Handsaw cut quality?

[Jay Aubuchon]

I had an old E. C. Atkins #65 8-point crosscut saw sharpened recently. It certainly is sharp now, but I'm wondering if I should be getting a smoother cut. Here's a look at the teeth.

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And here's a cut in maple.

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If the cut should be smoother, what's the likely problem? Inconsistent setting? Poor saw technique? Something else?

[Jim Koepke]

Jay,

Do you have a way of measuring the set compared to the saw plate at the base of the teeth?

An 8 point per inch saw will leave a rough cut. That looks a little rougher than I would expect

The saw may have more set than needed.

jtk

[Richard Line]

An 8 point saw is, in my opinion, a saw for rough cuts, not finish cuts. That said, I agree with Jim's assessment that the set is probably too great. Or maybe you were pushing the saw too vigorously and forcefully into the cut, but more likely the set. If you will be primarily cutting dried wood (hard or soft) then you may want something like a total of 0.003" to 0.004" of set on each side. If you don't have a saw set (or even if you do) an easy way to reduce the set is to wrap the tooth line with 1 or 2 sheets of newsprint and squeeze the teeth in a smooth jawed vise.

[Tom Vanzant]

Another thing...It appears that you sawed perpendicular to the board. Try sawing at about 45 deg to put more teeth "in the cut" for a smoother cut.

[Jay Aubuchon]

This saw was given to me by a neighbor when I was much younger, maybe 40 years ago. I'm primarily a power-tool user, but every now and then it is — shall we say — handy to grab this saw to cut a board or two to rough length. After all these years, I finally had it sharpened.

It is hard to find anyone to sharpen a handsaw around here. Fortunately, a friend spotted a sign for Steve's Sharpening while driving through a small community somewhere between home and Grizzly's Muncy showroom (sigh). Steve is an older Amish man. He charged me $8.00 plus tax. I think I got my money's worth.

The set on each side is more like 0.018". I can try reducing that. I could ask for less set the next time I have a saw sharpened.

Meanwhile, sawing at an angle certainly improves things considerably.

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Thanks for the help!

[Tom M King]

The next time or two it gets sharpened, just don't do any more setting. As long as it's sharp, it should break down boards pretty easily. When it starts to dull, it will be pretty obvious trying to take that wide of a kerf.

[Doug McKay]

Looks like a couple teeth are set more than the others, or may a burr?. Do you see any teeth set out more than the other ones?

[Tom M King]

With the teeth bent out that far, I'd be afraid some might break if you try squeezing them back in.

[lowell holmes]

Look around for a 10 tpi crosscut saw and get it sharpened. You will not regret it.

You might try stoning the teeth on the saw you have. If you do, one stroke per side and try it, repeat until you achieve the results you want.

You might try downloading Ron Herman's video on hand saws from Popular Woodworking Magazine.

[Jay Aubuchon]

As usual, you Creekers provided good advice. I could not find any flaws in the sharpening or setting. The teeth seemed all very close in height. None seemed to be sticking out more than others. I didn't see any burrs. Perhaps an experienced eye would have found such problems. On the other hand, the following suggestions all helped.

a. Better technique, including adjusting my angle to get more teeth in the wood, and sawing less aggressively.

b. Reducing the set. After more careful measuring, I found that the set was more like 0.012" on each side, not the 0.018" I mentioned previously. I was able to reduce this to something much closer to 0.004" by squeezing in a smooth-jawed vise. I had to improvise the vice by using two-sided tape to stick some flat pieces of steel to the jaws of my machinist vice (as suggested in an older thread).

c. Minimal stoning; just 2 or 3 very light passes on each side.

This picture shows the progression, with the initial test at the top and the last test at the bottom.

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This is smooth enough for me, especially considering that I'm not trying to use this saw for anything near a final cut. The saw starts the cut better too, with less tendency to grab and jump around.

[John Kananis]

Much better, try running a stone along the teeth for a pass or two, mask off the plate or just be careful - should 'help' a tiny bit more but that's pretty decent for an 8ppi saw. Did the gentleman who did the sharpening ask whether you'd be cutting green or dry stock (I assume with the amount of set he used, green)?

[Robert Engel]

$8 to sharpen a saw? I wish I could find someone like that.
If he resets teeth, a uniform tooth set is important.

Its amazing how well a very sharp, properly set saw can cut.

[Jim Koepke]

It's looking good Jay.

Amazing how much difference a change to the set can do for a smoother or rougher cut.

My first time using a vise to correct the set on a saw blade was also after reading it here.

jtk

[Jim Davis]

Well, eventually you got some good mentoring, but later than optimal. Better to have done the stoning first and skipped the "squeezing." I would never put any metal against any part of a saw tooth except to file it. Squeezing in a vice put steel against the side of the cutting edges. Just anathema to me.

The filer probably set the saw for cutting green wood. If he had set it for dry hardwood, you would have had a hard time cutting a 2x4. In fact, now that you have squeezed it AND stoned it, framing lumber will not be your favorite cut.

My handsaws (30 plus) are all most all set for dry hardwood and will make a cut as smooth or smoother than a table saw. Saw teeth are saw teeth whether on a handsaw plate or a circular saw. The way they are sharpened and put in order is the only thing that effects the cut.

[Jay Aubuchon]

Much better, try running a stone along the teeth for a pass or two, mask off the plate or just be careful - should 'help' a tiny bit more but that's pretty decent for an 8ppi saw. Did the gentleman who did the sharpening ask whether you'd be cutting green or dry stock (I assume with the amount of set he used, green)?

No, John, he did not ask. But the next time I will be certain to tell him.

By the way, I did make a couple of passes with a stone before making that last test cut. I could try and see what another pass or two would do.

[Jay Aubuchon]

John, I did make a couple of passes with a stone before that last test cut. I could try a couple more.

The man who did the sharpening did not ask me what I would be cutting. Next time, I will be sure to tell him.

[Jim Koepke]

The man who did the sharpening did not ask me what I would be cutting. Next time, I will be sure to tell him.

You may also mention you want a minimal set. Better yet is ask him not to set the blade and get your own saw set. It is easier and more predictable to add a little set than it is to remove too much.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Having sharpened saws myself as well as sending them out, I find the $8.00 dirt cheap, considering cost of good files and second find the time (albeit not that much if you're just touching up). My first impression is a bit too much set, and I would squeeze very gently, covering the teeth with a couple layers of copy paper in a smooth jaw vise. After years of putzing with saws, a gentle hand squeezing too much set, has yielded me better results than stoning. The trick with squeezing is that it is easy to overdo it-you just want to even the set and if you feel the vise tightening, you've gone to far.

$8.00 per saw????? Hand or machine? Look at the saw and if the saw plate now appears to have a gentle sway to it, or if there is a scratch pattern above the tooth line, it was probably a machine.

[Jim Davis]

You may also mention you want a minimal set. Better yet is ask him not to set the blade and get your own saw set. It is easier and more predictable to add a little set than it is to remove too much.

jtk

But setting really needs to be done before filing. The setting tool rides on the tips of the teeth and slightly dulls them.

[Jim Koepke]

But setting really needs to be done before filing. The setting tool rides on the tips of the teeth and slightly dulls them.

Most saws in my experience have been over set.

I haven't had the problem of dulling teeth with a saw set.

jtk

[Jay Aubuchon]

$8.00 per saw????? Hand or machine? Look at the saw and if the saw plate now appears to have a gentle sway to it, or if there is a scratch pattern above the tooth line, it was probably a machine.

I do not see any sway in the plate, nor do I see any scratch pattern above the tooth line.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I do not see any sway in the plate, nor do I see any scratch pattern above the tooth line.

Sounds like a hand filed saw to me!

When a saw goes through a Foley re-toother, a slight bend is generally the result. With auto-feed Foley's, right above the toothline, generally a light scratch pattern results from how the machine grips and advances the saw. This does not imply a machine filed saw is inferior, just that a machine filed saw typically has all teeth identical. Some custom saw makers use machines to cut teeth, a few even use them to file the teeth, and just give a swipe or two by hand to give the saw a hand filed feel.