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View Full Version : New to Laser Engravers - Classes/Recommendations?



Megan Farwell
09-05-2015, 9:48 PM
Hi all!

My name is Megan, I'm very new to the engraving world but trying to learn all that I can. I've been reading threads for a few weeks, finally registered.

My husband and I are considering starting small hobby engraving business. Right now, we are focusing mostly on doing smaller personalized gifts (cutting boards, picture frames, keepsake boxes). Primary material would be wood, and I think a 12x24 table would be sufficient for now. We are thinking it would be run out of our garage.

My main question, is it even feasible to buy a machine for $5k? Hopefully US made, but I would consider a Chinese machine with US support. At this time, that is pretty much the max we can invest.

Also, are there any types of classes/books/anything we can do to learn more about these machines other than just reading these forums, haha? We don't have any connections within the business.

Thanks for your time!

Jack Clague
09-05-2015, 9:56 PM
Hi Megan I'm in a very similar scenario to you although my budget is a little higher. Have you seen my thread?

A good guide for a general overview is the engravers journal 2015 buyers guide. Its free to download from their site.

Bert Kemp
09-06-2015, 7:31 AM
Hi Megan,Welcome to the creek,
To be honest at a 5K budget your not going to get an American made machine. Your going to have to go with a Chinese made machine. Rabbit Laser USA, Boss Laser, and Automation technologies are all U.S. based companies that sell imported Chinese machines within your budget.I have a Rabbit RL6040-60 watt which I'm very happy with both the machine and support. Other members have Boss and Auto tech machines and they say their happy too.Please do your research, don't think you can buy a 1000 dollar or even a 3k laser on ebay and start a home business, it will just be a big headache. Use the search function here at smc every machine has been discussed, the good the bad and the ugly of all them LOL and ask questions here. Good luck let us know how your doing and what you end up with.;)

Jerome Stanek
09-06-2015, 10:03 AM
At one time rabbit listed used equipment on their site. Ray did not have the machine but would put you in touch with the person who did.

Glen Monaghan
09-06-2015, 10:38 AM
Hi Megan,

As others have said, $5k is not going to buy a (new) US made laser but that doesn't mean you are forced into getting a Chinese machine. The alternative is to find a used US made machine in good condition that is within your price range. Starting out, especially if you don't have pretty good technical background and skills, a Chinese machine could be a big mistake because documentation sucks, company support is tenuous at best, after sales service often is non-existent, the software is generally harder to understand and use, you will be on your own if you need repairs, and you will have to deal every day with the often-times pains of a glass tube (check the threads about unknowingly over driving and ruining glass tubes, electrical arcs on the high voltage lines, poor engraving performance, etc.) and a water-cooled system (there have been a number of threads here about freezing, algae, antifreeze, bubbles, et al).

You may have the technical skills to go with a Chinese machine but you probably want to USE the machine, not spend a lot of time tinkering or fighting with it, so spend the time to locate a good used US-made laser. Your biggest concern buying a used US laser will be the tube because their metal tubes are much more costly to replace than Chinese glass tubes. However, once they get past their "infant mortality" stage, metal tubes tend to last a long time and are much more robust than glass tubes (they throttle right down for fine engraving/cutting, they cut at 100% power with no fear of over driving them, arcing, etc.).

Used US-made lasers are listed occasionally in Sawmill Creek's classified forum, so check out that source for a good, clean, well-maintained machine.

Matt McCoy
09-06-2015, 2:35 PM
With a $5K budget, I would go Chinese for cutting power. It's very useful to be able to make interesting shapes out of a variety of material.

Here's a start:

Boss Laser
Full Spectrum Laser
Rabbit Laser USA
Lightobject
Automation Technology Inc.

Glen Monaghan
09-06-2015, 2:56 PM
Bert, you are welcome to disagree, and we can agree on that disagreement, but that doesn't make either point of view right for everyone. Clearly, we both made different decisions in our individual purchases and are vested in those choices, but newcomers do tend to have a decidedly harder time dealing with Chinese lasers than Western models. Direct imported Chinese machines do have poor documentation and poor technical support. The US resellers that you mentioned may have cleaned up and improved the documentation, but what I've seen still doesn't match the US competition. From what I understand, some US resellers do fix or change out some Chinese parts, but they can only do so much given the Chinese machines' cheaper materials and build (note the frequent posts about bad welds, out of alignment machines, weird electrical connections and problems, faulty connections and grounding, etc. on Chinese machines, something you virtually never see for Western machines). Chinese machines cost lest because they make all the design/construction decisions to minimize cost, not quality.

Yes, the Epilog I am selling is an older model, but many people (there are quite a few here on SMC) have that same model and have been running them day in and day out for a decade or more with precious little downtime or repair, never worrying about accidentally freezing water coolant, needing algae control, keeping the machine cool enough, fixing/preventing high voltage arcs, and a myriad of other annoying problems unique to the built-to-a-low-price Chinese designs. My 12 year old machine is in excellent mechanical condition and has required only a new tube and a motor in all those years. That current tube is 6 years old and still going strong (measured 34W). It's past infant-mortality stage and hasn't had any noticeable decline. Really, it's impossible to say how long it will last but it almost certainly won't die from degassing within the couple of years' life span of a new glass tube. The build quality of a Western machine makes its age significantly less of a concern than it is for a Chinese machine.

The OP says she wants an engraver, not a cutter, so a Western machine is a clear win because they engrave faster and with better power control than Chinese lasers, yet have no down side when cutting.

When buying a laser on a $5k budget, you have to decide how you want to gamble... You can buy a new machine but only one that is cheaply made, or you can buy a quality machine but only one that is used. There are risks either way. If you are the type to buy your tools and equipment at Harbor Freight, or if you buy inexpensive Asian cars, and you don't mind the risks and problems of products built to a low cost and have the time and ability to work through documentation and problems without manufacturer support, then you'll likely go the cheap Chinese laser route. Heck, even if you don't buy inexpensive Asian cars, but you always buy a new car for fear that any used car is a money pit, then you'll likely go the cheap Chinese laser route. In contrast, if you are the type to hang on to your equipment for a long, long time, and you can assure yourself that you aren't buying someone else's abused or worn-out "problem child," then buying a quality, used Western machine is a good bet. You advocate the inexpensively built Chinese laser, but I see more advantages in obtaining a similar priced, good used Western laser over a similarly spec'd new Chinese laser. Neither of us is unconditionally right, we just have different criteria and outlooks.

Glen Monaghan
09-06-2015, 2:58 PM
With a $5K budget, I would go Chinese for cutting power.

FWIW, OP indicates she primarily wants to engrave, not cut, so this advice is off target.

Ross Moshinsky
09-06-2015, 3:06 PM
1. For that type of business a used Western Machine is often a good choice.
2. I think you should seriously consider outsourcing the work to a local engraver. If you do all the artwork setup and make their life easy, it might be a good way to start out your business. If it won't work for you, then think about buying a machine.
3. Chinese machines have a lot of benefits, but if your business fails, which statistically is highly probable, then you're going to take a huge hit on resale vs a Western machine.
4. I don't think you need to take classes for laser engraving. Artwork setup is the most important part of engraving. Then you need to master actually placing the artwork on your item so it's straight/centered/ect. This can be very easy or tricky. On gift items, it can be tricky because they often lack consistency. Last thing to worry about is getting your settings right. Assuming the laser is functioning properly, it doesn't take much skill to dial in settings. The first time you do it, it will take 20 tries. The second time, 15. The next, 10. After that, you'll build a database either in your head or in the computer, and you'll get the settings down in a few tries. For example, I "know" most coated metal needs about 15W to engrave. Are there exceptions? Sure. But if I sat down at any laser, my first try would be 15W and full speed. I'd be surprised if that didn't get me close.

Bert Kemp
09-06-2015, 3:14 PM
Glenn are you speaking from experience? have you seen and operated a new rabbit or boss laser. I've seen several epilogs and universal lasers up close so I know the difference's from a personal point of view. I'd buy another US Based import in a heart beat. There built solid, they have good documentation at least rabbit does and from what I read the other 2 do also. I can call anytime I need support and parts if I should need them are a day away usps first class. My laser engraves just fine, maybe not as fast as an epilog but like she said its a hobby in the garage not a business that depends on speed.


FWIW, OP indicates she primarily wants to engrave, not cut, so this advice is off target.

Ron Gosnell
09-06-2015, 4:05 PM
she said its a hobby in the garage not a business that depends on speed.

100% agree with a budget of 5k Chinese is the way to go.
Mine does an excellent job although it is slower on the engraving end.

Just stay away from the budget stuff listed on ebay. That's where the bad rap on Chinese machines really starts.

Gozzie

Bill George
09-06-2015, 4:30 PM
I started with a low cost Chinese machine purchased from an Advertiser but I had a lot of prior CNC and electrical electronics experience. A little searching on here will reveal the pitfalls of just about any eBay purchase. I was lucky enough to find a dealer rebuild ULS 50 - (60 measured output) watt machine that I had to do some clean up on but it is far superior to my Chinese model. Epilog and Trotec seem to be the desired machines on here but my ULS I would replace in a minute with a new one of the same brand.
Remember the air cooled metal tubes can be ran at 100% power and the RF tubes can also vary the frequency for better cutting. At last check a recharge for my ULS metal tube was $1250 and that was a fixed rate factory refurb.

Jerome Stanek
09-06-2015, 4:54 PM
1.
3. Chinese machines have a lot of benefits, but if your business fails, which statistically is highly probable, then you're going to take a huge hit on resale vs a Western machine.
settings. The first time you do it, it will take 20 tries. The second time, 15. The next, 10. After that, you'll build a database either in your head or in the computer, and you'll get the settings down in a few tries. For example, I "know" most coated metal needs about 15W to engrave. Are there exceptions? Sure. But if I sat down at any laser, my first try would be 15W and full speed. I'd be surprised if that didn't get me close.

How much of a hit are you talking On a $5000 to $7000 laser. Even half that price is less than taking a third off a $20000 laser.

Matt McCoy
09-06-2015, 5:27 PM
FWIW, OP indicates she primarily wants to engrave, not cut, so this advice is off target.

It's not so much advice as it is what I would do with $5,000, as I mentioned. The benefit of a decent-sized bed and something like a 60W-80W tube for a side-hustle business might be a good way to go, IMHO.

Glen Monaghan
09-06-2015, 7:37 PM
Yep. The nub of the matter is that we're talking about individual preferences. You and Bert would spend the $5000 for a new Chinese machine, I would (did) spend money to buy another, upgraded (used, new to me) Epilog.

Some people will only buy new cars, convinced that all used cars are someone's cast-off problems and an impending money pit. When they start getting repair bills, they trade it in and start over, getting what ever trade-in a dealer will give them for the old car and paying new prices for a replacement. Me, I've only owned four cars in 45 years and three were pre-owned; my experience was that the one new car cost me three times as much to buy as any of the used cars and twice as much per annum for repairs over the time I had it, which was the shortest time I owned any of the cars. My current car, a 300z, is a '94 that I bought when it was two years old for almost half the original new price, and the most expensive thing I've had to do was replace a dead fuel injector.

In general I'd much rather shop for a quality pre-owned car or tool for a bargain price than drop the same amount of money for a cheap new model. Granted, I have bought a couple of things from Harbor Freight, but only when they were tools for which I didn't have much future need and they cost about the same as it would cost me to rent a quality tool for the job at hand, with the idea that I could get it replaced if it died a young death while completing the job, I wouldn't really lose anything if the tool lasted long enough but was essentially trashed by the time I was done with the job, and I'd come out ahead if the tool lasted longer than the current job. Well, in one case the tool let me get the job done but was trashed, and in the other case the tool just wasn't up to the job and, after trying to work around the tool's problems for far too long, I wound up taking it back and doing the rental anyway. All told, using a quality tool is much nicer than using a cheap tool, even for a hobby, and it'll generally last a lot longer as well.

I don't think there's much more to say and neither side is going to change position, or needs to! It's all about your personal preferences and cases have been made for both sides.

Dave Sheldrake
09-06-2015, 8:05 PM
My husband and I are considering starting small hobby engraving business. Right now, we are focusing mostly on doing smaller personalized gifts (cutting boards, picture frames, keepsake boxes). Primary material would be wood, and I think a 12x24 table would be sufficient for now. We are thinking it would be run out of our garage.

I've had Chinese, Japanese and Western made lasers (that in some cases are made in China no matter what the sellers claim)

My advice for what it's worth?

Take a good look at the market before investing in machines...the machine cost itself can pale into pocket change by the time you add in all the other requirements. 9 out of 10 businesses go tilt these days and you will be entering a saturated market that is changing on a daily basis (for engraving Galvo's are becoming hot property) not forgetting you will also be competing with the rotary and drag machines to some extent.

A simple example....household insurance....if you are running a business from your home address that will invalidate most insurance policies that home owners have. removal of smokes and contaminants , liability in case anything you work on causes harm etc etc

Sadly these days it's not a case of having just a good machine, you need all the other junk that comes with it.

Ross Moshinsky
09-06-2015, 8:09 PM
How much of a hit are you talking On a $5000 to $7000 laser. Even half that price is less than taking a third off a $20000 laser.

I would give someone 25 cents on the dollar for a used Chinese laser. A 1-2 year old used Western laser shouldn't depreciate much more than $2000-3000 (most of the price of a new tube, mirror, and lens). If you grab a used Western laser on eBay or Craigslist, you may not see any depreciation.

There is a reason why I depreciate Chinese lasers so much. I think you're buying people's problems more often than not. I'd expect to buy a new tube, PS, mirrors, and lens immediately. I'd also expect to spend at minimum 3-4 hours fixing various issues with the machine that previous owner either caused or didn't even know existed.

Clark Pace
09-06-2015, 8:17 PM
Over the years I have owned 3 chinese laser and 2 USA (ULS) Machines.

Everyone has an opinion and so here is mine.

In the past few years Chinese lasers have become more reliable and faster.


I run a small Laser business myself and am very happy with my Chinese laser. I do mostly cutting, but engraving is a part of it. Chinese lasers are slower, at engraving, but if you are engraving smaller pieces or lower volumes at first at a Chinese laser is not a bad way to go as long as you have US support.

USA machines are great buy may not be the way to get into a full laser engraving business. You could start with a Chinese (USA supported) machine, and if you find you are getting really busy then spend the extra 25k+ for a USA machine.

I have a Redsail X700 and have had minimal problems. I purchased direct and spend $3300 after shipping. But if you need USA support, and it sounds like you do get the US support. By Redsail laser has been almost rock solid, and works well. I have had comments that my laser cuts are better then my competition. Like I said the chinese brand lasers have gotten much better.

Now I will say this. I would still get a USA laser over a Chinese laser if had $$$$$$(rich uncle died, leaves $$$, or won the lottery :).


But I'm a happy with my purchase. I would not even have a laser at all this time around if it were not for imports.

Rory Shepherd
09-28-2015, 10:25 AM
I agree with Clark. If you have the money to spend then go with the top-tier US brands. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the means to spend that much. If money is the deciding factor, I would go for a Chinese (US supported) machine. Most of these companies still provide reliable machines with great support.

Kev Williams
09-28-2015, 11:27 AM
Strictly speaking wood---

I've mentioned this before but here goes again: In a side by side test, with both machines running the same actual raster speed and resolution settings, and same piece of wood, my 80 watt Chinese Triumph engraved a 3/16" deep text test (about 3/4" tall and 6" long) in one pass, my 40 watt LS900 took 3 passes to get that deep. Less aggressive depths and my LS900 will gain some ground. It's only quicker at wood engraving when reaching 'superficial' depths.

Have no clue if a 40w Chinese will equal or beat a 40w western, or if an 80w western would beat my 80w Triumph. But one fact remains- if ever I need to engrave a piece of wood, it goes in my Triumph... and I could buy 5 more of these and still spend less than I would on one 80 watt western machine.

Again--that's strictly speaking wood----

Now, if you need to laser etch part numbers and 'go-nogo' marks on 14" long x .08" diameter stainless mandrels, you're going to need a western machine! :)
I get these as small as .048" diameter. While I love how the Triumph does wood, it simply won't do this, at least within the tolerances I have to keep...

322349322350

The machine you NEED strictly depends on what you plan to do with it.

I've been looking to buy another machine lately, and I have specific needs for it (like above) so a Chinese won't do.
I can tell you this- finding a decent used western machine for 5 grand is pretty much going to be a lucky 'yard sale' find.

That all said, my advice for starting a new 'mostly wood' engraving business, go with a Chinese machine. Whether you want to pay the premium for a US-sold unit and customer service is up to you...

Robert Tepper
09-29-2015, 11:51 PM
A 5K down payment on a 25K machine could be easily achieved if you have a 700 credit score or better. Banks are loaning money at less than 5%.

I recommend that you purchase the most powerful machine with the largest table that seems practical. No less than 80 watts and a table of 18 x 24" or similar. Good marketing and good salesmanship will have your laser running more than enough hours, Work will not find you, it is out there and needs to be pursued. Best of luck on your decision and purchase.

Robert

Martin Boekers
09-30-2015, 11:25 AM
Strictly speaking wood---

I've mentioned this before but here goes again: In a side by side test, with both machines running the same actual raster speed and resolution settings, and same piece of wood, my 80 watt Chinese Triumph engraved a 3/16" deep text test (about 3/4" tall and 6" long) in one pass, my 40 watt LS900 took 3 passes to get that deep. Less aggressive depths and my LS900 will gain some ground. It's only quicker at wood engraving when reaching 'superficial' depths.





322349322350

...


Ok help me on this, you are comparing a 40 watt laser to an 80 watt laser.... if so that doesn't surprise me of the difference in the number of passes.

I have a question about engraving wood myself which I'll post on it's own thread so it doesn't hijack this one...

Kev Williams
09-30-2015, 1:32 PM
Ok help me on this, you are comparing a 40 watt laser to an 80 watt laser.... if so that doesn't surprise me of the difference in the number of passes..

Has nothing to do with passes or power, but everything to do with high detail and accuracy...


I bought my Triumph expressly to do stainless via Cermark, and hopefully faster. But I don't like the results I get-- not to do with detail or accuracy, but the "mark" in general. I have yet to be able to figure out power and speed settings that will BOTH (a) turn Cermark nice & black, AND (b) leave a reasonably 'permanent' mark. Meaning: If I get a nice black mark, I can scrape it off with my fingernail. And a mark I CAN'T scrape off, isn't anywhere close to black. It's gray. And if I REALLY hit it hard, I can turn it bronze. The gray and bronze looks very nice, and I do put those types of marks on things like SS valve 'reference' tags, where a dark black mark isn't so necessary as a permanent one. And those gray markings are PERMANENT. But, big 24x30" stainless steel operator panels that I've sold many of in the past with beautiful BLACK etching, I can't sell them with gray etching. While the SS results have been a bit disappointing, all other results I've gotten have been great, well beyond my expectations.

However- as to detail and accuracy-- The lettering size on those mandrels in the pics are around .040" tall. I can do that with the Triumph, but not nearly as crisp. And the line on the other side, I'm not so sure the Triumph can hold the tolerance. And finally, there's not even a western machine that I know of designed to engrave a .045" diameter 'cylinder'. Not even mine, which has a .125" dia. mininum. I just figured out a work-around. The most important part of the job in doing these is the cylinder attachment. Mine is a chuck-style, and it's the same one Gravograph sells for all of their CNC rotary tool machines. Extremely beefy, completely adjustable, many holder accessories, and very accurate. I've never seen a better western-machine rotary, and I don't believe even close to such a rotary device exists for a Chinese machine...

Martin Boekers
09-30-2015, 2:08 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought it was about power and passes... I'm having some differences with the new Epilog 120 watt Fusion I just bought compared to my 75 watt ones.
I'm thinking it may be the focal length of the lens, new one is 3" and the old are 2", I believe according to Epilog the New lens is a higher grade. I just want to get comparable results
from both lasers. I understand that some jobs are pretty challenging as I push my expectations to the limits sometimes myself. ;)

I have never had any luck with Cermark so I don't offer it. I could never reach a consistent level with it.


Good luck with your project!