As not to hijack another thread, "moving machinery" [Archive]

Patrick Walsh

09-04-2015, 11:10 PM

I was reading another thread and it got me to thinking about a situation of my own.

I will be taking delivery of a AD941 this friday the 11th.

I have a unique situation with a fenced yard will to narrow a gate opening for the machine to fit through. The yard is also on a incline and it worries me to use a pallet jack to move the machine.

My solution has been hiring a crane to lift the machine off the pallet over my fence and onto a platformoutside my basement door. Once here i need to gently slide it down a ramp 30" and into my shop where i have a pallet jack waiting to move it into final place.

In another thread it was suggested that just moving a machine on casters could mess with its tolerances. My plan is to strap the machine from underneath the base not touching the tables at all.

So what do people think, anyone ever lifted a jointer with straps. I hear people suggest they have used a engine lift all the time. I cant see how that is any different.

Roy Harding

09-05-2015, 12:28 AM

The other thread you mention is concerned with tolerances which may be affected AFTER the initial dialing in, caused by the constant movement of the machinery. In your case, you're concerned with the initial move, after which your machine will be in place, and can be dialed in. Two different situations.

As far as using straps goes, check with the manufacturer - they'll be able to recommend attachment points for your straps (or recommend against the idea entirely).

Chris Parks

09-05-2015, 12:52 AM

My Hammer A3-31 sits on a flat platform with casters so it can be moved around. I have found no reason to think the machine is any less accurate that the day I got it. Fair enough if the floor is very rough and the platform flexible then it is most probably a bad idea. Those saying that it will cause the world to end would not want to have been around when I unloaded mine, they would have had a heart attack.

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 6:02 AM

Manufacturer will not say much. In conversation i have been very upfront what i intend to do. When asked about lash points i was sent a page out of the instruction manual with two moving suggestions. One showing a picture with the tables tops strapped and a big black X through it. The other the suggested method of movement a pallet jack.

On the other hand the rep has not dissuaded how i move the machine as i have been very upfront about my moving /space restrictions from the get go.

anyone have a Felder machine they have lifted with straps?

The other thread you mention is concerned with tolerances which may be affected AFTER the initial dialing in, caused by the constant movement of the machinery. In your case, you're concerned with the initial move, after which your machine will be in place, and can be dialed in. Two different situations.

As far as using straps goes, check with the manufacturer - they'll be able to recommend attachment points for your straps (or recommend against the idea entirely).

ian maybury

09-05-2015, 8:10 AM

Hi Patrick. I raised the current round of discussion of chassis flexibility and its possible effect on settings as being a factor to consider on planer thicknessers moved about on casters. As Roy my particular experience just suggests that a finely set machine may be disturbed if it's wheeled on to a different surface - one which hasn't quite the same contours/levels as the one it was originally set up on. Presuming the second surface is only slightly out of flat (as in a floated concrete floor/there has been no severe twisting), then returning it to the original surface may well restore the status quo. My conclusion was just that it's better not to move a machine that's been finely dialled in if at all possible...

I'm no expert on handling, but for sure the Hammer machines (don't know about Felder) are delivered mostly set up to be moved on a pallet, or using a pallet jack/truck. They are typically locked down on the OEM pallet with screwed brackets so they can't slide off. Pallet trucks are a PIA on gravelled or soft surfaces - they dig in unless sheeting or whatever is laid. They will twist quite severely if not on a flat surface. Lots of help is definitely advisable as planer thicknessers tend to be be tippy from side to side on a pallet truck too - they carry a lot of weight up high, and the constraints on fork placement mean they are often not well centred.

I'm not sure how people handle ramps, but have heard mention of their sliding them down a timber surface laid over steps etc, with lots of straps attached and people to pull on them so that the machine slides only very slowly and can't tip over. Maybe a boat winch or similar purpose made would be useful? Apart from the risk of a major problem it's easy to chip paint or bend any unsupported edges on the cabinet, so a lot of care and possibly a sled (with battens or whatever so the machine can't slide off it) could be useful.

There's a similar pic to that you describe prohibiting lifting by the tables in the Hammer manual (no surprise) - but there is a mention that if lifting using slings to ensure that they pass under the bottom of the cabinet. So it's not prohibited, at least not by Hammer.

I'd imagine they avoid making more specific recommendations and leave the detail to those doing the lifting so as not to encourage the less than expert - there's the potential to e.g. damage switches, scuff paint or bend sheet metal if the straps are not properly positioned and fragile stuff protected. Heavy twisting loads are not a good idea - e.g. dropping all the weight on a corner. Care would be needed to select the correct type and placement of the straps too so that it couldn't tip over and out of them - the centre of gravity is high enough for this to be a possibility if it wasn't properly rigged.

It's one of those situations that is routine for somebody experienced in handling stuff of that sort, but which on the other hand needs to be done right as (not exactly ground breaking news) getting it wrong could have significant consequences...

Kent Adams

09-05-2015, 8:53 AM

Unless you know someone with a crane that will cut you a deal, it may be more expensive to rent a crane than it would be to remove a section of fencing and then putting it back after its moved. As far as the ramp in your picture, if you have two people and a pallet jack, it would be easy peasy to take it down that ramp. One person holding the handle of the jack in the back and one in front giving resistance so to control the descent. Harbor Freight also sells truck dolly's for about $100 that will move 1000 lbs. I have one of those and it works great moving heavy equipment. Again, you'll need 2 people though for anything more than a couple hundred pounds.

David Kumm

09-05-2015, 9:21 AM

The 941 will be a more stout build than the Hammer but I would still pick up from the bottom and not from the tables as you have stated. You might also be able to rent an electric pallet jack or at least a come a long to help control the descent. The machine will need to be dialed in after placed but a couple of guys should be able to handle it. I've moved machines up to 4000 lbs and it only gets real scary over 2000. You need a solid surface on the lawn, sidewalk or at least ply laid down. Dave

Chris Parks

09-05-2015, 9:57 AM

Roy Harding

09-05-2015, 10:09 AM

David, what would need to be dialed in? My machine was spot on and needed no adjustment after I unloaded it from a trailer with no lifting involved, we just tipped up the trailer and slid it off.

Just to to add to this observation, my Felder CF531P didn't need any adjustment after placement either. But it was still checked out thoroughly after placement, and if there HAD been adjustments needed, they would have been done then. I don't know how common our experience of not needing dialling in after shipment is, and certainly hope for the same experience for everybody - but the machine still needs to be checked after placement and any dialling in accomplished then.

Chris Parks

09-05-2015, 11:00 AM

Run some wood through it and see what the result is?

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 11:41 AM

I do know a crane operator through work. Still no deal though $700 for five hours.

Even of i take the fence down i have to contend with a grade problem and a off camber 90% corner at the apex of that grade change.

i do have a brand spnkin new pallet jack to move the machine around or machines around my shop if need ever be.

Unless you know someone with a crane that will cut you a deal, it may be more expensive to rent a crane than it would be to remove a section of fencing and then putting it back after its moved. As far as the ramp in your picture, if you have two people and a pallet jack, it would be easy peasy to take it down that ramp. One person holding the handle of the jack in the back and one in front giving resistance so to control the descent. Harbor Freight also sells truck dolly's for about $100 that will move 1000 lbs. I have one of those and it works great moving heavy equipment. Again, you'll need 2 people though for anything more than a couple hundred pounds.

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 11:45 AM

Decent down the ramp os my concern. Just outside that door atop the ramp is a 4/8 platform built atop a 4x4 frame. The machine will be dropped on that platform after being removed from its shipping pallet.

To date the plan is to use a come along on the apposing wall mounted to my foundation via four 5/8 expansion bolts and some unistrut to gently pull the machine down the ramp.

My only concern with this part of the plan is what if the machine wants to come down that ramp real quick like. I have no way of securing the machine from the upside of the ramp as to let a little slack out from above at a time.

So is what i am hearing is no concerns with lifting the machine from underneath with straps via crane?

Crane is hired so i gotta pay him. Plus i just assume take as little risk of dumping or hurting the machine as possible. $700 seems like short money if in a hours time i can land that machine in its new home unscathed.

The 941 will be a more stout build than the Hammer but I would still pick up from the bottom and not from the tables as you have stated. You might also be able to rent an electric pallet jack or at least a come a long to help control the descent. The machine will need to be dialed in after placed but a couple of guys should be able to handle it. I've moved machines up to 4000 lbs and it only gets real scary over 2000. You need a solid surface on the lawn, sidewalk or at least ply laid down. Dave

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 11:55 AM

I am counting on the machine arriving dialed in perfect. Hence i really dont want to do anything to throw it out of wack!

Just to to add to this observation, my Felder CF531P didn't need any adjustment after placement either. But it was still checked out thoroughly after placement, and if there HAD been adjustments needed, they would have been done then. I don't know how common our experience of not needing dialling in after shipment is, and certainly hope for the same experience for everybody - but the machine still needs to be checked after placement and any dialling in accomplished then.

David Hawxhurst

09-05-2015, 12:11 PM

I am counting on the machine arriving dialed in perfect. Hence i really dont want to do anything to throw it out of wack!

i won't. every machine i've ever gotten from felder has needed at least some sort of tweaking/fine tuning. on my ad741 the tables came coplanar, just needed to fine tune the height on of out feed table. the tension on the rollers needed to be reset as it was slipping a lot when running maple through the planar.

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 12:50 PM

Well if and when the time comes maybe you can help me with the specifics ;)

i won't. every machine i've ever gotten from felder has needed at least some sort of tweaking/fine tuning. on my ad741 the tables came coplanar, just needed to fine tune the height on of out feed table. the tension on the rollers needed to be reset as it was slipping a lot when running maple through the planar.

Alan Hick

09-05-2015, 12:55 PM

Can you lift a J/P with straps? Sure. And I believe you saw John Seybold’s review of his Felder AD741 from earlier this year. He lifted his with straps and an engine hoist.

I lifted my AD741 with straps and an electric winch. I only needed to lift it so I could install the Felder “mobility kit”, but lifting is lifting. If you’ve arranged for a crane then all you need to figure out is how to attach the straps.

John and I seem to have done essentially the same thing. In your case, you could run the straps under the machine, but above the pallet, or you could lift the pallet.

The pallet that my machine came on was just short of 7ft x 4ft. The top boards were a full 1 inch thick with no spacing between them, and they were securely fastened to 4 vertically oriented 4x3’s that ran width-wise across the pallet. So, if it were me I might slide 2 4x8’s, maybe 5ft long each, under the pallet, just outboard of the two central 4x3’s and affix the ends of the straps to the 4x8’s, and put a few timber screws through the pallet boards into the 4x8’s to hold things steady in place. Or I might just lift it the way I lifted it--straps running under the machine oriented length-wise. But, as you know there are 16 ways to do any job, so whatever makes you comfortable.

The ramp looks like it will work fine, as long as the high end is very well attached.
You can probably slide the machine down it by yourself if you’re in decent shape, but, prudence in the face of considerable weight and considerable cost suggests you have at least one, and preferably two helpers, just in case something goes caddywhompus (wait, can I say that?).

As far as things coming perfectly dialed in--they may be, but I wouldn't count on it. Both my J/P and my bandsaw needed some help. And since there were no scratches, dents, dings, or other evidence of mishandling by the freight company, I have to assume both machines left the Felder factory set as I found them.

Good Luck.

David Kumm

09-05-2015, 1:46 PM

[QUOTE=Chris Parks;2463755]David, what would need to be dialed in? My machine was spot on and needed no adjustment after I unloaded it from a trailer with no lifting involved, we just tipped up the trailer and slid it off.[/QUOTE

Chris, when you get any machine that is fully dialed in from the factory, you should buy a lottery ticket. Even the big old cast iron machines need tweaking when moved. Doesn't mean they are poorly made, but the cost to handle stresses of loading, unloading, lifting and shoving are different than what they are primarily engineered for. If you look at the history of woodworking machines, you will see bases in cast iron until that got expensive, then 1/2-3/4" steel welded, sometimes with full top and bottom, and over
the years to 8mm, 6mm, 4mm, you get the picture. Advances have been made in how the steel structure is reinforced but cost dictates some compromises. I've set up about 50 machines from 1920s to current and I have never found one that couldn't be improved in function or adjustment. They don't have to be perfect to work well though. Many jointer tables are off flat over .010 and still make a straight board. Dave

Bill Stephenson

09-05-2015, 1:53 PM

I sent my cabinet saw down a ramp like yours into my basement. I was able to drive my truck into the yard & hook a come along to the hitch to prevent the saw from sliding down the ramp to fast. If you can't put a truck in the yard maybe you could use a tree or drive a post in the ground to hook the come along on. The saw was slid down a couple of 2x10s. on a stairway. My decent angle was steeper than yours appears to be.

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 2:24 PM

Thats right, i do remember that thread on the new itineration of the AD741. Funny my order was originaly for that machine.

I need the machine off the pallet to fit it through my door opening. Im tild the pallet it 4' by just over 8'ence no lift gate delivery. The Ad741 would fit ona lift gate for some reason? Dont ask i dont know.

The plan for getting straps under the machine is to use a low profile car jack and a block under the center section of the machine where you van slide a fork. Or just use one of the 50mm bolts in the back of the machine and my pallet jack and do one side at a time.

I cant wait to have this move behind me.

i just finished instaling the lag bolts and unistrut into my foundation to attach the winch.

Can you lift a J/P with straps? Sure. And I believe you saw John Seybold’s review of his Felder AD741 from earlier this year. He lifted his with straps and an engine hoist.

I lifted my AD741 with straps and an electric winch. I only needed to lift it so I could install the Felder “mobility kit”, but lifting is lifting. If you’ve arranged for a crane then all you need to figure out is how to attach the straps.

John and I seem to have done essentially the same thing. In your case, you could run the straps under the machine, but above the pallet, or you could lift the pallet.

The pallet that my machine came on was just short of 7ft x 4ft. The top boards were a full 1 inch thick with no spacing between them, and they were securely fastened to 4 vertically oriented 4x3’s that ran width-wise across the pallet. So, if it were me I might slide 2 4x8’s, maybe 5ft long each, under the pallet, just outboard of the two central 4x3’s and affix the ends of the straps to the 4x8’s, and put a few timber screws through the pallet boards into the 4x8’s to hold things steady in place. Or I might just lift it the way I lifted it--straps running under the machine oriented length-wise. But, as you know there are 16 ways to do any job, so whatever makes you comfortable.

The ramp looks like it will work fine, as long as the high end is very well attached.
You can probably slide the machine down it by yourself if you’re in decent shape, but, prudence in the face of considerable weight and considerable cost suggests you have at least one, and preferably two helpers, just in case something goes caddywhompus (wait, can I say that?).

As far as things coming perfectly dialed in--they may be, but I wouldn't count on it. Both my J/P and my bandsaw needed some help. And since there were no scratches, dents, dings, or other evidence of mishandling by the freight company, I have to assume both machines left the Felder factory set as I found them.

Good Luck.

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 2:40 PM

I got my cabinet saw down the same ramp just not attached nearly as well as i have now constructed it for this move. It was a piece of cake to be honest.

I pretty much did it by myself. It did get moving a bit faster than i would had liked at one point. A cleat on the ramp and a cleat on the platform outside the door will connect the two pieces with Timberlock screws and a piece of LVL that spans the doors threshold. I will also screw a small cleat into my basement floor at the end of the ramp so there is no chance it can kick or slip.

I will have the help of two guys and maybe even the crane operator if he is nice. I doubt it but you never know.

I have absolutely zero way to secure the machine on the upside of the ramp as i have a bluestone patio that runs into a PVC fence. I suppose i could screw a couple blocks to my foundation around my door and run a 4x4 to them and a winch. Only problem is this does nothing for me till the machine is practically down the ramp.

I thought about screwing little cleats every 6" or so all the way down the ramp and just remove them as the machine makes contact with them. Getting them off without loosing a finger could be interesting?

I'm sure it will all be fine or i would not even try. I build houses for a living foundation to the custom cabinets and built ins for them. I think i will figure this out as i have done way more involved and crazy crap as this. I was just getting payed and if something went wrong it would be a big problem but not my $12000 problem. I just might have a bad day or couple weeks?

I just don't want to hurt my new machine. It cost as much as my last truck purchase. Clearly my taste in trucks is more practical than that of my woodworking machinery.

I sent my cabinet saw down a ramp like yours into my basement. I was able to drive my truck into the yard & hook a come along to the hitch to prevent the saw from sliding down the ramp to fast. If you can't put a truck in the yard maybe you could use a tree or drive a post in the ground to hook the come along on. The saw was slid down a couple of 2x10s. on a stairway. My decent angle was steeper than yours appears to be.

David Davies

09-05-2015, 4:00 PM

Patrick,
You're going to have a difficult time moving the AD941 with a pallet jack. I have a the AD941 and a narrow fork pallet jack and it doesn't really work as advertised. The owners manual says to insert a bolt through the back of the JP sticking out and one of the forks of the pallet jack lifts at the bolt while the other goes under the base. When I lifted the pallet jack the machine tipped onto the front edge of the saw. I got it into position and haven't had to move it again. But over on the Felder forum someone suggested I lift the tables up to try and move the center of gravity back onto the back edge of the machine. The next time I need to move the JP that's what I'm going to try and I would suggest you start with this.
Dave

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 4:30 PM

Funny,

The felder rep sent me pictures of the machine with a narrow fork pallet jack under it. All the pictures show the tables turned up. I figured this was exactly for the reason you suggest. Thai simple fact is oart of what made me say the heck with it i'll just hire a crane and play it safe.

That off camber turn atop plywood placed over a stepping stone walkway and the pallet jack and the machine being top heavy and not well balanced is a risk I'm just not willing to take. Plus factor in possible rain and it will not be a option to not get this machine into my house the same day i take it from the UPS facility.

How do you like the machine?

.
Patrick,
You're going to have a difficult time moving the AD941 with a pallet jack. I have a the AD941 and a narrow fork pallet jack and it doesn't really work as advertised. The owners manual says to insert a bolt through the back of the JP sticking out and one of the forks of the pallet jack lifts at the bolt while the other goes under the base. When I lifted the pallet jack the machine tipped onto the front edge of the saw. I got it into position and haven't had to move it again. But over on the Felder forum someone suggested I lift the tables up to try and move the center of gravity back onto the back edge of the machine. The next time I need to move the JP that's what I'm going to try and I would suggest you start with this.
Dave

ian maybury

09-05-2015, 5:35 PM

The Hammer A341 definitely needs the tables up to centre the weight if moving it on the recommended narrow fork pallet truck - it's otherwise very close to tipping over. Seems likely the Felder machines are similar - it's pretty much inherent in the layout of a planer thicknesser.

I'll start sounding negative if i get too specific, and markets may differ in some respects - but personal experience suggests too that getting a perfectly set up machine from factories is 'not a given'.

What's more paying for a service guy to set it up doesn't necessarily guarantee the deal either. If he's capable he'll get it close enough to be usable, but given tight time allowances very fine tuning while not impossible isn't certain either. There also has to be some general risk of a problem being quietly discounted if it's something very expensive to rectify.

There's realistically not much option but to get hands on yourself if you want to get control of the situation - or at least be experienced enough that you understand precisely what's being done...

Stuff like out of flat tables can be very critical or not so much - it depends a lot on where the irregularities are. A dip or hump of only a few thou in the last part of the infeed table just before the knives can play havoc - as can a dip at the start of the outfeed. Or worse a dip followed by a hump. A board may bridge a dip for part of the cut, but e.g. all sorts of oddness is possible at the start and finish - or with short work.

One important perspective is the effective angle involved. A .005in (often regarded as insignificant) dip or hump over say 4in creates a similar slope/angle of inclination as maybe .050in or more (regarded as huge) over the length of a table. On a well set up machine with truly flat tables raising or lowering the outboard end of the infeed by something like 0.003in will very likely produce a noticeable change in the straightness/line of cut when jointing. Then there's factors like the length of the piece, and differences in behaviour depending on the line in which it's passed over the cutter.

The bottom line is that only flat is flat.....

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 7:56 PM

Well it looks like i may have quite the learning experience ahead of me. I will be happy to become so familiar with my new machine right from get go. On the other hand i will be extremely trepidatious and not very stoked to screw with a machine worth as much as my car that i just payed huge money for and would like to think for the orice a tech came and made sure it was right.

Oh well....

The Hammer A341 definitely needs the tables up to centre the weight if moving it on the recommended narrow fork pallet truck - it's otherwise very close to tipping over. Seems likely the Felder machines are similar - it's pretty much inherent in the layout of a planer thicknesser.

I'll start sounding negative if i get too specific, and markets may differ in some respects - but personal experience suggests too that getting a perfectly set up machine from factories is 'not a given'.

What's more paying for a service guy to set it up doesn't necessarily guarantee the deal either. If he's capable he'll get it close enough to be usable, but given tight time allowances very fine tuning while not impossible isn't certain either. There also has to be some general risk of a problem being quietly discounted if it's something very expensive to rectify.

There's realistically not much option but to get hands on yourself if you want to get control of the situation - or at least be experienced enough that you understand precisely what's being done...

Stuff like out of flat tables can be very critical or not so much - it depends a lot on where the irregularities are. A dip or hump of only a few thou in the last part of the infeed table just before the knives can play havoc - as can a dip at the start of the outfeed. A board may bridge a dip for part of the cut, but e.g. all sorts of oddness is possible at the start and finish - or with short work.

One important perspective is the effective angle involved. A .005in (often regarded as insignificant) dip or hump over say 4in creates a similar slope/angle of inclination as maybe .050in or more (regarded as huge) over the length of a table. on a well set up machine with truly flat tables raising or lowering the end of the infeed by something like 0.003in will very likely produce a noticeable change in the straightness/line of cut when jointing. Then there's factors like the length of the piece, and differences in behaviour depending on the line in which it's passed over the cutter.

The bottom line is that only flat is flat.....

David Davies

09-05-2015, 8:15 PM

Patrick,
I think, in fact, it was Ian that told me to try it with the tables tilted up.

If you haven't signed up on yahoo groups to join the Felder group you really need to do that. The FOG just finished a group discussion about accuracy and setting up machines I'm sure you would have been interested in.

And don't assume your machine will be tuned when you get it. Mine wasn't. But a call to Felder and the technician got on the phone and we were able to figure out what my problem was...one he hadn't seen before on a 941. But he worked through possible problems over the phone until he was able to pinpoint the problem and I'm up and running quite nicely now.

Dave

Patrick Walsh

09-05-2015, 9:26 PM

Can you shoot me a link to that group.

google is not being my friend..

Patrick,
I think, in fact, it was Ian that told me to try it with the tables tilted up.

If you haven't signed up on yahoo groups to join the Felder group you really need to do that. The FOG just finished a group discussion about accuracy and setting up machines I'm sure you would have been interested in.

And don't assume your machine will be tuned when you get it. Mine wasn't. But a call to Felder and the technician got on the phone and we were able to figure out what my problem was...one he hadn't seen before on a 941. But he worked through possible problems over the phone until he was able to pinpoint the problem and I'm up and running quite nicely now.

Dave

Roy Harding

09-06-2015, 12:21 AM

Dave is right about the FOG (Felder Owners Group) being an invaluable resource. You'll need to be a Yahoo "member", if I recall correctly, but you can find them here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/felder-woodworking/info

ian maybury

09-06-2015, 6:08 AM

;) Sorry, Patrick - I didn't mean to put a damper on the anticipation of what is a fabulous machine. These are just the possibilities that seem to arise for some, many get a machine that they just treat as a black box and it ends up (for presumably a variety of possible reasons) meeting their needs just fine. My instincts are (a) to like my machines precisely set up (so i'm probably pickier than most), and (b) to get as hands on as i can manage with stuff as (while we all need specialised information and assistance at times) total dependence on 'experts' can on occasion prove frustrating and expensive. I managed a machine servicing operation for a while way back, and tend to be a little cynical about the sort of issues that arise at times - and why.

You're doing great anyway. You're not making too many assumptions, and are reaching out in advance for help and information to get up to speed. It's by the way worth digging up a copy of the set up and alignments manual and parts lists for the machine in advance, and using them (with an advance copy of the user manual) to get a handle on the sort of stuff that matters. There are indeed some very knowledgeable people on FOG, many excellent discussions get going there - it teaches a lot over time.

Bottom line is that (while it's much like woodworking in that subtle considerations pop up at times so gaining some hands on experience helps a lot) realistically there isn't anything more complicated in understanding the alignments of most woodworking machines than arises in making an accurate cabinet or the like...