cross grain joinery help

[ronald mccormack]

I was hoping someone could help me out with a problem i'm having. I understand the "Laws" of wood movment pretty well
but im stuck on this one. Im building a series of jewelry boxes that because of the design the best oriention for the top front and sided is such that the grain runs front to back. basicly i made a board from maple/walnut/maple/walnut/maple
with the walnut being 3/4" strip. then i cut the lid back and front from this board so the stripes wrap around the box.
on the sides the grain is runing front to back so you see the end grain when looking at the front. my question is: if i cut a mortise and tenon joint will this be sufficent to hold it together. the tenon would be short grain in this instance. plus it would be cross grain construction, but the box is only 8x 12. has anyone done anything like this before?

[Kent A Bathurst]

what does the back look like? same as the front?

[glenn bradley]

A quick pic to clarify maybe? What are you 'holding' with the M&T?

[Pat Barry]

I think it will work OK but if the box is deep it will become stressful due to the cross-grain situation. In that case the joint between sides and front and back could be treated like a breadboard end to allow the sides to change seasonally without complete restraint

[lowell holmes]

Might I suggest you build a prototype to see how it falls out. You probably can overcome any flaws that crop up.

[Brian Holcombe]

The most I would lock in would be about 4", beyond that I think you'll have issues.

[ronald mccormack]

here is an image that i hope clarifys what im asking. I was wondering if cutting a tenon into the edge of a board would woork being that
its all short grain. also the walnut your seeing is endgrain front.
well im having trouble getting the pic to upload, ill try again later.

[ronald mccormack]

320752

Alright heres the pic. i need to join the cherry front to the walnut side. Im just not sure if this Violates the rules and if so to what degree. Also if it maters the lid will be fit in between the walnut sides. I can see that the expansion is across the board but the fron lid and back are all oriented the same so it seems like it wouldnt matter.

[Brian Holcombe]

Frame and panel would do better for you IMO, there are modern varieties of such a thing. The issue with this is not that it will self destruct over time, because it's such a small difference, but two of the sides are not going to be flush pretty much all of the time.

[Pat Barry]

The overlap is opposite what I was thinking but either way, given the depth of the box is not all too much I don't see an issue with the M&T approach. Frankly, even dowels would work for this - just would not want to see a butt joint glued only.

[ronald mccormack]

brian do you mean that the sides wont be flush with the lid due to exspansion of the sides up and down? I was planing on sloping the lid toward the front and then cutting the front and lid with somekind of miter so that when the box is closed you wont see the endgrain. the lid will be inset so that the walnut sides capture the lid, ill probably use a hidden pin for the hinge. with this being the case, how much of a difference can i expect? the sides are going to be somewhere around 3.5 in the back sloping down 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 at the front. doesnt seem like i should expect to much movement from something that small. really i was just kindof worried about cutting a tenon in the side of a board like that. Ive never heard of that before and i tried searching the internet but found nothing.

[Robert Engel]

I don't think you'll get enough movement across this width of wood to be a big concern.
1/16 gap on each end out to be adequate.
Take into consideration the environment where building box. If you think it will shrink make the top to side gap less then 1/16.

Plus, since the front and back grain is same dim as top, you would expect them all to move together, no?

[Brian Holcombe]

brian do you mean that the sides wont be flush with the lid due to exspansion of the sides up and down? I was planing on sloping the lid toward the front and then cutting the front and lid with somekind of miter so that when the box is closed you wont see the endgrain. the lid will be inset so that the walnut sides capture the lid, ill probably use a hidden pin for the hinge. with this being the case, how much of a difference can i expect? the sides are going to be somewhere around 3.5 in the back sloping down 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 at the front. doesnt seem like i should expect to much movement from something that small. really i was just kindof worried about cutting a tenon in the side of a board like that. Ive never heard of that before and i tried searching the internet but found nothing.

Here are some thoughts on how to do this;

Run all the sides with the long grain running around the box you will be able to make either mitered corners or mortised corners. However if you decide to build it with mortised corners you need to allow enough short grain after the mortise so that it does not break out in the cut or in use.

- What do you have planned for a bottom?

If the top is the solitary piece of wood then you can orient the top in the direction that you have it, but you'll have to use a type of hinge that allows some expansion/contraction of the top and build the lip with enough clearance at those sides that it can go through the seasons without binding.

[Prashun Patel]

Ronald-
Here's some out-of-the-box ;) thinking:

Scrap the walnut and use cherry for the side, vertically. IMHO, it'll solve your movement concern.

As an unsolicited (IMHO) aside, it'll look better. Same color, same orientation, no end grain visible from the front.

I have so many cherry cut offs if you want me to send them to you I'm happy to. LMK
Prashun

[ronald mccormack]

thanks for the offer prashun but i have plenty of cherry, and other wood as well. dont we all. I like the contrast of the walnut sides, I almost never use one wood throughout, especially on boxes where im trying to get maximum punch if you will. Also i like the end grain showing on the sides on a box like this, ive made several other in a similar style, however the front, back and lid were all oriented as you would expect for a M&T.

brian, the bottom will be either ply in a groove or a poplar floating in a grove cut all round. For the lid i was probaly going to do a hidden pin hinge, you know drilled hole blid hole on the sides and then put the pin in when gluing up.

[Brian Holcombe]

That will work! Just make sure to leave a slight gap between the top and sides….it's humid now so it should shrink from here (i'm in NJ) through the winter. Assuming your humid/dry times are the same.

[Lee Schierer]

If you don't want to see the end grain of the sides it would be acceptable to make a tenon on the side and set it in a mortise in the front. This is no different than any mortise and tenon joint. If the sides of the box are higher than about 4 inches, then make two tenons on each end of the sides and two mortises in the front and rear.

I think you will have more issues with the top curling than you will with the side joints failing.