of the tote as you should, and the tote will shear near the base. The open handle saw design is no different, except in reverse. This is also why the grain needs to be oriented in the correct direction. Ultimately both examples come down to improper use of the tool. ( providing it was done correctly in the first place ) The closed handle, with or without the lambs tongue, helps prevents this. Also, as you know, the open handle is faster and cheaper to make much the same as a handle without a lamb's tongue vs one with the lamb's tongue. Basic physics and economics IMHO. Sorry no diagram showing the forces acting on the handle. I am currently at work.
Oh. I would like to see those pics as well.
Those are some of the same thoughts I have about the open handle design. It conveys a sense of intended delicacy - like the tool is meant for light duty work. Maybe there is a sense of accuracy as well. The ope handle is obviously meant for low force / leverage since it places the users wrist into a weak position also. Nothing wrong with any of this of course. Artisan tools don't have to follow the typical patterns of course.

[lowell holmes]

Well, there is a difference between using the LN dovetail saw and a 6 pt rip saw. The rip saw would be terrible with the LN handle, and vice-versa. I agree with Pat.

I personally like the open handle design where it is appropriate, however the saw handles I've made are all closed handles.

If anyone has made an open handle for a rip saw, please post a picture of it. I would like to see it. Hmmm. . .

Who knows what might crop up in this discussion.:)

[Tony Zaffuto]

More pics, showing my open handle Disston backsaw, with the small MF miter box. Box is 12" long (same as Derek's), and saw came with the box. The cherry waste pieces on the table are not original, but I do have the original ones in storage. The saw and box were in better than excellent shape when I got it, with whoever owned it, hardly ever using it. Not related to this miter box, it is one of at least 17 other miter boxes I have-all picked up for around $5 to no more than $25 through the years, some with, some without saws! Just couldn't let them sit idle at the various flea markets, etc. I've found them at.

320945

320946

320947

320948

[Brian Holcombe]

It would surprise me if anyone would plan around significant misuse by the user. If you break an open handle then you misused the saw.

Disstons were made in a time when most of the users would be professionals, maybe they had other reasons for the open handle to be more rare?

[Derek Cohen]

This is the original handle for the #15 1/2 mitre box:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Restoration/Millers%20Falls%2015%201-2%20Mitre%20Box%20and%20new%20saw%20build/_57-9_zps7wxc7x0a.jpg

This has the dimensions:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/MF%20115%20Restoration/MF-mitre-box1_zps9hr2opwk.jpg

Sorry Tony, but your saw is not close to the original.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

page 82;



https://books.google.com.au/books?id=17C60695ADUC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=open+handle+backsaws&source=bl&ots=c1PLa6pkf6&sig=iJQWgzQBiQH-R9w-e8INEj0losE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBjgKahUKEwjBnLKPmOXHAhVCLqYKHZ6nAX8#v =onepage&q=open%20handle%20backsaws&f=false

[Tony Zaffuto]

Now this has me very puzzled and may be the reason Pete Taran wanted to see the saw in person. The saw shows no evidence of the plate or back being shortened. My miter box is the same width as yours, Derek (was your saw marked "MF" or Disston?). I'm also puzzled that mine is open handled which is odd for a CC miter box. Might be another instance of Disston using what was on hand to fill orders?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

My mitre box is a Millers Falls, not a Disston. The #15 1/2 was made by MF. As far as I am aware, saws for MF were made by their own factory, not Disston (my MF74C has the original 28" MF saw). In any event, the 12" Disston saw you have is far too short.

In addition to the factory brochure I posted (above), here is a link to a post by Chris Schwarz, where he mentions that the 14" replacement saw he has is too short for his #16 1/2 (because that mitre box, too, used a 16" saw): http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/precision-gizmo-langdon-mitre-boxes

I would suggest that your saw is unmodified, but it was never intended for the #15 1/2 mitre box. It was a replacement for the original saw by a previous owner - unless you purchased the MF new ... nah, you're not that old! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

Hi Tony

My mitre box is a Millers Falls, not a Disston. The #15 1/2 was made by MF. As far as I am aware, saws for MF were made by their own factory, not Disston (my MF74C has the original 28" MF saw). In any event, the 12" Disston saw you have is far too short.

In addition to the factory brochure I posted (above), here is a link to a post by Chris Schwarz, where he mentions that the 14" replacement saw he has is too short for his #16 1/2 (because that mitre box, too, used a 16" saw): http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/precision-gizmo-langdon-mitre-boxes

I would suggest that your saw is unmodified, but it was never intended for the #15 1/2 mitre box. It was a replacement for the original saw by a previous owner - unless you purchased the MF new ... nah, you're not that old! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Miter box is MF and saw by Disston. Thread got started because of questions about Disston making open handled backsaws (catalog only listed Jackson and Davis). It was for this reason that maybe 6, 8 years ago, in an old tool list discussion, Pete Taran expressed an interest in having a closer look at my saw, and I mailed it out to him.

Saw works in the miter box, but is a tad short (center to center spacing of upright guides is 6"). For molding, such as a 3/4" saw is fine, but don't try anything wider than 1-1/2" to 1-3/4", else the saw will slip out of the rear guide.

T.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Jim. Sounds like Beech was the primary handle wood used by Disston. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/sawhandle.html

Stewie;

Interesting read thanks for the link.

jtk

[Jim Davis]

I don't think Millers Falls ever actually made saws. Like many other hardware makers and hardware dealers, they had Disston and others label their saws with the sellers' names.

Also agree with those above who note that a saw used as intended will never have a broken handle. Now dropping a saw on the handle is a different story.

[Stewie Simpson]

IMO. Within a well designed open handle, substantial and unbroken long grain will be seen running through the neck of the handle. As an example, from the following list of open handle shapes #4;#5;#6;#10;#12;#14;#16; & #18 from my perspective, represent excellent examples of this characteristic.

I have defined the neck of the handle as the area of bridge that seperates the cheek from the grip.

Stewie;

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/displayimage.php?album=7&pid=62#top_display_media

[Stewie Simpson]

The forward weight of the blade assembly should also be considered a critical decision within the total design of an open handle backsaw. Others may view differently, but I consider as a general rule the following targets should not be exceeded; length #12 inch; depth below the hardback #2 1/2 inch.

Stewie;

[Phill LeBlanc]

Why not post them here so we can all see?

One of my Disston back saws has an open handle. Of course it is a replacement handle made by me.

jtk

same here - but most folks don't know what it used to look like ...
353790

before:
353791

I prefer an open handle backsaw and this one cleaned up nice and fits my hand just fine.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

same here - but most folks don't know what it used to look like ...
353790

before:
353791

I prefer an open handle backsaw and this one cleaned up nice and fits my hand just fine.

Hey Phill,

You responded to a thread from 2015.... Of course, I had missed that thread when it came out.

Looks like you did a good job there.

So, did you have a saw with a broken handle, or did you choose to make it open because it fits your hand better?

I had a saw with a handle that pinched my hand and if I had opened the handle, it would have helped I think. No idea on strength or integrity.

Been thinking about making my own handle, but there is this little issue of time.

[Stanley Covington]

Hi Jim. Sounds like Beech was the primary handle wood used by Disston. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/sawhandle.html

Stewie;

Looking at my collection, Disston used Beech for lower-grade saws, and Apple for higher-grade saws. My Jackson brand backsaw is also beech.

Stan

From the Disstonian Institute:
Beech is the wood generally used, but apple is the favorite.

[george wilson]

I can't see that those delicate and thin lamb's tongues added much strength to the closed back handle style.

[Pete Taran]

A couple of random thoughts to add to the discussion. Disston used apple for 90+% of the saws it made. D8, D23, #12, #16, #120, #9 and their later counterparts, all apple. Disston backssaws all had apple as well. Disston used Beech for their #7 saw, which was the only saw in their main line to use beech. They did use it on Jacksons as well, and the Brown line, but even some secondary quality saws used apple. Why? I think you need to remember where Disston was set up. Philadelphia. I went to college in Carlisle which is west of there, and let me tell you, there are a lot of apple orchards in that part of PA. Adams and Bucks counties, orchards galore. So, it only made sense that Disston used what he could get. Apple.

The open handle backsaw thread is interesting. The saw that Tony has is not an anomaly or a user modified example. Disston did make open handled backsaws that were not part of the Jackson line. I have not seen them in any catalog, but I personally own enough of them that I know they were a regular factory item. Attached is a picture of two, the top one has the inch worn logo on the spine, the lower one not, both have Disston and Sons split nut medallions. I have quite a few others that are later, these were just handy and next to each other in the saw stockpile. The reason they made these is not hard to understand if you think about it. Disston started making their own crucible steel back around the time of the civil war. Up until then it was imported from England. As a result it was called "London Spring" because that was known in the marketplace and consumers knew it was good stuff. It should be no surprise then that Disston continued to mark their own steel "London Spring", even though it had no connection at all to London.

Open handled backsaws are uniquely British. Especially in the dovetail saw range. It is not surprising to me that Disston made an open handled saw to "reassure" tradition bound consumers that their saw was a chip off the old block. The fact that it wasn't in the catalog supports this idea. Publicly advertise your own closed handle saw, while secretly selling the open handled variety through the dealers to people that insisted on one. As the company grew, they faded out. Most of the saws I have with open handles are early, like the two shown. However, I have some that are like the one in question. I think they were pretty much gone by the turn of the century when Disston did not need training wheel advertising help by hanging on to tradition.

Hope this helps.

Pete

353877

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks for the input Pete. Very informative and very welcome.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Open handled backsaws are uniquely British. Especially in the dovetail saw range. It is not surprising to me that Disston made an open handled saw to "reassure" tradition bound consumers that their saw was a chip off the old block. The fact that it wasn't in the catalog supports this idea. Publicly advertise your own closed handle saw, while secretly selling the open handled variety through the dealers to people that insisted on one. As the company grew, they faded out. Most of the saws I have with open handles are early, like the two shown. However, I have some that are like the one in question. I think they were pretty much gone by the turn of the century when Disston did not need training wheel advertising help by hanging on to tradition.

Pete

353877

Pete:

It would seem that the closed handle would take more time/money to produce than the open handle. Is this consistent with your experience?

If it did take more time/money to produce, and some consumers preferred the more Britishy (sic) open handle, why do you think Disston promoted closed handles? Was it a quality issue? Was it a marketing strategy ("Sturdier and More Attractive")? What do you believe the public perception of the two types of saw handles was among consumers at the time?

Your insight would be appreciated.

Stan

[Pete Taran]

Stan,

Having made more than a few saw handles, it's definitely easier to make an open handed handle as opposed to a closed one. Your question is a good one, why did virtually ALL American makers then take on more work for themselves with the open handled design?

To understand this reason, you have to put yourself in the mindset at the time, which is definitely not the mindset of today. Today, whatever is cheapest is what wins, and if you don't like it, tough.

Back then, however, I think a few things were at play. First, and with Disston especially, I think the view was to come up with something uniquely American. Even though we were apart from the British for almost 100 years, there still was the prevailing wisdom that British stuff was the best. Many makers, including Disston, worked hard to overcome that perception. Disston even lobbied Congress to put the British Steel imports out of business and for a time had a monopoly on the High Carbon Tool Steel used in saws and plane irons. So, anything that could further the goal that American was the predominant industrial might in the world was favored over one that wasn't.

Second, I think Henry was a purist as well. Even though the closed handle tote was more time consuming to make, he judged it better, and as a result that's what they made. I think there were a lot of reasons for this, National Pride, Engineering, etc. Think of the skew backed handsaw blade. He judged it superior and America agreed! There are more Disston D8s floating around than any other model of vintage handsaw. The heavy straight bladed saws were a thing of the past. All this took placed around the same time, the tail end of Henry Disston's life. As the leader of the saw making world, his tastes impacted greatly the motives of other makers. Everyone wanted to be like Henry, so they copied what sold. As soon as a patent ran out, they were right their with their version.

All these ideas are theories. Disston never wrote anything down with respect to his motives, but you can look for clues as to the motivation. He was full of pride and even said on many occasions: "If you want a Saw, it is best to get one with a name on it that has a reputation. A man who was made a reputation for his goods knows its value, as well as its cost, and will maintain it." I adopted this philosophy when I started making backsaws under the Independence Tool banner. It's hard to go wrong with a well designed quality product to which there is no peer.

On the other hand, Disston was running a business. He wasn't so full of pride that if someone wanted X, he refused to make it. The catalogs always had a line in them about custom orders available on request. Disston wanted every saw making dollar the public could spare, and if that meant making stuff that some still didn't get the message on, then he would do it in hopes of convincing them on a future sale. As I mentioned earlier, at some point the Disston momentum took over and they stopped catering to British leaning tastes. If you wanted a backsaw, it was coming with a closed handle. :D

Hope this helps.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Thanks for the input Pete. Very informative and very welcome.

Stan

Pete: + 1 on what Stanley says - your input is always welcome to me and many others - thanks!

Dave B

[Joe Bailey]

Pete: + 1 on what Stanley says - your input is always welcome to me and many others - thanks!

Dave B

I'd like to second (third?) these sentiments.
These forums are at their best when those who can speak with authority join in.
Thanks Pete.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,

Having made more than a few saw handles, it's definitely easier to make an open handed handle as opposed to a closed one. Your question is a good one, why did virtually ALL American makers then take on more work for themselves with the open handled design?

To understand this reason, you have to put yourself in the mindset at the time, which is definitely not the mindset of today. Today, whatever is cheapest is what wins, and if you don't like it, tough.

Back then, however, I think a few things were at play. First, and with Disston especially, I think the view was to come up with something uniquely American. Even though we were apart from the British for almost 100 years, there still was the prevailing wisdom that British stuff was the best. Many makers, including Disston, worked hard to overcome that perception. Disston even lobbied Congress to put the British Steel imports out of business and for a time had a monopoly on the High Carbon Tool Steel used in saws and plane irons. So, anything that could further the goal that American was the predominant industrial might in the world was favored over one that wasn't.

Second, I think Henry was a purist as well. Even though the closed handle tote was more time consuming to make, he judged it better, and as a result that's what they made. I think there were a lot of reasons for this, National Pride, Engineering, etc. Think of the skew backed handsaw blade. He judged it superior and America agreed! There are more Disston D8s floating around than any other model of vintage handsaw. The heavy straight bladed saws were a thing of the past. All this took placed around the same time, the tail end of Henry Disston's life. As the leader of the saw making world, his tastes impacted greatly the motives of other makers. Everyone wanted to be like Henry, so they copied what sold. As soon as a patent ran out, they were right their with their version.

All these ideas are theories. Disston never wrote anything down with respect to his motives, but you can look for clues as to the motivation. He was full of pride and even said on many occasions: "If you want a Saw, it is best to get one with a name on it that has a reputation. A man who was made a reputation for his goods knows its value, as well as its cost, and will maintain it." I adopted this philosophy when I started making backsaws under the Independence Tool banner. It's hard to go wrong with a well designed quality product to which there is no peer.

On the other hand, Disston was running a business. He wasn't so full of pride that if someone wanted X, he refused to make it. The catalogs always had a line in them about custom orders available on request. Disston wanted every saw making dollar the public could spare, and if that meant making stuff that some still didn't get the message on, then he would do it in hopes of convincing them on a future sale. As I mentioned earlier, at some point the Disston momentum took over and they stopped catering to British leaning tastes. If you wanted a backsaw, it was coming with a closed handle. :D

Hope this helps.

Thank you Pete. The historical, psychological, and marketing insight is much appreciated. Henry was an amazing guy.

Regards,

Stan

[Stewie Simpson]

Stan,

Back then, however, I think a few things were at play. First, and with Disston especially, I think the view was to come up with something uniquely American. Even though we were apart from the British for almost 100 years, there still was the prevailing wisdom that British stuff was the best. Many makers, including Disston, worked hard to overcome that perception. Disston even lobbied Congress to put the British Steel imports out of business and for a time had a monopoly on the High Carbon Tool Steel used in saws and plane irons. So, anything that could further the goal that American was the predominant industrial might in the world was favored over one that wasn't.

Hope this helps.

Who's interests was Henry Disston focused on. Was it aligned with other competing American Saw Makers who were still reliant on using the now more expensive British Steel. You be the judge.


The story of handsaws in the United States mirrors the technical and political development of steel. Sheffield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield), England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England), was the center of handsaw production during the 18th century and through most of the 19th century because of its fine steel and skilled craftsmen. But England's political and economic lock on steel making in the colonies held American sawmakers at bay until well after the Revolutionary War. American steel producers could not compete until import tariffs leveled the playing field in 1861.

This was the environment in which young Henry Disston (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Disston) (1819–1878) began his career as an American sawmaker in Philadelphia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia). He had immigrated from England in 1833 and started making saws and squares in 1840. In 1850, he founded the company that would become the largest sawmaker in the world: the Keystone Saw Works.

Some five years later, Disston built a furnace—perhaps the first melting plant for steel in America—and began producing the first crucible saw steel ever made in the United States. While his competitors were buying good steel from Britain, he was making his own, to his own specification, for his own needs. Disston subsequently constructed a special rolling mill exclusively for saw blades.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disston_Saw_Works


The following companies were acquired by Disston over the years:

Johnson & Conaway 1857
P. Fraley & Co. 1859
John H. Gunniss 1861
William Cresson 1862
Bringhurst & Verree 1866
James Turner 1867
Aaron Nichols Unknown
Hill & Davenport 1868
Wm. & Harvey Rowland 1870
Waterhouse Saw Co. 1874
Richardson Bros. 1890
Harvey W. Peace Co. 1890
Pennsylvania Saw Co. 1892
Wheeler, Madden & Clemson 1893
Woodrough & McParlin 1893
Woodrough & Clemson 1893
Baldridge & Hogan Saw Co. 1901
American Saw Co. 1901

https://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioDisston.htm

[Stanley Covington]

Who's interests was Henry Disston focused on. Was it aligned with other competing American Saw Makers who were still reliant on using the now more expensive British Steel. You be the judge.


Pray tell, why are Henry's motivations 160 years ago relevant to this discussion? Do we imagine that his interests were focused on anything but his own business plans? Is "alignment" with the competition required to make a good saw handle?

Please enlighten us.

[Pete Taran]

My thoughts exactly Stan. Perhaps Stewie's feelings are hurt that even Australia did not escape the tentacles of the Disston Empire. In 1914 Disston opened a branch house in Sydney. I'm not familiar with any Domestic Australian Saw Makers his equal.
Perhaps Stewie can enlighten us on that too. :D

[Stewie Simpson]

Stanley; I was also the originator of this thread back in 09/06/2015. Do I have a point of view. Yes. Is it of equal value to that of others. I would hope so. Was Henry Disston's contributions to the history of Saw Making of immense value. You bet ya. From a historical perspective, do I have concerns about those smaller well respected American Saw Makers that Disston forced out of the market as a result of Henry's moves to enforce severe import tariffs on British made Steel. Absolutely. Was Henry more interested in promoted American made Steel, or was he more focused on taking a competitive advantage over that of rival saw makers. We can only surmise. What we do know from evaluating the list of rival Saw Makers that were taken over by Disston at time after those import tariffs were enforced, there was a direct impact.

regards Stewie;

The following companies were acquired by Disston over the years:

Johnson & Conaway 1857
P. Fraley & Co. 1859
John H. Gunniss 1861
William Cresson 1862
Bringhurst & Verree 1866
James Turner 1867
Aaron Nichols Unknown
Hill & Davenport 1868
Wm. & Harvey Rowland 1870
Waterhouse Saw Co. 1874
Richardson Bros. 1890
Harvey W. Peace Co. 1890
Pennsylvania Saw Co. 1892
Wheeler, Madden & Clemson 1893
Woodrough & McParlin 1893
Woodrough & Clemson 1893
Baldridge & Hogan Saw Co. 1901
American Saw Co. 1901

[Stewie Simpson]

My thoughts exactly Stan. Perhaps Stewie's feelings are hurt that even Australia did not escape the tentacles of the Disston Empire. In 1914 Disston opened a branch house in Sydney. I'm not familiar with any Domestic Australian Saw Makers his equal.
Perhaps Stewie can enlighten us on that too. :D

Pete; if you want to restrict this discussion to not questioning the views of Stanley and yourself, you may want to give us some forward warning.

regards Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Stewart, I think you need to lighten up. It was a joke.

Having said that, it seems from your post you are somehow insinuating that Disston was some sort of ultra shrewd businessman that only cared about making a buck. It's true he acquired many, many companies, but to say that was due to him making his own steel is an immense oversimplification. That certainly didn't hurt, but having handled many of the saws of his competitors, I can say that it was because his saws were just that much better. Disston was the Steve Jobs of his era. He held more patents and generated more innovations than any other. The more the competition tried to compete, the more they struggled until he bought them out. In the end, he (more correctly his children) were at the top of the heap.

There is a fantastic book written called "A place to live and work" by Harry Silcox which talks about the many firsts that Disston took with respect to the community he created, Tacony, PA. It was the first factory town in which the value proposition was simple, work hard for me and I'll give you a good wage and a nice place to live. The company paid for schools, recreation, parks and even a company owned water and sewer supply. It was a model community and one that thrived. It was all due to his sense of community shouldered on the back of his keen business sense and accomplishment.

[Mike Allen1010]

Well, there is a difference between using the LN dovetail saw and a 6 pt rip saw. The rip saw would be terrible with the LN handle, and vice-versa. I agree with Pat.

I personally like the open handle design where it is appropriate, however the saw handles I've made are all closed handles.

If anyone has made an open handle for a rip saw, please post a picture of it. I would like to see it. Hmmm. . .

Who knows what might crop up in this discussion.:)


Here's a pair of shop made dovetail saws, 12" and 14" long. I prefer saw plates that are little longer and thinner than traditional. Lowell, I'm guessing you referring to larger rip saws, but thought I'd throw these in to contribute to the thread.

Stewie I'm really looking forward to seeing your next saw. .020" is my preferred thickness for fine joinery saws.


I like open handled totes as long as I can practically get away with them, which is typically in smaller crosscut and dovetail saws. For larger rip configured saws for sawing tenon cheeks IMHO thicker plates and closed totes stand up better to the greater heat/friction and greater pressure in these sawing tasks.


Best, Mike


354055

[Stewie Simpson]

Mike; you need to keep in mind this thread dates back to 09/06/2015. Since then, I have completed another
12 backsaws, 10 traditional wedge abutment planes, 12 metal plane refurbishments, and 2 wooden bench plane refurbishments. And at the moment I am focused on rebuilding an early curved frame ornamental display cabinet.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/display%20cabinet%20rebuild/_DSC0056_zpscix4yhrt.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/display%20cabinet%20rebuild/_DSC0056_zpscix4yhrt.jpg.html)

Its about time I eased back on the work shop activities and enjoyed some of the Aussie Summer sunshine.

Excellent finish on your 2 backsaw handles Mike.

regards Stewie;

[Phil Mueller]

Stewie, in between enjoying the sunshine, I do hope you will post progress photos of the curved display case.

[Stewie Simpson]

Phil; it wont be on this forum.

Stewie;

[Chris Hachet]

Hey Phill,

You responded to a thread from 2015.... Of course, I had missed that thread when it came out.

Looks like you did a good job there.

So, did you have a saw with a broken handle, or did you choose to make it open because it fits your hand better?

I had a saw with a handle that pinched my hand and if I had opened the handle, it would have helped I think. No idea on strength or integrity.

Been thinking about making my own handle, but there is this little issue of time. I have been wanting to try some saw handles and have some ideas.
Let me know when you want to approach this...

[Chris Hachet]

Here's a pair of shop made dovetail saws, 12" and 14" long. I prefer saw plates that are little longer and thinner than traditional. Lowell, I'm guessing you referring to larger rip saws, but thought I'd throw these in to contribute to the thread.

Stewie I'm really looking forward to seeing your next saw. .020" is my preferred thickness for fine joinery saws.


I like open handled totes as long as I can practically get away with them, which is typically in smaller crosscut and dovetail saws. For larger rip configured saws for sawing tenon cheeks IMHO thicker plates and closed totes stand up better to the greater heat/friction and greater pressure in these sawing tasks.


Best, Mike


354055Nice saws, I would agree with the open handled assessment of smaller saws.

[Mike Allen1010]

Mike; you need to keep in mind this thread dates back to 09/06/2015. Since then, I have completed another
12 backsaws, 10 traditional wedge abutment planes, 12 metal plane refurbishments, and 2 wooden bench plane refurbishments. And at the moment I am focused on rebuilding an early curved frame ornamental display cabinet.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/display%20cabinet%20rebuild/_DSC0056_zpscix4yhrt.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/display%20cabinet%20rebuild/_DSC0056_zpscix4yhrt.jpg.html)


regards Stewie;

Sorry Stewie I missed the date on the thread. I hope you will keep posting here on SMC. I always enjoy your comments and appreciate your contributions.


Enjoy the Aussie summer sunshine!


Mike

[Stewie Simpson]

Mike; its not those at membership level I have concerns with on this forum.

Stewie;

[Jim Koepke]

Mike; its not those at membership level I have concerns with on this forum.

Stewie;

Maybe this was meant for a different Jim?

I have no idea to what this is relative.

jtk