Real cost of hand tool woodworking

[James Pallas]

Because of some recent posts I started thinking about the real costs involved with hand tool work. This is just a scenario for discussion. If you buy a tool new or used you need to be able to maintain that tool. So you buy a jack plane to flatten rough lumber. Then you buy coarse medium and fine water stones (seems to be the consensus here). Then you buy a couple of diamond stones to maintain the water stones. If you buy a used plane you need to buy tools for rehab work also. If you buy a new good quality plane you should be good to go. So for five hundred to one thousand dollars you are ready to flatten the face of a board. This is sharpening by hand, no guide, and using the edge of the plane for a straight edge. If you want to do more than that you are off again to purchase more tools. So I think this is an expensive hobby. I'm not against it just my opinion. What do you think?
Jim

[Curt Putnam]

Cost accounting will tell you that the cost of the stones must be amortized over all the edges they will maintain; same for the rehab tools. I don't imagine that most folks contemplate buying a single jack and leaving the whole scenario at that.

[Jim Koepke]

My first Jack Plane was given to me by a friend. There were a few smaller oil stones in my shop from years earlier to sharpen knives. Scary sharp is an inexpensive entry level system.

As far as rehabbing or maintaining old tools if one has maintained a vehicle of any type, adjusting and taking care of a plane should be a piece of cake.

If someone doesn't already own a screwdriver, it would be thoughtless of me to advise they go buy a screwdriver so they can then buy a plane needing rehab. This is where having others as mentors can be a big help.

If one wants to get involved on the cheap with some less than perfect tools it doesn't have to cost a lot of money. At my start of woodworking I couldn't afford to buy good lumber. All of my early projects were made from wood salvaged mostly from shipping pallets. My tools were an old saw, a hammer and sandpaper. Flea markets and yard sales were a source of some of my early tools. Didn't have to have them all at once.

One has to also consider that there were a lot of tools for other work accumulated over my years of working on bicycles, automobiles, computers and other things.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

Jack planes can be had for next to nothing if you spend just a little time looking. No need to buy new sharpening stones. I could get eight to ten people set up to flatten boards with your proposed budget. It can be a very expensive hobby if you let it, but it can also be pretty inexpensive if you don't insist on new everything (and don't count lumber costs). Just like golf. You can spend $3,000 on a new set of clubs or you can buy everything you need at a yard sale for $75 and just get out there.

[paul cottingham]

Planes also never wear out. So that must be taken into account.

[Christian Thompson]

To just flatten a board you can grab a jack plane for $30 and a $50 combo stone. You can flatten the stone with sandpaper. This isn't the best setup, but it's good enough for a start. I bought my jack on ebay and it was in decent enough shape that I didn't have to do a thing to it. So that's $90 including the sandpaper. Of course you still need a bench...

I bought that video "the naked woodworker" from lost art press because I really need to build a new bench. But I really don't want to build a new bench :-). Supposedly the bench in the video is quick and easy to build and looks traditional enough. Anyway, I still haven't watched the video, but I guess the premise was to get from nothing to a decent setup with a minimum of investment. The summary of the video says about $700, but that's for the whole deal.

[george wilson]

I made out pretty well back in the 50's with a Sears block plane and a 50 cent hardware chisel(New price was 50 cents!)Back then the only stone we ever had was a cheap old gray one,then strop,strop,strop on a piece of paper. Eventually a pretty sharp edge could be raised.

But,I had a lot more energy back then,and my joints were not yet all worn out!

[Warren Mickley]

When I changed from part time to full time I had about $950 invested in tools. Three decades later I am at about $2500. A lot of the additions have been carving tools, which I always buy new. When I divide the amount spent on sharpening stones and grindstone by the tools sharpened, I get $0.0008 per tool sharpened. You might be buying some unnecessary things.

It is easier to justify purchases for a hobby than for a business. For a hobby you can say which would I rather do, go to a restaurant or ball game, take a trip, or buy this tool. In a business, besides the catalog price, you have to think of the cost to get the tool in shape, and the time to get familiar enough with it to make it part of your routine. Then balance that with the additional income expected. Hard to buy a Bazingo stone just to see what it is like.

[Matthew N. Masail]

As pointed out the hobby dosent have to be expensive. If you knew what you were doing you can get everything you need for quite little money. Problem is it costs money to learn without guidance. Most of us spend more because we want to, not because we have to. We enjoy the tool and equipment hobby as well as the woodworking one.

[James Pallas]

Wow! This is all good stuff. It was my reason for the post. There is a lot of great info at SMC. I have lots of good tools myself that have been accumulated over the years. Sometimes I do see here that a new person could be overwhelmed when they ask about a tool or a process and are given solid info but not the bottom line info for a beginner or even someone with little experience. Some need to be told that it is okay to start out with less and it will work okay. The mentoring thing is a big deal also. Thanks everyone for your replies. I still have my old carborundum stone and it still gets used but it is also nice to have my sigmas as well.
jim

[Brian Holcombe]

Since this is a hobby for me I take into consideration the cost of buying furniture. If I wanted a table or book shelf it's going to cost me more than what the tools to build it would cost (well…..:) ). I put the sweat equity in, but that is worth it for me.

[Graham Haydon]

Zac's point is very fair. You can do whatever you like however you like but if cost was an issue pick up a plane from a yard sale and grab an india stone or an old Washita. David shows how you can get a plane ready quickly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khP74IuFljY . Well worth checking out his videos.

Same with chisels, Aldi cheapies, second hand options or new more expensive one, whatever floats your boat, it matters not.

Just have fun and don't assume miracles by spending money, finding time to practice is much more difficult for most people than access to appropriate tools.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

My wife shares Brian Holcombe's line of thinking. Between her and I, we have a half-joking deal: I build a piece of whatever, I get a tool (new or old). Of course, the piece must be functional and not held together with spider web. As of right now, I am working to add two white oak QTRS adirondack chairs for our patio. After completion, I get to buy something I need/want. I am so troubled between the choices!

If I account for labor time, I'd be bankrupted long ago!

[Frederick Skelly]

Depends on what one calls "expensive", and of course that varies. I nearly vomited when I heard guys talking about buying $5,000 tablesaws recently. That's more money than I have in every machine and hand tool I own. But to each his/her own.

But you can definitely get carried away with handtools if you aren't careful. I bought a devil of a lot of sharpening stuff, as I kept trying to move from scary sharp to surgically sharp. For MY hobbyist budget, I feel I overdid it in that arena because I now only need/use a subset of the stuff. (No, the excess isn't up for grabs!) But my planes are a mix of new and old and my backsaws are the $79 LVs. None of them are from the amazing high end makers. I even avoid LN if I can.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

You don't need to buy everything at once. You could make a pretty decent shelf for example with a set of chisels, one of those Japanese combination pull saws, a block plane and a few clamps. That is how I built the first shelf I ever built, with the boards clamped to the counter in the kitchen. Not anyone's idea of fine furniture, but I learned a lot and it is still going strong ten years later.

I used sandpaper to sharpen everything for a long time. Now I have a coarse water stone, and a 1k/8K combination stone. If they need flattening, I use sandpaper on a piece of granite.

[cody michael]

have a couple jack planes, a bigger 14 inhabitants plane, a jointer plane and 2 block planes with a few other random ones thrown in, I'm have barely used any of them yet but with sandpaper for scary sharp sharpening and a guide I have less then 100$ invested, with the couple tools I bought at a garage sale and later sold I think I'm ahead of the game in my plane collecting, garage sales are awesome! My to best deals were a nice no 7 jointer 2$ a Disston 12 saw 2$ I think I sold that for around 100$ and a no 8 jointer 4$ which I traded for 2 nice block planes

[Paul Sidener]

One of the things my Grandfather instilled in me was there is almost always more than one way to do something. The first time I saw someone cut a dado by hand, it was my Grandfather. I couldn't understand why he would do it that way. He had a radial arm saw and a dado stack. Yet in about five minutes, his dado was cut. Then he explained to me, he just saved about a half hour setting the whole thing up on the radial arm saw to make one cut.

I was reminded of my grandfather, the first time I saw Paul Sellers video on the poor mans router. I prefer my router plane, but Mr. Sellers was showing another way. Both ways work well. You don't need a router plane, but it does make life easy.

James, you ask about "the real costs" of hand tool work, I prefer to look at the savings of hand tool work. When I make something, it is a one of. So on most projects, I just make the piece I need. No test cuts on scrap to make sure something fits right, or check the angle. Don't get me wrong, I have power tools. I will make rough cuts on my table saw, or band saw. After that I use hand tools. I have a surface planer and jointer, I'll use them on longer boards. But I do enjoy using bench planes, and I can hear the radio. I don't think you can really look any form of woodworking as more or less expensive than another. There is just a different way to do something. Either you have a garage full of tools, or a really cool tool chest full. It's a personal choice. Find the way that suits you the best.

My Grandfather would be happy, I did pay attention and I get it.

[Stanley Covington]

Please make sure you include all critical factors in your cost-benefit analysis of woodworking as a hobby.

While many of us buy and make tools far in excess of what we practically need, that is not mandatory to enjoying woodworking. I can remember a time as a college student when all my tools would fit into a baseball-bat bag (with lots of holes worn in it). Most of those tools were obtained second hand for very little money, bought at flea markets and pawn shops. Not only did they feed my family as I worked as a cabinetmaker during the school months and as a carpenter on construction jobsites in Las Vegas during the breaks and holidays, but they gave me great pleasure as I made furniture for our little household and toys for our children. I still own most all of those tools.

As others have pointed out, you may have overlooked the useful lifetime of quality handtools. With some TLC, most will last your lifetime, and children's lifetimes, and even survive to become beloved heirlooms in your grandchildren's hands. There are other hobbies with the same long-lasting "stuff" but not many.

The same is more difficult to assert in the case of golf clubs, motorcycles, stamps, basketballs, baseballs, snow skis, fishing gear, binoculars, or cameras.

My point is that the tools necessary to have a lot of fun woodworking can be few and relatively inexpensive. On the other hand, the collecting of tools can easily become the focus of one's efforts, but at that point, for many the hobby has shifted from primarily woodworking to primarily tool collecting. Nothing wrong with either or both. But please recognize that obtaining a lot of expensive tools is a matter of choice and preference, and is not mandatory to enjoying woodworking as a hobby.

As a hobby, I believe woodworking can be relatively inexpensive. If you calculate the actual costs of many other hobbies, and depreciate the cost of those tools over their actual useful lifetime, and consider that, unlike many hobbies such as computers, video games, motorsports, videography, etc., the handtools necessary to woodworking will not become obsolete for many generations, I suspect the balance sheet will favor woodworking above most hobbys.

Stan

[Allan Speers]

....If you buy a tool new or used you need to be able to maintain that tool. So you buy a jack plane to flatten rough lumber. Then you buy coarse medium and fine water stones (seems to be the consensus here). Then you buy a couple of diamond stones to maintain the water stones. If you buy a used plane you need to buy tools for rehab work also. If you buy a new good quality plane you should be good to go. So for five hundred to one thousand dollars you are ready to flatten the face of a board. This is sharpening by hand, no guide, and using the edge of the plane for a straight edge. If you want to do more than that you are off again to purchase more tools. So I think this is an expensive hobby. I'm not against it just my opinion. What do you think?
Jim

Have you priced 20" jointers and planers lately? :eek:

Woodworking with hand tools is incredibly inexpensive, by comparison.

(Also less noise, less dust, and better exercise.)

[Daniel Rode]

I've been slowly adding hand tools over the last couple of years. I'm frugal. I don't by many things I don't need and I try to buy good quality tools that will last. I have a mix of new and vintage tools. I started with sandpaper on glass to sharpen but soon switched to diamond plates with a waterstone to finish.

I don't have everything I need to do basic prep work and joinery but I'm fairly close. It's mostly specialized tools like shoulder planes that I'm missing. Even so, I rarely need to consider using a power router. I could probably stand to acquire a #7 or #8, but I use a power jointer and thickness planer, so I don't really need one.

Counting every hand tool and supply I've bought, I have not yet spent $1000. Every tool works well and none have required more than a couple of dollars to rehab.

One can spend a lot on premium boutique tools but it's not necessary.

[Robert Engel]

Yes, wwin'g IS an expensive hobby and because of that, a lot of talented people don't get into it.
But like lots of hobbies, it is as expensive as whatever quality tools the craftsman requires/desires.

Its especially difficult for a young guy to get into any kind of ww'ing without a major outlay of $$.
I remember when I started it was with machines were really underpowered, dangerous pieces of junk but somehow I managed to build projects with them. Over the years I've been fortunate to have the financial ability to acquire some decent machines and without them I doubt I would still be into the hobby because of the constant frustration level with poorly made machines.

But it doesn't have to be. Many tools like hand planes can actually be made. Once upon a time there was no Stanley or LN or LV and the ww'ers of old made their own.

[Brian Holcombe]

Despite the cost of living, it still remains popular :)

[Pat Barry]

Because of some recent posts I started thinking about the real costs involved with hand tool work. This is just a scenario for discussion. If you buy a tool new or used you need to be able to maintain that tool. So you buy a jack plane to flatten rough lumber. Then you buy coarse medium and fine water stones (seems to be the consensus here). Then you buy a couple of diamond stones to maintain the water stones. If you buy a used plane you need to buy tools for rehab work also. If you buy a new good quality plane you should be good to go. So for five hundred to one thousand dollars you are ready to flatten the face of a board. This is sharpening by hand, no guide, and using the edge of the plane for a straight edge. If you want to do more than that you are off again to purchase more tools. So I think this is an expensive hobby. I'm not against it just my opinion. What do you think?
Jim
To quote Geddy Lee and Rush - "you can't get something for nothing, you can't have freedom for free, you won't get wise with the sleep still in your eyes no matter what your dreams might be"

[Kees Heiden]

NO! Woodworking does not need to be expensive.

321017

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Because of some recent posts I started thinking about the real costs involved with hand tool work. This is just a scenario for discussion. If you buy a tool new or used you need to be able to maintain that tool. So you buy a jack plane to flatten rough lumber. Then you buy coarse medium and fine water stones (seems to be the consensus here). Then you buy a couple of diamond stones to maintain the water stones. If you buy a used plane you need to buy tools for rehab work also. If you buy a new good quality plane you should be good to go. So for five hundred to one thousand dollars you are ready to flatten the face of a board. This is sharpening by hand, no guide, and using the edge of the plane for a straight edge. If you want to do more than that you are off again to purchase more tools. So I think this is an expensive hobby. I'm not against it just my opinion. What do you think?
Jim

Before I started woodworking, I knew that I needed (wanted) a hand-plane because I had to trim a bit off an old door so that it would close. I then started my research to see what kind of hand plane I needed. I went to the forums and saw all the things you need to do to make a plane usable; because the claim was that a cheap stanly would not work out of the box. I had no idea what to do but the consensus seemed to be that a Lie Nielsen would work out of the box, so I called them and they helped me purchase my first hand plane that I could just use for this one task without learning a bunch of new skills and buying that $1000 worth of equipment.

When I finally decided to get into wood working so that I could build a box I could lock to hold some bullets, I started sharpening on sand paper using a cheap eclipse guide.

Of course along the way, when I had to tune-up a whole mess of chisels, I started purchasing more stuff like a Work Sharp something or other that I gave to a friend since I had some trouble with it (he LOVES IT), a Tormek that I LOVE, and a bunch of stones.

I have finally decided that for the rough stuff for flattening a back, not much seems to beat sand paper. I use a grinder for serious removal, a Tormek to establish the bevel, and water stones to keep them sharp until I need to take them back to the Tormek.

[Christopher Charles]

As much as I love tools and have been known to obsess about the next addition or upgrade, i was recently sorting photos and noted that I recall all of the projects with much more clarity than the tool I used to make them. In fact I hardly recognize some of the tools I used.

C

[Simon MacGowen]

Most hobby woodworkers I know spend a lot of money on their hobby -- tools, lumber and mistakes. To deny that woodworking can be expensive is self-serving if you don't have a strong will. At the Handworks show this year, I saw people leaving with lots of goodies and they weren't cheap. One guy bought or ordered from an Australian vendor some marking tools and that alone I guess would probably rack up a $500 bill, not to mention a few other items he carried around.

A hobby is a hobby and the real cost of it is as much as you would love to spend. Do you prefer to woodwork or refurnish or build tools? Do you like modern brand name tools or garage sales/vintage makes? That makes a lot of difference.

Simon

ps So is a $5000 tablesaw expensive? Compared to a $3500 handplane, nah.

[Steve Voigt]

Because of some recent posts I started thinking about the real costs involved with hand tool work…
Jim

I bet I know which posts those were. I often find myself frustrated when people seem to suggest that the solution to every problem is to run out an buy another newer, better, more expensive tool. I worry that newbies will get the impression that a fortune has to be spent to get started, and your post suggests to me that I'm not wrong to worry about that.

It may seem weird for a guy who makes expensive tools to think like that, and obviously I'm not opposed to people spending as much money as that want, but no one should ever feel like they have to spend a lot to do good work. Money can't buy you skill. I read that Mike Siemsen teaches a class where he cuts dovetails with a hacksaw and a sharpened screwdriver. That's awesome. Recently on Chris Schwarz's blog, Mike wrote:


Build a good solid foundation of skills rather than a tool box full of tools you don’t know how to use, you cannot buy your way in.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone should get the impression that it's a piece of cake to get started with absolute bargain basement tools. It's an arduous road to refurbish a bunch of basket case planes and chisels and saws when you are just starting out and don't know what you are doing. When I see a guy with thirty planes that cost $5 each, I wish he would have spent that money on two good planes instead. When I look around at woodworkers who are both productive and proficient, what I most often see is a relatively small kit of high-quality tools.

Getting back to your specific case for a moment, if I were in your situation, I would get a WWII or earlier Stanley no.5, in great shape, from a reputable seller. I'm thinking that would cost $50 to $80, but I haven't priced Stanleys in a long time, so I could be off. I'd get a second blade, so I could have one heavily cambered iron for roughing, and another for finishing. I would get a medium or fine India stone, less than $20, and a hard black ark. You mentioned freehand sharpening, so you could use a 2 x 6 stone, which would cost less than $50. For periodic flattening of the stones, get a pound of 60-80 loose silicon carbide grit off ebay, $10 shipped, and a piece of glass from a local glass shop, $5 or less (mine was free). Add some wd40 and you're set. This isn't for just flattening a board; it will cover virtually all your bench plane needs until you're ready to diversify a little. I calculate $150-200 for the whole setup. Of course you could go cheaper, but this is an easy way to be in business right away, with virtually no time spent fettling or refurbishing. That's not so bad!

[Jim Koepke]

So is a $5000 tablesaw expensive? Compared to a $3500 handplane, nah.

Yes, people can spend as much as they desire on woodworking. That is the reason my coin collecting was abandoned. Coin collecting just keeps costing more and more. Not much one can do with coins other than look at them.

My most expensive plane was about a tenth of the price you mention. It and two other planes were the total of my premium plane buying. Premium planes were bought because the equivalent in vintage planes would have cost more or not be as usable.

Over the years my total cost for tools accumulated may reach $5,000 or a little more. Over the years some of my projects have sold to recapture some of the expense.

Some folks here take a much different approach than me. They opt for a minimalist set of tools. A few planes, a set of chisels, a few saws, squares, marking gauges and many a woodworker has all they need to make nice furnishings for their homes and their friends' homes.

Some of us buy a lot more tools than we need. These can be fixed up then resold to help pay for our tools. A person who is good at this can end up with a shop full of virtually free tools. Yes my time was taken up, but there wasn't anyone giving me money for not fixing up old tools.

So yes, it can be expensive if you let it. There is nothing wrong with setting up a shop with brand new tools. Many "premium" tools will hold their value through years of use and there may be a small loss in value if they have to be sold.

Many of my tools were not bought out of need as much as they were often found at "offer that can not be refused" prices. My tools will likely return their initial investment or more if they ever need to be sold.

There are many paths on the journey to joinery. It is easy to become tempted by a $3,500 plane or other special woodworking trinkets. Some of us take the rusty path. It is kind of special pushing around a plane that was old before my father was born. Especially the one which only set me back $10 and a bit of elbow grease. Other than new or what may be considered a collector plane, my most expensive bench plane was $50. It is a #8. It takes a lot of patience and time to fill a shop with deals, but my good deals have surely made up for the bad deals. Even the bad deals can be turned around at times.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

ps So is a $5000 tablesaw expensive? Compared to a $3500 handplane, nah.

Ummm, Simon? I take your point, but I'm not buying $3500 handplanes either. :)
Fred

[Kees Heiden]

Some people are really exaggerating the costs of woodworking. Woodworking can be dirt cheap. You just have to tone down your expectations a bit when starting out. I guess, nowadays, most people starting with woodworking allready have some "handyman" experience and tools. A jigsaw, a drill, a handsaw, a few chisels even some measuring and marking stuff. Add a simple #4 plane and an India coarse/fine stone and you can allready make a bunch of beginners projects. Make them from pine or poplar or something similar and all will go well. You don't need a double garage full of equipement to make a few boxes, a coat rack and a book shelf. From there on you just buy new tools as you need them, not because you read about them in a magazine.

[Derek Cohen]

I completely agree with Kees' comments.

When I started out, it was in my mid 20's (now 40 years ago!). My wife and I lived in a small apartment and I had a toolbox that contained a power jigsaw, corded drill and a set of chisels as the main tools. I build bookcases, shelves, renovated one house with these meagre tools. It was only when we moved to our current house, 25 years ago, that I began to add handtools. I had a Stanley #3 and then a #5 1/2, followed by a block plane. Tools were added as they were needed. None of the hand tools were new. One does not need many tools to build a house or furniture.

Go to this thread to see the house building tools of a craftsman in the early part of last century: http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=198218

I now have more handtools than 10 craftsmen need over a life time of woodworking. I am not a good model for anyone starting out. What can I say - I get curious and want to try it out. I do sell or give stuff away. I would be just as happy having a few tools, and I am at the point where I am wanting to thin out the herd towards this end. Over the next year I shall probably do so. The difficulty lies with many of the tools are not just "tools" but memories. How does one give those away?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Kees and Derek There are many good posts here but you two have hit the nail on the head. When I wrote the original post I had read about someone starting out sharpening and the advice went immediately to three high dollar water stones. I just thought how overwhelming that would be for someone starting with a 20 dollar Stanley. Kees your picture is the thousand word thing for sure. Derek your story is the real truth for many people, myself included. Woodworking is a great hobby and it doesn't have to be expensive. All if the advice given on this forum is good but it is also good to know that an India stone will work very well for that old Stanley and there is no shame in using a hard point saw. The rest of the stuff will come if you are bitten by the bug.
Jim

[Kees Heiden]

To be honest, I now have enough for 2 -3 real crafstmen too :D

[Jim Koepke]

I had read about someone starting out sharpening and the advice went immediately to three high dollar water stones. I just thought how overwhelming that would be for someone starting with a 20 dollar Stanley.

Folks love to spend other people's money.

Part of my evolution of sharpening was starting cheap and moving up as more was learned. For me the benefit is learning scary sharp, water stones, diamond stones and finally oilstones. Now there is no hesitation going to the system that will best handle the edge in hand.

My most expensive stones were water stones, but some of them were purchased used. Many of my oilstones were also purchased used and two of my favorite translucent Arkansas stones were bought at a gem an mineral show for $1 each. Wish I had bought more.

My finest water stone is an 8000 Norton. There are times when a finer stone seems to tempt me. Maybe my edges could be just a touch sharper. As it is some folks think it crazy to get a kick out of sub thousandths shavings. Maybe the folks who smirk at thin shavings are the same folks who suggest the three high dollar water stones.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I bet I'm a real piker with regards to my total hand tool investment, partly because I started out using mostly power tools and since I have them I use them (drill press, router, bandsaw, table saw, 12 planer, compound miter saw). My hand tools have been mostly flea market or garage sale finds, some birthday / Christmas presents, and a few select purchase. None the less, I bet my total hand tool expenditure is at least $700 - $900. Sure you can just start with a few tools, but no one is EVER satisfied with that. You will always need more, and you will justify purchasing specialty items because they make your work easier, save time, are more accurate, etc. For example, a router plane isn't necessary but it sure is a nice to have. I get by with my router instead because I have it and it gets the job done and I still haven't found one at a flea market.

[Mike Siemsen]

[QUOTE=Christian Thompson;2463504

I bought that video "the naked woodworker" from lost art press because I really need to build a new bench. But I really don't want to build a new bench :-). Supposedly the bench in the video is quick and easy to build and looks traditional enough. Anyway, I still haven't watched the video, but I guess the premise was to get from nothing to a decent setup with a minimum of investment. The summary of the video says about $700, but that's for the whole deal.[/QUOTE]

The idea behind The Naked Woodworker is to help people get started in woodworking with a minimum outlay of cash. In the first segment we buy the tools at a MWTCA tool meet, nothing staged. We go over what to look for and what to avoid and you see what the tools actually cost. We then refurbish the tools for use in the second half of the video which is about using the tools to build a pair of sawhorses and an English joiners bench. Our actual cost was $571 for all of the tools, a grinder and Oneway tool rest and the materials for the bench and sawhorses. All of the work was done in less than three days, a person with less experience would of course take longer. So a pretty decent tool kit, sawhorses and a work bench for far less than $1000. There is a run through on you tube showing a smaller version of the bench in use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhn-PAfEW4 There are no vises on the bench to keep costs down but they could be added later. Give it a watch Christian!

[Christian Thompson]

The idea behind The Naked Woodworker is to help people get started in woodworking with a minimum outlay of cash. In the first segment we buy the tools at a MWTCA tool meet, nothing staged. We go over what to look for and what to avoid and you see what the tools actually cost. We then refurbish the tools for use in the second half of the video which is about using the tools to build a pair of sawhorses and an English joiners bench. Our actual cost was $571 for all of the tools, a grinder and Oneway tool rest and the materials for the bench and sawhorses. All of the work was done in less than three days, a person with less experience would of course take longer. So a pretty decent tool kit, sawhorses and a work bench for far less than $1000. There is a run through on you tube showing a smaller version of the bench in use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhn-PAfEW4 There are no vises on the bench to keep costs down but they could be added later. Give it a watch Christian!

Thanks Mike - I watched some of the youtube video and it already answered a few questions that have come up with my my latest project (planing the table top for a coffee table). I've been fighting my small makeshift bench and the ability to clamp a board to the back of the bench as a planing stop would be a huge improvement. So maybe I need to move the bench project up in the queue :-).

[Dave Cullen]

Most of my hand planes I inherited from my father, who inherited them from his father. They're pre WWII vintage and work very well. Maintenance is a wipe with WD-40 once in a while and some paste wax. A can of Johnson's lasts a looong time.

My chisels are plastic handled Fuller and Stanley. Carbon steel gets very sharp. My Arkansas stones are 30+ years old and still work well. The only investment in hand tools I've made in 25 years is a honing guide - my eyes and dexterity aren't what they used to be.

I have a small collection of hand saws too, also inherited, but they don't get much use - I'm just not very good with them.

Hand tools don't have to be a major investment... unless you want them to be.

[Simon MacGowen]

I had read about someone starting out sharpening and the advice went immediately to three high dollar water stones.
Jim

With the exception of Paul Sellers, from Rob Cosman to Chris Schwarz to all the "boutique" tool makers and many others (including magazine editors) would sing praises on high-end things and how much difference a premium tool would make your (woodworking) life easier and better. To some extent, yes, but not the full extent they want you to believe in. They like to say it's expensive or it's not cheap, BUT....

The line is getting blurred between real woodworking and consumerism in the hype of product marketing and the race for the newest tool. I often see one of these Knew saws in magazines (not as an ad) as if one must have one of those to cut dovetails. What happened to the $20 fret saw or coping saw? They are not stylish enough!

The truth is -- may be many don't want to admit it -- woodworking is expensive unless you have set your mind on doing it the other way. There's a reason why many refer to taking up woodworking as going down the slippery slope.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Simon

I have issues with many approaches on the Internet ... because inevitably someone is trying to convince you that their way is the only way. Most rational people know that there are many ways to skin a cat.

I like that Paul Sellers is encouraging entry level woodworkers, and that he does so by demonstrating that a basic tool set up is all that is needed. What he does not add is that this is OK to start, and that some may want to move on as tastes mature and abilities grow and income is freed up. What he says - which is reflected in the rigid attitude of his followers - is that anything else is a waste of money.

Both Rob Cosman and Chris Schwarz are there - like Paul Sellers - to sell you something. Nothing wrong with that. Many have gained from their experience and knowledge. Even on the forums I do not mind that someone has a strong opinion and a desire to communicate what they have learned. That's what the forums are all about. We learn from one another. What does irk me is when they try and sell something by denigrading anyone who does it differently. I lose all interest when it comes down to "my way is the only way" and this message is communicated with a lack of respect for others.

This applies to choice of tools as well. There is a difference between "this plane is better than that plane" and "you cannot produce good work if you do not own this plane". One statement is evaluating a tool, while the other is limiting the tool user. The same applies to guilt-evoking attitudes such as "you cannot be a serious woodworker if you enjoy the tools you use". There will always be those who live vicariously and those who live by example. I will not dictate which is right and which is wrong. There is neither.

I started with few tools, and they were cheap. I could say that it is 40 years on and I have earned the right to nice tools. But that is a nonsense rationalisation. I enjoy building and using tools almost as much as I enjoy building furniture. Full stop. Should I - and others - feel guilty that I own nice tools? At the same time should someone be made to feel that they are less equal because they do not have nice tools? That is just as horrible, just as bigoted.

I do not have an answer. I just say to someone starting out that the priority is that they learn to work the wood (and there are different ways they may do so), make something that they can be proud of, and hopefully that the process will bring satisfaction and esteem. You do not need many tools to do this. Before the Internet and forums came along we had fewer ways of making comparisons and becoming aware of the range of tools on offer. Perhaps it was simpler then and the goals were clearer. Many now are influenced by those wanting to be accepted by their particular peer group, and choices are made on that basis. That is where problems begin.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[cody michael]

I've been slowly adding hand tools over the last couple of years. I'm frugal. I don't by many things I don't need and I try to buy good quality tools that will last. I have a mix of new and vintage tools. I started with sandpaper on glass to sharpen but soon switched to diamond plates with a waterstone to finish.

I don't have everything I need to do basic prep work and joinery but I'm fairly close. It's mostly specialized tools like shoulder planes that I'm missing. Even so, I rarely need to consider using a power router. I could probably stand to acquire a #7 or #8, but I use a power jointer and thickness planer, so I don't really need one.

Counting every hand tool and supply I've bought, I have not yet spent $1000. Every tool works well and none have required more than a couple of dollars to rehab.

One can spend a lot on premium boutique tools but it's not necessary.

I have a no 7 I am looking to sell...

[James Pallas]

Derek, I think that your post covers it. I think the objective is to work wood and enjoy it. The tool you have in your hand is the best tool for the job, for you, at that moment.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

What he does not add is that this is OK to start, and that some may want to move on as tastes mature and abilities grow and income is freed up. What he says - which is reflected in the rigid attitude of his followers - is that anything else is a waste of money.

Both Rob Cosman and Chris Schwarz are there - like Paul Sellers - to sell you something. Nothing wrong with that. Many have gained from their experience and knowledge.
Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,

You have many valid points. However, if we look at the traditional woodworking scene, the imbalance dominantly favors those who advocate fancy, expensive and new (and newer) products. These people are influential not only to beginners but also to many seasoned woodworkers (followers or whatever they should be called). When you have a master in XXX say you can cut XXX better, easy, cleaner and whatnot with this $300 XXX, those who do not possess the skill would think that's what they need. I am not saying higher priced tools are necessarily not worth their prices (prices are as good as people are willing to pay); I am saying if someone hasn't acquired the skill to cut plumb or chisel to the line, no fancy saws or chisels in the world will get them the airtight dovetails or tenons.

The emphasis, I believe, should be on techniques and skills and not tools. When I open a magazine page, all I see is the newest, most stylish and brand name planes,, chisels, etc. (and needless to say, a few pages down or up, one can see the color ads on those new tools or an editor's "review" about how nice the new saw or marking tool or plane feels great in your hand).

This is not to say we should avoid premium tools and products; I think we should support them as long as those of us who can afford them and who admire their high standards. But in the last ten years, many seem to have been worshiping quality tools as being the same as quality skill & work. They aren't.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

I think that is partially due to the format we're working with. It's hard to show a skill online, best you can do is show photos of the skills results or videos of work in process. Both of which are not perfect formats for showing skills, but often times they do get you part of the way there.

the tools are fun to talk about, and the skills often are a product of thousands of hours in the workshop. Incredibly important, but not as exciting of a conversation.

I also think that if you take the time to be an expert on each tool that you purchase, it will slow your consumption and greatly increase your results.

Put your extra money toward lumber :)

[Frederick Skelly]

I think that is partially due to the format we're working with. It's hard to show a skill online, best you can do is show photos of the skills results or videos of work in process. Both of which are not perfect formats for showing skills, but often times they do get you part of the way there.

the tools are fun to talk about, and the skills often are a product of thousands of hours in the workshop. Incredibly important, but not as exciting of a conversation.

Good point, Brian. I hadn't considered that before.
Fred

[Joe A Faulkner]

I've never considered wood working an expensive hobby, primarily because I've built so much cabinetry and furniture for the house over the past three decades. I remember spending $600 on a compound, sliding miter saw a few years back that I used to trim out a room edition on our house and to build a large, built-in pantry. The pantry alone would have retailed for over $1,500 even though it had less than $400 worth of lumber and hardware in it. This past year my son built a nice cherry bookcase that he will likely have for the rest of his life. The lumber cost was $100. A similar shelf retails for around $500 from one "made to order" builder on the internet. Without the investment in the tools and the skills to make these items, I'm not sure that my family would have the types of furnishings that we have.

There was a time when I certainly had some discretionary time to make things, and little or no discretionary funds to spend, so investing in tools and quality lumber allowed us to have an increased quality of furnishings at a reduced cash outlay. Of course it helped that I enjoyed making the projects. Practical, every day items like beds, book shelves, picture frames, cabinets, chests and tables resulted in most of my woodworking tools paying for themselves. Like many, they were accumulated slowly over the years which makes it feel much more affordable than buying it all at once.

[Christian Thompson]

Hi Derek,

You have many valid points. However, if we look at the traditional woodworking scene, the imbalance dominantly favors those who advocate fancy, expensive and new (and newer) products. These people are influential not only to beginners but also to many seasoned woodworkers (followers or whatever they should be called). When you have a master in XXX say you can cut XXX better, easy, cleaner and whatnot with this $300 XXX, those who do not possess the skill would think that's what they need. I am not saying higher priced tools are necessarily not worth their prices (prices are as good as people are willing to pay); I am saying if someone hasn't acquired the skill to cut plumb or chisel to the line, no fancy saws or chisels in the world will get them the airtight dovetails or tenons.

The emphasis, I believe, should be on techniques and skills and not tools. When I open a magazine page, all I see is the newest, most stylish and brand name planes,, chisels, etc. (and needless to say, a few pages down or up, one can see the color ads on those new tools or an editor's "review" about how nice the new saw or marking tool or plane feels great in your hand).

This is not to say we should avoid premium tools and products; I think we should support them as long as those of us who can afford them and who admire their high standards. But in the last ten years, many seem to have been worshiping quality tools as being the same as quality skill & work. They aren't.

Simon

I agree with what you are saying about the emphasis being on skills. I think someone already used a golf analogy on this thread, but I had a golf instructor say to never buy new / fancy equipment in order to get better. Just get clubs that fits and spend your money on practice, lessons, playing, etc... Then he drove home the point by saying a pro golfer could wipe the floor with us all with a set of 1970s women's clubs :).

That being said, I really haven't felt like any of the big name woodworking instructors have tried to sell me much (other than content and instruction). Most everything I've seen has suggested getting good quality tools vs. recommending any particular brand. It seems like all of them have at least one "how to restore an old plane" instruction video. Maybe I've just filtered the rest out. I agree with getting started inexpensively, but there is something to be said about not wasting too much money on junk.

[Jim Koepke]

However, if we look at the traditional woodworking scene, the imbalance dominantly favors those who advocate fancy, expensive and new (and newer) products.

I think with a lot of programs it comes down to who ever pays to for the program production gets to have their tools in front of the camera.

On the Woodwright's shop new tools are a rarity. There is another show I see at times that seems little more than a long commercial for a particular brand.

Tim Allen had a comedy show that had part of the "comic" set up was the program within the program relationship with a tool company.

There is one "woodworking educator" who has his own brand of tools and has taken some heat from folks for constantly trying to push his tools on people.

jtk

[Brian Thornock]

Actually, it's much more expensive than the OP stated. The real scenario goes like this:

- Thinking of hand planes
- Find Brese, Holtey, or similar planes
- Decide one must have, but they are too expensive
- Decide to build
- Buy materials for building a single infill
- Buy metal cutting bandsaw to help with tedious hack sawing
- Buy metal lathe for turning thumb screws
- Need more precision, buy milling machine
- Finally build a nice infill
- Flatten board

Note that the above was not exactly how it played out for me, but not all that far from. Because of building 3 infill shoulder planes, I went for the bandsaw, then got a lathe and milling machine through serendipity, and now am enjoying turning out 5-10 infills a year just because I can :)

[James Pallas]

Brian You made me choke on my water. Not just a slippery slope but black ice for you! Be careful it doesn't sound like you've hit dry pavement yet.
Jim

[Brian Thornock]

I was under the impression there was no pavement. I have built something like 10 since the beginning of the year and my "want to build" list is at least another 12...

[Prashun Patel]

I've never heard anyone say (for long) hand tools are cheaper than power tools.

It's easily as expensive as power tool woodworking.

The only valid reasons I've heard are:
- Enjoyment or philosophy
- Reduction of noise and dust
- Safety
- Space

[Warren Mickley]

I've never heard anyone say (for long) hand tools are cheaper than power tools.

It's easily as expensive as power tool woodworking.

The only valid reasons I've heard are:
- Enjoyment or philosophy
- Reduction of noise and dust
- Safety
- Space
I have been saying that hand tools are cheaper for forty years. I implied it earlier in this thread. Hand tools are much much cheaper. Five bench planes: $104. Two hand saws: $7. Four back saws: $30. Bench chisels: $82. Frankly, if you want to do fine work, you end up buying hand tools anyway.

[Daniel Rode]

In my experience, hand tools are MUCH less expensive. I could buy every hand tool on my wish list and not reach the cost of a table saw. I think Warren is dead on that any fine work will require at least some hand tools anyway.

I owned a couple planes, chisels and hand saws when I was a power tool woodworker. I couldn't get them to work very well, but I know I needed them.

[Kees Heiden]

Agree again. I've been hoarding a bunch of tools for a couple of years, because they were so cheap. I would usually allow myself to indulge a bit once a month, after the paycheck came in. Quickly I had too much stuff and couldn't follow up fast enough with restoring, sharpening etc. So I quit that habbit and have sold quite a lot allready.

One thing that can add up quickly are moulding planes. But good routerbits aren't cheap either. And because I haven't use mouldings much in the things I made, it wasn't too bad.

[paul cottingham]

My collection of hand planes, bought over the course of 10 years is less than $2 grand. If you removed some of the planes that are nice to have, but not necessary, that cost drops significantly. Hand saws around 1500 necessary ones, even new would be less than a grand. Im lucky, many of my saws were given to me "i dont know what to do with this....you want it?" So my costs for saws was very minimal. A good brace, used, is cheap. Chisels ( which you need for either kind of woodworking) needn't be expensive at all, Narex ones are fantastic for the money.

that comes to the cost of a decent table saw doesn't it?

Honestly, I'm a little like the Schwarz here; i think hand tool work is augmented nicely with a planer, bandsaw, and mortiser. Not needed, but nice for avoiding the real grunt work like ripping long lumber doing a ton of mortises or reducing the thickness of lumber. I can do all those things, but i find little joy in them, and no small amount of pain.

[Prashun Patel]

I stand corrected.

I do believe in this day and age, though, it's too tempting to keep buying just one more saw or plane in hopes that it makes us better with less effort. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's my temptation, and I'm projecting that urge onto others.

For those traditionally trained, or with the appropriate discipline, I'm sure it's entirely possible to do much more with less. But for the person just starting out, the access to information (misinformation? too much information?) gives me the impression that I can always improve my skill with more 'stuff'.

It was presumptuous of to say 'never heard...'

[Daniel Rode]

I don't want to sound like I'm somehow against the idea of owning expensive tools. I'm not. Sometimes, I fall in love with a tool myself.

People derive satisfaction from many aspects of tools and woodworking. From restoring to collecting to just using them. Regarding hand tools, I follow my own path. I'm mostly focused on working wood, tools are primarily an means to and end for me and I unapologetically use a combination of machines and hand tools.

It's one thing to discuss potential costs of tools but no one should have to defend buying nice tools :)

[Christopher Charles]

I have both very good hand tools and a couple of nice power tools. I started out with vintage hand tools, but a watershed moment for me was the purchase of a LN 60 1/2 block plane because it showed me what a well-tuned tool can do. Note that I grew up in the dawn of the internet and didn't have access to much info beyond FW and early forums.

I'll suggest that there is a common progression from desire for top end power tools to quality hand tools to the recognition that much can be done with much less or vintage _once_ sufficient skills have accumulated. This can be seen in Chris S's writing across the years. A similar thing happens to fishermen: lots of fish, lots of big fish, content to stand in a river :) I say this as a recovering gear head in both realms.

A final analogy, in the birding world, one can spend a lot of money on glass. I own decent glass, but by far the best money spent was $20 on some CDs that taught a good method to learn bird songs because i learned skills to hear birds before seeing them (~90% of birds are found by ear rather than eye). I feel the same way about having bought some good stones and the time i've spent developing basic hand tool skill with very modest chisels.


Thus, in my view, the value in asking this kind of question is as a way of assessing whether one is putting one's time and resources in the right direction. Neither a new table saw or plane will, by itself, make one a better woodworker, but both are useful (and often necessary) to accomplish many things.

Best,
C

[paul cottingham]

I stand corrected.

I do believe in this day and age, though, it's too tempting to keep buying just one more saw or plane in hopes that it makes us better with less effort. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's my temptation, and I'm projecting that urge onto others.

For those traditionally trained, or with the appropriate discipline, I'm sure it's entirely possible to do much more with less. But for the person just starting out, the access to information (misinformation? too much information?) gives me the impression that I can always improve my skill with more 'stuff'.

It was presumptuous of to say 'never heard...'

Sorry Prashun, my comment isn't aimed at you. I over bought as well, and have been weeding down my extras. I now own a pared down set: a bevel up jointer, bu jack, a no. 4, a no. 51/2 (a gift!) a plow, a Skew rabbet, a large router plane and LVs medium router plane, and a large and medium shoulder. I could easily get by without the medium shoulder and perhaps without the medium router.

Even new, from LV, you could get off the ground with a very serviceable set of planes and saws for less than $1500. Marking tools and the like are not included in my list; you need them for any kind of woodworking.

of course i have some other planes people gave me, a coach-makers plane, a Millers falls 14 (gorgeous hunk of metal!) and a couple others. But you could easily make nice furniture without the jointer, the bu jack, the no.4 and the medium router.

as for saws, i mainly use my hybrid sash saw from bad axe, my 2 carcass saws from Lv and my LV dovetail saw. I also use my strange 4 1/2 point rip, my 8 point rip, 8 point crosscut, and 12 point crosscut. I wouldn't mind a 12point rip, and strangely don't have one amongst my huge collection of gifted saws.

So you don't need much. Even if you find the Schwarz insufferable, his "Anarchists Toolchest" is an excellent read; especially for his tool list, and the philosophy behind the choices.