Please, Hammer, don't hurt 'em (A3-31 set up)

[Prashun Patel]

My A3-31 arrived yesterday!

I'm trying to attach 1/2" stem casters to the bottom.

Am debating how to get the casters on. Felder says I shouldn't lay it on it's back, but I can't see another way to easily drill the necessary holes and install the wheels. They recommend levering up the sides one at a time with 2x4's, but the rear base is not accessible from the top; in order to get enough clearance to drill from underneath, I'd need to lever it up a LOT. That feels dangerous.

Any ideas???

[Erik Loza]

Lift it with an engine hoist?

Erik

[Pat Barry]

I'm surprised it didn't come with casters. Since it didn't I wonder if its even intended by the manufacturer to ever have casters.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, Erik.
I don't have one. I do have a forklift, but the fork spread is too wide to get under the cut out in the base.

I really just want to tip this thing on its back. Can't see why that'd be an issue but Felder did not recommend that. But I also think other people here have casters on their Hammers so I'm sure the Felder way isn't the only one. Intuitively, levering doesn't feel right to me.

[Scott DelPorte]

I put my jointer on a dolly made with two thicknesses of 3/4 plywood instead of using the mobility kit. It works great for me, but adds another 1.5 inches to the height which you may or may not like.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Home-made A-frame (2x4s), a chain-hoist/come-along (or some ratchet straps?). This could never go wrong? Right?:eek:

Please don't work under it without some sort of cribbing to back up the lift.

Or, you could use the fork-lift I didn't know you had....

[Prashun Patel]

I'm using the Great Lakes style casters.

[ian maybury]

Hi Prashun. pardon if this sounds a bit uncompromising, but I have the A3 410 with the separate tables/old hinge and have done the testing - and TBH i wouldn't recommend fitting casters on one.

I know it's often done, and most makers presumably say 'no problem' rather than risk losing a sale - which perhaps explains why everybody is so blase about the subject. The reality though (and i doubt it's peculiar to Hammer) is that the chassis likely isn't rigid enough to do so without disturbing the settings. Planer thicknessers are very strong as a beam (if each end was rested on something, and the planer used as a bridge between them - due to the deep sides) - but they have minimal torsional or twisting resistance along the lengthwise axis because the sides are linked mostly by just the patform that carries the lifting table. Plus a few lightweight cross pieces.

Try placing a Oneway gauge near the corner of one table near the cutter, with the foot of the dial gauge bridging to rest on lip/corner of the opposite table. Then get a bar or an adjustable foot or something under one corner on the other side, ease it up and down a bit - and see what the gauge says about what's happening to the relative heights of the tables. Or try it off one table and with the foot of the gauge resting on the cutters/knives. Try lifting one corner by a few mm, and watch how the other three feet remain firmly planted on the floor as a result of this twisting. If the chassis was rigid then the opposite foot would lift off the ground, and the machine rock.

Failing a trial just work through the thought experiment - and figure out what happens to the previously horizontal alignment of a fairly flat machine table supported on four points off the chassis if the latter twists

The issue that follows is that unless your floors are microscopically flat moving these machines about will have significant effects on knife and table heights. Which can only be a bummer if you've just spent hours getting the thing accurately set up, and know from testing that even a few thou in the wrong place is enough to mess some cuts up. This in terms of starting it jointing slightly concave, slapping, cutting differently at different points across the tables etc.

The A3 410 (2011) has holes for adjustable feet at the corners, so unless something has changed (and maybe it has) you shouldn't have to drill holes. My advice though is to fit adjustable feet, place it where it's going to live, level the machine up accurately, then dial in the adjustments. Then never move it again. Or at least draw around the feet with an indelible pen so you can return it to precisely the same position for use should an emergency truly have required it to be moved...

[Prashun Patel]

Very interesting, Ian. I have to be able to move it. Not every day, but often enough. I have committed to this path.

If I notice results outside of my acceptable tolerance, I'll look to leveling as the first culprit, tho, thanks to you!

Prashun

[John TenEyck]

That has always been my thought on all large machines. You set them in place, level them in both planes, and then get everything adjusted. I know many folks have all their machines on mobile bases, but it just makes no sense to me from an alignment standpoint. Most machines are just not rigid enough to stay in alignment when their base is twisted.

John

[John Gornall]

My A3 31 came with 2 bolts in the parts bag which go in 2 holes in the back of the machine for the second fork of a pallet jack or fork lift.

The forks would be set with about 12 inches between them.

"Harry" shows these bolts in the Hammer youtube video on how to get the A3 31 off it's pallet - but doesn't show them installed. They are mentioned in the manual.

[John Gornall]

When I picked my A3 31 at the dealer he had a stack of Shopfox extra heavy duty mobile bases at less than a hundred dollars - decided to try one and am pleased with it. It's rated at 1300 pounds and has cast iron wheels so no flat spots. It can be configured many different ways. I assembled with fixed wheels to the left and swivel wheels to the right - no casters at my feet in operation. I installed the fixed wheels in line with the long axis of the machine to move it down the driveway, between my bench and tool cabinet and into position. Then I turned the fixed casters 90 degrees in line with the short axis of the machine as I only need to move out from the wall and back. This base is unique in having 8 holes for each caster to change orientation. You can also change orientation of assembly to place the casters to sides or front and back as needed. With the machine on it's pallet in the driveway I lifted it with an engine hoist (25 bucks from the tool rental 10 mins away) and dropped onto the mobile base. With no help I had it off my truck, on the base and in position in the shop in half an hour. Plus half an hour to assemble the Shopfox base which involves a lot of nuts and bolts.

And the Shopfox base only raises the machine 5/8"

[David Kumm]

I would be careful and only lift as the manufacturer recommends or with a direct from underneath method. Machines today are not made with over engineered bases like they used to be. Jointer Planers in particular can get out of whack if stresses are placed on the base other than what was intended. Bases are made to primarily handle the vertical load so racking the base or stressing it from the side isn't a chance I would take. Doesn't make the machine bad, just one you need to pay attention to when moving or lifting. Dave

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, David. I found the bolts John mentioned; at first I did not see them. I will try to pallet jack it high enough to get under there...

[mreza Salav]

One time I wanted to disassemble my minimax J/P I had to lift it up about 12" or so. The method I did it was to progressively (and alternatively) lift the front/back and place a 2x4 under each side, then next side, and keep going. To make sure you have a stable stack of 2x4's you have to make a square of 2x4's, i.e. once you put two 2x4's under the base then place two 2x4s at the two ends of those 2x4s (making a square) and so on. As long as you can lift one side 3" each time you can make a square stack of 2x4's and lift the machine enough to drill and place the wheels underneath.

[Scott Allen27]

I put my CU300 on casters - I rented a narrow fork pallet jack from sunbelt - Worked like a charm and took 15 minutes to put on all 4 (the feet were already prepared for stem casters). I think it would probably work for the A3 as well.

https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/detail/1222/0440002/pallet-truck-narrow/#

[Prashun Patel]

I threaded the two bolts and was able to forklift it up enough to get underneath (gulp) to work on it. The holes are I believe 12mm, which is too small for my stem. I need to drill them out to 1/2".

[Scott DelPorte]

In the past I have moved my A3 41-a on its casters, but had never noticed a change in cut accuracy, so when I read comments on the sensitivity of the machine set up to movement, I went out to my shop for a 30 second experiment.

I disconnected power, put a dial indicator on the machine to measure relative movement between the infeed table and cutter, and grabbed the clamping handles and rolled the machine around. I couldn't detect any movement at all on the dial indicator as I rolled it around. So to make it harder, I rolled one wheel up on a 1/16 inch shim to see if the twisting would have an effect. Again, the dial did not move at all. Finally, I put a board under the dolly, and lifted one end of the machine up by about an inch with the lever as close to the caster as I could. Again no movement.

I am not sure if clamping the machine base to the dolly has made the structure more rigid, but I am coming to the conclusion for this machine, its safe to roll it around on casters.

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[Prashun Patel]

I was able to forklift it up and attach the casters.

Sorry for the rotated pix. Using the bolts through the back of the case, I was able to get the forklift blades to balance the machine up while I worked on it.

The front holes were indeed too small for the 1/2" stems. I reamed them larger. For the back holes, I drilled in steps. Took a little while but worked as planned. The machine just fit around and under the obstacles in my shop space.

It's in it's resting place. Now I just have to get a plug for it and set it up.

Can't wait!!!

The action on these casters (as with my bandsaw) is wonderful. When the stops are up, they roll so easily in any direction. When down, they're very stable. Mine were about $40/pc.

[Victor Robinson]

I was able to forklift it up and attach the casters.

Sorry for the rotated pix. Using the bolts through the back of the case, I was able to get the forklift blades to balance the machine up while I worked on it.

The front holes were indeed too small for the 1/2" stems. I reamed them larger. For the back holes, I drilled in steps. Took a little while but worked as planned. The machine just fit around and under the obstacles in my shop space.

It's in it's resting place. Now I just have to get a plug for it and set it up.

Can't wait!!!

The action on these casters (as with my bandsaw) is wonderful. When the stops are up, they roll so easily in any direction. When down, they're very stable. Mine were about $40/pc.

Nicely done! I have those casters to make my lathe occasionally mobile and they are awesome.

Man, I want that J/P!! And that forklift! Congratulations, looking forward to hearing your experiences when you get to making some shavings with this thing.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Prashun, you are lucky you have access to a fork lift. I used car jacks, 4x4, 2x4 to lift the J/P up high enough to access the underside with a drill + bit combination. It was a slow, deliberate process, but it worked out OK. Congrats on the new tool. It's a sweet machine.

[Prashun Patel]

That's the benefit of having a shop in a warehouse. Of course, the downside is that everything smells like fragrance!!!

I'm lucky that the aromas never pass the top layer of wood, so as long as I plane or sand at home, things are odor-free...

Next question:

I am trying to figure out the dust collection. On my previous jointer, I just let the chips collect in a bin (I got the idea from Mike Pekovitch on Shop Talk). My DW735 planer had an ejection fan that did an awesome job of exhausting into its own dust bag. So, I didn't really use DC with either.

Let's see if that works here...

[Reinis Kanders]

That awesome planer needs a prettier resting spot:)

[David Nelson1]

You might regret the casters after a bit it's going to be a pain locking them, or least it was for me. I put the mobility kit on it has its limitations but after you figure out those I have found it worked well. If you still want to use casters I would recommend these (http://www.fsindustries.com/more_info/gdr_60f_leveling_ratchet_casters/gdr_60f_leveling_ratchet_casters.shtml) if you have no problem bending down.

320819

LOL I just went back to your pictures........... Why don't I tell you to do what you did already? Gotta love it! Just don't over tighten them in either direction. I had one fail got jammed of course I didn't know that till after I put the kit on seems that I was going to the same caster everytime.

[Prashun Patel]

never above some free validation. pile it on!

[ian maybury]

Hi Scott. I'd have been surprised if you had seen just a little movement, never mind nothing at all. Meant politely and constructively - something may be different. Perhaps in our set ups, or your later version of the machine. Which definitely has a more substantial table hinge, and may link the tables together too which could have quite an effect. I can't locate a parts manual for it to check the detail. Nipping up the table locks would make a big difference too, because it would force the tables to fully move with the chassis. Leaving them open would mean the tables wouldn't have to twist with it.

I can't guarantee that i didn't do something daft in my test, and can report it only as a single set of observations which don't amount to proof. It certainly convinced me in respect of my own machine though. The response seemed crystal clear, and repeated with the gauge in slightly different locations.

It isn't a criticism of the machine - it's more or less to be expected of a steel cabinet of that shape (which is pretty standard) with hefty cast iron tables on top.

Testing close to the centre line of the tables (ref your pic?) would likely see the movement reduced close to zero, as my issue was clearly about the cabinet twisting - which in turn (presuming the locks are done up) twists/rotates the tables in opposite directions. i.e. the maximum movement is to be expected at the outer corners of the edges adjacent to the cutter. i.e. one goes up in response to the twist, one goes down. They likely remain pretty much at the same level at the centre line. Bridging table to table at a corner as i did initially will likely deliver twice the movement of table to knives (your pic?) - because both tables will likely move, and in opposite directions if the supports twist.

My situation was different to yours, in that the machine was sitting on four levelling pads with threaded studs - secured with locknuts tightened each side of the hole provided in the bracket/plate at each corner. Photos below - one from 2014 and the close up tonight - you may be able to see the dotted red lines on the floor around the close up pad. These were put there to permit the machine to be returned to precisely the same spot if it ever had to be moved to handle e.g. very long stock - but it hasn't moved in the year. The boards were the final test pieces run after the machine was dialled in to joint straight in 2014.

The problem of the table movement came to notice by accident - the Oneway gauge was positioned as described when i realised i hadn't checked the levelling of the machine. So i parked a level on the table and proceeded to (at that point unthinkingly) adjust the nuts on the pad at the LH infeed corner.

The response on the gauge was instant, and not just a thou or two. Swinging the spanner through maybe half a turn caused a significant and proportional swing in the dial gauge - it tracked movement of the spanner.

It surprised me to the extent that i just returned the nut to its original location and did up the locknut and left well alone as i'd just put a lot of time into getting the knife and table heights dialled in. I actually used the dial gauge to tell me when i was back to the original setting. i.e. i turned the nut back until the needle returned to the original zero…..



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[Jamie Buxton]

I did some testing today with my first-generation A3-31 (built in '99). I don't have a gauge, but I do have a straightedge. I set it on the outfeed table, with a small gap -- like .02" -- above the infeed table. (The infeed table was clamped down. Didn't think to loosen it.) I used a 2x4 as a lever under a corner of the chassis, and looked for changes in that gap. I'm sure I could see .01", and I'm pretty sure I could see .005". I tried with the straightedge running corner to corner on the tables, and then the other corner to corner too. I pried on each of the front corners of the chassis. I didn't see any change in the gap.

Ian's right: a completely rigid chassis should teeter-totter on my shop floor, which is not flat. But I've never noticed my machine teetering. The only explanation I can concoct is that the front feet of my machine are rubber. (They're what came with the machine.) They're pretty stiff, but maybe they offer just enough compliance to prevent rocking.

[ian maybury]

It's a bit of an odd one Jamie. It's bothering Scott, and me too. I could have got it wrong, but would be surprised as i worked through it pretty carefully. There's quite a few variables which could have quite an influence on the amount the tables deflect (the chassis may mostly just move underneath the tables if the the latter are not locked down on to it at the usual four points) - i briefly described some of them in the post above. Stuff like doing up the table locks, measuring table to table, and making sure measurements are at the outside corners and not towards the centre.

My F3 shaper is rigid enough to teeter like you describe when one foot is backed up - but the cabinet is basically a closed box apart from the significantly smaller door opening in one end. Unlike the A 3 41. The feet in both cases are rigid nylon or something in my case - no flexibility.

I'm not sure what to say at this point - other than that it doesn't bother me because i don't move my machine.

I'm guilty of hijacking Prashun's thread, and should probably back off now. (sorry Prashun)

[Scott DelPorte]

Hi Jamie, Ian and I were speculating in PM as to the differences. I can roll the dolly on the floor, and on areas with a little dip under one wheel, it teeters and the dial indicator still doesn't move. We were speculating whether fixing the base to the plywood dolly has something to do with it. The four sided base is connected to the top, so the structure acts like a box with one side (the bottom) open. By screwing the open base of the cabinet to a 1.5" thick plywood dolly, it "closes the box" and makes it stiffer as a structure. Thats a thought anyway.

[ian maybury]

A very short one. It looks like the cabinet on your A3 410A (jointer only model) Scott as you mentoned is fully boxed in on both ends - unlike on the planer thicknesser version. Likely quite a bit stiffer, much like my F3 in fact. Thanks for coming in too Jamie. Depending on how it shakes out the narrower 12in machine might be a bit stiffer in torsion too......

[Rod Sheridan]

Give up on the casters and use it as a semi-live skid...............Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

I thought I'd post this because I had a devil of a time finding actual pix or details about this.

The A3-31 dust port is 120mm. My dc is 4".

Based on other recommendations, I used a 4" Fernco adapter. Even though it's labeled as 4" to 4", one side is flared. It fits snugly over the port. The trick is you have to cut out the hub. Mine sliced easily with a utility knife. It's a great fit.

The other end fits the 4" quick connect pretty easily. You can snug down the screw clamp to provide a friction fit.

Anyway, hope this helps future owners!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Prashun, hopefully you'll have enough airflow with a 4 inch hose.

I used a 5" metal elbow, crimped it a bit for a nice friction fit.

Hope you enjoy your new machine...........Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

I hear you. But for now it is what it is. I'll take light passes ;)

[John Huds0n]

This is what I use on my MiniMax

It will slip into a 5" hose and go over the 120 mm port


321014

[Prashun Patel]

Got the height gauge calibrated today, and jointed my first pieces. It's very smooth, and quiet (I have the Silent cutter block). I really like the Euro style blade guard.

I have a question about feeding through the thickness planer, though. The feed rollers seem to grab the piece and lift it before slamming it down onto the feed table. This doesn't feel right. I'm lining up flat and shouldn't have this issue.

Also, I don't quite understand that gear down at the bottom. It's to engage the rollers, right? Because in one position they spin, in the other, they are stationary.

I gotta say, the manual on this machine is bad. The diagrams and instructions just don't tell you how knobs are supposed to be pushed or pulled or what their purpose is. It's cryptic. There weren't even instructions on how to install and calibrate the depth handle. I had to figure that out myself.

Oh well, the rest of the owners must be much more intuitive than I.

[David Nelson1]

For the lever on the planer, in is on. Try to remember to disengage when your not using the planer, no need in the extra wear and tear. As far as the board slap goes feed it level. Mine does the same thing if I get a bit lazy. How is the snip on yours? I can barely see it till I go to finish but it cleans up with little effort.

[Prashun Patel]

A little snipey. I am trying my darndest to feed level but it slaps still...

[mreza Salav]

Infeed roller adjustment?!
Yes the European machinary (at least the ones I have) could learn a thing or two about manuals. They should look up to Sawstop.

[David Wong]

Wax the thicknesser bed. This will reduce the tendency of the feed roller grabbing the board.

[Rod Sheridan]

Got the height gauge calibrated today, and jointed my first pieces. It's very smooth, and quiet (I have the Silent cutter block). I really like the Euro style blade guard.

I have a question about feeding through the thickness planer, though. The feed rollers seem to grab the piece and lift it before slamming it down onto the feed table. This doesn't feel right. I'm lining up flat and shouldn't have this issue. Try waxing the bed, this is normal, nothing wrong with it.

Also, I don't quite understand that gear down at the bottom. It's to engage the rollers, right? Because in one position they spin, in the other, they are stationary. Yes, that's the feed clutch, leave it disengaged when jointing.

I gotta say, the manual on this machine is bad. The diagrams and instructions just don't tell you how knobs are supposed to be pushed or pulled or what their purpose is. It's cryptic. There weren't even instructions on how to install and calibrate the depth handle. I had to figure that out myself.The manual is bad, however on the Felder site you'll find videos in English on how to assemble your machine.

Oh well, the rest of the owners must be much more intuitive than I.

Hi Prashun, please see my answers in the body of the post.......Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

I relieved some of the slap by waxing the bed. Thanks. Works acceptably now.

I find that working with a combo machine really changes the way I must work.

I have to think much more about ganging planing and jointing operations. It's possible to and fairly quick to switch between modes, but the planing height has to be completely reset. Fortunately, the mechanical height gauge works very well. But previously, I would work by thicknessing 'down a smidge' until all marks were gone. With this machine I can't really do that. I have to decide the thickness, then plane it to that. On my old planer, I could feed a board in and lower the carriage until the rollers started feeding the piece. This way I could waste a minimal amount of material. This machine doesn't seem to work this way. raising the table until the wood contacts the spinning rollers doesn't cause the piece to feed. It's not a big deal, just a shift in how I work. I'm measuring a lot more on this latest project than before.

I got my gauge in metric. I actually like that. Even after a short time, it's becoming intuitive to think in 10s and 100s instead of 1/4's and 1/8's.

I hooked a 3/4hp portable dust collector with 20u bag to this machine. The reason is that it generates little dust, but many chips. So, hooking it up to the heavy Thien (won't you come home, Phil Baby?) separator that my saws connect to means painfully frequent empties. The portable collector gets most of the chips and the rest are easily swept out during changeovers. It works very well. Caveat: on deeper thickness passes, sub-par dust collection means you can get minor scallops on the surface where I suppose chips are not evacuated between the cutter and the wood. But on thin passes, this is not an issue, and certainly not when jointing.

I don't much like the clamps that hold the jointing tables down. I find it a hard to engage them quickly. I suppose this will get easier with time.

Far and away, the best feature of this machine is the Silent Cutter Block. It's so quiet. I did not realize how much stress the noise of my previous machines caused subconsciously. The finish quality is fantastic. I do find that grain direction can matter on thicker cuts, but on thin cuts, it's so brainless. I also notice the action is different with this machine than on my previous jointer. This block almost seems to suck the piece down to the table; it doesn't require a great deal of pressure. On my previous machine, if I didn't engage pressure fore and aft, I could easily get chatter. But this could be due to the sharpness of these new cutters.

Last, I will say that I never thought I'd appreciate having 12" jointing capacity. I was wrong. Jointing an 8" board for the first time - and on one easy pass - today was a revelation.

I like the caster configuration. In fact, I don't even lock mine down. Wedges under the front wheels are enough to stop any lateral movement during heavier jointing. For lighter, shorter jointing (which is 90% of my work) I don't even have to lock them down; the machine does not move.

[Rod Sheridan]

Prashun, glad to hear you're enjoying your machine.

Yes, it's a lot easier in metric on that planer. I always just set the planer to the desired thickness, it was how I was taught to work.

Have fun............Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

Update:

I grow more and more in love with this machine with each day.

That thumping went away. I think I just learned how to feed the boards in. Because of the way the kickback teeth engage, you really have to feed it in flat and with a little pressure.

I have been using a portable 3/4" dc with it and I really like this configuration. It's convenient on a couple levels: no hose changes; doesn't overload my regular dust collection bag, which is a little more effort to switch out. 3/4 isn't really enough to pull all the chips out, so I do get minor scallops on deeper cuts, but even with perfect DC, the spiral head leaves very minor scallops that require post processing anyway.

I find that switching between planing and jointing operations isn't as cumbersome or time consuming as I feared. The space savings and upgrade in quality outweighs that (for me) by many orders of magnitude.

One little thing that I've come to love is the blade guard. It's so quick to set and adjust, I find it easier to work with than the porkchop on my previous jointer.

[Jeff Monson]

One little thing that I've come to love is the blade guard. It's so quick to set and adjust, I find it easier to work with than the porkchop on my previous jointer.

Congrats on the new machine, you will never regret owning it. I too find the euro guard much easier to work with, just makes more sense to me after working with both.

BTW are you looking for extension tables?

[John Sanford]

In the past I have moved my A3 41-a on its casters, but had never noticed a change in cut accuracy, so when I read comments on the sensitivity of the machine set up to movement, I went out to my shop for a 30 second experiment.

I am not sure if clamping the machine base to the dolly has made the structure more rigid, but I am coming to the conclusion for this machine, its safe to roll it around on casters.
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Scott,

That's an interesting setup you've got there. So you just lock the casters when it's time to work? You're not worrying about getting the machine firmly planted?

[glenn bradley]

never above some free validation. pile it on!

I'll add some. I somehow lost track of this thread before the "Baby's home" post. The results are Awesome.