How rough are Spyderco's on Atoma's?

[Joe Tilson]

I would like to flatten the new Spyderco ceramics I bought about three months or so ago. I understand Atoma's (just purchased) are good for this. Any advise will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe

[Harold Burrell]

I am wondering this too. I will be watching this thread. :)

[Mike Brady]

The only way to flatten a stone of any kind is with something harder and flatter. Spyderco ceramic stones might be about the hardest out there and are notoriously hard to flatten since they typically don't come flat out of the box. It sounds like you purchased the Atoma stones expressly for this purpose, which sounds like an expensive solution even if it works. A Dia-Flat plate from DMT is made for flattening stones and would be a fraction of the investment. The DMT would work on your Spydercos. My last question is why are you working with two different new sets of sharpening media? Why not just pick one and run with it? Its sounds like you are second-guessing yourself.

[Harold Burrell]

It sounds like you purchased the Atoma stones expressly for this purpose, which sounds like an expensive solution even if it works. A Dia-Flat plate from DMT is made for flattening stones and would be a fraction of the investment.

Huh? What???

http://www.amazon.com/DMT-Diamond-Machining-Technology-DIAFLAT/dp/B005FUHTDG

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_462_464&products_id=1194

[Mike Brady]

Did you read my post? Are the Atoma plates designed for flattening other sharpening media? I suggest that if they are just diamond plates like the others out there that the Spydercos will just chew them up an spit them out. Why should he invest more money in the ceramics that should have been come flat when he bought them? Tell me again why the Spyderco stones were selected in the first flace. Was it because they don't need flattening? I will have to admit that cost does not appear to be part of this poster's equation, at which point, I'm out.

[ken hatch]

I would hate to just "pick one" sharpening medium and be limited to using it. Maybe I have sharpening round heels because I have and use oil stones, waterstones, Shapton, Spyderco, DMT, EZLap, and different strops with and without different compounds. I find some stones feel better and work better with different irons and strops. While all methods will work, some will work better on some irons. It all depends on the iron you are sharpening.

I've used the DMT lapping plate to flatten the Spyderco stones, it is not fast but I can not tell any difference in the DMT stone afterwards. I expect it would be the same with the Atoma stones. My Shapton diamond lapping plate warns do not use on grits less than 1000 but that shouldn't apply to either of the Spydercos.

ken

[Mike Holbrook]

I have used Spyderco triangular stones for decades without dishing them. I bought 2x8 Spydercos more recently. I am surprised to find that people think they need to be flattened. The newer ones I have have a little grinding pattern in their tops but I have not found that to be an issue. It might even help. I believe my DMT lapping plate is something like 120 grit. I'm not sure I would use something that coarse on the relatively fine grit Spydercos.

[Joe Tilson]

Mike B.
As a matter of fact I am second guessing myself and cost does mean something.
The med Spyderco I got was raised in the center somewhat.
I just wanted to flatten it a little. the fine and ultra fine are ok.
Your answer gave me just what was needed to make a decision before I ruin some very expensive sharpening plates.

Mike H.,
You are correct as to what I was thinking as well.
Thank you for your info.
The grinding pattern did fool me some.

Harold,
This is why we like the Creek so much isn't it?
Thanks for your help as well.
Joe

[Brian Holcombe]

Did you read my post? Are the Atoma plates designed for flattening other sharpening media? I suggest that if they are just diamond plates like the others out there that the Spydercos will just chew them up an spit them out. Why should he invest more money in the ceramics that should have been come flat when he bought them? Tell me again why the Spyderco stones were selected in the first flace. Was it because they don't need flattening? I will have to admit that cost does not appear to be part of this poster's equation, at which point, I'm out.

They are for flattening water stones, not sure about these ceramics.

[Joe Tilson]

Hey Brian,
It's just like your avatar says,"bumbling forward into the unknown."
I had to ask the question.
Water stones it is, yes I have those too. To me it's just like What Ken said.
There are uses for all of them in my book.
Thank you.
By the way, I got some of our inheritance from our mother's estate.
That's the only way I could be able to purchase the Atomas.

[Reinis Kanders]

I have used DMT cheaper 2x6 honeycomb pattern stones to mess with my spydercos. Worked pretty well. DMT xxcoarse 3x8 diasharp also worked well. DMT xxfine duosharp on the other hand got destroyed by spyderco UF, but it was kind of messed up before that.
My 3x8 spyderco has a definite hollow lengthwise, I decided to keep it that way until I have a quick way of fixing it, maybe with lose diamonds.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hey Brian,
It's just like your avatar says,"bumbling forward into the unknown."
I had to ask the question.
Water stones it is, yes I have those too. To me it's just like What Ken said.
There are uses for all of them in my book.
Thank you.
By the way, I got some of our inheritance from our mother's estate.
That's the only way I could be able to purchase the Atomas.

Japan-Tool is the least expensive place to buy them that I'm aware of. I bought a set, less the 600, along with a natural stone, and I like them a lot more than DMT. They don't stick to the stones as easily and the diamond surface is replaceable (albeit they are nearly as expensive as the one with the plate included).

[Allan Speers]

I bought an Atoma 400 to flatten my Spydercos, because several other experienced guys were very happy with this combination. I've only done a light flattening myself, on all three, but it worked well and I didn't notice any change near the end.

Ask me again in 5 years and maybe I'll sing a different tune, though, I have no idea.

I remember reading something about how there are two types of diamonds used in plates, and also a few ways of orienting those diamonds, and the Atoma was one of the "correct" combinations, for super-hard ceramic stones.

[ian maybury]

Some digging about just now regarding hardness suggests that the finest alumina ceramics (the hardest) are pretty tough, but seem still to be quite a long way short of diamond - see the chart about half way down: http://sharkdesigns.co.uk/bushcraft/bushcraft_articles_and_advice/SHARPENING/trend_sharpening_system.html Even the CBN used in sharpening wheels is quite a bit off diamond. There's an advertising video with discussion of the claims regarding differing types of diamond too.

It's not impossible given the differing types of diamond about and the relatively high cost of the DMT flattening plate, but i wouldn't be too surprised if the Atoma proved to be similar in terms of wear resistance. (it wouldn't be like the Japanese to use a less than optimum coating, and the price difference isn't necessarily down to quality - but somebody who knows please come in) Bear in mind too that softer materials sometimes show wear resistance much better than their low hardness might suggest - bronze is a case in point. (it sometimes wears more slowly than the mating hardened steel in bearings)

One issue to watch out for with the Atoma is that overdoing the pressure while working a hard surface can in the wrong circumstances pull most of the diamonds out to kill a plate in minutes. I destroyed an already worn old one when i tried to use it to flatten the stock (carborundum?) wheel on a Tormek - the copper underneath started to show through, and depressions were created so it was no longer flat. So i wouldn't lean overly hard on the ceramic while flattening it, and I'd use a lubricant - even if only water.

An Atoma wears out when used to flatten waterstones (admittedly after a lot of work), so it seems unlikely that it wouldn't to some minor degree (hopefully) wear when flattening ceramics...

[Joe Tilson]

I contacted Linda Mac. at Lee Valley. She informed me the Atoma's are for sharpening, lapping,and truing stones just like the catalog says. Oh wellllllll, so much for reading skills. Thanks folks for your replies. We have learned and are moving onward to knowledge.

[Brian Holcombe]

Joe, If they are a little harsh when they first arrive don't worry they die down a bit quickly.

[Joe Tilson]

They sure do. I was surprised how quickly they wear. Have been working on a Union firmer chisel, and they wear, but still do a great job. At least the #140 does, because it's the only one I have tried so far.
Thanks Brian.

[ian maybury]

I've never used a Spyderco, but suspect that you are barking up the right tree by setting out to establish a means to flatten them. They may not need doing so often, but it's pretty much inevitable that they must wear. The problem being that even very moderate hollowing has the potential to mess up a blade, especially if flattening the back of chisels, sharpening single bevel and the like...

[Matthew N. Masail]

I wouldn't call what happens with diamond plates 'wear', I'd say the break in. Because once the mellow out They will stay cutting that way for a very long time and will slowly mellow out more over the years

[Joe Tilson]

Thank you Ian.
That is the very reason I don't like water stones they are just to finicky for me.
To much flattening and such, but I do have to be honest, they do a very good job.

Just to let you folks know where I'm coming from;
I use sandpaper,oil stones,water stones, ceramic stones, and now Atoma plates.
I do not like hallow grinding, because I believe it weakens the metal.
I know there are those who use hallow grinding with great success, It's just a personal preference for me.
Yes, it does take longer to get an edge, but to me it's worth the effort.
I am retired so am not in a hurry. In other words, time means nothing and I love it.

Thanks to everyone for responding.
At least this wasn't a sharpening thread!:D

[ian maybury]

Depends a bit on what we mean by the terminology Matthew, and which stones we're talking of. I've as above had an Atoma 400 which most definitely wasn't abused reach a point after flattening waterstones very frequently while working up a big batch of chisels (i'm a compulsive flattener as there doesn't seem to be any other way keep waterstones flat), setting up a bunch of plane irons and doing lots of other stuff (including flattening machine brackets, and stoning off a set of cast iron planer tables after scraping) where it was cutting very slowly - although it might well have continued that way for quite some time.

As earlier it died when i abused it by trying to flatten the carborundum wheel on a Tormek - as a result of the diamonds pulling out of the bond to expose the copper underneath in some areas. It was no longer flat enough for sharpening in that state as there were depressions left in the surface.

The point though is that their life while excellent (and they seem to stay flat as they fade in normal use) it most definitely isn't infinite. The diamonds used on the cheap lapidary discs about these days even less so - they start out quite scratchy, but pretty quickly work down to a much less aggressive state. Which still cuts, but a lot more slowly. Suspect they are not the polycrystalline type of diamond...

I'm surmising, but based on the hardness information a ceramic stone does seem likely to hollow and need flattening - just very much more slowly than a waterstone. The price though may be that they are tough to flatten.
well.