Engraving on Wine Bottles

[Roy Sanders]

In the first place I recognize most of you are either wood, or vinyl experts. SO, does anyone engrave wine bottles? I want to do this as a fun hobby. I see youtube videos, most do not go into the process deeply enough.

I have a rotary with my laser engraver. I need to know what format to use, positive or negative. Then dimension settings. When I use the positive the graphic is huge, even when I set the screen picture down to 3 mm. And it the curvature of the bottle makes the photo look goofy.

So based on the above, any ideas what I am doing incorrectly?

Thank you

Roy:mad::eek:

[vic casware]

Hi Roy,
I keep meaning to engrave more wine bottles myself, on Epilog's website and others i'm sure
the sample club has some great glass samples including wine bottles and Glass Decanters
they look fantastic. I'm pretty sure even their settings and instructions will help you too.

[Roy Sanders]

Hi Vic

Thanks, I appreciate you suggestion. I will look on that website

Roy

[Dan Hintz]

Positive or negative should have no effect on the image size. Use a positive image for mostly clear bottles/liquids, use negative for darker bottles/liquids.

[Bernie Fraser]

Positive or negative should have no effect on the image size. Use a positive image for mostly clear bottles/liquids, use negative for darker bottles/liquids.


I think ink it will have an effect on actual image size Dan because if his image has a white background and he inverts it now he has the background of the image as black. Depending on his image he may need to ensure he starts with a clear background and maybe even add a contour around the image so that it is still defined if he inverts it. Can you post an example of the graphic Roy?. I have to head off to work soon but could have a quick look at it at the end of the day.

[David Somers]

Roy,

I havent played with glass at all yet. But, one thought I can give you. The reason a lot of folks here don't do much with glass is they have found that it is tricky and not too consistent for the effort, both in terms of the overall success of a piece, and for the quality of the engraving on any given piece. Instead they use the laser to cut a resist and then apply it to a piece and sandblast it. That may be more than you are ready to get into of course. And I don't mean to discourage you from playing with glass. I just wanted to point out why you dont see many using their lasers with glass for other than small runs and one off pieces to play with.

One way people do have some fun with glass though is mirrors. They will etch the back of a mirror to remove the reflective coating. Some folks seem to have a lot of fun with that. It is less common to see the front of the mirror engraved since the engraving will reflect in the back of the mirror and create a double image.

Have fun!

[Bill Cunningham]

If you're going to do wine bottles, test one of them first. A LOT of wine bottle etch poorly. I think it might be the glass compound used for coloured bottles. The clear ones seem to do ok. Also, Run n Buff work well on the ones that don't etch well.. I do a lot of glass, and some wine bottle don't do very well. The clear ones usually work the best..
Below are two vodka bottles (liquor bottles always do better) Also a dark wine bottle w/gold
320587320588320589

[Mark Sipes]

Oh my Bill, I think you were dreaming of your younger years when you wrote
Run n Buff I believe you meant Rub-n-Buff not Run in the Buff... although it might be an effective marketing technique.

HaHA.


.

[David Somers]

Hah! Mark...that sounds like a great name for a wine or beer label!! Bill....you interested in expanding into being a vintner or craft brewer?

[Bill Cunningham]

Darn autocorrect eh! I haven't run in the buff for years.. Did streak a flowershow once, and won a prize for the best dried up arrangment ;=)
And Yup, Rub N Buff it was!

[Dan Hintz]

I think ink it will have an effect on actual image size Dan because if his image has a white background and he inverts it now he has the background of the image as black.

Sorry, Bernie, but this has been discussed before in gory detail. Image compression algorithms rarely care whether they are compressing white or black. RLE-encoded images only care how many pixels in a row are one color, and DCT-encoded images only care about the average color for a block (and the same amount of bits will be used to code that average).

[Junior hall]

Very nice mr bill ... Where do you get your wine bottles from if not mind me asking... My guess would be any local bar am i right thanks

[Bernie Fraser]

Sorry, Bernie, but this has been discussed before in gory detail. Image compression algorithms rarely care whether they are compressing white or black. RLE-encoded images only care how many pixels in a row are one color, and DCT-encoded images only care about the average color for a block (and the same amount of bits will be used to code that average).


I agree with you Dan that the file size will not change if inverted or not. He says the graphic size changes ( not file size ) if he changes it to positive. If this is the case I would think it is likely that he is inverting an image with a background instead of a vector or monochrome bitmap with a transparent background. Easier if we could see the file he is having the issue with. If he is noticing a size change in the graphic there is a logical reason to why it is happening.

[Roy Sanders]

Hello All,

I am at home today, so I will dig the bottles out of the trash and take a pic to post. I did three trials the other day. I watched a video the other day and the presenter did something in didn't. He set his page up just to represent his bottle size. Width = bottle hight and length = circumference. then he placed his graphic on the page.

This is the graphic I am attempting to engrave during this learning curve. The goal is to put this type of graphic on the bottles my friend then turns into lamps.
320613
I use paint's cut lab to isolate just my friend and me, thus eliminating the back ground. I simply what the silhouette. the above is of course is the negative,
Roy

[Dan Hintz]

I agree with you Dan that the file size will not change if inverted or not. He says the graphic size changes ( not file size ) if he changes it to positive. If this is the case I would think it is likely that he is inverting an image with a background instead of a vector or monochrome bitmap with a transparent background. Easier if we could see the file he is having the issue with. If he is noticing a size change in the graphic there is a logical reason to why it is happening.

Gotcha, we're on the same page now. And with Roy's latest post, my inclination is he wasn't setting the page size appropriately and stretching the image to match.

Roy, if you make the image length the circumference of the bottle, the image will be wrapped around the ENTIRE bottle. Gnereally, you only want 1/2 to 1/3rd of the bottle to have an engraved image. Set your page size to the circumference, but the image itself should only take up about the first half to third of the page... the rest should be blank/white space. Don't resize the image to your circumference, resize it separately, or cut and paste the image to your properly-sized page after the fact.

[Roy Sanders]

gotcha thank you. Once i get through this learning curve and stop taking everything at face value i do think I will produce some nice work. I want you and all of the members who regularly post that I appreciate this forum. It really is helping me learn the art and science of laser work. I can read, I actually understand the words, the problem is the english i typically speak is not the same english as doing laser and corel draw.

It's all in the translation. This is where this group has offered me the most; you have helped me translate english.

Thank you

Roy

[Roy Sanders]

Hello Group

I realize that I am not anything more than beginner. I did not think I was learning disabled. I am stubborn so I am not quitting until I run out of wine bottles, my blazer throws craps, or death.

Here is what i did in CorelDraw. x6.

I took the diameter of a wine bottle = 2" multiplied by 3.14 = 6.28 which then is my page length and the width is 4"

Then I imported my pic and set the picture to 1/3 the page size.

Sent it to laser and the da$$m thing was trying to engrave from top to bottom and over halve the circumference ARRRRGGGGG

320762

[Dan Hintz]

I see two problems there...

First, what are the dimensions of your original image in pixels? What you're printing looks like an Atari 2600 character it is so pixelated. It should look that bad on the screen, too, which makes me think what you're setting it up for is NOT what it is REALLY being set up for. Show us a screenshot of your Corel screen just before you print it. I want to see the page extents and the view of the graphic itself as it rests on the page.

[Roy Sanders]

Ok here is that screen shot. I am glad i took it, didn't post it with the picture to keep things simple. Thank you for the time you are giving to my learning.

320794320795

My wish is that one of these two will help. I have searched for video tutorials on the set up and all I find is the laser piece. nothing about the software.

I have no idea how to offer this forum help, I am a Hospital Chaplain. What I have is THANK YOU.

Roy

[Dan Hintz]

320794320795

I thought as much... your page size is roughly 20mm x 19mm, less than an inch square (see far left of pic two). It's no surprise, then, that the image is being blown way out. Fix your page size first.

Second, even with the poor quality of the first pic, it looks like the image you have on the page is of extremely low quality/resolution. You will simply not get a good image with such a low-resolution pic.

The engravable area of a typical wine bottle is something like 160mm high and 220mm wide (assuming full circle around the bottle). If we assume (roughly) 1/3rd of that in both dimensions for the engraved pic, your page size would be (roughly) 160x220mm, and the image should be (roughly) 60mm square. For decent image quality at 200dpi, that pic needs to be around 500 pixels square (or higher).

NOTE: Image size (in pixels) is NOT the same as image resolution (measured in dpi)... a 500 pixel image printed at 200dpi will be 2.5" in size. A 500 pixel image printed at 100dpi will be 5" in size. Same picture, different engraving resolution. But your image needs to have sufficient pixels for the resolution you're trying to print at if you want to avoid a bunch of square blocks.

[Mike Clarke]

Check to see if you have something like 'Size to fit page' clicked in the print driver/output dialogue. Since it does not appear to be maintaining aspect ration look to see if something pertains to that setting as well.

[Dan Hintz]

Wait, am I reading that screen correctly? Let me get back to you on this one... I'm at work and don't have access to Corel... I may not be looking at the right spot for page size.

Sorry, it looks like what you have selected (the pic in the middle), that's 20x19mm, not the page.

Looking at the ruler, it looks like your page is 100mm wide (about 4"), so the dimensions of the page appear reasonable.

[Mike Clarke]

I am seeing the page size as 100mm wide. (4.0 inches roughly) I cant' make out the picture too well but it looks like the image fills all the height and width - which would not be respecting the proportions. My guess is the failure is in the output dialogue settings.

Dan, in Corel the page size would not show in the upper left - unless nothing is selected.
you would see the X & Y centers and image sizes of what is selected - at least in the standard setup.
I think I got that correct. Not in front of Corel either. In some programs just standing up throws me off & I have to sit to think correctly. Sad but true.

[Mike Clarke]

Roy,
May I suggest you break the problem down into smaller separate problems. Just output a 1" square and see if it works or what you need to do to get output size controllable. Test your image to work on something flat. When I encounter multiple problems I hate eating up the clock with a large file to test on.

I am off to work and I don't post from work. Good luck on it.

[Roy Sanders]

Thanks Dan,

I did the math and now attempting to get it to work. One responders suggested working it out on a flat surface first. Then the curved. The other piece that I didn't bring up is the focus distance. The bed is lowered all the way to the bottom, and the honeycomb is off. The rotary device plus the bottle is putting the distance closer that the 2.5 inch focus distance. I haven't measured, it looks like it is 1/8" closer than it 'should' be.

I find it amazing how energized I am to solve this problem. The wine bottle engraving is not my primary work. Making pens, is my primary. Yet because of this issue I am not willing to just stop and let it go. MR.FIX-IT addiction I guess. :rolleyes:

Thanks for lending me your brain

Roy

[Roy Sanders]

Hi Group

Good News! I am getting closer. I put in a piece of black acrylic and engraved the above rendering as a BMP instead of the CDR and it came out clear, smaller 1.5 x 2". So I put the rotary in and made some changes to the BMP re: sizing and it ran the same elongated piece of ---. Then I noticed that my 'fixture' (rotary) settings were off, diameter and circumference. There is also a check box that "auto adjusts.

By setting the correct diameter and unchecking that box allowed the laser to engrave closer to the photo. Now I need to tweak the photo to get the correct curve and gradient (pixels) so it will look clear.

did this make any sense?

Roy

[Jeff Body]

Hi Group

Good News! I am getting closer. I put in a piece of black acrylic and engraved the above rendering as a BMP instead of the CDR and it came out clear, smaller 1.5 x 2". So I put the rotary in and made some changes to the BMP re: sizing and it ran the same elongated piece of ---. Then I noticed that my 'fixture' (rotary) settings were off, diameter and circumference. There is also a check box that "auto adjusts.

By setting the correct diameter and unchecking that box allowed the laser to engrave closer to the photo. Now I need to tweak the photo to get the correct curve and gradient (pixels) so it will look clear.

did this make any sense?

Roy

Roy have you adjusted the rotary's circle pulse yet (that's what it's called in RDWorks)? I know i had to do this with mine.
Every stepper motor is slightly different. In the software you have to fine tune the pulse for a specific motor. You also have to take into count any pulley, gears.

When I want to use my rotary I have to first turn it on in the software so that it switches setting to my rotary motor. Since you're using a different motor then your Z or Y axis then you need to program in your different pulse width. Do do this I make 2 lines 25 mm apart. I then adjust the circle pulse in the software till I get 2 lines that are exactly 25mm apart on my glass.

Now that your circle pulse is set if you have a bottle that has a 3" diameter you take 3"x 3.14 = 9.42" circumference
So now you shouldn't need to make any adjustments to your image or graphic. If your pulse setting is correct and you have a Text that is 9" long it should engrave all the way around the bottle with .42" left.

[Roy Sanders]

Hi Jeff

I use LaserDRW. The only thing I can see that looks pulse is "step" the default is 2 mm. There is so much more to this than 'plug n play.' I am old enough to remember the DOS days. I had just learned to use DOS and windows 3.1 came around. From that time on the need to understand settings became less and less, for me any way. Now I have some expectation that all I need to do is install and everything is done, BOOM. this laser stuff takes me back to that time.

[Pete Bejmuk]

Glass is tricky to fully engrave because it doesn't technically engrave - it just melts it at a very small scale and causes it to microfracture. Spalling (flaking) is a common problem. Like crystal, glass has varying types of quality, and the "high end" glass usually has a high content of metals that absorbs the heat in funky ways.

At my work, we generally mask all our glass with paper "transfer" tape, laser through the tape, then use the taped "stencil" to sandblast. Skips a step with having to make pricey stencil exposure film.

When lasering, Wine bottles have to be perfectly straight or cylindrical because any taper - even with a rotary tool being lifted at one end - tends to cause focus problems. Even if you don't mask the glass for sandblasting, if you're using an Epilog style rotary tool (with flywheels instead of a central chuck like the ULS rotarys) make sure the wheels have something to grip onto - bare glass tends to slip fairly often, resulting in "squished" looking graphics because the wheels can't properly rotate the object being engraved. I use a strip of normal masking tape on both ends of the bottle where it contacts the wheels so they have something better to grip onto.

You only get one pass on a rotary tool, because I can never get it to perfectly line up for multiple passes. So give it a little more power than you would a normal flat piece of glass.

ULS rotary tools require you to (or at least the older one I have on my ancient ULS) set the page height to the circumference of the glass, and you have to put the diameter of the glass into the driver. Epilog rotary tools figures everything out automatically based on the focal height of the item.

[Bill Cunningham]

Very nice mr bill ... Where do you get your wine bottles from if not mind me asking... My guess would be any local bar am i right thanks Sorry for the late response. I get wine bottles from my customers that want their bottles engraved. I not much of a drinker, so any bottles I collect are ones that have been left by friends and relatives. I usually experiment on any I find that might make a good customer sample. Or, I suppose I could hit up the wino in the alley..ha..