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Victor Robinson
09-03-2015, 2:02 PM
I love working on my house. And I actually enjoy remodeling projects.

But I hate, hate dealing with subcontractors. Every time I do I hate it even more.

I think it's worse when you've educated yourself about the particular trade and task at hand. I've found the majority of these guys [in my area] cut corners and are ethically dubious. Plenty of lies about what's safe and what's not, extremely high marked up material costs, refusal to do work that doesn't feel like it's worth their time but should be part of the job/bid, etc. Hey, I get running a business. I'm not an unreasonable guy. I'm just looking for honesty, integrity, and just a little bit of value to make me feel ok about parting with hard-earned money. That's asking for too much right?

Add to that an extremely corrupt building department and you can't trust anyone except yourself to make sure things are safe and to code for your family.

I think part of the issue is location. I'd describe the vast majority of subs that do residential work here to be "fast and loose," and they prey on homeowners that have zero know-how and flush pockets. They are not starving for work AT ALL but the quality of their work is not very good. And the guys that are really good end up doing mostly commercial work and have sky-high residential prices - they'll take your job if you make it worth their while. Example bid $6k for an extremely basic $2k plumbing rough-in. Over the last 10 years, I've dealt with highly recommended and reviewed "top-rated" electricians, HVAC, and plumbers in the area. I've found ONE plumber I'd call back for a future job and zero electricians. On every major job I've ended up being more informed about the code than the person I hired. On every major job I've ended up catching the guy in some kind of switcheroo or lie that affects the overall quality of the job or the safety of it. And I'm not hiring unlicensed people off Craigslist or anything - we're talking some of the most well-known businesses in the area.

Last 5-star electrician I called in to bid a job? High on meth during the bid.

Last plumbing rough-in? Inspector showed up drunk, passed the work because he knew the plumber, didn't catch the code violations we knew were there. Then I had to ask them to fix the stuff that wasn't to code and that the inspector didn't bother to catch.

My highly reviewed HVAC guy who's on the job at the moment? Caught him trying to install a single-stage furnace when the agreed upon model is a dual-stage. Guess he thought the model numbers would look similar enough and dummy homeowner wouldn't know any better or check. Could have been an honest mistake but I doubt that given how he has been on the rest of the job. Uh, and what's with the attitude like you're doing me a favor after I caught the "mistake?" Did you not bid the job and did I not agree to your price?

Protecting the home while they work on it? Forget about it.

But when I've dealt with subs in the suburbs at other properties, they are much better. There's actually a decent shot at getting someone who at least seems to be a stand-up person. Fair price, honesty, good advice, and gasp, even a PLEASANT experience. There seems to be a more balanced mix of good folks and shady ones.

I'm just venting after this frustrating HVAC experience. It boggles my mind how I can hand over so much cash to someone and still have a frustrating experience, and have that be the norm rather than the exception. I know there are lots of guys in the various trades on this forum and this isn't directed at you, as my experiences seem to be related to the deterioration of the trades within my particular city. I'm just at a loss for how hard it has gotten to find good people around here. And my wife wonders where I get an endless energy to educate myself on DIY projects that only a crazy person would DIY. It isn't even about saving money anymore like it used to be when we were younger and cash-strapped.

Larry Frank
09-03-2015, 7:07 PM
When I have had work done, I make certain the contract is very specific. I watch everything and photo everything. I also insist on a hold back. Lastly, I take the time to check references carefully. And, I am not real nice about mistakes and stop the job when an issue comes up.
.

Brian Elfert
09-03-2015, 7:48 PM
The guy who remodeled my house did a pretty darn good job. The only thing I have trouble with is the cheap exterior doors he used. If had told me what he planned to use I would have paid the $300 or $400 more for better doors. All of the other materials he used were top notch.

He is residing my garage next week. He doesn't even want any money up front.

Shawn Pixley
09-03-2015, 8:48 PM
I hear you. I do most of my own work because I know it will be better than most of which I can hire.

Chris Padilla
09-03-2015, 8:54 PM
I know a good, reputable guy if you need tile work done, Victor. :)

I have a good landscape guy, too, but I gotta say, all the trades seems to lack communication skills and are the worse about not showing up when they say they will.

Even my landscaper who I love said he'll be back Monday...didn't show...Tuesday...didn't show and I finally text him and then he show Wed and is supposed to show today (we'll see when I get home). He does great work at a good price but man...sometimes.... :)

Greg R Bradley
09-03-2015, 9:05 PM
Just get off your rear and do it yourself. You are not going to find anyone worth paying to do anything in California. Worthless trash or shockingly expensive, take your pick.

Brian Elfert
09-03-2015, 9:22 PM
Kinda hard to do it yourself if you don't have the knowledge or skills to do the work. I rented a small Bobcat once to grade my yard. I had never used one in my life and I couldn't get the ground flat to save my life. A hydraulic hose burst about an hour into it. (Burst hose not my fault.) I took it back to the rental place and they only charged me a small portion of the original cost since I got some work out of it.

I ended up hiring a guy with a Bobcat to do the work because he could actually get the ground flat and level.

Mark Blatter
09-03-2015, 11:26 PM
I know a good, reputable guy if you need tile work done, Victor. :)

I have a good landscape guy, too, but I gotta say, all the trades seems to lack communication skills and are the worse about not showing up when they say they will.

Even my landscaper who I love said he'll be back Monday...didn't show...Tuesday...didn't show and I finally text him and then he show Wed and is supposed to show today (we'll see when I get home). He does great work at a good price but man...sometimes.... :)


I had a great electrician in Montana, but like your landscaper, could not always be relied upon to show up when he said he would. He would commit to being there at 8 on Monday and it would take me to Wed to track him down. Come to find out he had been on the slopes snowboarding. I came to realize that if it snowed, he simply would not show up as promised. It was worth it putting up with him because he was just so good.

Julie Moriarty
09-04-2015, 1:02 AM
I worked in the trades for 34 years and, while I hate to admit it, there were a lot of hacks. One guy who worked for me couldn't even tell if something looked out of level. And he didn't think to use one when running pipe.

I arrived on a job once, the first journeyman on the job, and the foreman had installed (6) 1-1/4" conduits, coming out of a switchgear, with manufactured 900 elbows on the end of each, supposedly to run them along the bottom of the ceiling bar joists. All were at a different height. All he had to do was cut the straight pipes the same length, but he couldn't figure that out. I gently asked him if I could start the runs from scratch. There was no way I was going to continue what he started.

I have a hundred more of those stories.

Some people get into the trades because they think they can make good money or it's something their father did, but many don't have the mechanical aptitude required to do their job well. But it's like that in every profession.

Victor Robinson
09-04-2015, 1:39 AM
I know a good, reputable guy if you need tile work done, Victor. :)

I have a good landscape guy, too, but I gotta say, all the trades seems to lack communication skills and are the worse about not showing up when they say they will.

Even my landscaper who I love said he'll be back Monday...didn't show...Tuesday...didn't show and I finally text him and then he show Wed and is supposed to show today (we'll see when I get home). He does great work at a good price but man...sometimes.... :)

Too bad tile work is something I'm reasonably comfortable and confident with!

Yeah the flakiness can definitely be an issue, and I've found that more true with the landscapers than anyone else. Otherwise communication and timeliness has been pretty good around here in my experience. The thing is, in the city, with such a high concentration of younger people who live on their smartphones (and hence Yelp and other review sites), if you can't communicate well or show up on time (basically if you don't have your stuff together), you'll be toast. I think that has led to the "clever" folks thriving - yes, they are good on email and show up when they say they will, which seems enough to earn them glowing reviews.

Unfortunately, if you are able to actually evaluate the work even slightly...

Victor Robinson
09-04-2015, 1:47 AM
Just get off your rear and do it yourself. You are not going to find anyone worth paying to do anything in California. Worthless trash or shockingly expensive, take your pick.

I think this is what I'm saying, lol, and I generally do. There are just some things that are too much (or too dangerous) to try to figure out. Case in point - my furnace system replacement. New ducts, the whole works. Now most of HVAC work isn't particularly complicated from what I can tell - my guy didn't do the specialized calculations or testing that I know HVAC techs elsewhere do. Here they can get away with it because of our ridiculously moderate climate and poorly insulated homes.

I've noticed the information needed to DIY HVAC properly is much harder to find than other types of work. That's probably a good thing as there are lots of ways to do major damage to oneself, loved ones, and property with HVAC, but I think the flip side is the "professionals" in the field can more easily swindle. I would bet money HVAC fraud has the highest rate amongst all types of contractor fraud.

Victor Robinson
09-04-2015, 1:51 AM
Kinda hard to do it yourself if you don't have the knowledge or skills to do the work. I rented a small Bobcat once to grade my yard. I had never used one in my life and I couldn't get the ground flat to save my life. A hydraulic hose burst about an hour into it. (Burst hose not my fault.) I took it back to the rental place and they only charged me a small portion of the original cost since I got some work out of it.

I ended up hiring a guy with a Bobcat to do the work because he could actually get the ground flat and level.

Yeah, I hear ya. My backyard (steep hill) needs to be regraded with proper retaining walls (though each individual wall would still be below the height requiring engineering). I mean I can shovel dirt, but as a whole it's a job that's very much beyond my capabilities, both mentally and physically. And if I even tried to drive a Bobcat there, I'd end up just rolling it down the hill into the house!

Victor Robinson
09-04-2015, 2:02 AM
I worked in the trades for 34 years and, while I hate to admit it, there were a lot of hacks. One guy who worked for me couldn't even tell if something looked out of level. And he didn't think to use one when running pipe.

I arrived on a job once, the first journeyman on the job, and the foreman had installed (6) 1-1/4" conduits, coming out of a switchgear, with manufactured 900 elbows on the end of each, supposedly to run them along the bottom of the ceiling bar joists. All were at a different height. All he had to do was cut the straight pipes the same length, but he couldn't figure that out. I gently asked him if I could start the runs from scratch. There was no way I was going to continue what he started.

I have a hundred more of those stories.

Some people get into the trades because they think they can make good money or it's something their father did, but many don't have the mechanical aptitude required to do their job well. But it's like that in every profession.

There's also very little incentive to do a quality job when you've got jobs lined up out the wazoo. I mean that's great, I'm glad things are going well for these guys. But where's the pride for a crisp, clean, job?

And I imagine it's frustrating for the good tradespeople too, because they should be able to look around and say, hey, my integrity, customer service, attention to detail, etc. has me doing a heck of a lot better than these hacks. But around here, I'm not sure that is true. Plenty of work for everyone, including the hacks. Every guy is booked just as solid as the next and they are all making a ton of money.

And I feel there are really very few "masters" of the trade out there that the average homeowner gets to interact with. You know, people who love teaching (even a curious homeowner), stay up to date on their field, etc. I see lots of them on various internet forums and they are a wonderful source of information, but man, I'd love to actually work with such a unicorn one day!

Victor Robinson
09-04-2015, 2:11 AM
On a positive note, I've got an electrician coming out next week to do some work. He's NOT from the city.

I can't explain to you what a difference he was compared to the 6 electricians that bid before him. I gave him the job on the spot and told him I was hiring him simply because of the way he talked to me (it didn't hurt that his price was fair and evaluation of the work was much more correct, and when he didn't know something off the top of his head, just said he'd have to check the tables). I was so overjoyed with him I was almost in tears. Seriously. Because he wasn't OBVIOUSLY shady and appeared to actually want to help me. These are apparently the levels to which my standards for falling in love with a tradesperson have dropped.

But he ain't from the city.

Robert Engel
09-04-2015, 7:06 AM
Wow, sounds like you've really had some bad luck there.
We've all been through it, one degree or another I guess, mostly because a)we take pride in what we do and expect others in a trade to do the same, and b)we have more general knowledge than the public and know when we are being worked.

I remember one of the best carpenters I've ever had work for me was a life long alcoholic living down the street with his mother. The guy was in his 50's permanently had drivers license revoked. I used to go pick him up. After working a couple jobs for me over the course of 4 or 5 months, one day he asked for $50 in between paydays. I advanced him the money that was the last I saw of him. He went to another town 60 miles away and was working in a bar, of all places.

My brother used to build high end homes and got tied in with a contractor who knew who all the best subs were around. That's a good way to find them, but like my brother found out, you'll have to pay.

Brian Elfert
09-04-2015, 7:53 AM
Yeah the flakiness can definitely be an issue, and I've found that more true with the landscapers than anyone else. Otherwise communication and timeliness has been pretty good around here in my experience. The thing is, in the city, with such a high concentration of younger people who live on their smartphones (and hence Yelp and other review sites), if you can't communicate well or show up on time (basically if you don't have your stuff together), you'll be toast. I think that has led to the "clever" folks thriving - yes, they are good on email and show up when they say they will, which seems enough to earn them glowing reviews.


In rural areas around where I live you can't depend on any contractor to show up during hunting season. It would be one thing if they just said I will be on vacation for two weeks to go hunting. They say they will show up, but they get up in the morning and decide today is a good day to go hunting and don't show up and don't bother to tell anyone.

A Scout camp I do a lot of work with has this issue with contractors all the time. They do most construction work in the Fall after camp season, but contractors flake out once hunting season starts.

Al Launier
09-04-2015, 8:57 AM
Adding to your previous comments about the variations in pricing by contractors. I rently had a Kohler 20KW Standby Whole House Generator System installed. His price, $8,600, for the "total" installation, including arrangements for installing the propane tanks(3), & getting all the required permits, and then arranging for the Kohler product warranty. Plus, he is the go-to guy for any future problems that might need to be resolved. A great guy to work with.

His competitors priced their generator installation at $12,200 & $12,400. Plus they would not stand behind the electricians work in terms of quality of installation, defective parts, etc, and I would have had to make the all permit arrangements.

Tom M King
09-04-2015, 4:53 PM
It sounds like it hasn't changed much since I built my first house in 1974. I haven't used a subcontractor since then. In 1975, I started doing everything myself, and have been ever since with just two helpers.

I get calls every week asking me who they can get to do this or that. Every time I have to say I have no idea, because I don't keep up with who does what around here. I don't even know any subcontractors names.

Stan Calow
09-04-2015, 5:31 PM
HVAC is the one thing I will purchase an extended warranty for. Has saved me from being sold a new unit, when all I needed was a $30 part.

Moses Yoder
09-05-2015, 5:31 AM
How do you know the guy who came to bid a job was high on meth? Is this just an assumption based on what looked like symptoms or what? Did you call the police and have him arrested? I think most people who get into business do so thinking they are going to make a lot of money. Most people are not businessmen, something I had to learn about myself. I always did good quality work but it was never done in a reasonable amount of time. I work best when I am told I have to punch the clock at X or I am fired. There are about 6 people in our shop of 50 woodworkers who actually know woodworking.

Patrick Walsh
09-05-2015, 6:20 AM
Im a carpenter. I work for a builder that builds custom high end homes in the 4 million and up range.

Over the years i have also worked for myself. Like a poster above mentioned some people are not business men and do better punching a clock. Thats me. Case in point my recent accusation of a Felder AD941 when a Hammer Machine would had been just as good.

Where i am in Boston and or just outside i would say 1 out of ever 20 guys could give a rats behind about what he is doing. The trades are primarily comprised of guys whom best option as was the trades as they where not cut out for school or running a business them self. Most have no real interest in what they do other than screwing off all day and still collecting a respectable check they can kinda feed a family on. These days it seems most guys wife is the the bread winner and the husbands income is padding more than anything. This adds to the dynamic of these guys just work as they have no incentive as most have plenty of $$$$ on account of the wife...

Generally they take no pride in there work and are just looking to make it through a day, a week a year.

Now in the world of uber custom homes there is that guy with unbelievable talent. He is the the 1 outa 20. Not only is extremely talented, a great business man, booked solid and makes his own prices. Oh and slow as sloth. Most cases this guy ends up pushing a pencil long term and hiring and managing a bunch of hacks as thats how the story goes.

slow is a good thing with quality most of the time. At least when it relates to carpentry. Not so much to making money ;)

glenn bradley
09-05-2015, 12:17 PM
Just get off your rear and do it yourself. You are not going to find anyone worth paying to do anything in California. Worthless trash or shockingly expensive, take your pick.

Do I detect that my brother is disgruntled by recent experience ;). Unfortunately this is generally true today in many fields. I was just saying the other day that if someone would do a decent job of mowing lawns, was reliable and delivered a consistent level of work they would have more work than they could stand. I'm sure this is true of other trades as well since the majority of quality craftsman seem to have retired and left their broom-boys behind to call themselves craftsmen. :mad:

I have others do things that I know I just plain stink at or lack a specific skillset for. Beyond that, I will take 5 times as long to paint a bathroom just to get a decent job; not that it takes that long . . . it just takes ME that long :D

Brian Ashton
09-05-2015, 12:55 PM
Coming from the other side of things, haven't been at it too long only 35 years, and being known for my good work I can only say is the customers are by far what causes good craftsmen to leave and do something else... Just something to think about, but I doubt you will. You're all for the most part cheap to a fault, to the point that it's not worth the effort to bid on 80% of the jobs. It's a vicious cycle and the customer is where the problem originates. Yes I could do it for cheaper but the hell why should I. Why should I live on poverty wages so you can be happy and brag to your friends that you got such a good job at such a cheap price. You want it cheap so you get the hacks who do it cheap... And then there's the armchair experts... If you're so knowledgable and good at it then do it your bloody self. Oh that's right, when it comes to actually doing anything, you're work is complete crap - seen it a thousand times. I've had to bite my tongue hard and not say what I really thought of their work when they proudly boast about it to me - absolute garbage. You got what you paid for so quit your complaining.

Rick Potter
09-05-2015, 12:57 PM
I am very fortunate apparently. I have a guy I have known for 40 years. He is in his late 60's and still works hard every day. He has been a carpenter since the early '60's, and has two sons who have been doing it 20 years. One son is a contractor, and knows decent guys for most trades. This family built my workshop, my large addition on the house, and is at this moment they are working on my daughters place in the mountains.

Inspectors have commented on how good the work is, and it is very nice to be able to tell them what we want, and know it will be done right. They refuse to do it any other way. As an example, when I switched from a tile roof to architectural comp, they took almost four days straightening out the roof after it was stripped. The tile had sway backed it badly, and they even had to raise one corner of the garage roof a couple inches to get it right. After replacing the fascia with straight pieces, the comp went on over two layers of 30# felt, and the roof is beautifully straight.

Roger Feeley
09-06-2015, 9:43 AM
I had a wonderful electrician when I lived in Kansas City, KS. The guy was chief electrician at a local power plant and was certified to do anything from outlets to giant bus bars. He also had three girls in college and needed extra money. He wanted to moonlight and I appreciated his expertise. He wired my shop up for me. He put in a 100A load center and a great big cutoff switch and I did the wiring downstream from that. My rule was (and is) that the main box belongs to the pros and the little box belongs to me. He really liked that separation between pro and weekend warrior. When we moved, he came over and disconnected it for me and installed it in the next house.

Since then, we have had good contractors and poor but no horror stories like I'm reading here. High on meth? Yikes!

Stan Calow
09-06-2015, 11:43 AM
All businesses are not good businessmen either. I had a broken 1/2" water line pouring into the basement, I could not shut of. It was a Saturday afternoon. I called four of the largest plumbing companies in the metro area, all of who advertised 24/7 emergency services. Two of them said they could come out in a week. The third (whose ad said "serving the entire metro area") said they do not work in my zip code. The fourth came in a hour and fixed the problem.

David Cramer
09-06-2015, 7:51 PM
Wow, I couldn't agree more Brian, spot on.

From cabinets to countertops to full gut jobs, I could write a book. I now enter the potential customers house and ask them are they looking for the cheapest price or to get it done right?
If they say cheapest, I politely say "Have a good day" and walk away. When they say, "no, but I still want a bid", I say "no thanks, you just want it to compare to the other guy to be sure that you got the lowest bid". I am easy going, believe it or not, but yes I actually say that and contrary to what most here "probably" think, I feel good about it and only respond that way based on experience.

And...when someone says that my bid was high, I say "no, my bid was fair, the other bid was too low and there's a reason for that".
Brian is right, I could do it for cheaper, but why should I?

Boy oh boy, I wish I lived in California. I give customers a 15 minute window and am never late. If anything comes up, they get a call "before" to let them know, and that's rare.

David




Coming from the other side of things, haven't been at it too long only 35 years, and being known for my good work I can only say is the customers are by far what causes good craftsmen to leave and do something else... Just something to think about, but I doubt you will. You're all for the most part cheap to a fault, to the point that it's not worth the effort to bid on 80% of the jobs. It's a vicious cycle and the customer is where the problem originates. Yes I could do it for cheaper but the hell why should I. Why should I live on poverty wages so you can be happy and brag to your friends that you got such a good job at such a cheap price. You want it cheap so you get the hacks who do it cheap... And then there's the armchair experts... If you're so knowledgable and good at it then do it your bloody self. Oh that's right, when it comes to actually doing anything, you're work is complete crap - seen it a thousand times. I've had to bite my tongue hard and not say what I really thought of their work when they proudly boast about it to me - absolute garbage. You got what you paid for so quit your complaining.

Lee Schierer
09-06-2015, 8:31 PM
Boy oh boy, I wish I lived in California. I give customers a 15 minute window and am never late. If anything comes up, they get a call "before" to let them know, and that's rare.

David

Keep up the good work David. I'm sure you are plenty busy and get good referrals.

Mike Henderson
09-06-2015, 8:38 PM
Wow, I couldn't agree more Brian, spot on.

From cabinets to countertops to full gut jobs, I could write a book. I now enter the potential customers house and ask them are they looking for the cheapest price or to get it done right?
If they say cheapest, I politely say "Have a good day" and walk away. When they say, "no, but I still want a bid", I say "no thanks, you just want it to compare to the other guy to be sure that you got the lowest bid". I am easy going, believe it or not, but yes I actually say that and contrary to what most here "probably" think, I feel good about it and only respond that way based on experience.

And...when someone says that my bid was high, I say "no, my bid was fair, the other bid was too low and there's a reason for that".
Brian is right, I could do it for cheaper, but why should I?

Boy oh boy, I wish I lived in California. I give customers a 15 minute window and am never late. If anything comes up, they get a call "before" to let them know, and that's rare.

David
It took a while, but I have a number of tradespeople that I work with, all of whom do a good job. If I have a job for them, I don't even ask them how much. Just do it and tell me how much. I'm usually surprised at the price (low). I wouldn't do it for that amount.

When I work with a new person, I can be a pain in the tush to them. I know how to do most of the work and I want to make sure they're doing it right. The good people don't seem to mind, and I often learn something from them. Once I have confidence in their work, I leave them alone.

But if they don't seem to know their trade, or if they don't do neat work (my belief is that neat work is usually good work), I won't call them back. In extreme cases, I'll terminate the work and get someone else.

The knife cuts both ways. I want someone who is good at their work, who shows up on time, who does neat work, and who cleans up after the project. I return, I expect to pay a fair price - and I often get charged less than I expected.

Mike

[I'll just add that there are lots of good tradespeople here in CA. I really haven't run into many workers who do poor work. But then, I don't go looking for the cheapest price.]

David Cramer
09-06-2015, 8:54 PM
Honest to God Lee, I try my best as if it were my own.

And you're right, referrals are what kept me going in the tough times a few years back and keep me busy now. I won't turn away something as small as a bathroom vanity install as I believe doing it right is the most important thing, even small jobs, as they lead to their neighbor, brother, co-worker, cousin, etc...

I just did a job last month and found out that it was there cleaning lady that referred me...from 12 years earlier! I had done her kitchen and was blown away that she kept my card:)

Honestly, I just don't understand how someone is in business and can't return a call or show up when they say they will, let alone the next day! My wife laughs when family friends ask how many times I've done that and she says he'd never do that, and I haven't to this day.

To me, it doesn't matter if that's the norm, it's wrong and gives a lot of good contractors bad names.

David




Keep up the good work David. I'm sure you are plenty busy and get good referrals.

Brian Elfert
09-06-2015, 9:56 PM
As a customer I don't care if a contractor can't make it one day as long as the contractors lets the customer know they won't be coming. Life happens and people get sick, or their kids get sick or whatever. I would prefer not to have a sick contractor in my house, but I also know plenty work sick because they don't get paid if not working.

The contractor that remodeled my house happened to be the low bid, but he also had good references from a retired contractor and he just seemed like he would do a good job. The house was vacant during the remodel so he didn't tell me what days he was working on the house unless I was meeting him for something. Most of the time on the project was waiting on windows and siding that had to be ordered. The project took 2 1/2 months and I don't know that the contractor worked more than half a month on it. He had some other projects going that also had to be done before winter. (I knew in advance that materials would take quite a while to come in.)

Ruperto Mendiones
09-06-2015, 11:20 PM
Strange… I was reading this thread when up came an ad for kitchen vent hoods.

David Cramer
09-06-2015, 11:49 PM
Exactly, that's what I was saying Brian:):):)

Respectfully, I don't know anyone, except the desperate, who would "want" a contractor in their house if they were sick...that's a given:)

The problem seems to be that regardless of what the reason, sick or not, they don't call. I hear this often, quite often and I'm in Michigan, not a booming place right now regardless of what the news does or doesn't say. I've gone on estimates for full kitchens and got the job because the other contractors never showed up or "called" to say that they would have to reschedule. This is very common in the business, and shouldn't be. If you got a good one, hand on to that contractor as there are a lot of bad ones out there. Congrats on your job going smoothly with no hiccups, as that's a good thing too:)




As a customer I don't care if a contractor can't make it one day as long as the contractors lets the customer know they won't be coming. Life happens and people get sick, or their kids get sick or whatever. I would prefer not to have a sick contractor in my house, but I also know plenty work sick because they don't get paid if not working.

The contractor that remodeled my house happened to be the low bid, but he also had good references from a retired contractor and he just seemed like he would do a good job. The house was vacant during the remodel so he didn't tell me what days he was working on the house unless I was meeting him for something. Most of the time on the project was waiting on windows and siding that had to be ordered. The project took 2 1/2 months and I don't know that the contractor worked more than half a month on it. He had some other projects going that also had to be done before winter. (I knew in advance that materials would take quite a while to come in.)

Brian Ashton
09-07-2015, 7:37 AM
This vicious cycle of poor workmanship and unreliability has its roots in customers that are cheap and people that get into the trades that are simply stupid. Customers demand ridiculously cheap prices and stupid tradies drop their prices to the point where everyone can barely break even - if at all. I've had the pleasure of working in 4 countries as a carpenter/joiner/furniture maker: Cananda, USA, England and Australia. Canada was the best of of the bunch. It seemed that even the customer knew the unwritten rule of get 3 quotes and take the middle one and they always wanted quality and understood what that meant. USA was also good but customers were getting frugal. England was blessed with excellent and challenging work and great people to work with and for but eastern europeans were killing the industry - willing to work for 8 pound/hour when 12 is about the minimum to get by. Their work was crap but the builder was willing to keep using them. Australia broke me. They took cheap and underhanded tactics to a level I've never seen before and the tradies are stupid beyond belief. Customers get as many quotes as possible then play the lowest three off on each other till ones left standing and then do it themselves. Tradies spend all their time trying to find ways of screwing the customer by looking for loop holes when bidding on contracts, using the worst material or doing real dodgy work, or deliberately writing up contracts that will end up with massive variations needed at extortion level costs. TBH anyone in this day and age that wants to go into the trades, other than electrician or plumber, is stupid.

Well maybe not quite but anyone that wants to be a furniture maker better marry someone that makes a decent living cause you're not going to. You'll be very satisfied in what you do for a living but dirt poor. Carpenters, great work but have an exit plan by the time you hit your late thirties. Cabinet makers, you're a lost cause - worst trade there is. Worst conditions, worst pay.

And to those that say they can't find a good tradie... I've had a few trades in over the years and to be honest I've not had any that I wouldn't call back. Maybe I've been lucky maybe it's cause I make clear I'm paying a fair price for fair work and I'm not shopping, right from the start and let them get on with it. For some reason I get good service. In 35 years I can only remember one bad apple, a drug addicted alcoholic roofer, but aren't all roofers on something. Even he did a good job. Just had to make sure I didn't pay him upfront

There's those that complain about tradies that don't show or are late... That happens in all industries unfortunately. But I will admit when I've phone up and said I'm running late the customers were always appreciative and I rarely got any stain for it. When I was transitioning out of the trades and didn't really want the work I simply told people I might get to it in 2 days or I might get to it in 2 years - I don't promise anything. For some reason it seemed to make the customer want me more. Go figure.

Dennis Peacock
09-07-2015, 10:18 AM
Good post Brian..!!!!!

Julie Moriarty
09-07-2015, 11:08 AM
Brian, I saw the very same thing happen between commercial contractors when I was estimating in the late 90's. I knew cutthroat bidding was common in residential work because the level of skill and knowledge required wasn't as high as commercial work. And for a while commercial work hadn't been infected by price cutting that killed profits. Then it happened. General contractors (GC) started taking bids from little Ma & Pa shops in order to get their commercial subs to drop their prices. I saw gross profits drop down to 2-3%. That effectively is a loss on the books. I remember one GC project manager (PM) telling me he was worried the trend would never reverse and solid, reputable companies would disappear.

That brought about a new market where quality had to be sacrificed in order to survive. Sub contractors pushed their workers harder. The quality suffered. Customers complained. In the end, who won? The builders and GCs.

Years after I got out of that rat race, I ran across that same GC PM I used to work with. He told me, in so many words, when the little shops came into the picture, they (the GC) made more money than they had ever made. I remembered him pressuring me to drop my prices back then, crying poor mouth, and I did a little simmer.

About 8 years earlier, I was talking with an engineer on another project. He told me there was a time engineers used to run companies. "Quality was the prime objective." Then he said accountants came in and showed how quick profits could be made by cutting costs. Soon accountants began to run the companies and what we now know as the Greedy 80's was ushered in. Today I still see that the bottom line is more important than quality, until customers begin to walk away.

When you put price as your only criteria, you get what you pay for.