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Matt Meiser
08-23-2005, 10:06 PM
I'm getting ready to take the plunge on a monitored security system for my shop. I'm confused on motion and fire detection. I'm wondering what others have done in their shops.

First, on fire detection, they said not to put in smoke detectors but to use heat detectors instead. The reasoning is that the smoke detectors are photoelectric and the dust will mess them up.

Second, I'm getting mixed messages about whether or not the motion detectors will work reliably. The storage area of my shop is unheated and the main are is heated only some of the time. The detectors seem to be rated to 14F or -4F (harder to find) Some installers/retailers say it will be fine, others say no. I did find one by Bosch which works to -20F supposedly and its pretty inexpensive.

Cecil Arnold
08-23-2005, 11:12 PM
Matt, I agree that smoke detectors might not function well in a wood shop, even though they are the best of the options you have. If you wanted to adhere to a rigid maintainance schedule you could consider "products of combustion" type detectors, however you would have to chean and test them almost monthly to isure that they don't get chocked up with dust. Of the remaining detector types, I would recommend a "rate of rise" detector over one that goes off at a set temp.

While I don't know a lot about motion detectors, I would think that any IR type detector would be able to detect a 98 degree body against most backgrounds.

Rich Konopka
08-24-2005, 7:29 AM
Matt,

I had a new system (house, garage, shed) put in a few months back and I went with the heat seeker. It works real well and is also designed not to be triggered by the dog.
My shop is an unheated basement. I also had a wireless receiver installed for my shed which is protected using wireless sensors. I paid under a 1,000 bucks with the system being monitored for 17/month. I went with a local small time installer who is a retired cop and saved a bundle. ADT quoted me $2500 and 45/month.

Matt Meiser
08-24-2005, 7:34 AM
Rich, did they do a motion detector in your shed? If so, have you gone though winter with it yet? Any problems?

One thing I think I discovered last night is that some of the temperature ratings are for UL-Listed applications. The sensors sometimes have a wider range of operation, just not for UL-listed applications (and home systems are not.)

Cecil, the heat detectors I'm looking at do have rate-of-rise as well. They are suprisingly cheap.

Rich Konopka
08-24-2005, 7:39 AM
Rich, did they do a motion detector in your shed? If so, have you gone though winter with it yet? Any problems?

One thing I think I discovered last night is that some of the temperature ratings are for UL-Listed applications. The sensors sometimes have a wider range of operation, just not for UL-listed applications (and home systems are not.)

Cecil, the heat detectors I'm looking at do have rate-of-rise as well. They are suprisingly cheap.

No. just door and window sensors. Nothing to important in there other than yard equipment and a little wood. It sounds to me like you need to get a propane heater in your shop to take the cold edge out of your shop.:confused:

Matt Meiser
08-24-2005, 7:51 AM
It sounds to me like you need to get a propane heater in your shop to take the cold edge out of your shop.:confused:

I do, but if I'm not going to be out there for a week or so I shut it off. Also the storage area isn't insulated. :(

Ed Breen
08-24-2005, 6:35 PM
Matt,

My shop is free standing about 75 yards behind the house. I have one door detector and two motion detectors (30x50). Evidently theives now don't kick in the door they use a chain saw and just cut through the walls.
I have a telephone line and the whole thing cost less than $750 with $10. per month monitoring.
ED:rolleyes:

Don Baer
08-24-2005, 6:41 PM
My motion detector.....:D

Vaughn McMillan
08-24-2005, 6:56 PM
My motion detector.....:D
I was thinking the same thing. I've got a pair of detectors. That way when one is sleeping, the other is still on-line. ;)

- Vaughn

Matt Meiser
08-24-2005, 8:13 PM
Problem with much current motion detector is that he'll mostly just sniff you to death.

Matt Meiser
08-24-2005, 8:16 PM
Evidently theives now don't kick in the door they use a chain saw and just cut through the walls.

I was told the same thing. I've heard they like the cordless sawzalls too.

Jim Hager
08-26-2005, 10:00 AM
Matt, I have had monitored motion detectors in my shop now for quite a while. We sold our place 3 years ago and built a new one and I moved the security system. I have mine fixed up in two zones, one for the house and one for the shop. I have two motion detectors in the shop as well as two door sensors. I have been through several winters with mine and have had no problems. Durn mouse climbing on a suspended extension cord (made it swing) set mine off one night about 3 a.m. and woke me up from a sound sleep. :eek: I went to the shop to investigate with my trusty booger gun only to find the extension cord swinging back and forth from the trusses above. I changed my shorts and went back to bed.:mad:


I have been pretty well satisfied with it other than that incident.:rolleyes:

Dale Thompson
09-01-2005, 8:57 PM
Matt,
Much of the information that you have already received is worthy of consideration. I've been in the fire technology business for about forty years. :o I'm embarrassed to say that there is no perfect solution to any application. Compromise (and insurance) are your best protection.

This is my opinion: I would NEVER use a heat detector in my house or in my shop! Salesmen who sell heat detectors for residential protection should be, in my humble and politically-correct opinion, SHOT! 85-90% of people who die in fires die from smoke inhalation and 80% of THOSE die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Also, a rate-of-rise detector, while having certain advantageous industrial applications, is a heat detector. I don't see a small WWing shop as being one of those applications.

NFPA recommends that the rating of your heat detector be at least 50 deg. higher than the maximum ambient temperature that you can expect in your application. In a wood shop, open flames of ANY type, unless you are actually in the shop, will probably result in a total loss due to the fire damage and the water from the local FD. I hope that you already have an ABC UL "Listed" Hand Portable extinguisher in your shop! :)

DON'T let anyone sell you a detector that has not been RATED AND LISTED by UL. I disagree with a LOT of their positions but they are, so to speak, the "only kid on the block" when it comes to reasonably accurate fire protection equipment.

Although there are several designs of smoke detectors (photoelectric, ionization, cloud-chamber, etc), your vendor gave you the best of the bunch. Photoelectric is more effective in detecting "smoldering" fires generating "lighter" smoke (as opposed to "black" smoke). Ionization detectors are better for "flaming" fires with darker smoke.

It IS true that you will have to vacuum the detectors on a periodic basis. Photoelectric smoke detectors are known as "light scattering" units. If they are clogged with dust, they will not respond correctly.

Motion detectors may give you some "false" alarms for reasons, and others, already mentioned. But, if it is a realistic problem in your area, you would be well advised to install them. I don't have that problem up here in the northwoods of Wisconsin. We are all so poor that we have nothing worth stealing from each other. :D If I DID have the problem, however, I would install a 7' Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake in my shop. :cool: DEEP lakes and DEEP woods make incredible depositories into which we can scrape the "scum" from our boots! :cool: :) :)

In conclusion, even after close to forty years as a fire protection engineer, I still believe that a barking dog is the best fire and intrusion detector that you can get. :o I should have been a better engineer!! :(

Dale T.

Matt Meiser
09-02-2005, 1:16 PM
Dale, I wish you had posted a little sooner. I received all my equipment yesterday. I went with two 135 degree heat sensors with rate-of-rise for the shop. The house will get some smoke detectors wired to the alarm system in addition to the existing 110V system.

Dale Thompson
09-02-2005, 7:51 PM
Dale, I wish you had posted a little sooner. I received all my equipment yesterday. I went with two 135 degree heat sensors with rate-of-rise for the shop. The house will get some smoke detectors wired to the alarm system in addition to the existing 110V system.

Matt,
Is there a chance that your vendor will take back the heat detectors? It would be WELL worth it even if there is a small restocking charge. As a matter of fact, there should be NO restocking charge because the vendor, if he was familiar with your application, should have known better. We pay "professionals" to be "professional". If I were you, I would REALLY draw a "line in the sand" on this one. :( These people are in the business of saving lives and property. They deserve to make a profit but that profit should come with a degree of expertise!!

At worst, you should be able to add a couple of smoke detectors to your system. On the other hand, however, I don't see ANY reason why you should have to invest the extra money.

Admittedly, most smoke detectors and heat detectors are what we call "spot detectors". The closer that they are located to the hazard, the quicker they will respond. Smoke detectors, however, will detect fires in their smoldering stage. Heat detectors can't do this and must wait for the heat of the fire to reach them. By then it is usually too late. :eek:

With VERY few exceptions, heat detectors are used in industrial and commercial (i.e. Restaurant kitchen hoods and ducts) applications. They are invariably connected to automatic suppression systems such as sprinkler systems, Carbon Dioxide systems, Dry Chemical systems, "Clean Agent" systems, etc. :)

As I ranted previously, heat detectors installed in a residence will result in people dying. Heat detectors installed in an unoccupied shop will result in a total loss and the resulting increase in your insurance rates. You can be pretty much assured that an alarm signal from the heat detectors in your shop will mean that you will be building a new shop! :mad:

If your vendor would like a detailed seminar on the requirements of NFPA 72, I would be glad to oblige him/her. I've done them nationally for a number of years. It could be on my nickel or his/hers! :rolleyes:

The only problem. I will be on vacation from Sept. 7 to Sept 23.

By the way, who is doing your installation? Is it you or your vendor? There are specific rules on that subject also! Make SURE that they are followed! :)

MAN!! Why do I get so wound up on this stuff? Matt, I don't even KNOW you. For all I know, you may be a serial killer and your shop may be comprised of a bent screwdriver and an empty roll of duct tape. In that event, I would recommend what the insurance companies did MANY years ago, namely: A heat detector comprised of a euctectic metal (solder) releasing device attached to a bottle filled with Carbon Tetrachloride. The Carbon Tet would put out a small fire but the vapors would be fatal. :eek:

Maybe I get wound up because fire tech has been my life and I get rather upset over folks who sell products out the the trunks of their cars without knowing, or caring, the least bit about the lives and property of their customers. Just a thought from an old dinosaur! ;) :)

Dale T.

Matt Meiser
09-02-2005, 9:15 PM
I'm doing the installation myself, but installing virtually the same system recommended by one of the two pros I had quote the system. The vendor is Lufkin Security, but frankly I'm mostly going of the pros' recommendations. I will take another serious look at the smoke detectors. I only paid $10 each for the heat detectors, so its probably not worth shipping them back.

Matt Meiser
09-06-2005, 12:09 PM
Dale, while researching the smoke detectors over the weekend, I discovered that the ones I am able to find are only rated down to 32 degrees. The main part of my shop occasionally dips below that if I'm not going to be working out there for a week or so in the winter and shut off the heat. The storage area is uninsulated and spends most of the winter below freezing. These are the two areas I bought heat detectors for. The house will be (and was planned for) smoke detectors, which will be installed in addition to the existing 120V smoke detector system.

Andy London
09-06-2005, 1:49 PM
Matt,

One of the four companies I manage is a monitoring station, another I manage sells security equipment to the companies that install the systems in your home or business.

We sell Ademco, Rokonet and DSC motions, I only use motions in my shop, I am not a believer in contacts as they are too easy to get around and still break in. I can only speak to the products we sell, the cold will not effect them at all.

I have mine hooked to fire detectors also along with a DVR and three camera's with infered that are activated with motion, in the pitch black the recorded image looks crystal clear.

If you have any questions, I don't drop by this forum a lot, just email me.

Andy

Dale Thompson
09-06-2005, 8:42 PM
Dale, while researching the smoke detectors over the weekend, I discovered that the ones I am able to find are only rated down to 32 degrees. The main part of my shop occasionally dips below that if I'm not going to be working out there for a week or so in the winter and shut off the heat. The storage area is uninsulated and spends most of the winter below freezing. These are the two areas I bought heat detectors for. The house will be (and was planned for) smoke detectors, which will be installed in addition to the existing 120V smoke detector system.


Matt,
Kudos on the last sentence! :) The answer to the 32 degree question is whether or not the detectors will be hard wired to 120v or operate strictly from a battery source. The battery thing is what creates the 32 degree rating. If a photoelectric smoke detector is supplied with 120v, either as a primary power source or a backup source, you should not have a problem. The light beam in the detector will be sustained by the 120v power and the "scattering" effect is a fact of physics.

Secondly, is your storage area REALLY a fire concern? What source of ignition do you have other than common wiring? Are the storage area and the shop connected? Do you do any finishing in the storage area where the potential for spontaneous combustion may exist? Is the potential for arson a concern? Etc., etc.

Matt, I'm going on vaction for the next couple of weeks so please excuse me if I don't respond for a while. One way or the other, we will give you some peace of mind in terms of protecting your shop! :cool: In the meantime, don't do anything reckless like opening a tank of Oxygen and a tank of Acetylene in your shop and then trying to light a candle for illumination. THAT would GUARANTEE you a cramped bunk on the Soyuz Space Station! :eek: :(

Dale T.

Harry Goodwin
09-06-2005, 8:53 PM
Matt: I have one motion detector that comes hot when on away setting on pad.
I have one door detector on the small regular entrance door and it is hot both Home and away. At night I keep it on home setting and the door is hot. The garage door I unplug the motor and if away also put a large hasp lock thru the track holes in the track so basically the door will move very little. Cut the emergency handle off the rope and leave the rope since a wire will slip betweeln the particians and can pull the release. If the lock is in the track it's still safe. Harry

Matt Meiser
09-07-2005, 7:52 AM
Dale -- have a good vacation. The storage are is where I keep my lumber and my tractor. They are part of the same building--just a partition wall between them. The main reason for any detection in the storage are is the tractor, which is probably a low risk. I also run a dehumidifier in there for most of the spring as that area has a dirt floor. All the detectors I've seen for use with the alarm panel are powered from the panel whose battery will be in the house so I'm not sure why the 32 degree rating.

Harry -- that's a good idea I hadn't thought of. The outlet for my opener is on a switch and I leave it off unless I need to open the door. I also keep the sliding latch locked, but putting a lock on the door would prevent someone from opening it to get stuff out even if they got inside.

Matt Meiser
09-15-2005, 3:19 PM
As an update to this thread, I unfortunately have to recommend against dealing with one of the vendors I used, HomeSecurityStore.com. I ordered a couple items from them and paid a hefty fee for overnight delivery so I could install them over labor day weekend. One of the items was bad and I wasted several hours attempting to get it to work. They refused to cross ship a replacement the next week and I had to send it back at my cost. They finally received it Tuesday, but waited until today to send out the replacement, which they are doing by UPS ground. Hopefully I'll have a working module within 3 weeks of my original order. I spoke to a manager there today who sees nothing wrong with this and refused my request that they pick up the cost of UPS second day delivery which would get me a replacement by Monday.

So far I've had really good luck with a couple orders from Lufkin Security (http://www.lufkinsecurity.com) and would definitely recommend them. Their prices have generally been better as well.