Sharpening idea that has not been discussed here! new breed of oil stones...

[Matthew N. Masail]

:) ok, that's a big title. but I mean every bit of it! Yesterday and today brought quite a remarkable discovery for me. it started when I
watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCo1_fozD0 I highly recommend watching it.

What struck me the most about the video was that he literally made a thirsty 1k clay type king stone into a no-soak stone, yet he says it still works just as it did before. today by any chance of coincidence my wife mentioned that some kitchen knives had gotten dull. so I reached for my Sigma Select II 1200 which is what I use for kitchen knives. I paused with impatience looking for something to soak it in when it hit me (!) this would be the perfect stone for me to experiment with this on.

(A quick note about the 1.2k sigma, it is such a fantastic stone, cuts like a ceramic spyderco, stays amazingly flat yet it's not a pain to lap it. it is consistent, fine and fast and doesn't release slurry so the edge of it is already very well defined needing just a little refinement. you can make the jump to a 1micron stone from this sigma without trying hard at all. yet I never use it for tools because it need soaking, water won't sit on the surface. it's only negative is that it loads, but it still cuts very well that way so it doesn't really bother me anymore, I can do a lot of work before cleaning it with a small dmt diamond hone)

So I just grabbed the baby oil and started sharpening! it worked fine! the stone absorbed the oil much slower than water but it still dried up so I had to keep adding oil. I kept adding oil and it works just great. I got so excited that I took a few chisels to it. I think this might become my go-to stone, it just works so well and now it's no-soak too. water doesn't suck in either, I can still use water, but I prefer oil. I imagine it will get more and more soaked as I use it, but I did soak it face down in some baby oil for a while.

So really, this to me is like finding a large perfect vintage washita! (as in the sigma + loaded strop will easily make a VERY sharp edge, pops hairs)

and one can get them in other grits..... lol

I was just about to order a sigma select II 10K, but now I'm thinking maybe I'll get one of the harder sigma ceramics and turn it into an oil stone :) another thing is that with oil stones loading doesn't seem to bother me nearly as much as with water stone, maybe it's just Psychological.. . I have choseras, which are fantastic and I wouldn't do this to them for many reasons, but the oil stone set-up is becoming more and more appealing to me. I really enjoy my Arkensas stones too, but this sigma 1.2 oil stone is just so capable practical.

so what do you guys think?

[george wilson]

Don't be ridiculous!!!! BREAD is NOT made of oil stones!!!:):):) It would wear your teeth down to the stumps !!

[Jim Koepke]

Don't be ridiculous!!!! BREAD is NOT made of oil stones!!!:):):) It would wear your teeth down to the stumps !!

That made me chuckle on the first read. English is such a difficult language with all the spelling anomalies even for those of us with English as a first language can't always agree on things like color and colour.

jtk

[george wilson]

A cause of early death among the ancient Egyptians(and probably others,too),was the presence of stone grit in their bread. It did wear their teeth down to the nerves and caused infection.

[Steve Voigt]

so what do you guys think?

I think that I would be very careful about recommending this until I knew what the long term effects would be. As far as I know, waterstone manufacturers recommend water and discourage oil on their stones. From Dieter Schmid's website (http://www.fine-tools.com/G10005.html): "Waterstones do require water to perform their magic! Never use oil, for it will ruin your stone."

In general, large manufacturers (and even some small ones) do hundreds of hours of testing on their products. The manufacturer's recommendations should be taken seriously; I know people often disregard them with impunity, but people often come to regret that decision. If waterstone makers don't recommend oil, then I would be cautious, and I would be more inclined to listen to them than to some random guy on youtube.

[Harold Burrell]

Don't be ridiculous!!!! BREAD is NOT made of oil stones!!!:):):) It would wear your teeth down to the stumps !!

Awww, man...

I was going to try and sharpen a chisel on a slice.

Perhaps...if I let it sit out for awhile and get all crusty, then maybe...hmmm

[Warren Mickley]

320812(1398)

[Matthew N. Masail]

Warren can you translate that ? Steve, that is why u would never do this to a chosera, but the sigma is close to indestructible according to Stu. Fine-Tools tend to make statements to cover them selfs, like they say that cerax stones must not be soaked too long, but Stu confirmed that they are soak tolerable as well as the fact that I had tei in water for 6 months and no issue. I tend to listen to logic and experience, so far my experience is that this acually works, but I still need to use it long term to see if there is any issue but I don't expect there to be.

As for my spelling (-: well.. I only lived in an English speaking country until age 6, so I think I'm excused

[Harold Burrell]

320812(1398)


Warren can you translate that ?

I'm not sure...but I think it is talking about sharpening with "wet manure".

Might work. Never tried.

[george wilson]

It seems to say that water makes the tools sharper than the use of oil.

Harold: Be careful what you say,after that 11 page bit on the new duck,from which at least one casualty resulted!!!

Matthew: Your English is better than my Israeli !! And,spell check had to help me there.

[Harold Burrell]

Harold: Be careful what you say,after that 11 page bit on the new duck,from which at least one casualty resulted!!!



Wait...what??? George? Are you saying that you don't want to lose me???

Why...that's the nicest thing you have ever said to me! **sniff**

;)

[Jim Koepke]

Awww, man...

I was going to try and sharpen a chisel on a slice.

Perhaps...if I let it sit out for awhile and get all crusty, then maybe...hmmm

No, no, no... Wait until it turns green then it is excellent for stropping. :eek:

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I think it is talking about sharpening with "wet manure".

That was my thought after the first read. Then the old English "manere" became manner.

My guess is few of us would have been able to survive if we were dropped into a 14th through 19th century world.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Loading and glazing over is going to happen quickly. Made that mistake years ago by accident. Sat in the bottom of the box at work until tossed out.
jim

[Matthew N. Masail]

Matthew: Your English is better than my Israeli !! And,spell check had to help me there.

Well considering "Israeli" is not a language (-:

I'm glad everyone is having fun ...

[Matthew N. Masail]

Loading and glazing over is going to happen quickly. Made that mistake years ago by accident. Sat in the bottom of the box at work until tossed out.
jim

Jim, which stone was it? Did it glaze after a while or as soon as you used it with oil? Did you lap the surface to remove glazing ?

[James Pallas]

It was long ago so I'm not sure of the brand but I believe it was a king s-3. The oil went deep into the stone kerosene I think because that was what we used on oil stones. It did not take long til it was either gooey or slick or both. Not worth the effort to use.
Jim

[Matthew N. Masail]

I wonder if it was because of the kerosene, since whatever you use will stay in the stone as opposed to just on it.

[george wilson]

Not a language? Shows you how bad I am at your language,Matthew!!

Ah,yes,Harold. Some had no luck in the new duck!

[Harold Burrell]

Ah,yes,Harold. Some had no luck in the new duck!

And THAT s_____...uh, stinks! ;)

[Matthew N. Masail]

Lol Hebrew...I thought you were kidding!

[John Kananis]

I'm curious which industry he refers to when he states "industry standard".

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm curious which industry he refers to when he states "industry standard".

Machinists, Cnc machines and so on use a mixture of oil and water as a cutting fluid.

[Warren Mickley]

320812(1398)

I did not notice Matthew's request for "translation" earlier.
And there are diverse manner of whetstones, and some need oil and some need water for to whet, but oil makes it smooth and water makes the edge fully sharp as Isadore says in his book chapter 3. [waterstones sharpen and oilstones polish]

This text is a 1398 translation into English from a Latin text that was written in England in 1240. They quote Isadore who lived 540-636. Isadore consolidated ancient knowledge into an encyclopedia. The idea that some need oil and some need water has been around a good long while.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thank Warren. I am not trying in any way to dispute that some stones need only water and might be ruined by oil. Only to say that maybe there are some water stones that can be used successfully with oil. So far the sigma 1.2 is a formidable oil stone, which for me makes it much more useful. If there is any interest what so ever, I'll report back later down the road. I thought the topic is very interesting, especially to those who like using oilstones, but folks here seem reluctant or uninterested to explore the topic.

[george wilson]

Senior moment,Matthew. My wife is Jewish,and I did know better. Just getting too old!!:)

When I was the musical instrument maker in Williamsburg,I tried many stones. I used a frictionite razor stone with light oil for years. Incorrect,but it didn't plug up,and worked fine. I never liked water stones because they weren't handy in the small shop,and seemed to always manage to get bits of rust on my tools no matter how clean I wiped them. A stone and a small squirt can of oil worked just fine. The Frictionite was not a soft or porous stone compared to most,so the oil did not ever glaze it. I wouldn't try that on the usual water stones,though.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I guess I'll just have to see how the sigma reacts over time, it's very hard but does soak up some oil. Does mineral oil change over time?

[george wilson]

I have a squirt can of Starrett Instrument oil,which is just mineral oil. It's tip is open,and it is years old. No change I can see or smell.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

From memory (passing conversations a few years ago now), Philip Marcou has long used oil (I think kero) on King waterstones. I recall thinking that he was crazy when he mentioned this, and was not inclined to test it out. Maybe not so crazy ...?

You like the Sigma 1200? I used it after the Shapton 1000, and returned to the Shapton, which cuts faster. It may be the difference between a 1000 and 1200.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Kananis]

Machinists, Cnc machines and so on use a mixture of oil and water as a cutting fluid.

Fair enough but I don't think (or at least I didn't get the impression) that he was referring to machinery but to hand techniques. Meh, just sounds contrived.

EDIT: But who am I to say, he may be some type of professional just wish he had given clarity to the statement; at least he donated his time to producing the piece and it does seem that he believes what he's saying...

[george wilson]

"A mixture of water and oil": Being also a machinist,I'd comment here that this means the use of water soluble cutting oil. An entirely different thing from ordinary oil. It just rinses away.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Matthew

From memory (passing conversations a few years ago now), Philip Marcou has long used oil (I think kero) on King waterstones. I recall thinking that he was crazy when he mentioned this, and was not inclined to test it out. Maybe not so crazy ...?

You like the Sigma 1200? I used it after the Shapton 1000, and returned to the Shapton, which cuts faster. It may be the difference between a 1000 and 1200.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,


I do like the sigma, but IMO it's not competing with the Shapton 1k
for the same spot. The Shapton is an aggressive 1k, I agree it's the best. If I wanted a more
relaxed smooth and consistent stone, the chosera800 is it, and about the same as the Shapton in speed. The
sigma on the other hand is much finer cutting, and it cuts very cleanly. If I use a Shapton I'd like a another stone between it and a a 8-10k, but the sigma makes the jump to a 10k no problem. You could even use the sigma as a single stone setup if your good with a strop ( I would use 1-3micron diamond paste on the strop in that case). So really not comparable with a 1k Shapton, if anyone reading this is looking for a fast 1k, the Shapton is that kind if stone.

[Pat Barry]

Using oil on a ceramic stone didn't sound like a good idea off hand but there wasn't much resistance to the idea expressed previously. I did a search and found this webpage which addresses the subject (http://www.fine-tools.com/G10005.html). Not sure how it ruins the stone.

Edit - here is a link to the manufacturer's notes about the Sigma Select stone
(http://www.saicom.info/english/)

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks for the link Pat. Fine tools also say "never leave Japanese water stones permenantly in water". But we know many stones are fine in water long term, as I said before, they aim to cover their tosh. The sigma website says nothing about it harming the stone

[william watts]

Using oil on a ceramic stone didn't sound like a good idea off hand but there wasn't much resistance to the idea expressed previously. I did a search and found this webpage which addresses the subject (http://www.fine-tools.com/G10005.html). Not sure how it ruins the stone.

Edit - here is a link to the manufacturer's notes about the Sigma Select stone
(http://www.saicom.info/english/)
I use water stones and a jig with a wheel as guide to sharpen. The wheel started making squeaking sounds, so I put a drop of oil on the axel, no more than a drop. Never the less some worked its way on to the wheel and spread to the stone where the honing action spread a very even thin layer of oil into the stone. The stone never cut again tried cleaning with no success. Finally just threw the stone away. Now I keep any oil far away from my sharpening station and just put up with that squeaking wheel.

Whats the reason anyone would want to use oil on a water stone?

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi William, thanks for chiming in. I think it's important to mention which stone is was, because there are many many different type nowdays. without knowing which stone it was the comment is left unhelpful.

I have no doubts a shapton or a chosera would respond poorly. the sigma 1.2 works just as well with oil as it did with water however it is still absorbing oil and not quite as splash and go as I'd like. I might boil it with some soap and salt and see if it goes back to working well with water. at the moment it has enough oil in it that water will just sit on the surface and glide off. truth is a fine india of good arkensas stone are just as good as water stones are so there is no real need for the conversion... but it is interesting.

[Reinis Kanders]

I like the last line in that link:
"We hope to spread Waterstone as a Samurai spirit to everyone around the world."

I am no Samurai, but I think I will try it with oil. I just ordered TFJ sigma package since I actually needed some Atoma stones for flattening my oilstones.
When they come I will try the oil on the waterstone since I do not have space to mess with water, winter is coming, and I am intrigued by waterstones:)



Using oil on a ceramic stone didn't sound like a good idea off hand but there wasn't much resistance to the idea expressed previously. I did a search and found this webpage which addresses the subject (http://www.fine-tools.com/G10005.html). Not sure how it ruins the stone.

Edit - here is a link to the manufacturer's notes about the Sigma Select stone
(http://www.saicom.info/english/)

[Matthew N. Masail]

Reinis I Imagin the ceramic 6k and 13k in the special set would work well, as they don't absorb nearly as much as the 1.2k does. Stu also mentions they are immune to most household chemicals and boiling and freezing and so... I don't think you could ruin them. however please experiment carefully, and use only mineral oil, no drying oils or WD-40 that might turn sticky over time. all the success stories so far report using mineral oil like baby oil. perhaps also send Stu a message about it, I would hate for it to turn out negatively for you! and of course.... please update with you results! I found the 6k sigma ceramic loads more than I liked and was a little sticky to use... oil might solve both of those issues tough!

[Reinis Kanders]

Thanks for the advice. I ordered 16 oz bottle of Norton honing oil to soak it in. Do you think that would be ok, or should I stick with the mineral oil?
Once the stones come I will give an update. I normally use WD40 on my washita and arkansas stones, but I always wipe them off after use so far no stickiness. Also simple green cleans surface oil pretty well.


Reinis I Imagin the ceramic 6k and 13k in the special set would work well, as they don't absorb nearly as much as the 1.2k does. Stu also mentions they are immune to most household chemicals and boiling and freezing and so... I don't think you could ruin them. however please experiment carefully, and use only mineral oil, no drying oils or WD-40 that might turn sticky over time. all the success stories so far report using mineral oil like baby oil. perhaps also send Stu a message about it, I would hate for it to turn out negatively for you! and of course.... please update with you results! I found the 6k sigma ceramic loads more than I liked and was a little sticky to use... oil might solve both of those issues tough!

[Allan Speers]

Using oil on a ceramic stone didn't sound like a good idea off hand but there wasn't much resistance to the idea expressed previously. I did a search and found this webpage which addresses the subject (http://www.fine-tools.com/G10005.html). Not sure how it ruins the stone.

Edit - here is a link to the manufacturer's notes about the Sigma Select stone
(http://www.saicom.info/english/)

I'll take a guess:


When you use a ceramic stone, there must be some place for the swarth to go, otherwise it would raise your blade slightly off the stone. With water, the swarth can go down into the stone's pores slightly. (until you rinse it.) Oil is thick and thus probably cloggs the pores, giving the swarth nowhere to go. Most oils will eventually harden, making things even worse. In fact, semi-hardened oil is very sticky, so the cut steel partical probably stick to it, creating a non-flat surface.

I am just guessing, but I'd put good money on this being correct.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks for the advice. I ordered 16 oz bottle of Norton honing oil to soak it in. Do you think that would be ok, or should I stick with the mineral oil?
Once the stones come I will give an update. I normally use WD40 on my washita and arkansas stones, but I always wipe them off after use so far no stickiness. Also simple green cleans surface oil pretty well.

The thing with water stones is that they are pores so whatever you put on them wil stay in them at least a little in the top layer even if you wipe them off. For that reason I'd only use something that I know won't turn sticky or harden. I have no clue what's in Norton's honing oil but WD-40 mightget sticky. I would stick wth mineral oil until you can verify the norton stuff. Purely guessing the norton oil might be fine.

I have a old norton medium India that dosent cut well at all even after lapping, and it smells strongly like some kind of gasoline, I suspect that might be the issue but I'll have to manage to truly clean it in order to know. A new India is like 20$ so...

[Tony Zaffuto]

IIRC from a prior discussion here, the Nortion is a more refined mineral oil (whatever more refined means!). I would suggest looking up the flash point of mineral oil, and heating the oil about 10% below the flash point, and then soaking the stone in it. The porosity will draw the heated oil deeper.

[william watts]

Hi William, thanks for chiming in. I think it's important to mention which stone is was, because there are many many different type nowdays. without knowing which stone it was the comment is left unhelpful.

I have no doubts a shapton or a chosera would respond poorly. the sigma 1.2 works just as well with oil as it did with water however it is still absorbing oil and not quite as splash and go as I'd like. I might boil it with some soap and salt and see if it goes back to working well with water. at the moment it has enough oil in it that water will just sit on the surface and glide off. truth is a fine india of good arkensas stone are just as good as water stones are so there is no real need for the conversion... but it is interesting.
I know the stone was not expensive and was ordered from one of the major on-line retailers several years ago, also I have never owned a stone finer than 8k grit. I am not fond of sharpening and put it off as long as possible. Seem to be people here that really enjoy it.